CNN - Obama to announce that Osama Bin Laden has been killed

[Scuzz]

I think this is good news but I don't really see it as monumental.  I don't think anyone believes we are suddenly going to recall our troops around the world who are fighting terrorists.  I don't think anyone believes we are going to scrap our "no fly" lists, or stop checking all the things we do.  Really while perhaps symbolically important I don't see this as really changing much.  Perhaps it will, that would be nice.

Sometimes symbolism is a good thing.......As long as he was alive muslim extremists could point to how he had screwed the US, and gotten away with it.

[rshetts2]

I'm 100% against the death penalty (war =/= criminal justice) , but I'm glad this was a military strike resulting in death rather than a prisoner capture.  Capturing Bin Ladin probably would have had unexpected diplomatic consequences and his subsequent trial (or military tribunal) would have become a circus.  Then the whole death penalty debate would have come up.  By making this an outright war-related military operation, we avoid all that. 

I hope we don't release the pictures - at least not for many years.  They're not going to do anything for us and may unduly inflame certain groups.  It also makes him a bit more of a martyr.  It's best to just let people's imaginations take over and to know that this shitbag is dead.

Its easy to say in hindsight but I really dont think there was ever any real intention to "capture" Bin Laden.  As you said the circus surrounding a capture would have been seriously bad.  Add in the fact that as long as he was alive and in custody, it would be almost a guarantee that terrorists would have taken serious hostages to trade for his release, I think that there was never an intention of capture.  And Im not talking about this particular mission, Im talking from day one.

The one message the US has sent on this to the terrorist above all else, is that no matter if it takes ten minutes or ten years, we will find you.  Thats why I am glad that they took him out instead of him dying of natural causes down the road, thumbing his nose at us to the grave.

[CeeKay]

they'll never show pics of what really happened, because it'd give away our secret weapon:

Spoiler for Hiden:

that's why there were reports of the mansion being on fire later on.

[Isgrimnur]

(I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn)

Instead, I give you Vir Cotto of Babylon 5.

[Teggy]

(I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn)

Instead, I give you Vir Cotto of Babylon 5.

Someone didn't read the rest of the thread. I'm not saying who, but his name rhymes with "misgrimnur".

[Harkonis]

(I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn)

Instead, I give you Vir Cotto of Babylon 5.

omfg SPOILERS!   

[Ridah]

Well, hopefully this acts as an impetus for Obama Co. to pull out of Afghanistan completely. Let's use those funds to rebuild our country instead and get things back on track for society.

[morlac]

they'll never show pics of what really happened, because it'd give away our secret weapon:

Spoiler for Hiden:

that's why there were reports of the mansion being on fire later on.

That is all kinds of awesome.   Ijust printed it in full color on photo glossy paper and put it in my office cube.  America?  Fuck Yeah!

[Ironrod]

Seeing pictures of throngs of people excited over the death of one man is surely going to throw fuel on the fire. Much like seeing a bunch of Muslims dancing in the streets when the two towers fell.

We've been discussing the same concerns.  There are inevitably plenty more waiting behind Bin Laden to continue terrorizing Western society.  While I am certainly pleased by the news (I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn), I worry that our celebrations will spur hastier, more anxious reactions from the terrorist community.  That worry is not to be mistaken for fear, but it would be naive to ignore very real concerns about terrorist retaliation.  

As if they've been holding back so far?

Terrorism's objective is to demoralize a population with fear and apprehension. This spontaneous outburst of joy is exactly the opposite of that. Yeah, another 10,000 Muslim boys probably picked up weapons for the first time to avenge their new martyr...but the many millions of jubilant Westerners make it a worthwhile trade.

[morlac]

I think this is good news but I don't really see it as monumental.  I don't think anyone believes we are suddenly going to recall our troops around the world who are fighting terrorists.  I don't think anyone believes we are going to scrap our "no fly" lists, or stop checking all the things we do.  Really while perhaps symbolically important I don't see this as really changing much.  Perhaps it will, that would be nice.

Sometimes symbolism is a good thing.......As long as he was alive muslim extremists could point to how he had screwed the US, and gotten away with it.

Agreed.  Sends a message too as somebody else mentioned.  No matter how long, no matter what country you are in, no matter what rock you want to hide under, we will find you and take you out.  

[PR_GMR]

Seeing pictures of throngs of people excited over the death of one man is surely going to throw fuel on the fire. Much like seeing a bunch of Muslims dancing in the streets when the two towers fell.

We've been discussing the same concerns.  There are inevitably plenty more waiting behind Bin Laden to continue terrorizing Western society.  While I am certainly pleased by the news (I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn), I worry that our celebrations will spur hastier, more anxious reactions from the terrorist community.  That worry is not to be mistaken for fear, but it would be naive to ignore very real concerns about terrorist retaliation.  

As if they've been holding back so far?

Terrorism's objective is to demoralize a population with fear and apprehension. This spontaneous outburst of joy is exactly the opposite of that. Yeah, another 10,000 Muslim boys probably picked up weapons for the first time to avenge their new martyr...but the many millions of jubilant Westerners make it a worthwhile trade.

And... Osama Bin Laden is perhaps the biggest symbol of Evil of our modern era. Evil was struck down. In my opinion, the cheering was appropriate.

[CeeKay]

We'll be holding try outs for the next big symbol of evil next Monday.  They'll be judged by Donald Trump, Carrottop and Paula Abdul.

[Isgrimnur]

(I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn)

Instead, I give you Vir Cotto of Babylon 5.

Someone didn't read the rest of the thread. I'm not saying who, but his name rhymes with "misgrimnur".

It's been a long night and day.  I'm occasionally going to screw one up.

[Scuzz]

Well, hopefully this acts as an impetus for Obama Co. to pull out of Afghanistan completely. Let's use those funds to rebuild our country instead and get things back on track for society.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that if I was you.....

[CeeKay]

Well, hopefully this acts as an impetus for Obama Co. to pull out of Afghanistan completely. Let's use those funds to rebuild our country instead and get things back on track for society.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that if I was you.....

hey now, let's not get hasty.  let's fully explore the benefits of him holding his breath 

[rshetts2]

(I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn)

Instead, I give you Vir Cotto of Babylon 5.

I must admit that is probably my favorite scene from Babylon 5.  Set up seasons earlier and then paid off in full.  Vir ftw!

[Gratch]

These are some pretty amazing details.

"For God and country - Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo."

[Purge]

Seeing pictures of throngs of people excited over the death of one man is surely going to throw fuel on the fire. Much like seeing a bunch of Muslims dancing in the streets when the two towers fell.

We've been discussing the same concerns.  There are inevitably plenty more waiting behind Bin Laden to continue terrorizing Western society.  While I am certainly pleased by the news (I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn), I worry that our celebrations will spur hastier, more anxious reactions from the terrorist community.  That worry is not to be mistaken for fear, but it would be naive to ignore very real concerns about terrorist retaliation.  

As if they've been holding back so far?

Terrorism's objective is to demoralize a population with fear and apprehension. This spontaneous outburst of joy is exactly the opposite of that. Yeah, another 10,000 Muslim boys probably picked up weapons for the first time to avenge their new martyr...but the many millions of jubilant Westerners make it a worthwhile trade.

And... Osama Bin Laden is perhaps the biggest symbol of Evil of our modern era. Evil was struck down. In my opinion, the cheering was appropriate.

I understand that sentiment, and I'm not going to argue opinions - I will share mine though.

Remember that Al Quaida forces are "rebel fighters" and had their own reasons to kill other (and themselves!) to attack the sleeping giant ... none of which were based on creed or color or religion alone, but on what they felt were wrongs they were righting. They too felt justified in celebrating in the streets. I find it hard to choke down celebration of the death of people.

I'm not saying his death was wrong, I'm not condemning the US for executing a military move to end Bin Laden, and once again, I do understand the sentiment.

As an outsider though, I see it as fresh kindling on an old fire that's been burning since the cold war. The perception of US foreign policy needs to be changed. This? It's not really a whooping and hollering event IMHO. There is a reparation that needs to bridge the gap between those groups who feel wronged by the US using them as military pawns in the cold war and then abandoning them. The culture clash is hard enough, but middle-east dabbling has gone on for so long and it's not something that's worked well.

People are people.

[Bullwinkle]

These are some pretty amazing details.

"For God and country - Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo."

I'm kinda blown away by the specifics of that report.

I have to say, I've been amused but extremely skeptical about Obama's involvement in this.  Seemed more like a "right president at the right time" kinda thing.  And there's still that, to be sure, but he was much more involved than I was assuming.

And I'm happy, sure, but nervous about what might come.  The USA! USA! chants that have been happening are certainly understandable, but, yeah, I'm wondering how others are going to take that.  It could certainly have a similar impact to watching folks over there cheer when our towers went down (and, for the record, I understand that taking down a bad man does not equal so many innocent lives lost, I'm just talking about impact). That comment about the last thing he saw were Americans who shot him (in the left eye...thanks, NBC!) could come off as very cold and brutal to the wrong folks (hell, maybe even some of the right folks.

Then again, apart from his own people, I'm not certain how beloved the Taliban is over there.

Again, not saying I don't understand the overjoyed reaction, or that I'm not happy.  But let me say this.  The first thing my eight year old said when I carefully mentioned this to her this morning was, "Does that mean the war is over?"  Her relief was palpable.  Sadly, I had to let her down.

[rshetts2]

One thing that may turn out to be quite valuable from this is the intelligence that they may have gathered during the operation.  While its easy to dwell on the negative fallout from this, if this was the main Taliban headquarters, then this may be the biggest step in eliminating the bulk of that organization.  Eliminating the head honcho is great and all but leaders get replaced all the time.  If they got solid intel that leads to the functional elimination of the Taliban, then we can deal a major blow to terrorism,  instead of a symbolic one.  Thats not to belittle the value of taking out Bin Laden, that was important but when its all said and done, the Taliban will go one without him.  So hopefully, in a way, the real mission is just beginning. 

[Ironrod]

Seeing pictures of throngs of people excited over the death of one man is surely going to throw fuel on the fire. Much like seeing a bunch of Muslims dancing in the streets when the two towers fell.

We've been discussing the same concerns.  There are inevitably plenty more waiting behind Bin Laden to continue terrorizing Western society.  While I am certainly pleased by the news (I'd personally like to see him displayed on a spike on the White House lawn), I worry that our celebrations will spur hastier, more anxious reactions from the terrorist community.  That worry is not to be mistaken for fear, but it would be naive to ignore very real concerns about terrorist retaliation.  

As if they've been holding back so far?

Terrorism's objective is to demoralize a population with fear and apprehension. This spontaneous outburst of joy is exactly the opposite of that. Yeah, another 10,000 Muslim boys probably picked up weapons for the first time to avenge their new martyr...but the many millions of jubilant Westerners make it a worthwhile trade.

And... Osama Bin Laden is perhaps the biggest symbol of Evil of our modern era. Evil was struck down. In my opinion, the cheering was appropriate.

I understand that sentiment, and I'm not going to argue opinions - I will share mine though.

Remember that Al Quaida forces are "rebel fighters" and had their own reasons to kill other (and themselves!) to attack the sleeping giant ... none of which were based on creed or color or religion alone, but on what they felt were wrongs they were righting. They too felt justified in celebrating in the streets. I find it hard to choke down celebration of the death of people.

I'm not saying his death was wrong, I'm not condemning the US for executing a military move to end Bin Laden, and once again, I do understand the sentiment.

As an outsider though, I see it as fresh kindling on an old fire that's been burning since the cold war. The perception of US foreign policy needs to be changed. This? It's not really a whooping and hollering event IMHO. There is a reparation that needs to bridge the gap between those groups who feel wronged by the US using them as military pawns in the cold war and then abandoning them. The culture clash is hard enough, but middle-east dabbling has gone on for so long and it's not something that's worked well.

People are people.

Celebrating anybody's death is demeaning on one level. I wasn't whooping and hollering myself, even though I'm happy that it happened as it did. It's a shame that we live in a world where this constitutes good news. But we do.

Reports say that his religion's practices were followed in disposing of OBL's body. THis was done not out of respect for our hated enemy, but for Islam. This official class act will matter more in the end than the street parties.

[raydude]

As an outsider though, I see it as fresh kindling on an old fire that's been burning since the cold war. The perception of US foreign policy needs to be changed. This? It's not really a whooping and hollering event IMHO. There is a reparation that needs to bridge the gap between those groups who feel wronged by the US using them as military pawns in the cold war and then abandoning them. The culture clash is hard enough, but middle-east dabbling has gone on for so long and it's not something that's worked well.

People are people.

Look at it from the perspective of other celebrations then, both in the US and abroad. Was there video of people shooting guns in the air? Nope. Was there looting and rioting (as there are after Championship games)? Nope. Were there people burning flags of Muslim countries or shouting anti-Muslim or anti-Arabic slogans? Nope.

I'd say, judging against the way other people celebrate killings or major events, this celebration was pretty tame.

[Booner]

Churchill made a speech after Britain's first major victory in N Africa and I think one passage mirrors my feelings on the death of Bin Laden...

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

[hepcat]

Look at it from the perspective of other celebrations then, both in the US and abroad. Was there video of people shooting guns in the air? Nope. Was there looting and rioting (as there are after Championship games)? Nope. Were there people burning flags of Muslim countries or shouting anti-Muslim or anti-Arabic slogans? Nope.

I'd say, judging against the way other people celebrate killings or major events, this celebration was pretty tame.

If you want to be viewed as better than the enemy, you can't just be slightly better.  If the goal is to also change the hearts and minds of people who've been told their entire lives that we are savages out to rape and pillage their countries, we need to be better than that.

If, however, we simply want to kill our enemies and remain at war for the foreseeable future, then we can afford to be seen in the manner you feel is okay.

[Purge]

I'm going to respond in the R&P forum, because I suspect my opinion may bring some of the R&P out of that container.

[CeeKay]

I'm going to respond in the R&P forum, because I suspect my opinion may bring some of the R&P out of that container.

while you're at it fix your red x-tastic avatar 

[metallicorphan]

there are differences to the 'street parties' from 9/11 to this week

the people in the streets back at 9/11 whooping etc were basically cheering that 3000 innocent lives were taken

this week people were partying in the streets because one guilty murdering coward who has basically kept most of the world hostage so to speak was finally killed


With all that there is in today's world,be it Terrorism or even Redundancy or Depression/Credit Crunch,let the people celebrate some good that has come about


Of course i do get what you mean the above is just my opinion 



that being said though today i was reading about Rudy Giuliani who was pretty much in the same state of mind about not celebrating,and said that he 'felt odd' and 'relieved but not elated'


I also read that the Human Shield Bin Laden used in the firefight was his youngest wife,and his son was also killed in the shootout

[Huw the Poo]

There's an interesting and - I warn you - somewhat challenging piece in today's Independent from Robert Fisk, you can read it here.

To give context, Fisk is the Independent's Middle East correspondent.  He has lived there for a large part of his life and is an undisputed expert on the region.  What he doesn't know about the Middle East isn't worth knowing.

[morlac]

I don't look at it as people celebrating the death of another human being but people celebrating the fact that the mastermind of the worst unprovoked attack on American civilians has finally been brought to justice.  The fact the he was killed in this attempt is moot.  He was an enemy combatant who died in combat.

[rickfc]

I don't look at it as people celebrating the death of another human being but people celebrating the fact that the mastermind of the worst unprovoked attack on American civilians has finally been brought to justice.  The fact the he was killed in this attempt is moot.  He was an enemy combatant who died in combat.

This. There would have been similar celebration had he been captured alive.

[hepcat]

Celebrating the capture of an enemy is a little less vulgar than dancing on a man's grave and giggling.   

Listen, I'm pleased we got this ass.  I just think our efforts in ending this war on extremists would be better served with a nobler response in such situations. 

[ibdoomed]

Capturing him would not have done any good. He couldn't be tried fairly in this country and the US refuses to participate in the ICC.

[rickfc]

Celebrating the capture of an enemy is a little less vulgar than dancing on a man's grave and giggling.   

Listen, I'm pleased we got this ass.  I just think our efforts in ending this war on extremists would be better served with a nobler response in such situations. 

hep, why do you hate America?

I agree with you, but I also can't fault people for their jubilation.

Also,

Celebrating the capture of an enemy is a little less vulgar than dancing on a man's grave and giggling.

When you're responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not tens of thousands, of innocents, you are no longer a human being, and deserve to be hunted down, and put down like an animal, IMO.

[Purge]

When you're responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not tens of thousands, of innocents, you are no longer a human being, and deserve to be hunted down, and put down like an animal, IMO.

Ah, so then GWB who was at the helm, and his administration which had prior knowledge should too face similar consequences? What about non-combat responsibility, such as that of the gross mismanagement of the Hurricane Katrina disaster which contributed to 1800 deaths?

You might want to use a narrower brush.

[Flatlander]

When you're responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not tens of thousands, of innocents, you are no longer a human being, and deserve to be hunted down, and put down like an animal, IMO.

Ah, so then GWB who was at the helm, and his administration which had prior knowledge should too face similar consequences? What about non-combat responsibility, such as that of the gross mismanagement of the Hurricane Katrina disaster which contributed to 1800 deaths?

You might want to use a narrower brush.

What are you asserting he had prior knowledge of, exactly?

[hepcat]

Yeah, purge...i'm not really sure you can even begin to equate bush with bin laden.  as much as i dislike the man's politics, he didn't announce a war on anyone until after we were attacked.  i admit that his insistence on drawing iraq into this was flimsy and circumspect, but i truly believe he thought he was acting in the best interest of the iraqi people (albeit with a smidgeon of "i'll show you, dad!" thrown in for good measure).

as for katrina, that's a natural disaster and no one is ever truly prepared for such an event.  it was mishandled, but hardly a criminal act on anyone's part.

[rickfc]

When you're responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not tens of thousands, of innocents, you are no longer a human being, and deserve to be hunted down, and put down like an animal, IMO.

Ah, so then GWB who was at the helm, and his administration which had prior knowledge should too face similar consequences? What about non-combat responsibility, such as that of the gross mismanagement of the Hurricane Katrina disaster which contributed to 1800 deaths?

You might want to use a narrower brush.

What are you asserting he had prior knowledge of, exactly?

This.

And who exactly was responsible for the entire Katrina debacle? It wasn't just one person, but a breakdown in government, local and federal alike. Also, many of the 1800 deaths you mentioned were caused by the storm and subsequent flooding. While it's a point of contention whether there would have been as many deaths had aid arrived sooner, it's not like GWB or anyone else aimed the hurricane at Louisiana.

It seems to me like you're the one painting with too-broad a brush.

[Bullwinkle]

We are going deep into R&P territory here, and I agree that Purge is getting a little tin-foil with his J'accusing, but who gets to decide when a human is no longer human, exactly?  What's the exact number of people killed?  Where does the grey area start becoming black?

OTOH, while it certainly is convenient that he died (supposedly using his wife as a shield, nice), which taints everything with a suspicious layer, I don't imagine the man was saying, "Okay, okay, you got me" and putting his hands up when he got double tapped in the eye.

[Purge]

I apologize, I have been really busy at work. The comment made was that one responsible for civilian deaths should be held accountable.

How many Iraqis died in both Gulf wars? How many were civilians? Responsibility isn't just due to direct input, it is also from lack of measures or preparedness. It's also for being concerned with profit margins over human life (45K US dead in 2009, attributed to no insurance for medical care!)

That is 5x the number of people who died in 9/11.

I recall reading reports indicating the barrier protecting New Orleans was only rated for a Class 4 hurricane, and they *knew* this and chose not to fix it even after Hurricane Andrew (IIRC). Responsibility didn't just lie on GWB (but on all levels of government), but that doesn't un-fuck the situation.

if one holds true the statement made above, there would certainly be a lot more people put up against a wall and shot for their incompetence, ignorance, and greed.

You gonna be the one to pull the trigger?

[msteelers]

I'll echo those who are a little disappointed to see people using bin Laden's death as a reason to party in the streets. I can't help but think of the images from the Middle East after 911 when I see the images from Sunday night. However, they are under totally different circumstances. No rational person in the world should be cheering for the death of over 3,000 innocent civilians, and it's understandable that people will be happy when the mastermind behind those attacks is finally brought to justice. I just wish our collective reaction would have been a silent fist pump or something.

Then again, the way we got him is incredibly badass. We crashed a friggin helicopter into his front yard and shot him in the eye. It's hard to hear about that and resist the urge to chant "USA! USA!" over and over again.