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Author Topic: Chelsea (Bradley) Manning - when does gender assignment change you  (Read 919 times)
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Fireball
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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2013, 04:27:54 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 29, 2013, 03:13:12 PM

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They don't have a "misconception" about their gender -- you do.

Again, medical science up until now disagrees with this assertion.

No, those who treat transgendered people disagree with you.


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Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 27, 2013, 10:11:42 PM

Ignorance and fear about this issue lead to things like this:

Transgender Woman Dies After Beating in Front of NYPD Precinct

True, but I'm not sure how your point or the link is relevant to this conversation.  

Transgendered people face violence and discrimination because of the attitudes of those who think they are "disordered" and "wrong" about their gender.


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They aren't denying reality.  They are stating that 'male' and 'female' applies to more than just the number of penises present.  It refers to that, it refers to how one sees ones's psyche, and it refers to how one fits in with society.  

Thank you for actually trying to answer the question. But I have to ask again, just because one's psyche tells them something does not make it true, so why do we say 'ok, fine, you're a female' instead of 'treating' the disconnect.

Doctors and therapists spent years trying to "treat" transgenderism like it was a "disorder" or "illness", but found that such treatments typically worsened the problem and led to bad results. The only "treatment" that has shown to at all alleviate the depression, suffering and self-hatred that plague many transgendered people is some form of embracing their mental gender, sometimes including hormone therapy or surgery to correct the mismatching physical features.

When one's body and mind assert a different truth about one's gender, research and therapy work has regularly shown that the mind, not the body is "right" -- ie, the disconnect can be fixed by altering the body, not by trying to convince the mind to feel differently.

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If someone puts their right shoe on their left foot and vice versa and we say hey it's true to them, this still does not make it so.

Gender, as a mental state of mind, has nothing to do with physical traits. This metaphor is fundamentally flawed, and reflects the common bias transgendered people face, where the physical facts of their anatomy are thought to trump their mental reality.

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Theres a huge difference between issues of trans-gender and issues of trans-species.  There is plenty of medical evidence that supports trans-gender issues, Im not aware of any medical evidence supporting trans-species.  

We're splitting hairs now. The larger issue is the disconnect between the person's mental state and the physical reality.

Physical traits are (mostly) determined genetically, but a person's mental reality is far more complex. There is no reason to preference the physical as being "right" and the mental as being "wrong", which you are continually asserting. In fact, experts who actually deal with these issues have found the exact opposite.
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Alefroth
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« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2013, 04:37:46 PM »

Quote from: Grifman on August 29, 2013, 09:52:15 AM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:50:48 AM

Quote from: ATB on August 27, 2013, 07:31:58 PM


This eschews the point and I'm going to choose to ignore it.  

There are people all over the world who see reality in a way that is contrary to reality. How is it that if someone says they feel like a woman even though they are a man suddenly validate the misconception? Rather than it being looked at as a mental issue like so many other mental disconnects?

If a male says they feel like a woman, how is that contrary to reality?

Ale

If a man says he's feels like a monkey, how is that contrary to reality?

Fact is, no one has actually dared to answer ATB's question.  If a man says he feels like he's female, that's accepted - at least by many.  But if he said he feels like he's a monkey and starts going around acting like monkey, I think most people would say he's got a problem.  So what is the principle for distinguishing between the two?  Is there a principle involved, or it is just arbitrary?

What is at issue is not whether he is a monkey, but whether he feels like one. Who are we to say how he feels?
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Alefroth
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« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2013, 04:42:38 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on August 29, 2013, 05:06:21 AM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:52:24 AM

Quote from: wonderpug on August 27, 2013, 08:37:08 PM

ATB, consider someone born with both types of genitals.  Do you think that by removing the female set it will make the person identify as a male?  But if you had removed the male set you think they would have identified as a female?

Do people born with both genitals have standard male/female chromosome make-ups?

Ale

Good question; I wasn't sure either. 

From Wikipedia it appears that having both sets usually means you have both an XX and an XY pair, but from looking at this article, there's a variety of ways that you could have a normal XX or XY pair but exhibit the opposite type of genitals at birth.

I found the above interesting, but just for clarity, being transgender doesn't necessarily mean you have a chromosomal situation like in that link above.

That's some interesting information. I hope ATB reads it. If the biological separation of sex is not always clear cut, why should it be any different psychologically?

Ale
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Fireball
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« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2013, 04:54:37 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:37:46 PM


What is at issue is not whether he is a monkey, but whether he feels like one. Who are we to say how he feels?

If there is a biological "cause" of transgenderism, it likely has to do with hormones during pregnancy -- where the genetic codes in the fetus cause hormones to be released that shape its physical traits, but for some reason the hormonal mix that effects mental development comes out differently, resulting in a mentally-imprinted gender that is at odds with the physically-developed sex. Given the complicated nature of sex/gender and fetal development, it's surprising that transgenderism is actually as rare as it is.

To compare the plight of transgendered people to someone who thinks he is actually a completely different type of creature, well beyond the scope of the sort of hormonal/genetic combinations that may be the cause of transgenderism, is insulting and derisive towards an already maligned and misunderstood portion of our community.
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Alefroth
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« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2013, 05:05:21 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 29, 2013, 04:54:37 PM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:37:46 PM


What is at issue is not whether he is a monkey, but whether he feels like one. Who are we to say how he feels?

If there is a biological "cause" of transgenderism, it likely has to do with hormones during pregnancy -- where the genetic codes in the fetus cause hormones to be released that shape its physical traits, but for some reason the hormonal mix that effects mental development comes out differently, resulting in a mentally-imprinted gender that is at odds with the physically-developed sex. Given the complicated nature of sex/gender and fetal development, it's surprising that transgenderism is actually as rare as it is.

To compare the plight of transgendered people to someone who thinks he is actually a completely different type of creature, well beyond the scope of the sort of hormonal/genetic combinations that may be the cause of transgenderism, is insulting and derisive towards an already maligned and misunderstood portion of our community.

Not sure why you chose to respond to me rather than the person who made the comparison. All I was saying is that it isn't up to us to decide whether a male who feels she is a woman is really feeling that.

Ale
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Fireball
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« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2013, 05:24:17 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 05:05:21 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 29, 2013, 04:54:37 PM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:37:46 PM


What is at issue is not whether he is a monkey, but whether he feels like one. Who are we to say how he feels?

If there is a biological "cause" of transgenderism, it likely has to do with hormones during pregnancy -- where the genetic codes in the fetus cause hormones to be released that shape its physical traits, but for some reason the hormonal mix that effects mental development comes out differently, resulting in a mentally-imprinted gender that is at odds with the physically-developed sex. Given the complicated nature of sex/gender and fetal development, it's surprising that transgenderism is actually as rare as it is.

To compare the plight of transgendered people to someone who thinks he is actually a completely different type of creature, well beyond the scope of the sort of hormonal/genetic combinations that may be the cause of transgenderism, is insulting and derisive towards an already maligned and misunderstood portion of our community.

Not sure why you chose to respond to me rather than the person who made the comparison. All I was saying is that it isn't up to us to decide whether a male who feels she is a woman is really feeling that.

Ale

Sorry, I read your sentence entirely backwards from how you meant it.
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Alefroth
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« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2013, 05:31:20 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 29, 2013, 05:24:17 PM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 05:05:21 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 29, 2013, 04:54:37 PM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:37:46 PM


What is at issue is not whether he is a monkey, but whether he feels like one. Who are we to say how he feels?

If there is a biological "cause" of transgenderism, it likely has to do with hormones during pregnancy -- where the genetic codes in the fetus cause hormones to be released that shape its physical traits, but for some reason the hormonal mix that effects mental development comes out differently, resulting in a mentally-imprinted gender that is at odds with the physically-developed sex. Given the complicated nature of sex/gender and fetal development, it's surprising that transgenderism is actually as rare as it is.

To compare the plight of transgendered people to someone who thinks he is actually a completely different type of creature, well beyond the scope of the sort of hormonal/genetic combinations that may be the cause of transgenderism, is insulting and derisive towards an already maligned and misunderstood portion of our community.

Not sure why you chose to respond to me rather than the person who made the comparison. All I was saying is that it isn't up to us to decide whether a male who feels she is a woman is really feeling that.

Ale

Sorry, I read your sentence entirely backwards from how you meant it.
No worries. I know that I often don't express myself clearly.

Ale
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Ragnarok
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« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2013, 06:56:47 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:37:46 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 29, 2013, 09:52:15 AM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:50:48 AM

Quote from: ATB on August 27, 2013, 07:31:58 PM


This eschews the point and I'm going to choose to ignore it.  

There are people all over the world who see reality in a way that is contrary to reality. How is it that if someone says they feel like a woman even though they are a man suddenly validate the misconception? Rather than it being looked at as a mental issue like so many other mental disconnects?

If a male says they feel like a woman, how is that contrary to reality?

Ale

If a man says he's feels like a monkey, how is that contrary to reality?

Fact is, no one has actually dared to answer ATB's question.  If a man says he feels like he's female, that's accepted - at least by many.  But if he said he feels like he's a monkey and starts going around acting like monkey, I think most people would say he's got a problem.  So what is the principle for distinguishing between the two?  Is there a principle involved, or it is just arbitrary?

What is at issue is not whether he is a monkey, but whether he feels like one. Who are we to say how he feels?

How the hell do you 'feel' like a monkey?  Does anyone know how monkeys feel?  Stating that you 'feel' like a monkey and wanted to be one could only mean that you want to act and be like one, or mimic one.  It doesn't mean you are one, even if you get hair grafted all over your body and throw your poo.








« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 07:21:06 PM by Ragnarok » Logged
Grifman
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« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2013, 07:30:52 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:37:46 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 29, 2013, 09:52:15 AM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:50:48 AM

Quote from: ATB on August 27, 2013, 07:31:58 PM


This eschews the point and I'm going to choose to ignore it.  

There are people all over the world who see reality in a way that is contrary to reality. How is it that if someone says they feel like a woman even though they are a man suddenly validate the misconception? Rather than it being looked at as a mental issue like so many other mental disconnects?

If a male says they feel like a woman, how is that contrary to reality?

Ale

If a man says he's feels like a monkey, how is that contrary to reality?

Fact is, no one has actually dared to answer ATB's question.  If a man says he feels like he's female, that's accepted - at least by many.  But if he said he feels like he's a monkey and starts going around acting like monkey, I think most people would say he's got a problem.  So what is the principle for distinguishing between the two?  Is there a principle involved, or it is just arbitrary?

What is at issue is not whether he is a monkey, but whether he feels like one. Who are we to say how he feels?

So if a man went around acting like a monkey, you'd think that was ok?
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Blackhawk
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« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2013, 07:36:55 PM »

The internet, where every conversation ends up on either Nazis or furries.  Or  Otherkin.
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Grifman
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« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2013, 07:40:37 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 29, 2013, 04:27:54 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 29, 2013, 03:13:12 PM

Quote
They don't have a "misconception" about their gender -- you do.

Again, medical science up until now disagrees with this assertion.

No, those who treat transgendered people disagree with you.

Sorry, you can't make such a blanket statement.  See this article by the the Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins.  He treated transgenders and because of what he saw, he changed Johns Hopkins policy of performing transgender surgery:

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/02/surgical-sex--35

He found that surgery didn't really solve the underlying psychological problems.  And he is not alone - such surgery is still controversial in the medical field.
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Grifman
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« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2013, 07:44:35 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 29, 2013, 04:54:37 PM

To compare the plight of transgendered people to someone who thinks he is actually a completely different type of creature, well beyond the scope of the sort of hormonal/genetic combinations that may be the cause of transgenderism, is insulting and derisive towards an already maligned and misunderstood portion of our community.

I'm simply asking on what basis you decide one is "normal" and one is "not normal"?  You still haven't answered that question.  All you are doing above is engaging in "argument by outrage".  Give me the principle that you use to distinguish between the two.  That's all I'm asking.
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Fireball
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« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2013, 08:06:24 PM »

Quote from: Grifman on August 29, 2013, 07:44:35 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 29, 2013, 04:54:37 PM

To compare the plight of transgendered people to someone who thinks he is actually a completely different type of creature, well beyond the scope of the sort of hormonal/genetic combinations that may be the cause of transgenderism, is insulting and derisive towards an already maligned and misunderstood portion of our community.

I'm simply asking on what basis you decide one is "normal" and one is "not normal"?  You still haven't answered that question.  All you are doing above is engaging in "argument by outrage".  Give me the principle that you use to distinguish between the two.  That's all I'm asking.

Normal in a situation like this means something like a condition or state of being that is within the range of common human experience that does not in and of itself cause harm to other people or one's self. Transgendered people may not be the "norm," but they have existed throughout history, are not a danger to anyone. However, attitudes that tell them that they are "wrong," "ill," "disordered", etc, are a danger to them.
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Alefroth
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« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2013, 08:07:08 PM »

Quote from: Grifman on August 29, 2013, 07:30:52 PM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:37:46 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 29, 2013, 09:52:15 AM

Quote from: Alefroth on August 29, 2013, 04:50:48 AM

Quote from: ATB on August 27, 2013, 07:31:58 PM


This eschews the point and I'm going to choose to ignore it.  

There are people all over the world who see reality in a way that is contrary to reality. How is it that if someone says they feel like a woman even though they are a man suddenly validate the misconception? Rather than it being looked at as a mental issue like so many other mental disconnects?

If a male says they feel like a woman, how is that contrary to reality?

Ale

If a man says he's feels like a monkey, how is that contrary to reality?

Fact is, no one has actually dared to answer ATB's question.  If a man says he feels like he's female, that's accepted - at least by many.  But if he said he feels like he's a monkey and starts going around acting like monkey, I think most people would say he's got a problem.  So what is the principle for distinguishing between the two?  Is there a principle involved, or it is just arbitrary?

What is at issue is not whether he is a monkey, but whether he feels like one. Who are we to say how he feels?

So if a man went around acting like a monkey, you'd think that was ok?

I'm not going to validate your premise that believing one is a monkey is anything like having a gender identity issue. There is nothing contradictory in thinking a person that believes they are a monkey has a problem, yet a male that thinks he is a woman, doesn't. Humans have the capacity to be male/female and/or man/woman. Humans have no capacity to be a monkey.

Ale
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 08:15:21 PM by Alefroth » Logged
brettmcd
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« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2013, 09:09:28 PM »

I am curious about where people think she should be held?    There is a lot of talk that she will ask to be held at the woman's prison for military detainees.    As I said before I have no clue what is appropriate and when for something like that.
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hmm...


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« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2013, 09:31:01 PM »

Quote from: Grifman on August 29, 2013, 07:44:35 PM

I'm simply asking on what basis you decide one is "normal" and one is "not normal"?  You still haven't answered that question.  All you are doing above is engaging in "argument by outrage".  Give me the principle that you use to distinguish between the two.  That's all I'm asking.

I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here, and I guess what you're really asking is how it's decided what human characteristics outside of the majority 'norm' are disorders, rather than just another acceptable variation. You're right that there's no special test where you can get someone to pee on a stick and see that transgenderism is or is not ok, or that the rare case of red hair color is or is not a disorder.

The DSM IV had transgenderism as a disorder, and the new DSM-5 that just came out has it as just a "dysphoria", and it's no longer in the sexual disorder chapter. So yes, to some degree the way we classify stuff is a bit arbitrary, if that's what your getting at.

But as far as how to treat this population, when it comes down to it, their mindset is their mindset. It's just as treatable as gayness is (read: not at all).  They're not a danger to themselves or to society, and all they're really looking for is to be accepted the way they are. What's the harm in that? (Aside from how situations like locker rooms and prisons do become admittedly complex.)
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Fireball
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« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2013, 10:07:03 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on August 29, 2013, 09:09:28 PM

I am curious about where people think she should be held?    There is a lot of talk that she will ask to be held at the woman's prison for military detainees.    As I said before I have no clue what is appropriate and when for something like that.

It is common practice in the United States that prisoners by imprisoned according to their sex, regardless of their gender. There are some local jails that may on occasion not follow this practice.

Were it up to me, I would probably house Manning in a male facility for the first year or two, until hormone treatments have begun to alter her appearance and produce breasts, etc. At that point, she'd probably be safest in a women's facility. I'm not certain how to deal with shower situations there; I can imagine it would be disconcerting for other prisoners to shower with a woman with a penis between her legs. I imagine a shifted schedule with isolated showering could be established.
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Bullwinkle
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« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2013, 11:41:12 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 29, 2013, 03:13:12 PM


Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 27, 2013, 10:11:42 PM

Ignorance and fear about this issue lead to things like this:

Transgender Woman Dies After Beating in Front of NYPD Precinct

True, but I'm not sure how your point or the link is relevant to this conversation.  

Quote
This is the same spurious comparison that people make about gay marriage:  If we let a man marry another man, what's to stop a man from marrying a dog?  They are not at all the same thing and saying such things just show ignorance.  The reason no one answered that question is that it's not a real question.  It's ridiculous.

No it's not. If he had said superhero instead of monkey, the question is still the same. You're assertion is the spurious one. And it is a real question. Stop looking for a boogy man. There isn't one in this conversation.


Your second comment is why my first one is relevant.  I'm not saying that you will go out and beat up a transgendered person, ATB.  You're obviously a better person than that.  But the ignorance is a slippery slope.  There is not a boogeyman out there.  As the article shows, it's very real.

Thinking of yourself as a superhero is not the same thing as saying you are a monkey, and by going there, you're going to the same place as someone making the case against gay marriage.  The person making the dog comparison could make a less insulting comparison, but they don't.  And it is insulting, just as the dog comment is, and it reveals ignorance.

However, even thinking of yourself as a superhero isn't the same thing as thinking of yourself as a different gender.  As a superhero, you could likely put yourself or others in danger.  A transgendered person doesn't (apart from the danger of an ignorant group in front of a police station).  Additionally, much like someone else brought up here, thinking you can fly, for example, while it is something humans cannot do, is not the same thing as thinking you're of a different gender, which people can be.
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That's like blaming owls because I suck at making analogies.
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