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Author Topic: Bush and Bush on Bush Jr II [RP]  (Read 4758 times)
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Knightshade Dragon
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« on: June 01, 2005, 01:26:45 PM »

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/31/bush.plug/index.html

Do you think he'd stand a chance after "No New Taxes" daddy and "I'm gonna bomb Iraqistan!" son?  This guy can't handle basic counting in his state...I don't want him holding the reigns.  Hanging chad indeed...
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2005, 03:13:05 PM »

Oh good god no. Every Republican in the country should just cry out in shame if they really truly think Jeb Bush is Presidential material.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2005, 03:27:05 PM »

George W. Bush's administration is the one that rushed our troops into war without adequately armored vehicles or modern body armor and then sought to cut their combat pay during the war, yet he was reelected based on his willingness to "support the troops."

I'm not sure what Jeb Bush could possibly do that would make him unelectable.  That isn't hyperbole -- in a world where 51% of the American people literally believe in liberal media conspiracy so vast that "journalist" becomes synonymous with "liar," I seriously can't imagine what would convince them to vote against another Bush.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2005, 03:36:49 PM »

Quote
liberal media conspiracy so vast that "journalist" becomes synonymous with "liar,"

You make a good point - there are far too many people who either push the "I believe!" button too quickly or simply can't believe anything no matter how staggering the proof.  Some middle ground would be good.

Still...Jeb sounds like a name from Deliverance.
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2005, 04:14:34 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
George W. Bush's administration is the one that rushed our troops into war without adequately armored vehicles or modern body armor and then sought to cut their combat pay during the war, yet he was reelected based on his willingness to "support the troops."

I'm not sure what Jeb Bush could possibly do that would make him unelectable.  That isn't hyperbole -- in a world where 51% of the American people literally believe in liberal media conspiracy so vast that "journalist" becomes synonymous with "liar," I seriously can't imagine what would convince them to vote against another Bush.

-Autistic Angel


You mean "print" media when you refer to this vast left wing conspiracy. The radio airwaves are overwhelmingly dominated by far right-wing nutjobs that give moderates on both sides a bad bad taste in their mouths.
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2005, 05:04:42 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
I'm not sure what Jeb Bush could possibly do that would make him unelectable.  That isn't hyperbole -- in a world where 51% of the American people literally believe in liberal media conspiracy so vast that "journalist" becomes synonymous with "liar," I seriously can't imagine what would convince them to vote against another Bush.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the average person is a complete idiot.

That's the only reason Bush got reelected.
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2005, 05:14:47 PM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
I'm not sure what Jeb Bush could possibly do that would make him unelectable.  That isn't hyperbole -- in a world where 51% of the American people literally believe in liberal media conspiracy so vast that "journalist" becomes synonymous with "liar," I seriously can't imagine what would convince them to vote against another Bush.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the average person is a complete idiot.

That's the only reason Bush got reelected.


*shrug*  I like to think it's because the Dems didn't offer an adequate alternative.  There were lots of people that didn't particularly like Bush and were ready for a change.  Unfortunately for the Dems, Kerry's brand of change wasn't to enough people's liking.
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2005, 05:15:43 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
George W. Bush's administration is the one that rushed our troops into war without adequately armored vehicles or modern body armor and then sought to cut their combat pay during the war, yet he was reelected based on his willingness to "support the troops."

I'm not sure what Jeb Bush could possibly do that would make him unelectable.  That isn't hyperbole -- in a world where 51% of the American people literally believe in liberal media conspiracy so vast that "journalist" becomes synonymous with "liar," I seriously can't imagine what would convince them to vote against another Bush.

-Autistic Angel


this was not what I was expecting.  I'm so dissappointed. frown
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2005, 08:05:58 PM »

Quote
I like to think it's because the Dems didn't offer an adequate alternative.

I'll agree with that completely.  Maybe if he didn't have bolts in his neck and talk like a murderous cyborg that would have helped too.  Maybe Kerry and Gore were related...
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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2005, 08:08:10 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote
I like to think it's because the Dems didn't offer an adequate alternative.

I'll agree with that completely.  Maybe if he didn't have bolts in his neck and talk like a murderous cyborg that would have helped too.  Maybe Kerry and Gore were related...


I find it hard to believe that anyone not particularly partisan would really believe that George W. Bush was an "adequate alternative" to two men who by all accounts seem more educated, more intelligent, far better spoken, with more clear and concise plans, and less general disdain for the rest of the world.

But hey, I voted for him once too, so I guess we all make mistakes sometimes. Now we know (or at least I do).
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2005, 12:41:34 AM »

Jeb won't have the support of the religious right.  He therefore doesn't really merit serious consideration... at this time.
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2005, 02:56:18 AM »

Why wouldnt he have the support of the religious right?  Are they going to vote Democrat?

Jeb Bush is a more dangerous NeoCon than GWB ever was, because he is actually intelligent.  Iraq is their vision for America- high unemployment, open borders, no pesky labor laws,  no environmental laws, and a very sharp division between the rich and the poor.  The reason Iraq blew up into a civil war is because the Iraqi's didnt support Bush selling their entire country to the highest bidder, and the NeoCons expected the Iraqi's to just wither up and die when they couldnt find work.  Americans are far more docile.

Baghdad Year Zero essentially outlines their plans to rape a nation and why it didnt work.

Any reports that the NeoCon's are falling out of favor is insane; unless they are going to go thru a governmental DeBushification, the NeoCon agenda has now become the American agenda.
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2005, 03:04:00 AM »

At any rate, the Bushs are now in a 'no accountability' zone.

Im guessing the Democrats will win the next presidential election, burn themselves out trying to fix the mess GWB made of the country in the last eight years and get criticized the entire time, then Jeb will prance into town on his white horse and act like some sort of savior.

The only hope this country has would be impeaching Bush, but I cant fool myself into it being anything more than a longshot, since anything truly important wont be reported in American newspapers.
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2005, 07:50:49 PM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the average person is a complete idiot.

That's the only reason Bush got reelected.


That's one explanation, here's another.  I leave it to you to decide which is the truth.

http://mindprod.com/politics/election.htm

I think it's a combination of the two.  Without having a country full of idiots, stealing an election wouldn't be possible...would it?

glyc
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2005, 07:59:37 PM »

Quote from: "Glycerine"

HTTP 404 Not Found

This was a trick and I fell for it right?

Crap.  I'm so gullible!
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2005, 01:37:37 AM »

Here is another explaination-
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2005, 03:03:18 AM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the average person is a complete idiot.  That's the only reason Bush got reelected.


The average person is not a complete idiot, and neither are the people who voted for Bush.  I'd say it's condescending, elitist attitudes like this that helped Bush get reelected.
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« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2005, 03:30:05 AM »

I do not think the average person is an idiot. Ok, actually thats not true at all. I do think the average person is a complete idiot. But I do not think that is why Bush won the second time. I think he won because the huge chunk of middle america and deep south population that always goes red simply has a completely different world-view than many of us on this board (Dems and repubs a like), from those in the major cities, from those on the coasts, and to extend this logically, from our neighbors across the pond. I often (now more than ever, with the seeming rise of the religious wing of the right) think that the people in these parts of the country are simply having the wool pulled over their eyes by the people they vote for-but I think at its most basic level, a Republican cowboy wannabee from Texas simply has an utterly incompatible view of the world and politics with a Democrat academic wannabee from New York. Its an interesting conundrum really.
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2005, 05:18:19 AM »

I think the 'average' citizen of this country is not an idiot per se, but a sheep.  Sheep waiting to be led.  The person most able to present himself as a shepard will get them to follow.

Guys like Bush play the shepard real well.  They make it their number one priority to protect the sheep from the wolves.  Even if it means surrounding the sheep with large, aggressive dogs. Dogs that pose as big a threat to the safety of the sheep as the wolves. But the dogs take their orders from the shepard so whatever the dogs do, the sheep know it's for their own protection, sacrifices have to be made after all.

Guys like Kerry and Gore are like PETA members, telling the sheep that the shepards, dogs, AND wolves are all out to get them, so they better be wary.  The sheep can't help but notice the nice wool coats Kerry and Gore are wearing as they tell the sheep this.

Sheep don't want to hear that message anyways.  The sheep want to believe that everyone loves them because they are cute and cuddly, and like to run free on the open plains.  Everyone except the wolves of course, but they don't have to worry about wolves as long as they have a shepard watching over them.  A shepared with a large pack of dogs.

I wonder, if I wrote this as a script, could I sell it?
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 08:06:05 AM »

I think this country is screwed up because people don't agree with me.
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« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2005, 01:30:15 PM »

I think this country is screwed up because democracy is founded on the principle of civil dissent, yet lately it's become rather mainstream to believe that anyone who disagrees with the current administration is an unpatriotic traitor who hates freedom and wishes harm on our military.

I always thought of politics as the art of compromise, where two different ideologies came together to find a common middle ground that was in the best interests of the people.  Given the level of conservative venom directed at the Republicans who successfully negotiated a deal with Democrats that resulted in preserving the filibuster *and* giving Bush his judicial nominee votes, it seems that my belief is in the minority.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2005, 04:02:13 PM »

During the republican primaries, there are a lot of joke candidates.  Alan Keyes, who can link pretty much everything to abortion.  Gary Bauer, the 2nd creepiest man on earth.  Steve Forbes, the human furby.  These are all fringe candidates who espouse a very christian conservative perspective (except perhaps for Forbes, but he's definitely strayed from his flat-tax fiscal conservative perspective).  The RR loves these candidates.

I don't think Jeb will have the support of the RR this time around.  They wanted him to throw down the gauntlet during the Schiavo case, and he didn't.  If he runs for prez it is most DEFINTELY going to come up.  Joke Candidates will pound him on it in debates.  And Jeb is going to be stuck in a very bad spot, given that the majority of the country thought that what he did was bullshit, but the primary voters think just the opposite.  If anything, the RR will reject him just to flex muscle.  Support will dribble out to the joke candidates.  That's IMO what made Dubya such a strong candidate... those people who would otherwise have supported the joke candidates backed him very very strongly.  There's a Warcraft III metaphor somewhere in there but I'm too lazy to write one up.  Maybe later.  But it's a general problem with the RR.  They'll back you fervently but someday they're going to want you to do something that's just pollo con loco.  

It'll be an interesting time for the GOP in the coming years.  The old school fiscals are not happy and so far their marching orders are to shut up and close rank.  But now that the GOP is in power there's no real need to be as cohesive as before.  

The Dems have a different problem.  They were formerly in power and got hit because they were bloated and lazy.  The real problem is that they keep thinking that one day Bush is going to veer so far to the right that the voters will reject him.  Well it's been 5 years and two elections since 2000 and that hasn't happened.  And everytime the GOP wins the Dems all think "Well the voters are idiots, they'll come around next time when Bush goes so far to the right, blah blah blah"  They never think that maybe, I don't know, they're so god damn milquetoast about everything that it doesn't mask their open desire to get back into power?  Don't get me wrong, GOP is just as bad... but because they have a united message they have a much thicker wall of rhetorical bullshit to hide behind.
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« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2005, 06:03:28 PM »

Quote
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the average person is a complete idiot.

That's the only reason Bush got reelected.


That's funny - I say that every time Mr. Heinze and Fat Teddy get thrown back into the senate from my ass-backwards state.  biggrin

Quote
The average person is not a complete idiot, and neither are the people who voted for Bush. I'd say it's condescending, elitist attitudes like this that helped Bush get reelected.


Bingo!
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« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2005, 07:24:38 PM »

I'm a democrat, but this made me lol:

Quote
Maybe if he didn't have bolts in his neck and talk like a murderous cyborg that would have helped too.
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2005, 09:18:15 PM »

Quote from: "Gwar21"
Quote from: "Destructor"
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the average person is a complete idiot.  That's the only reason Bush got reelected.


The average person is not a complete idiot, and neither are the people who voted for Bush.  I'd say it's condescending, elitist attitudes like this that helped Bush get reelected.


I think if you voted for Bush just because other people voted against him, their claims of who the idiot is would be correct.
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2005, 10:42:37 PM »

I never talk politics since, well, it's about one of the three dumbest things to argue, and they are: philosophy, Religion and Politics.  Everyone has thier own opinion, different from everyone else, and they are always the right one... We will nto discuss how Bush Shouldnt have even won the first term, since it causes me even more pain than this topic.  That being said...

I hated this past election so damn much it made my brain hurt.  Bush should not have been elected to a second term.  No way with how the first term went would he have been elected to a second term,.. unless the democrats didnt put up anyone in responce.  If you are going to tell me Kerry is the best canidate the Democarats could have come up with, then no one should call the people who voted for Bush idiots, because it was the democratic party as a whole who were idiots.

Kerry wasnt an alternative, he was Bush lite.  Sadly those arnt my words, they were the words of a lot of people back when the election was going on.  I myself didnt see/hear him do ANYTHING concrete until it was way to late.  It seemed he was so afraid to alienate voters he ended up alienating voters.  It was one of the worst run campains run in history.  Even worse Than Bush Sr's Second term when (While true) his campaign was: "The country isnt doing that bad" When the country was saying: "We need a change."

What made it even funnier was the people who lost the election are all up in arms about how stupid the country is (Although most people are stupid until proven otherwise).  How they are right and everyone else is wrong.  They apparently forget what makes this counrty great, You are one voice of many and a majority of the country voted for someone who disagrees with you.  Yes thats right, a majority of the country disagreed with you, not just 25 people.  Instead of assuming they are all wrong, why not try accepting their opinions differ from yours, and they are being represented in office right now.  Instead of having a bitchfest and complaining, why not try to make a difference?

Nah, that might just be too much to ask.

Course I myself would kill for a viable third party...
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« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2005, 03:23:24 AM »

Point of preference:

A majority of the registered voters who cast a ballot in the last Presidential election might have voted for Bush's second term, but not the Majority of the counrty.  The most recent census estimated the US population at over 280 Million individuals.  If 140 Million people voted in the election in total, I would be amazed. Someone more ambitious than myself might wish to invest the time to find out what the numbers actally were, since I do not.

If all 140 million individuals voted for Bush, I'd be skeptic of how the percentage representation of the general election came out so close when we were told the results.  Those kind of numbers should be a landslide

Please stop calling the majority of voters the majority of the country.    I know I might be asking too much for politicians to care about people who cannot vote, didn't vote due to some circumstance in their life, or chose to not vote, but I like to include them all in my nation nonetheless.  In a Democratic - based Represenative government,  they are supposed to be representing the interest of us all in these offices, not simply the people who sign the campaign checks and cast the most ballots in their favor.
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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2005, 03:33:18 AM »

If you don't vote, you really have no reason to complain about who gets elected.  Thusly they dont really count...
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« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2005, 05:21:33 AM »

Quote from: "Semaj"
If you don't vote, you really have no reason to complain about who gets elected.  Thusly they dont really count...


If they vote or if not, they really count on April 15.  If they are good enough to tax, they are good enough to represent.  I would encourage politicians to quit being selfish and narow-scoped bums in new suits.  I would ecourage people who dismiss their countrymen to do no more than reconsider what they do by dismissing them.
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« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2005, 08:43:44 AM »

This is going to get interesting.

If you pay taxes, you should take a vested interest into where those taxes go.  Basically they are people who have thier heads in the sand, and really what kind of target audience are they?

You want to win an election, you have to cater to the needs and whims of those who vote, otherwise you wont be doing much of anything but announcing your concession speech.  When you get in office you should cater to the needs of all your constituants.  Somehow I doubt they really spend countless hours worrying about how to take care of all the non-voters... For sadly obvious reasons.

The two party system is a joke right now, hence all the voter apathy.  If you could get the whole country to spend... how long does it take ot register to vote, 35 minutes tops... time voting, then maybe they wouldnt be dismissed or ignored so much.

But, it wont happen anytime soon, so the choice of the people is made by those who actually use thier voice.
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« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2005, 01:58:23 PM »

I am well aware of the reality of your assertions about how much non-voters are accounted for in the current structure of the process of government, Semaj.

The people do not stop existing because you do not care for their level of participation in governmental process.  They all still have rights, whether they chose to exercise some of them, all of them, or none of them.

Which brings me back to my assertion that the majority of voters is not the majority of the country.  It is simply a linguistic fallacy that is too often used by politicians to justify their positions in their rhetoric.

If I had to bet $5 on which is the larger percentage in our national population, my pocket sized portrait of Abe will be wagered that non-voters outnumber voters.  Catering to them might actually get more of them involved in the process, and I imagine it would do so more effectively than waving a finger of shame at them for not voting.  There is a potential to create a larger than present constituency in the country if someone would be bold enough to draw them out by offering to not paticipate in tradtional political strategy.  It's a big risk, I doubt anyone ever will, but taking the risk has a slight chance of paying off hugely.

On taxes, it is impossible for everyone who pays taxes to vote in elections.  Some of our taxed workers are under 18 years of age.  Some of our workers are not yet naturalized citizens.  Some of our taxed workers are physically or mentally limited to a point where voting is not possible for them.  Should those able to vote make the effort to vote? Ideally, yes.  Do they have the right to chose to not vote? Also yes.

The politicians and citizens who view the majority of the country in such a narrow scope have every right to continue to do so.  It might even be wise of a politician to do.  For the citizen to do it is just a simple shame.  It is still your right to do, and I won't take it away from you.  

I just wanted the language that is used in political discussions to reflect the truth of the situation.  I'm sure that's unwise strategy for politicians to employ as well.  Enjoy being among the majority of voters for those of you who are, but please realize what the majority of the country is.  Use English correctly.
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« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2005, 02:29:22 PM »

Quote
The two party system is a joke right now, hence all the voter apathy.


I would have said that the level of voter apathy is a joke right now, hence the fact that we're stuck with a two party system.  Bush's term in office is, by itself, proof enough that the choice between our current two parties can make a tremendous difference in the course of this country *and* the lives of everyday average citizens.  In the last five years, spending on local social programs with a proven record of reducing crime has plummeted, abstinence-only sex education has lead to a marked increase in the rates at which teens engage in oral or anal intercourse because "it isn't real sex," tax cuts have shifted the tax burden onto the poor and middle class, federal spending has skyrocketed thanks to Homeland Security initiatives that have tax payers picking up the costs for plasma screen-equipped employee lounges and lawnmower races, the United States has been condemned by Amnesty International for our policies on prisoner abuse, and thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people are dead in a quest to overthrow a minor despot while the genocide in the Suden rages unchecked.

If people aren't going to the polls because they think the other guy wouldn't handle anything differently, they're simply not paying attention.

Quote
If you could get the whole country to spend... how long does it take ot register to vote, 35 minutes tops... time voting, then maybe they wouldnt be dismissed or ignored so much.


During a recent business trip to Kentucky, one unfortunate gentleman tried to convince me that Terri Schiavo was not only communicative, but also pregnant with Michael Schiavo's child at the time "that judge murdered her.  It's taken me a while to figure out, but if I were to guess, I'd say that the religious right concentrated so accutely on conflating the Terri Schiavo case with abortion issues that some people took it literally.

Increasing voter turnout is a great idea, but in a country where "fact" is a relative concept, I wouldn't know how to get them educated about the issues.

Traditionally speaking, higher voter turnouts lean results towards democrats.  I'm a democrat.  Even so, I'd *much* prefer a turnout of thoughtful, well-educated voters over a vast turnout of people who don't even recognize the names on the ballot.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2005, 03:53:37 PM »

Quote from: "Semaj"
If you don't vote, you really have no reason to complain about who gets elected.  Thusly they dont really count...


Yeah, because my vote for a Democrat counts so much in a state that votes 75-80% Republican.  I can honestly say my vote did not matter one bit, but I did it anyways.  Mainly because it was so amusing and/or scary (still can't decide which) to stand in line and listen to all the bible thumpers talk about how glad they were that someone with "high moral values" and "religious standards" was going to get their vote.  Good to see they were concerned about all the issues at stake.
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« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2005, 04:20:21 PM »

Additonally,

Quote from: "Semaj"
If you don't vote, you really have no reason to complain about who gets elected.  Thusly they dont really count...


One not only has every reason to complain about the current state of the nation, but moreover one is guarranteed the right to do just that, whether they vote or not.
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Devil
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« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2005, 04:57:01 PM »

Gratch -

I'm in the EXACT opposite situation in my state it's just that I have deal with the hate-spewing liberals.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
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« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2005, 08:59:42 PM »

The falacy of the Electoral College system is that it will always 'balance out', because the layout of people on either side of the two party system is relatively static.  But as it becomes more diffused, with people moving elsewhere for better jobs, changing party, etc, and the balance of the more populous states approaches 50-50, it starts becoming a lottery system rather than an election system.
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« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2005, 09:01:22 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Gratch -

I'm in the EXACT opposite situation in my state it's just that I have deal with the hate-spewing liberals.


Yes, all liberals hate minorities, poor people, gays, foreigners, etc.  That's why all Klan members back Democratic candidates  :roll:
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Gwar21
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« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2005, 09:50:52 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Gratch -

I'm in the EXACT opposite situation in my state it's just that I have deal with the hate-spewing liberals.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.


Shh.....people around here are going to start thinking of you as an idiot sheep, since only idiot sheep support the obvious evil that is conservatism!   ninja
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Gratch
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« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2005, 10:04:05 PM »

I should probably clarify.  I live in Utah, so the amount of incredibly vocal bible-thumpers is much higher than most places.
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Qbert
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« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2005, 10:06:22 PM »

Quote
it's just that I have deal with the hate-spewing liberals


This is what infuriates me, that cons are so hell bent on name calling.

you're either a con, or some dirty mongrel liberal.  you might as well say (while foaming at the mouth) "join my party...or die"
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