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Author Topic: Book Of Daniel...  (Read 3640 times)
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Harpua3
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« on: January 30, 2006, 09:26:58 AM »

Well, first of all... I didn`t plan on watching this until I heard some people crying over it before the first episode aired. I watched and enjoyed the full 2 hours of its premiere. Great show. Funny, interesting, easy timeslot to keep ( one would think...). The wife and I watching 2 or 3 more hour long weeks of this very intertaining show. After last years episode they advertised for next weeks. Next week comes around, and ... they say "catch the remaining episodes on nbc.com"... Uggg.

 If you poke around the forums over there on NBC, or watch the news...you`ll see all of the crazy people that bitched about this show and got it canned. It showed a family with religion in their lives, but the catch was the family wan`t perfect. The Dad, addiction to "pills", and talks to Jesus...literally. Jesus`s part is/was written well, funny, and tasteful. The daughter got caught selling pot. The one kid is gay, and the another is asian and adopted. The house keeper smokes pot for her medical condition. The mom drinks boatloads... The whole show was very tastleful though, and very entertaining.
 
 Anyone else like this show until they pulled it? Oh and BTW you can watch all of the unaired episodes on nbc.com every friday night I believe until they are all gone. I`m suprised there hasn`t been a topic of this here yet.

 Don`t like it, don`t watch it...right? You`d think so anyway...
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2006, 10:26:05 AM »

I didnt watch it, but I really don't watch TV.  However, it sounded like your typical sitcom, with Jesus as a character.  Fine with me, actually.

IMO, there is really little difference between mentalities of the Islamists and the Christian fundamentalists in this country.  One blows up buses and discos, the other abortion clinics and Federal buildings.  One is preaching the West wants the destruction of Islam, the other is preaching that there is a war against Christmas.  The only difference is the radicals on one side has had a few decades of a head start, whereas our homegrown radicals have kind of been sidelined as a force until the past several years.

They basically swift-boated this show in the same manner they did the Reagan miniseries.  It shows how weak a belief system is when it can't stand up to a little scrutiny.
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Zinfan
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2006, 10:49:03 PM »

I watched it and thought they were trying too hard by throwing everything at the viewer.  Jesus (who IMO didn't really do much in the show), the pill addicted priest, hard drinking mother, drug selling daughter who also is a anime artist, gay son who sleeps with a girl so as not to let her down, adopted asian boy who sleeps with daughter of family friend,  priest's father who is a bishop married to an Alzihmer suffer and also sleeping with son's boss (a female bishop), Cathloic priest with ties to orginized crime, sister in law getting into a lesbian love affair after her husband runs off with 3 million dollars for school.  All that in about 2 eposides and it just didn't click with me, in no way was I ever offended by the content just not entertained.
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2006, 11:08:57 PM »

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unbreakable
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2006, 12:44:12 AM »

Which I suppose begets the strange observation, why is God more versatile of a character than Jesus?

Better agent?  Or is Jesus just type-cast?
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2006, 01:37:00 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Which I suppose begets the strange observation, why is God more versatile of a character than Jesus?

Jesus is religion specific, God is not.

I thought the adverts for Book of Daniel made it look like a lousy Desperate Housewives knock-off with an unhealthy helping of religious controversy.  It seemed that it was trying way too hard to get noticed, for better or worse.  I figured it wasn't long for this world, and seeing its fate, I'm ultimately glad I didn't bother getting into it.
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Qbe
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2006, 03:28:25 AM »

Disclaimer: I am not a Christian fundamentalist, nor do I like some aspects of Christian fundamentalism in America, nor have I ever seen this show.  I don't have time for TV.

Quote from: "unbreakable"
IMO, there is really little difference between mentalities of the Islamists and the Christian fundamentalists in this country.  One blows up buses and discos, the other abortion clinics and Federal buildings.  One is preaching the West wants the destruction of Islam, the other is preaching that there is a war against Christmas.  The only difference is the radicals on one side has had a few decades of a head start, whereas our homegrown radicals have kind of been sidelined as a force until the past several years.


I find the smug attempt to link Christians with Islamic terrorists based on the common word "fundamentalists" to be offensive.  It may allow some to feel intellectually superior, but is intellectually dishonest.  

But hey, why not put your money where your mouth is?  Let's hear some stats.  How many federal buildings have Christian fundamentalists bombed in the last week?  month?  year?  decade?  Name one and I'll Paypal you 5 bucks.  And before you bring up Oklahoma City, be sure to provide documentation stating that McVeigh was a "Christian fundamentalist".  

How many abortion clinics have Christian fundamentalists bombed in the last week?  month?  year?  decade?  If you bother to take a look at the statistics, violence against abortion clinics--whether from "Christian fundamentalists" or not--has dropped sharply over the last 10 years.

How many Christian sects pay stipends to the families of Christian fundamentalists who have blown themselves up to kill infidels?

Oh wait, none.  That's because Christianity does not support, condone or encourage such activity.  The vast majority of Christians openly condemn these things, and Christian leaders openly and immediately speak out against them on the extremely rare occasions when they happen.  Muslims and Muslim leaders are disturbingly silent when their fundamentalists blow up themselves and others on a far more frequent basis.

How many Christian fundamentalist sects have dedicated themselves to the destruction of an entire nation or religion?  How many Christian fundamentalist sects actively recruit people to blow up themselves or others?  Again, none.  The fact is, you're far safer here with Christian fundamentalists than you would be in some parts of the Middle East with its Islamic fundamentalists.  Christian fundamentalists may not agree with your beliefs or lifestyle, but they aren't going to kill you for them.

As for the TV show, maybe NBC could get away with it if they'd play more fairly.  To help out, I'd like to propose a few new TV shows myself:

1.  How about a sitcom where Gandhi and MLK Jr. run a whorehouse; every week a different world leader shows up as a paying customer.  It could be called "World Piece".

2.  "72": a drama which shows an hour-by-hour of the last 3 days of an Islamic suicide bomber's road to the 72 virgins.  Mohammed sits on one shoulder and eggs him on; Jesus sits on the other and tries to discourage him.  As he pushes the button, Mohammed laughs and says, "Just kidding!"

3.  "Red Wings": a comedy-drama where a lesbian black female dope-smoking Democratic president holds daily briefings--and other activities--with Satan in the Oval Office, getting some job direction and a little personal satisfaction too.

What?  These are offensive?  News flash: maybe, just maybe, a large segment of the American TV-viewing population finds it offensive to have Jesus treated as a "sitcom character" and almost every member of the clergy portrayed as a drug addict, pervert, criminal, psycho, molester, idiot and/or clown.  And maybe, just maybe, advertisers aren't too willing to fund shows which alienate large numbers of potential viewers.

Quote from: "Harpua3"
Don`t like it, don`t watch it...right? You`d think so anyway...


Bingo.  Advertisers aren't going to fund a show nobody watches.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2006, 01:39:36 AM »

Cool, I struck a nerve!

When someone gets that pissed off, I know I have stated a 'fundamental' truth.
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Gwar21
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2006, 01:45:32 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
When someone gets that pissed off, I know I have stated a 'fundamental' truth.


So, if someone said your mother was a whore and you were angered, does that mean they hit a fundamental truth?    :roll:  There are many things which can cause a length response.  Defamation of character is one of them.
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Qbe
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2006, 01:55:20 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Cool, I struck a nerve!

When someone gets that pissed off, I know I have stated a 'fundamental' truth.


Actually, the problem was the lack of truth in your statement; groundless undeserved slander can be just as irritating as an undesired truth.  But you avoided the real question (about the basis of the slander), so I'll repeat:

Why not put your money where your mouth is? Let's hear some stats. How many federal buildings have Christian fundamentalists bombed in the last week? month? year? decade? Name one and I'll Paypal you 5 bucks. And before you bring up Oklahoma City, be sure to provide documentation stating that McVeigh was a "Christian fundamentalist".

How many abortion clinics have Christian fundamentalists bombed in the last week? month? year? decade? If you bother to take a look at the statistics, violence against abortion clinics--whether from "Christian fundamentalists" or not--has dropped sharply over the last 10 years.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2006, 02:17:32 AM »

Quote from: "Qbe"
Why not put your money where your mouth is? Let's hear some stats. How many federal buildings have Christian fundamentalists bombed in the last week? month? year? decade? Name one and I'll Paypal you 5 bucks. And before you bring up Oklahoma City, be sure to provide documentation stating that McVeigh was a "Christian fundamentalist".


One was enough.  And you can do your own research: there is a really big wide intarweb out there for you to use.

Quote
How many abortion clinics have Christian fundamentalists bombed in the last week? month? year? decade? If you bother to take a look at the statistics, violence against abortion clinics--whether from "Christian fundamentalists" or not--has dropped sharply over the last 10 years.


So that means it's ok?  How many Jews or Blacks were killed in the past 50 years?  Does that make crimes targetting them any more justifiable?

Quote
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero (42B.C)


Beware the enemy within your gates, my friend.
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Qbe
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2006, 02:28:01 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Qbe"
Why not put your money where your mouth is? Let's hear some stats. How many federal buildings have Christian fundamentalists bombed?


One was enough.  And you can do your own research: there is a really big wide intarweb out there for you to use.


You have accused "Christian fundamentalists" of bombing federal buildings, yet you won't back up your accusation.  This is unjustified slander.

Quote
Quote
How many abortion clinics have Christian fundamentalists bombed in the last week? month? year? decade? If you bother to take a look at the statistics, violence against abortion clinics--whether from "Christian fundamentalists" or not--has dropped sharply over the last 10 years.


So that means it's ok?  How many Jews or Blacks were killed in the past 50 years?  Does that make crimes targetting them any more justifiable?


Your point being.... or are you accusing "Christian fundamentalists" of killing Jews and blacks too?  Wow.  Care to document that?

Quote
Beware the enemy within your gates, my friend.


Yawn.  I'd rather read your documentation backing up the accusations you made.
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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2006, 02:57:51 AM »

Quote from: "Qbe"
You have accused "Christian fundamentalists" of bombing federal buildings, yet you won't back up your accusation.  This is unjustified slander.


I'll await your summons into court.

Quote
Quote
Quote
How many abortion clinics have Christian fundamentalists bombed in the last week? month? year? decade? If you bother to take a look at the statistics, violence against abortion clinics--whether from "Christian fundamentalists" or not--has dropped sharply over the last 10 years.


So that means it's ok?  How many Jews or Blacks were killed in the past 50 years?  Does that make crimes targetting them any more justifiable?


Your point being.... or are you accusing "Christian fundamentalists" of killing Jews and blacks too?  Wow.  Care to document that?


Care to keep taking shit out of context?

And besides, both the Nazis and the KKK were Christian extremists.  One might even call them... fundamentalists...

Quote
Quote
Beware the enemy within your gates, my friend.


Yawn.  I'd rather read your documentation backing up the accusations you made.


Cry more, noob.
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Qbe
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2006, 03:13:26 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Cool, I struck a nerve!

When someone gets that pissed off, I know I have stated a 'fundamental' truth.
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2006, 03:33:35 AM »

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Qbe
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2006, 03:38:05 AM »



Heh.  Noob?  I was arguing with Christian fundamentalists on the internet while you were still in diapers.  :wink:
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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2006, 03:51:14 AM »

Ah, I see the confusion.  You are always replying to posts on a delay.

Or is it one of those "Damn!  I wish I would have said..." scenarios?


At any rate, my intention isnt to argue with anyone.  Honestly, I could care less what you think.  I'm not looking to convert anyone to my point of view.

And I was probably in diapers far longer ago than you think.
And your pic doesnt work.
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Laner
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2006, 03:58:02 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"

And besides, both the Nazis and the KKK were Christian extremists.  One might even call them... fundamentalists...


They are hardly Christians - they may have claimed they were, but you kinda have to follow the basic tenents of a religion to justifiably identify yourself as such.  Which neither group did/does.  I may believe I'm a platypus, but just claiming that doesn't make it so.

On a side note, I'm amused how the term "Christian Fundamentalist" is spat out as some kind of curse these days.  Geez, if the worst you could say about a follower of a religion is that they deeply believe in the "fundamentals" of their faith, that's not a particularly damning charge against them.
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Vikki
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2006, 04:00:38 AM »

Unbreakable, I just do not understand you.  You make a what appears to be a broad reaching bigoted remark and when someone calls you on it you respond with statements like "do your own research".   Qbe was giving you a chance to explain how you are able to paint an entire group of people with the same brush, but you avoided answering him.  If you cannot back up your opinions with objective truth you just look like an intolerant bigot.   Reading your post actually embrasses me for you.
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2006, 04:18:54 AM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Quote from: "unbreakable"

And besides, both the Nazis and the KKK were Christian extremists.  One might even call them... fundamentalists...


They are hardly Christians - they may have claimed they were, but you kinda have to follow the basic tenents of a religion to justifiably identify yourself as such.  Which neither group did/does.  I may believe I'm a platypus, but just claiming that doesn't make it so.


I think that, having been raised in the south as a Christian fundamentalist, I can probably weigh in on this.

Look back in history at the way the KKK was such a large part of the white Christian community for the immediate decades following emancipation in the US.

Frankly, with my familiarity with Islam, the militant terrorist muslims are just as Islamic as the KKK is Christian.  Both groups claim to be doing God/Allah's work, but neither truly is.  The average day-to-day Christians/Muslims are much better representatives of their faith.
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Qbe
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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2006, 04:21:15 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Ah, I see the confusion.  You are always replying to posts on a delay.

Or is it one of those "Damn!  I wish I would have said..." scenarios?


None of the above.


Quote
At any rate, my intention isnt to argue with anyone.  Honestly, I could care less what you think.


That is obvious (though I would assume that you really "couldn't care less").

I've simply been trying to find out the justification for equating Christian fundamentalists with Islamic terrorists, because I've heard it a number of times recently.  You have not been willing or able to demonstrate any evidence for doing so.  It seems to be a matter of faith.

There's more irony here, but this horse is already dead.
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2006, 04:25:24 AM »

Quote from: "Qbe"
I've simply been trying to find out the justification for equating Christian fundamentalists with Islamic terrorists, because I've heard it a number of times recently.  You have not been willing or able to demonstrate any evidence for doing so.  It seems to be a matter of faith.


Let me get this straight: You are unable to figure out why people equate one group of religious extremists with another group of religious extremists?
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2006, 04:28:43 AM »

Quote from: "Farscry_Redux"
I think that, having been raised in the south as a Christian fundamentalist, I can probably weigh in on this.

Look back in history at the way the KKK was such a large part of the white Christian community for the immediate decades following emancipation in the US.

Frankly, with my familiarity with Islam, the militant terrorist muslims are just as Islamic as the KKK is Christian.  Both groups claim to be doing God/Allah's work, but neither truly is.  The average day-to-day Christians/Muslims are much better representatives of their faith.


Ah, there is just no substitute for talking to someone with first-hand knowledge.
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Qbe
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2006, 04:31:15 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Qbe"
I've simply been trying to find out the justification for equating Christian fundamentalists with Islamic terrorists, because I've heard it a number of times recently.  You have not been willing or able to demonstrate any evidence for doing so.  It seems to be a matter of faith.


Let me get this straight: You are unable to figure out why people equate one group of religious extremists with another group of religious extremists?


Actually, I'm unable to figure out how you justify accusing Christian fundamentalists of bombing federal buildings.
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2006, 04:48:45 AM »

Since you are too damn lazy to do your own damn research, you owe me five dollars.
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2006, 04:55:06 AM »

From the description of the Off-Topic forum:
Quote
Talk about anything you want, just don't be an ass about it.

This discussion can certainly continue as long as it remains civil.  While I personally think it's tasteless and uninformed to imply that Christian Fundamentalists are the equivalent of terrorists (and I'm not a fundamentalist) it doesn't cross the Ass-line in my book.  Feel free to discuss the issues but if things go in a personal direction I'll lock the thread.
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2006, 04:59:17 AM »

BBC News

Quote
While on death row, McVeigh asked a friend to pass on to a London newspaper a three-page letter detailing why he carried out the bombing.
 
In the letter, entitled "Why I bombed the Murrah building", he explains that he lost patience after waiting for the government to apologise for Waco. "I reached the decision to go on the offensive - to put a check on government abuse of power, where others had failed in stopping the federal juggernaut running amok," he said.

"Borrowing a page from US foreign policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building and the government employees within that building who represent that government."
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2006, 05:01:10 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Since you are too damn lazy to do your own damn research, you owe me five dollars.

Insults like calling Qbe "damn lazy" are not going to be tolerated.  Consider yourself warned.

Unbreakable did you read the article you posted?
Quote
So when did the media begin to routinely portray McVeigh as a Christian terrorist? Right after 9-11. Here are two early examples: On Sept. 17, 2001, a San Francisco Chronicle columnist blurted: "The hijackers are no more typical Muslims than Timothy McVeigh is a typical Christian." On Oct. 4, a USA Today columnist picked up the refrain, describing Sept. 11 terrorists as having "more in common with Timothy McVeigh, whose twisted paramilitary take on Christian retribution led him to avenge the Davidians' death."

Timothy McVeigh, Christian terrorist. How has such a patent falsehood spread so quickly and easily through responsible media? Evidently the psychic need to equate Christian fundamentalists, millions of whom have lived peacefully in America since its founding, with radical Islamic terrorists who commit mass murder simply overwhelmed standards of journalism. Or, one might add, common decency.

Pay close attention to the last two sentences of the article you posted.
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2006, 05:03:21 AM »

It's Religious Fundamentalism, Stupid

(not an insult, that is actually the book's title)

So.  Do you owe me $15, or just $5?

[edit- I guess it would be $10, since one of them was only an opinion piece.]
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2006, 05:04:57 AM »

Quote from: "warning"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Since you are too damn lazy to do your own damn research, you owe me five dollars.

Insults like calling Qbe "damn lazy" are not going to be tolerated.  Consider yourself warned.

Unbreakable did you read the article you posted?
Quote
So when did the media begin to routinely portray McVeigh as a Christian terrorist? Right after 9-11. Here are two early examples: On Sept. 17, 2001, a San Francisco Chronicle columnist blurted: "The hijackers are no more typical Muslims than Timothy McVeigh is a typical Christian." On Oct. 4, a USA Today columnist picked up the refrain, describing Sept. 11 terrorists as having "more in common with Timothy McVeigh, whose twisted paramilitary take on Christian retribution led him to avenge the Davidians' death."

Timothy McVeigh, Christian terrorist. How has such a patent falsehood spread so quickly and easily through responsible media? Evidently the psychic need to equate Christian fundamentalists, millions of whom have lived peacefully in America since its founding, with radical Islamic terrorists who commit mass murder simply overwhelmed standards of journalism. Or, one might add, common decency.

Pay close attention to the last two sentences of the article you posted.


That was an opinion piece.  I have posted two more credible sources.

And seeing as how everyone has the exact same access to google, I do happen to find an unwillingness to at least look there and click a few links to be quite lazy.  Not that I'm being insulting or trying to provoke anybody, that is just my feelings in the matter.

I have had far more insulting things said to me in this here very forum (different server, however), and not seen anyone warned.  Which is neither here nor there, but as far as insults would go, I consider my words to have been extremely mellow.  But insulting was not my intent.
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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2006, 05:19:12 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "warning"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Since you are too damn lazy to do your own damn research, you owe me five dollars.

Insults like calling Qbe "damn lazy" are not going to be tolerated.  Consider yourself warned.

Unbreakable did you read the article you posted?
Quote
So when did the media begin to routinely portray McVeigh as a Christian terrorist? Right after 9-11. Here are two early examples: On Sept. 17, 2001, a San Francisco Chronicle columnist blurted: "The hijackers are no more typical Muslims than Timothy McVeigh is a typical Christian." On Oct. 4, a USA Today columnist picked up the refrain, describing Sept. 11 terrorists as having "more in common with Timothy McVeigh, whose twisted paramilitary take on Christian retribution led him to avenge the Davidians' death."

Timothy McVeigh, Christian terrorist. How has such a patent falsehood spread so quickly and easily through responsible media? Evidently the psychic need to equate Christian fundamentalists, millions of whom have lived peacefully in America since its founding, with radical Islamic terrorists who commit mass murder simply overwhelmed standards of journalism. Or, one might add, common decency.

Pay close attention to the last two sentences of the article you posted.


That was an opinion piece.  I have posted two more credible sources.

It was an opinion piece you posted.  I assumed you had read it before you posted it.  You didn't?

Again I'll refer you to the last two sentences of the article that you posted.  Really.  Read them.  Stereotypes and sweeping generalizations are never cool.

As far as insults - here's my two cents.  For a while threads on politics and religion weren't even allowed here.  Why?  Because of the tendency for them to become attack-fests among other reasons.  We've allowed them (and started and/or posted in them) here for over a year and so far so good.  But because they are such hot-button threads they get an extra close eyeballing from me and the other mods here.  Best to play it safe and boring or we run the risk of these subjects being prohibited in discussion here.

Capiche?

Now I'm off to lay the smack down on the Strogg in Quake 4.
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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2006, 06:34:17 AM »

I was attempting to post something resembling research.

As I have ALREADY said, I posted two more credible sources.  I posted them before you pointed out that article.

That was an opinion piece.  My next one was a news articles, featuring MR. MCVEIGH'S OWN WORDS.  The next one was to a book on the subject; since it was not self-published, it bears a certain amount of credibility.

So no, I only glanced at the first link I posted.  My intention was to post SOMETHING, since that is how research works.  You read what you can, and weight each thing by it's credibility.  To me, anyway, citing the words of the man himself is pretty darn credible.  Far more credible than an opinion piece in some crappy website, written by someone with an agenda to push.

And let's also not forget a post by one of our very own forum members, with first-hand experience in Christian fundamentalism, who agreed with me.

But hey, what difference does factual information make?  Carry on blasting at me if it makes you feel better.
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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2006, 07:01:12 AM »

Crusades.

Conquistadors.

Jonestown.

Birth Control Clinic Bombings.

The list goes on.

Frankly, I think the Devil is often portrayed in a strange and darkly humorous role in any shows he's in.  Unless he's the main villian, he's usually very humanized and often with funny lines to offset the fact that he is quite evil.

My favorite portrayal of the devil on TV was an old show called Brimstone.  It starred the actor who is currently Luthor Sr on Smallville as the devil, kinda fitting eh?
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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2006, 07:48:56 AM »

I guess I shouldn`t have posted about this...Sorry mods...

 Anywho, since it`s already out there, I`ll add a bit...

 This thread proves something else too... This is really not directed at anyone at all, really I mean that. But, wow this post got all "crazy" too. What about this subject matter makes people go nuts ( sorry guys :wink: )?

 That`s what I didn`t get about it in the first place.
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Turtle
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« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2006, 09:18:25 AM »

When entertainment and religion meet, only bloodshed follows.  Tongue
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Qbe
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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2006, 12:18:52 PM »

Since I need to leave for work, I can only deal with this briefly until evening:

Quote from: "unbreakable"
I was attempting to post something resembling research.

As I have ALREADY said, I posted two more credible sources.  I posted them before you pointed out that article.

That was an opinion piece.  My next one was a news articles, featuring MR. MCVEIGH'S OWN WORDS.  The next one was to a book on the subject; since it was not self-published, it bears a certain amount of credibility.

So no, I only glanced at the first link I posted.  My intention was to post SOMETHING, since that is how research works.  You read what you can, and weight each thing by it's credibility.  To me, anyway, citing the words of the man himself is pretty darn credible.


I read the BBC news article and really don't see what words of McVeigh's show him to be a "Christian fundamentalist."

Actually, the article mentions Lou Michel, who interviewed McVeigh in preparation for writing "American Terrorist".  Michel had this to say:

Quote
McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn't believe in God, but he won't rule out the possibility. I asked him, "What if there is a heaven and hell?"

He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will -- and this is using his military jargon -- "adapt, improvise, and overcome." Death to him is all part of the adventure.


As for the book: have you read it?  Can you give a little more information about its content or summarize its arguments?  It really isn't sufficient simply to toss out the title of a book which alleges to prove your point--at least, I never would have gotten away with that in my research papers.

Show me the undeniable proof and I'll send you your five bucks.  Simply calling me lazy and telling me to prove your accusation isn't going to cut it.


Quote

And let's also not forget a post by one of our very own forum members, with first-hand experience in Christian fundamentalism, who agreed with me.


Interesting: I didn't get the impression that his words actually agree with you:

Quote from: "Farscry_Redux"
Frankly, with my familiarity with Islam, the militant terrorist muslims are just as Islamic as the KKK is Christian. Both groups claim to be doing God/Allah's work, but neither truly is. The average day-to-day Christians/Muslims are much better representatives of their faith.



Quote

But hey, what difference does factual information make?  Carry on blasting at me if it makes you feel better.


Factual information is the only thing that makes a difference.  That was my point from the beginning.
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warning
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« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2006, 12:42:20 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
I was attempting to post something resembling research.

As I have ALREADY said, I posted two more credible sources.  I posted them before you pointed out that article.

That was an opinion piece.  My next one was a news articles, featuring MR. MCVEIGH'S OWN WORDS.  The next one was to a book on the subject; since it was not self-published, it bears a certain amount of credibility.

Unbreakable I'm sure we could go on all day about this but it really looks to me like your just googling up links and posting them without much thought.  Your first article actually argues against your point.  Then there's your book (link).  You say it bears a certain amount of credibility since it's not self published and yet if you scroll down under Product Details you'll find that the publisher is listed as "John Max Morell" who happens to be the author.

Feel free to continue posting links all you'd like.  Nevertheless my point stands: stereotypes and sweeping generalizations aren't cool.  They aren't cool when Muslim fundamentalists are stereotyped as "sand niggers" and "towel-heads" and they aren't cool when Christian fundamentalists are stereotyped as terrorists.  The fact that there are idiots and dangerous, mentally unstable people who are fundamentalist Christians doesn't mean all fundamentalist Christians are idiots and dangerous, mentally unstable people.

I'll even back up my assertion with an example I'm personally familiar with.  In St. Louis when I was growing up the Reverend Larry Rice was something of a local legend.  Would you care to read about him for a moment?  I think he's an excellent example of a fundamentalist Christian who has done more good for our world than probably all of us here combined.  http://www.missionofexcellence.com/larryricebio.htm  Amazingly enough he probably agrees with you on many if not most political issues!

How about Evangelicals for Social Action?  Or evangelical author Ronald Sider who has written numerous books including the classic "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger".  Or the Christian Alliance for Progress (http://www.christianalliance.org)?

If I had time I could probably find 10 or 100 more examples of people and organizations like these for every abortion clinic bomber out there.
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« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2006, 01:23:29 PM »

Quote from: "Harpua3"
I guess I shouldn`t have posted about this...Sorry mods...

No apologies necessary.  Although I didn't see the show it certainly was a conversation-starter!  Tongue

Quote from: "Harpua3"
What about this subject matter makes people go nuts ( sorry guys :wink: )?

I don't know really.  People feel passionate about either believing or not believing.  Passion sometimes clouds our minds and makes us argue our points a little too strongly and too one-sided.

You wanna see me get really riled up?  Insult Planescape: Torment sometime.   :wink:
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Arkon
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« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2006, 01:59:36 PM »

Quote from: "warning"
Quote from: "Harpua3"
I guess I shouldn`t have posted about this...Sorry mods...

No apologies necessary.  Although I didn't see the show it certainly was a conversation-starter!  Tongue

Quote from: "Harpua3"
What about this subject matter makes people go nuts ( sorry guys :wink: )?

I don't know really.  People feel passionate about either believing or not believing.  Passion sometimes clouds our minds and makes us argue our points a little too strongly and too one-sided.

You wanna see me get really riled up?  Insult Planescape: Torment sometime.   :wink:


Planescape: Torment... the dialog simulator that never should have been...







 biggrin
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Farscry
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« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2006, 04:58:41 PM »

Quote from: "Qbe"
Interesting: I didn't get the impression that his words actually agree with you:

Quote from: "Farscry_Redux"
Frankly, with my familiarity with Islam, the militant terrorist muslims are just as Islamic as the KKK is Christian. Both groups claim to be doing God/Allah's work, but neither truly is. The average day-to-day Christians/Muslims are much better representatives of their faith.



Quote

But hey, what difference does factual information make?  Carry on blasting at me if it makes you feel better.


Factual information is the only thing that makes a difference.  That was my point from the beginning.


I'm not sure what exactly you were responding with to my comments.   :?:  I thought I made it clear that I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, which was meant to show that fundamentalism =/= terrorists.  I'm not a terrorist, so... *shrugs*

What I was trying to point out, having grown up in KKK country, is that there are groups from every religion that twist and pervert the message that they believe into something quite the contrary.

The Quran doesn't tell followers of Islam to go "strappeth yon explosives amongst thy bosom and detonateth thyself amongst yon heathen womens and childrens", nor does the Bible tell Christians to go and "stringeth up the peoples of colour by their necks, with ten twists of the rope ye have consecrated in all corners of the temple".

Christianity and Islam both have very nasty and unpleasant episodes in their past and present from people who claimed to have been doing their deeds in the name of God/Allah.
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