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Author Topic: Batman Begins?  (Read 5166 times)
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Calvin
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2005, 06:09:53 PM »

Quote from: "Dafones"
I always thought a younger Alec Baldwin would have made an awesome Batman.


Only if it was before the camp set into his acting.

As for Bale-well, lets just say before this movie I was rather fanatically against Bale as batman. I have an odd dislike for Christian Bale, based mainly on what I thought was one of the worst "good" movies in recent memory, American Psycho. either way, he totally redeemed himself in my eyes.

I now think he is the best guy to ever play the role. I still stick to my original, and wildly unpopular feeling that Val Kilmer was the second best batman. He just captured the odd haunted feeling that Bruce Wayne should have and did a good job in the Batsuit.

Anyways, more thoughts on the movies when I can make myself type.
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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2005, 10:51:32 PM »

Quote from: "Rage"
As for Bale-well, lets just say before this movie I was rather fanatically against Bale as batman. I have an odd dislike for Christian Bale, based mainly on what I thought was one of the worst "good" movies in recent memory, American Psycho. either way, he totally redeemed himself in my eyes.


Never saw American Psycho, but seeing Equilibrium made me know that he could pull this type of role off.
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« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2005, 08:37:56 AM »

Oh man, I just got back from the theatre ... and I DID NOT LIKE THIS MOVIE! I am so choked. I wanted to love it, but so much of it felt wrong. Just wrong. I'm so surprised, because everyone else seems to have really enjoyed themselves - friends, media, internet. So much of the dialogues and the themes were so blatant, so forced. FEAR FEAR FEAR - the city is falling apart - you have to do something - remember Thomas Wayne. Every five minutes. Fuck, try a little subtlety, Goyer. Ugh, so much frustration.

Wayne seemed like one of the many ninjas he trained with, not the ultimate ninja badass. The Batmobile is not supposed to be a tank that obliterates the city Batman is trying to save - it puts Michael Bay's Bad Boys Hummer to shame. The Batmobile is a sleek getaway car, a vehicle that mirrors Batman himself. Bad guys do not spout out monologues while a house burns down around them. I would assume bad guys would think about their initiates through a little more before they intend on taking over the world, before they train them. People don't get into polarized rants that explain their personal beliefs that mirror current themes at the drop of a hat.

So choked. I guess I'll just have to write a better Batman movie myself.

I'm going to go read my Year One TPB and cry myself to sleep.
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« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2005, 02:48:06 PM »

Quote from: "Dafones"
Bad guys do not spout out monologues while a house burns down around them. I would assume bad guys would think about their initiates through a little more before they intend on taking over the world, before they train them. People don't get into polarized rants that explain their personal beliefs that mirror current themes at the drop of a hat.


People do not spend their adult life and billion-dollar fortune learning how to fight crime dressed as a bat...
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« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2005, 05:26:23 PM »

Ha ha, true. But I don't get the sense that I'm nitpicking, I really don't. So much of the movie's dialogue bugged me, as did much of the repeatedly hammered out themes. I mean it, I cannot believe how bluntly the themes of the movie were constantly explored. There was no subtlety. When Bruce was flying home from "Asia"(?), I couldn't believe him repeating Ducard's speech almost line for line. Fuck, Batman is all internal!

But I think you're a missing something, crayola, missing why, ultimately, so many people are drawn to Batman. He does what many of us wish we could do. He's a shitkicker in the name of good. He's the gunslinger that everyone underestimates. He's the hidden Jedi that you didn't know about until it's too late. And he's brutal. He's going to fuck you up because you deserve it.

And he hates. I think that's why I disliked the movie as I did, because I've always felt that Batman was driven by hate so much more than fear. Fear wasn't an issue - it was overcoming his hate, his rage, his neverending desire to simply crush any criminal's skull for being the kind of individual who killed his parents that was his true obstacle. Because of this, perhapse the Scarecrow was not the best choice to have as "badguy" for this particular origin story.

I want to see it again though. I want to see if I buy the movie.
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« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2005, 06:25:21 PM »

Quote from: "Dafones"
Ha ha, true. But I don't get the sense that I'm nitpicking, I really don't. So much of the movie's dialogue bugged me, as did much of the repeatedly hammered out themes. I mean it, I cannot believe how bluntly the themes of the movie were constantly explored. There was no subtlety. When Bruce was flying home from "Asia"(?), I couldn't believe him repeating Ducard's speech almost line for line. Fuck, Batman is all internal!

But I think you're a missing something, crayola, missing why, ultimately, so many people are drawn to Batman. He does what many of us wish we could do. He's a shitkicker in the name of good. He's the gunslinger that everyone underestimates. He's the hidden Jedi that you didn't know about until it's too late. And he's brutal. He's going to fuck you up because you deserve it.

And he hates. I think that's why I disliked the movie as I did, because I've always felt that Batman was driven by hate so much more than fear. Fear wasn't an issue - it was overcoming his hate, his rage, his neverending desire to simply crush any criminal's skull for being the kind of individual who killed his parents that was his true obstacle. Because of this, perhapse the Scarecrow was not the best choice to have as "badguy" for this particular origin story.

I want to see it again though. I want to see if I buy the movie.


The speech Bruce gives to Alfred during the plane ride back to Gotham is necessary for this particular story.  Bruce needs to articulate to Alfred what he intends to do with the rest of his life and not come off as completely crazy.  I would say the established veteran Batman is all internal, but Year One Batman needs to get Alfred on-board with the whole crime-fighting deal.  

I thought Scarecrow was a perfect villian for the origin story.  The whole reason for dressing up as a bat is to elicit fear.  What better villian to use than one who also uses fear as a weapon?
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« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2005, 12:22:31 AM »

It was just too much fear. Seriously. To much talk about fear. Have Scarecrow as the villain in the second or third movie, have him turn the tables on the vigilante that uses scare tactics.

As for the airplane speech, I just wish Bruce hadn't been so on the nose, so blunt. That's my mane gripe with the movie, the dialogue had no subtlety, no nuance. Just direct ideas, philosophies, exposition, beliefs, mantras, etc.

I'm going to see the movie again though, and soon. Maybe a matine on Friday, just on my own.
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« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2005, 02:41:24 AM »

A little late to the party, but saw the movie tonight.

It was good.....Not better than Spidey 2, but I liked the 'dark' theme to it, and most of the characters.

Recommended.  thumbsup
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« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2005, 03:33:32 AM »

I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and right now Batman Begins stands, for me, as the best movie I've seen this year. The "giddy" factor I once felt for Star Wars was, for the most part, redeemed by the sheer ass-kicking nature of Revenge of the Sith, but there was still a little bit off about it due to the suckage of the previous two. Batman Begins should add "with a Fucking Vengence" to the title to make it more complete. While "fear" was omnipresent throughout the movie, and endlessly belabored, it absolutely galvanized me in the theater in a way I haven't felt in years. I've seen it twice now and both times I can't contain my giddiness when he's spray painting the suit.

I witnessed the (re)birth of my personal favorite superhero, and the only one I followed to any major degree, and seeing how magnificently it was done, not to mention how realistically grounded it was, just made it an almost perfect movie for me. Katie Holmes, admittedly, was the weak link of the series, and I've heard the rumor of her being fired from the next one which, if true, paves the way for the introduction of Selina Kyle. If Selina is the "shadowy" love interest in the next one, provided they have a love interest, and Harvey Dent is the ADA, I'll have no complaints. Certainly not if they truely revamp the Joker with Paul Bettany.

Despite Holmes, I still give Batman Begins an A. Magnificent start to what I hope (and pray) is a masterfully handled franchise. Say what you will about the Spider-Man series, that is how you handle a franchise properly.
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« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2005, 06:47:36 AM »

I'm actually pumped for the rumoured story arc for sequel one and two, the first involving The Joker and D.A. Harvey Dent, and the second involving Dent's transformation into Two Face.
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« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2005, 04:10:36 PM »

What is the story behind the next installment.  They are doing a remake of The Joker?

Batman Begins is better IMO than Spiderman because of the darkness.  Spiderman is a very young magical "super-power" superhero, very unrealistic to me.  Batman however is a real man.  Nothing too special about him except for his wealth adn his motivation from his parents death.  Batman Begins really changed Batman from something ridiculous witht he Mr. Freeze and Ivy villans to something real.  Batman Begins is the most realistic superhero movie and for that I really liked it.
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« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2005, 04:45:30 PM »

Quote from: "Rage"
Quote from: "Dafones"
I always thought a younger Alec Baldwin would have made an awesome Batman.


I now think he is the best guy to ever play the role. I still stick to my original, and wildly unpopular feeling that Val Kilmer was the second best batman. He just captured the odd haunted feeling that Bruce Wayne should have and did a good job in the Batsuit.


I'd definately agree with you on that. I found Clooney to be wooden and devoid of any passion as Bruce. For instance, the scene where he finds out Alfred is dying, he's got a half-smile that doesn't exactly scream "stressed out". He was probably thinking of his paycheck in that shot.
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« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2005, 11:21:48 PM »

EP, the good ol' rumour mill has the Joker as the next villain, with Harvey Dent tracking him down alongside Batman. Check out www.batman-on-film.com for more rumours, but beware, cause thar be spoilers.
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« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2005, 04:07:34 AM »

The internet rumor mill has Nolan's frontrunner to play the Joker as Mark Hamill, the extremely popular voice of the Joker from the animated TV series.

That would be super cool.
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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2005, 06:26:42 AM »

Are you serious? I thought it was Paul Bettany, who I actually think would make an awesome Joker. A pic.
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2005, 09:52:53 AM »

Don't put much faith in internet rumors.

However, Mark Hamill is probably the best joker voice.  He tops Jack Nicholsen's joker voice, however Nicholson obviously out acts Hamill on the screen.

Also, the new joker may be considerably darker than the Joker we knew before, so Mark Hamill's cartoonish Joker voice probably won't work.

The thing I'm wondering is, how are they going to handle the giant rivalry between the Joker and Batman this time?  Originally, the Joker killed Batman's parents, but then Batman also created the Joker.
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« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2005, 01:22:12 PM »

Turtle, that was just in the first movie which was one of the dumber parts of that script. In the comics, Batman inadvertantly creates the Joker during a robbery chase. The Joker becomes the great arch-villain for Batman for many reasons, but chief among them is that he is so flat-out insane that he doesn't blink at the thought of killing millions. He has moments of pure focus which are immediately countered with his extreme insanity. Plus, the Joker isn't funny. So if they're going dark and doing the character justice, then one of the greatest villains ever could very well be re-born in front of us. For the record, I enjoyed Nicholson going over the top (who doesn't?), but that wasn't the Joker.
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« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2005, 06:35:04 PM »

I didn't know that the Joker was created by Batman in the comics. Didn't seem like he was created by Batman in Miller's Year One - more like he'd just shown up, like in BB.
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« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2005, 07:10:21 PM »

Joker's origins aren't covered in Year One (nor is he even featured in Year Two), but remember Year One didn't cover everything that happened that year. During the events of Year One, Batman foiled a heist at the Ace Card company that ended up chasing the bad guys into the chemical plant next door. These guys were part of the Red Hood gang -- three gangsters and the Red Hood, though in truth the Red Hood was just a guy in a mask, and a different guy everytime. This time, the Red Hood was a down-on-his-luck comic, who ended up falling into the chemical vats and emerging insane and as the Joker.

Or at least, that's how the Joker sometimes remembers his origin. He's so crazy, he's not exactly sure where he came from, though the Red Hood notion is pretty well established.

There's a new Red Hood in Gotham today. He's a violent vigilante who's first action was beating the crap out of the Joker. With a crowbar. Because the Joker did that to him once... before he tied him to a bomb. Welcome back, Jason. smile
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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2005, 09:05:40 PM »

Quote from: "Fireball1244"
There's a new Red Hood in Gotham today. He's a violent vigilante who's first action was beating the crap out of the Joker. With a crowbar. Because the Joker did that to him once... before he tied him to a bomb. Welcome back, Jason. smile


WHOA!!!! There is no fucking way they brought him back. You have got to be kidding me!!
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« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2005, 09:13:14 PM »

Nope, it seems that Jason Todd has finally come back from the dead (what a shock in comic world). I'd imagine someone dunked him in a Lazarus Pit.
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« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2005, 09:17:15 PM »

Wha .... you mean Robin II? Crazy cool weird.
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« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2005, 09:52:25 PM »

Okay, that just negates most of the power behind Batman's character from Todd's death up to the introduction of Tim Drake as Robin III. Not a shocker that someone who was "dead" isn't so much anymore, true, but that still is lame.
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« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2005, 09:57:01 PM »

Well Batman went nuts after Jason died, but that was over a decade ago, and he's long past that. When he discovered two years ago that Jason's body was missing, he sorta freaked out again, but its been quite busy since then.
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« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2005, 10:00:47 PM »

I've got the collected edition with the entire storyline of Jason's death and yeah, I recall him going nuts for a while. Also how he "killed" the Joker at the end of it. Somehow I wound up a while later picking up an issue that felt like a one-off but the last page was the reveal the Joker was alive and well in a hospital. But I can understand how that would be a sore spot for him still, even after surviving the events of Knightfall which, let's be honest, would put a dent in anyone's style. smile
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« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2005, 10:05:02 PM »

Just googling around a bit, and read up on the new Red Hood. I like how, at least in the current writer of Batman's eyes, the return of Jason forces Batman to face his greatest nightmares, his greatest failure, and also put himself upon the scales. To consider if he's really doing any good in Gotham. As well, Jason's return seems to be central to whatever's going on in the DC universe - whatever Countdown and Crisis are.
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« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2005, 12:40:01 AM »

Does nobody else realize how stupid it is that Jason Todd was brought back from the dead?  With the exception of wbs you all seem giddy about this turn of events, which is one of the worst things I have read in a long time.  If Batman suddenly had the ability to fly would you even blink?

I realize this is a fucking comic book, but to just wipe away what was such a great story and had such an impact on Batman...  There obviously isn't any originality left in Batworld.

If this isn't indicative of what in the hell is wrong with comics then I don't know what is.
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« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2005, 01:38:19 AM »

Quote from: "stiffler"
Does nobody else realize how stupid it is that Jason Todd was brought back from the dead?  With the exception of wbs you all seem giddy about this turn of events, which is one of the worst things I have read in a long time.  If Batman suddenly had the ability to fly would you even blink?


Batman has had people around him come back from the dead on numerous occasions -- including Ra's al Ghul. The notion of Jason's death really doesn't have any resonance for Batman anymore. He's basically been over it for years. This dredges it all back up, and gives Batman, effectively, a replacement villain for the immortal Ra's, who died for the last time (ha ha) about a year ago.

Quote
I realize this is a fucking comic book, but to just wipe away what was such a great story and had such an impact on Batman...


How does it wipe away? It all stems from it. Jason isn't a good guy anymore, because of what he went through due to what he now sees as "Bruce's weakness." It's a twist, to be sure, but its an interesting one. And it's been handled remarkably well. They teased us with this two years ago, and then reintroduced it very carefully. And they've got some of their best writers working on it (Judd Winnick).

Jason's return might not last beyond Infinite Crisis, but its one of the most genuinely surprising "returns" in the DC Universe in recent years.
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« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2005, 02:00:34 AM »

Jason Todd, Donna Troy and Hal Jordan all being back from the dead is supposedly key to the Infinite Crisis along with the "Trinity" of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.  I started up a thread somewhere around here talking about it, but it never really caught on.  Maybe I should update it.

I am not surprised Jason is alive especially with the swerve during Hush by Loeb.  Now they are saying it was indeed Todd that battled Batman during Hush and that Clayface was put in at the last moment.  Someone asked Jason how he came back alive in the last Batman issue and he kind of blew it off.  A Lazarus Pit dip usually brings about insanity like what happened with Riddler during Hush and Ra's on many occasions.  Jason hasn't shown any insane tendencies yet.
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« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2005, 02:17:05 AM »

Quote from: "AgtFox"
Jason Todd, Donna Troy and Hal Jordan all being back from the dead is supposedly key to the Infinite Crisis along with the "Trinity" of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.  I started up a thread somewhere around here talking about it, but it never really caught on.  Maybe I should update it.


Wait a second. I thought Hal Jordan came back during Zero Hour as the chief villain? Or has he died and been reborn since then?
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« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2005, 02:35:28 AM »

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
Quote from: "AgtFox"
Jason Todd, Donna Troy and Hal Jordan all being back from the dead is supposedly key to the Infinite Crisis along with the "Trinity" of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.  I started up a thread somewhere around here talking about it, but it never really caught on.  Maybe I should update it.


Wait a second. I thought Hal Jordan came back during Zero Hour as the chief villain? Or has he died and been reborn since then?


Hal hadn't died at that point. Hal died a few years after Zero Hour during the Final Night -- he sacrificed himself and all his power to reignite the Sun. He ended up in Purgatory, and for a brief time was the human incarnation of the Spectre -- the spirit of God's vengeance. He's now fully back from the dead, and restored as a Green Lantern (of which there now appear to be six or seven, as opposed to just John Stewart and Kyle Rayner as before).
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« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2005, 02:37:22 AM »

Quote from: "AgtFox"
Jason Todd, Donna Troy and Hal Jordan all being back from the dead is supposedly key to the Infinite Crisis along with the "Trinity" of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.  I started up a thread somewhere around here talking about it, but it never really caught on.  Maybe I should update it.


I wonder if any other than Hal will still be alive at the end of Infinite Crisis.

Quote
I am not surprised Jason is alive especially with the swerve during Hush by Loeb.


I was SO disappointed that it wasn't Jason in Hush, particularly given how that moment in the graveyard just hit me like a ton of bricks. After that, the real identity of Hush was something of a disappointment.

Quote
Now they are saying it was indeed Todd that battled Batman during Hush and that Clayface was put in at the last moment.  Someone asked Jason how he came back alive in the last Batman issue and he kind of blew it off.  A Lazarus Pit dip usually brings about insanity like what happened with Riddler during Hush and Ra's on many occasions.  Jason hasn't shown any insane tendencies yet.


The thing is, the insanity is only temporary, and it appears that Jason was brought back to life YEARS ago -- he's aged at least four or five years since his death. Which would be, what, about 10 years worth of issues? Maybe Jason's return is a long-unknown remnant of Zero Hour. ;-)
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« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2005, 03:10:37 AM »

Then who was the chief architect of the Zero Hour? I seem the remember that being an ex-Green Lantern. Also, do the comics masters, be it DC or Marvel, do a major revamp every few years and assign it the "Crisis in..." label? You and I had a talk some time ago about that and you said whenever the word "Crisis" appeared in the title of something, it was the most serious thing you would see in the comics world.
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« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2005, 03:47:08 AM »

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
Then who was the chief architect of the Zero Hour? I seem the remember that being an ex-Green Lantern.


It was Hal Jordan, but he didn't die at the end.

Quote
Also, do the comics masters, be it DC or Marvel, do a major revamp every few years and assign it the "Crisis in..." label? You and I had a talk some time ago about that and you said whenever the word "Crisis" appeared in the title of something, it was the most serious thing you would see in the comics world.


It is in the DC comics world. I don't think Marvel's ever had anything similar, though their Infinity books got to be something of the same scale, IIRC.
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« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2005, 06:57:16 AM »

(As a huge non-Batman fan who went and saw it tonight, "Batman Begins" blew me away.  What an awesome, awesome movie....)
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« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2005, 07:34:03 AM »

Quote from: "Dafones"
I didn't know that the Joker was created by Batman in the comics. Didn't seem like he was created by Batman in Miller's Year One - more like he'd just shown up, like in BB.


Did Joker start leaving card after he become Joker or he started before it so maybe that joker card in BB is from before he become joker then the sequel to BB will show how he become Joker?
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« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2005, 08:43:54 AM »

Well I was always under the impression that the Joker went with the playing card motif after his chemical bath, but the Jack Napier/Joker character in the '89 Batman opposes this. Then again I don't know the comics all that well, which makes this post kind of pointless.
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