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Author Topic: Ban on Gay Marriage a winner in 11 states.  (Read 16532 times)
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Butterknife
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« Reply #120 on: November 05, 2004, 08:47:35 PM »

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Homosexuality is equaivelant murder in your eyes?


Umm, No.  It was an example, chosen because it is a one-sided one, to prove a point, nothing more.
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Gratch
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« Reply #121 on: November 05, 2004, 08:49:28 PM »

Quote from: "Butterknife"
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If that is your understanding as well then what is the problem when the courts say that laws against gay marrige are unconstitutional?


I agree with you.  If the court says that laws against gay marriage are unconstitutional (Supreme Court will undoubtedly hear this one at some point in the near future) then I would support their decision.  Doesn't mean I would agree with it, but I would support it (hopefully that makes sense).


That's good to hear Butterknife.  While I don't agree with your opinion, you've at least taken some time to actually think about it, which is more than what most people do.

Unfortunately, I think you're probably the exception rather than the rule.  I just get the feeling many voters this year simply said, "Well, my pastor/bishop/magic tree frog says it's bad, so I better go cast my ballot accordingly!"
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Falator
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« Reply #122 on: November 05, 2004, 08:52:29 PM »

If the majority is always right i guess we better throw all interacial couples in jail because the majority was against that (ironically it was the same group too!).

Maybe we should just make it against the law to have homosexual thoughts? would that make you happy? :roll:

oh and the supreme court won't decide against a ban on gay marriage if Bush  adds a bunch of neo-cons to it. You might even find being homosexual unconstitutional in that case :lol:
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Sepiche
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« Reply #123 on: November 05, 2004, 09:03:02 PM »

Quote

If the majority is always right i guess we better throw all interacial couples in jail because the majority was against that (ironically it was the same group too!).

I wish more people could look at it like that and realize this will likely be one of those issues that we will look back on 30 years from now and laugh at how silly the country in general was for trying to attack the rights of a small portion of the populace.  The parallels are just too many to ignore. :|

s
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« Reply #124 on: November 05, 2004, 09:05:09 PM »

Butterknife, I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I really am trying to understand.

But I guess where I fail is, I just can't figure out why you think homosexuality is morally wrong.  I can understand if you find it personally distasteful, but morally wrong?  What moral absolute was violated?
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Butterknife
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« Reply #125 on: November 05, 2004, 09:09:51 PM »

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Well, my pastor/bishop/magic tree frog says it's bad, so I better go cast my ballot accordingly


I wish everybody would think before they vote!  People vote based on signs in their neighbors yards, for crying out loud frown

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If the majority is always right i guess we better ...


I don't believe anybody has said that.

Quote
I wish more people could look at it like that and realize this will likely be one of those issues that we will look back on 30 years from now and laugh at how silly the country in general was for trying to attack the rights of a small portion of the populace. The parallels are just too many to ignore.


You know, even though we're on opposite sides of this issue, I agree with you in that this won't matter in the future.  But of course, 30 years from now we'll be arguing about something else slywink
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Sepiche
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« Reply #126 on: November 05, 2004, 09:12:18 PM »

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But of course, 30 years from now we'll be arguing about something else

No we won't. biggrin

s
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Butterknife
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« Reply #127 on: November 05, 2004, 09:18:23 PM »

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Butterknife, I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I really am trying to understand.


My apologies if you felt my earlier comment was directed at you.  It was directed at the tone of the thread in general, towards religion.

Quote
But I guess where I fail is, I just can't figure out why you think homosexuality is morally wrong. I can understand if you find it personally distasteful, but morally wrong? What moral absolute was violated?


I wish I could help you to understand, but of course the fact is that it is almost impossible to understand the moral values of others.   For example, moral values (or lack thereof) I can't understand include not eating certain foods on certain days, how willing people are to lie to each other, killing innocent women and children of another country (terrorism), and so on.  When it comes down to it, I think it truly is impossible to understand why other people think the way they do, unless you happen to agree with them.
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farley2k
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« Reply #128 on: November 05, 2004, 09:37:15 PM »

Well I think we are farther ahead then most conversations I have had about this.  smile

I actually think that Butterknife and I mostly agree on the outline of how laws are suposed to be created and vetted against the constitution.


As for the whole "morality" of homosexuality....well I think that moves out of a logical discussion to one based on belief which I think is very hard to rationalize.
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scubabbl
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« Reply #129 on: November 05, 2004, 10:11:23 PM »

The thing I don't like about morals and religion is religious people are allowing their morals to be dictated to them instead of forming their own opinions. i.e. the bible says it's wrong, so it must be.  A will of the majority in religious instances is the will of an individual, who through influence and propaganda, influance others.
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RPGHero
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« Reply #130 on: November 05, 2004, 10:37:08 PM »

Quote from: "scubabbl"
The thing I don't like about morals and religion is religious people are allowing their morals to be dictated to them instead of forming their own opinions. i.e. the bible says it's wrong, so it must be.  A will of the majority in religious instances is the will of an individual, who through influence and propaganda, influance others.


The sad thing for me is that people who say their taking their beliefs from the bible because of their Christian beliefs aren't really being Christians.  Hypocrisy has always been part of EVERY culture and Christians are not immune either unfortunately.  I'm a Christian and it hurts me when I see people discriminate against anyone, even if they are perceived to be sinners.  I see three problems with discriminating against anyone who isn't considered part of "God's people" as a Christian.

1.  Jesus said whoever hasn't sinned throw the first stone.  I have never met a Christian who has never sinned, and quite frankly we all sin in little ways, some in big ways.
2.  Jesus' main message:  Treat all others as you would like to be treated.
3.  Last message, everyone is one of God's children, the prodigal son was an example of this.

What does this mean to me?  Rather than rejecting Gay people or couples we need to embrace them.  People aren't going to turn from sin because you tell them to, but because they choose to.  You can't oppress someone and as them to take on your beliefs.  You can make it SEEM they are taking on your beliefs, but they don't actually do it.
It worries me that the number of Christians who attend church regularly is slipping and yet most of us can't seem to see why.  We need need to start reaching out and pulling our brothers and sisters in and not staring out through our home and church windows and cursing those who won't join us just because we feel we are chosen.  
I live in Michigan and we also approved a marriage ban, I voted against it.  Not one new Christian will be created by that law, but a lot of people will hate the church because of it.
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Rhinohelix
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« Reply #131 on: November 05, 2004, 11:01:17 PM »

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If the majority is always right i guess we better throw all interacial couples in jail because the majority was against that (ironically it was the same group too!).
 African-Americans and Hispanics are overwhelmingly against gay marriage.  Next stereotype to be de-bunked, please.  :roll:

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Jaddison
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« Reply #132 on: November 05, 2004, 11:11:32 PM »

Quote from: "Rhinohelix"
Quote
If the majority is always right i guess we better throw all interacial couples in jail because the majority was against that (ironically it was the same group too!).
 African-Americans and Hispanics are overwhelmingly against gay marriage.  Next stereotype to be de-bunked, please.  :roll:

Rhino


That wasn't the context with which that argument was presented.  The "majority" in this case would be those against gay marriage whatever their race.
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Gratch
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« Reply #133 on: November 06, 2004, 02:44:54 AM »

Quote from: "Rhinohelix"
Quote
If the majority is always right i guess we better throw all interacial couples in jail because the majority was against that (ironically it was the same group too!).
 African-Americans and Hispanics are overwhelmingly against gay marriage.  Next stereotype to be de-bunked, please.  :roll:

Rhino


I think you misunderstood.  This was brought up as an example to show that not too long ago, the banning of interracial marriage was encouraged by the "majority", just like banning of gay marriage is today.  Yet in today's society, interracial marriage is now a very common occurance.  

I don't think he meant that the majority of interracial couples are against gay marriage.
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« Reply #134 on: November 06, 2004, 03:20:53 AM »

Quote from: "RPGHero"

It worries me that the number of Christians who attend church regularly is slipping and yet most of us can't seem to see why.  We need need to start reaching out and pulling our brothers and sisters in and not staring out through our home and church windows and cursing those who won't join us just because we feel we are chosen.  
I live in Michigan and we also approved a marriage ban, I voted against it.  Not one new Christian will be created by that law, but a lot of people will hate the church because of it.

I *heart* RPGHero.
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Laner
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« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2004, 04:52:30 AM »

Fair warning: if you think the idea of a higher power is for fools and weaklings, you might as well skip this post.  This assumes that the reader - at the very least - believes we're not the result of some cosmic accident.

Quote from: "RPGHero"

1.  Jesus said whoever hasn't sinned throw the first stone.


Immediately afterward he said to the woman "I don't condemn you.  Now  go and sin no more."

Notice what he said... Jesus didn't say "I don't condemn you - now go and sin all you like - it's no biggie."  You can't embrace the first part and ignore the second.  Homosexuality is a sin - both the old and new testaments support this.

Quote
I have never met a Christian who has never sinned, and quite frankly we all sin in little ways, some in big ways.


Absolutely.  But there's a huge difference between A) screwing up in a moment of weakness, admitting you made a mistake, then moving forward and B) Living a lifestyle that is sinful, claiming it's OK simply because the world says so.  

I have messed up in some huge, collosal ways.  But I don't try to justify it and twist God's word to make it OK so I can continue along that course - I do my best to "go and sin no more".

Quote
It worries me that the number of Christians who attend church regularly is slipping and yet most of us can't seem to see why.


The mainline denominations are hemmoraging members something awful - that is true.  But smaller non-denominational churches are growing at an enormous rate.  The reason is pretty simple though - the mainline churches - United Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, United Church of Christ - preach a very liberal gospel (not liberal in the poltiical sense).  They go way beyond the "love the sinner, hate the sin" to embracing *everything*, no matter how contrary it is to the Bible.  They have an attitude of "here's the different sides of the issue, now make up your own mind - all truths are equally valid".  I'm not making this up or exaggerating - I am in regular contact with the leadership of one of the biggest denominations in the world - this is straight from their mouths.

But that's the problem - if the mainline denominations are embracing this pluralistic theology, where all roads lead to heaven, what do they have to offer people?  I can get that doctrine from everywhere else - I have no need for the church in that case.  But as much as some try to force the notion that there is no right and wrong, the human heart has a need for answers - we need Truth (capital "T" intended).  And that is why the smaller, evangelical (oooh, there's that scary word) non-denoms are booming - they offer answers.  Not mealy-mouthed, muddled-middle theology.

OK, that's way off on a tangent, but something I think about a lot.

Quote
We need need to start reaching out and pulling our brothers and sisters in and not staring out through our home and church windows and cursing those who won't join us just because we feel we are chosen.


I agree 100% - but I worry about the churches you are in contact with, because that is not the attitude of the ones I see.  I think Christians *do* need to reach out to gays, without embracing the lifestyle and saying it's OK.  It's an incredibly fine line, and unfortunately most Christians tend to go way off the mark in either direction, myself included.  It's something I struggle with constantly.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject - I'm sure the usual suspects will flame this post to ashes, but that's fine.  Have at thee!
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Jaddison
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« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2004, 07:33:56 AM »

Quote from: "Laner"

[
Notice what he said... Jesus didn't say "I don't condemn you - now go and sin all you like - it's no biggie."  You can't embrace the first part and ignore the second.  Homosexuality is a sin - both the old and new testaments support this.

Quote
I have never met a Christian who has never sinned, and quite frankly we all sin in little ways, some in big ways.


Absolutely.  But there's a huge difference between A) screwing up in a moment of weakness, admitting you made a mistake, then moving forward and B) Living a lifestyle that is sinful, claiming it's OK simply because the world says so.  

I have messed up in some huge, collosal ways.  But I don't try to justify it and twist God's word to make it OK so I can continue along that course - I do my best to "go and sin no more".

The mainline denominations are hemmoraging members something awful - that is true.  But smaller non-denominational churches are growing at an enormous rate.  The reason is pretty simple though - the mainline churches - United Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, United Church of Christ - preach a very liberal gospel (not liberal in the poltiical sense).  They go way beyond the "love the sinner, hate the sin" to embracing *everything*, no matter how contrary it is to the Bible.  They have an attitude of "here's the different sides of the issue, now make up your own mind - all truths are equally valid".  I'm not making this up or exaggerating - I am in regular contact with the leadership of one of the biggest denominations in the world - this is straight from their mouths.

But that's the problem - if the mainline denominations are embracing this pluralistic theology, where all roads lead to heaven, what do they have to offer people?  I can get that doctrine from everywhere else - I have no need for the church in that case.  But as much as some try to force the notion that there is no right and wrong, the human heart has a need for answers - we need Truth (capital "T" intended).  And that is why the smaller, evangelical (oooh, there's that scary word) non-denoms are booming - they offer answers.  Not mealy-mouthed, muddled-middle theology.

OK, that's way off on a tangent, but something I think about a lot.

Quote
We need need to start reaching out and pulling our brothers and sisters in and not staring out through our home and church windows and cursing those who won't join us just because we feel we are chosen.


I agree 100% - but I worry about the churches you are in contact with, because that is not the attitude of the ones I see.  I think Christians *do* need to reach out to gays, without embracing the lifestyle and saying it's OK.  It's an incredibly fine line, and unfortunately most Christians tend to go way off the mark in either direction, myself included.  It's something I struggle with constantly.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject - I'm sure the usual suspects will flame this post to ashes, but that's fine.  Have at thee!


CAn you please explain to me, given the history of how the bible was written and edited, how you can be so sure the bible is the wrod of god?

Also, if you can take from it that homosexuality is a sin, what about the other harder to take sanctions of the bible?  Or do you get to pick and choose?  Why do you, and i guess many others, need an exclusionary heaven?  Where god is a big arbiter and judge in the sky keeping a scorecard on each one of us...but in the end the scorecard doesn't matter as long as you accept Jesus?  Why is it so hard for you to accept a concept that gays, if they come together in love are honoring god and life the same as a hetro couple?  Why would a kind and loving god as the christian god is maintained to be, have such arbitrary and petty, almost human like, rules?  What divine yardstick would god be using other than, again, a very human like emotion/action "because I say so"?

Did god give us a brain as a tease?  The apple in the gatden assured our "fall" since god made us god had to know the apple would be too tempting..then again why make an apple taste and look tempting but then set it as a test..again how petty human like that is.
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Hamsterball_Z
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« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2004, 08:54:30 AM »

Quote from: "Laner"
But that's the problem - if the mainline denominations are embracing this pluralistic theology, where all roads lead to heaven, what do they have to offer people? I can get that doctrine from everywhere else - I have no need for the church in that case. But as much as some try to force the notion that there is no right and wrong, the human heart has a need for answers - we need Truth (capital "T" intended). And that is why the smaller, evangelical (oooh, there's that scary word) non-denoms are booming - they offer answers. Not mealy-mouthed, muddled-middle theology.


"Just give us the answers, we don't want to have to figure this out for ourselves."  If that's what evangelicals are all about then that truly is scary.  If you don't take the time to consider what you're being told then how do you know it's really the Truth?  "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." - Shakespeare.

The Merchant of Venice --Act I, Scene iii
Quote
Mark you this, Bassanio,
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
Oh, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!
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RPGHero
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« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2004, 02:49:09 PM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Fair warning: if you think the idea of a higher power is for fools and weaklings, you might as well skip this post.  This assumes that the reader - at the very least - believes we're not the result of some cosmic accident.

Quote from: "RPGHero"

1.  Jesus said whoever hasn't sinned throw the first stone.


Immediately afterward he said to the woman "I don't condemn you.  Now  go and sin no more."

Notice what he said... Jesus didn't say "I don't condemn you - now go and sin all you like - it's no biggie."  You can't embrace the first part and ignore the second.  Homosexuality is a sin - both the old and new testaments support this.

Quote
I have never met a Christian who has never sinned, and quite frankly we all sin in little ways, some in big ways.


Absolutely.  But there's a huge difference between A) screwing up in a moment of weakness, admitting you made a mistake, then moving forward and B) Living a lifestyle that is sinful, claiming it's OK simply because the world says so.  

I have messed up in some huge, collosal ways.  But I don't try to justify it and twist God's word to make it OK so I can continue along that course - I do my best to "go and sin no more".


I have some gay friends and after talking with them and watching several members of my family struggle with alcoholism it has tempered my viewpoint of homosexual activity.  Personally I *do* think its a sin, but then gay people say "If God hates us, then why did he make us this way?"  That is a far tougher question.  
I find it curious how we will embrace alcoholics and do everything we want to help them reform, but we don't embrace gays that way.  Its much tougher when you think about it, an alcoholic can avoid bars and other places that sell alcohol, what does a gay person do?  I suppose a man could join a convent or a woman a monastery, but I don't think I have ever heard of that.  
I can easily throw out the sin that I am most susceptible to - almost every day I'll see a young lady walking down the street and feel a bit of lust, some people even joke its "healthy" for a male.  If a gay person does this though, some people would say that is a worse sin than murder.  I don't think so.  When Jesus said "go sin no more", he knew she would sin again, we all do, but its the pursuit of faith which is important.  
Many of us have a much harder go of it than others.  Many members of society seem to have desires that make them do very sinful things, yet many also are good contributors to society in many other ways.  In some cases like pedophiles we need to protect others from their sin.  In the case of gays in consensual relationships, I'm not sure where I can point out the harm other than pointing out it helps people sin.  
Theoretically alcohol and pain pill makers could be helping sinners too, but am I willing to say that I'm smarter than the average Christian and ban everything that might lead them to unholy behavior.  No.  That makes me the worse tyrant of all because faith is like exercising.  A faith that is never tested is as weak as someone who never exercises.  If I let you exercise your faith and help you grow stronger, your faith will stand any tests.  Some will fail, that is why the new testament said that when you fall, ask for forgiveness and rise again.  As I said, discriminating against gays will not bring them any closer to us, and if we are driving them away from joining us in faith, I fear we will be the ones that will face a harsher judgement than them.
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Jaddison
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« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2004, 06:21:51 PM »

RPG,  I don't think gay's feel they are like alcoholics and need to be "fixed"?  Do you feel the need to be cured of hetrosexuality?  Evidently the bible says that no sex at all is actually the ideal.  


"CULTURE WAR!

Traditional values are under attack, and sexual perverts are attempting to strain the definition of marriage far beyond what God has ordained. The Word of the Lord must be legislated as Oregon public policy.

In the Holy Bible, Saint Paul says that Christians should remain single and abstain from sex. The New Testament says that people should get married only if they are too weak-willed to abstain from sex:

"It is well for a man not to touch a woman…. It is well … to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion." (I Corinthians 7:1, 8-9)

Marriage is not sacred. Marriage is for wimps and sissies!

Oregon public policy should define marriage in accordance with divinely inspired Scripture. Therefore, marriage licenses should be granted only to those persons who have been certified by professional psychiatric examination to be too weak-willed to abstain from sex.

Oh, by the way, although Jesus never said a single word condemning homosexuality, if heterosexuals can't get married, homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry either—well, unless they're too weak-willed to abstain. Sissies!

The sissy institution of marriage must not be perverted by sinners who are capable of abstaining! The sacred union of church and state must prohibit the immoral union of men and women capable of the discipline of sexual abstinence. We are not saved by either faith or good works. We are saved by religious-right legislation!

Freedom of religion and equal treatment under law is simply the special right to sin, because our tradition is the one and only truth! And our tradition (that is, our personal moral opinions) should become law"

Measure 36Argument in Favor
CULTURE WAR!

Traditional values are under attack, and sexual perverts are attempting to strain the definition of marriage far beyond what God has ordained. The Word of the Lord must be legislated as Oregon public policy.

In the Holy Bible, Saint Paul says that Christians should remain single and abstain from sex. The New Testament says that people should get married only if they are too weak-willed to abstain from sex:

"It is well for a man not to touch a woman…. It is well … to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion." (I Corinthians 7:1, 8-9)

Marriage is not sacred. Marriage is for wimps and sissies!

Oregon public policy should define marriage in accordance with divinely inspired Scripture. Therefore, marriage licenses should be granted only to those persons who have been certified by professional psychiatric examination to be too weak-willed to abstain from sex.

Oh, by the way, although Jesus never said a single word condemning homosexuality, if heterosexuals can't get married, homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry either—well, unless they're too weak-willed to abstain. Sissies!

The sissy institution of marriage must not be perverted by sinners who are capable of abstaining! The sacred union of church and state must prohibit the immoral union of men and women capable of the discipline of sexual abstinence. We are not saved by either faith or good works. We are saved by religious-right legislation!

Freedom of religion and equal treatment under law is simply the special right to sin, because our tradition is the one and only truth! And our tradition (that is, our personal moral opinions) should become law.

AGREE WITH US OR BURN IN HELL!

(This information furnished by M. Dennis Moore, Traditional Prejudices Coalition.)


MARRIAGE IS SACRED!

The Bible says that marriage is for procreation. God made Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve made Cain and Abel, not an empty nest.

Marriage is for procreation. If you're not pro-Creation, you're anti-God. And once a marriage has been solemnized, sex is serious business. The solemnity of sex must not be abused for sinful pleasures. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. And marriage is for breeding purposes.

Therefore, it should be Oregon public policy that

Homosexuals may not marry.
Infertile persons may not marry.
Men with vasectomies may not marry.
Women with hysterectomies may not marry.
Post-menopausal women may not marry.
Persons planning to use birth control may not marry.
Non-virgins may not marry (Deuteronomy 22:13-21).
Inter-racial couples may not marry (Deuteronomy 7:3).
And couples who fail to conceive within two years ought to have their marriage licenses revoked.

Additionally, the Bible says that

Divorced persons may not marry (Luke 16:18).
And if a man dies without leaving a male heir, it is his brother's responsibility to impregnate the widow (Genesis 38:6-10). If he refuses, he shall be fined one shoe (Deuteronomy 25:5-10).
This is the sacred word of the Lord, steadfast and unchanging

The 2 pieces above are satire but the biblical references aren't.  Again I fail to understand how religion/christianity selectively decides right and wrong at the same time using the infalibility of the words written in a book that has been edited ad inifinitum and usually not because god told them to.
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Rhinohelix
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« Reply #140 on: November 06, 2004, 07:43:42 PM »

Quote
That wasn't the context with which that argument was presented. The "majority" in this case would be those against gay marriage whatever their race.


You said it was the same group against interracial marriage that was against gay marriage, implying a racist majority in the former the same additionally homophobic majority in the latter. I was pointing out the two groups are not the same. /shrug.

Rhino
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« Reply #141 on: November 06, 2004, 08:16:26 PM »

Quote from: "Rhinohelix"
Quote
That wasn't the context with which that argument was presented. The "majority" in this case would be those against gay marriage whatever their race.


You said it was the same group against interracial marriage that was against gay marriage, implying a racist majority in the former the same additionally homophobic majority in the latter. I was pointing out the two groups are not the same. /shrug.

Rhino

well, i meant the Religious right so  Tongue
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Hamsterball_Z
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« Reply #142 on: November 07, 2004, 02:44:14 AM »

Quote from: "Rhinohelix"
Quote
If the majority is always right i guess we better throw all interacial couples in jail because the majority was against that (ironically it was the same group too!).
 African-Americans and Hispanics are overwhelmingly against gay marriage.  Next stereotype to be de-bunked, please.  :roll:

Rhino


I am in an interracial marriage, I'm white, my wife is black.  If you are suggesting that African-Americans and Hispanics don't discriminate against  interracial couples then you would be sadly mistaken.  We've had it from that group just as much if not more.
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PaulBot
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« Reply #143 on: November 08, 2004, 06:26:39 AM »

The Oregon constitution already stated that marriage involved a man and woman, but wasn't worded so absolutely clear that a certain Multnomah County official decided to over step their authority and issue marriage licenses to gays. This spurred the amendment to reword the Oregon constitution to say what it has always said: marriage is between one man and one woman.

I am absolutely thrilled to see every state that had this issue on their ballot pass it!!

Now I hope every license issued to gay couples in Oregon gets revoked.
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« Reply #144 on: November 08, 2004, 02:03:35 PM »

I hope Laner hasn't left.

I just want to know where in the new testament Jesus says that it's a sin.  Because I think it's safe to say we can 'throw out' Leviticus, because if we followed those rules, we'd be in jail.  And besides, if I'm going to base something on it, I want to hear Jesus say it.  God in the old testament is very clearly either filtered through many different people's eyes, or is a very different god altogether.  

So, can anyone elucidate?
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Jaddison
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« Reply #145 on: November 08, 2004, 03:05:28 PM »

Quote from: "PaulBot"
The Oregon constitution already stated that marriage involved a man and woman, but wasn't worded so absolutely clear that a certain Multnomah County official decided to over step their authority and issue marriage licenses to gays. This spurred the amendment to reword the Oregon constitution to say what it has always said: marriage is between one man and one woman.

I am absolutely thrilled to see every state that had this issue on their ballot pass it!!

Now I hope every license issued to gay couples in Oregon gets revoked.


What is it that "thrills" you about this?  What is your rationale?
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Easily Satisfied
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« Reply #146 on: November 09, 2004, 03:02:49 AM »

I guess I still haven't heard a good reason why people are against gay marriage/unions. I haven't heard why they feel its ok to discriminate against a group of individuals trying to "pursue happiness".

If you use religion as your reasoning, how can you dispute the fact that God doesn't pass judgement on others, what gives us as humans the right to do so? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am only trying to understand how I can be in the minority here.  


It deeply disturbs me knowing that my family voted for this ban and I voted against... Course they also all voted for Bush, while I voted for Kerry. Hard to imagine how we are so different and yet I was raised the same as my brothers.
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Fireball
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« Reply #147 on: November 11, 2004, 04:37:56 PM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Because the gay lobby has already shown they will not settle for "civil union".  They want to redefine marriage to mean whatever the heck they like... to the point of it meaning absolutely nothing.  Which is the ultimate goal.


DO NOT ASCRIBE SUCH MOTIVATIONS TO ALL GAY PEOPLE. The gays I know, including me, do not want to see marriage become "absolutely nothing," we want it to endure and grow to become more than it is today. We support marriage. We do not seek to destroy marriage. We wish to be married because it is an institution that we value, because we hold the same wishes, dreams and goals as any other Americans -- to find a person we love, build a life together (and marriage is designed to make it possible for two people to build one stable life together) and to be a family (with or without children, just like straight people).

Are there some gays who would like to see all vestiges of the current marital culture destroyed? Certainly. But there are also scores of virulently anti-marriage straight people, and in terms of sheer numbers undoubtedly far more of them.

There is no single "gay lobby," just as there is no "gay lifestyle." I think you'll find that most of us would gladly settle for "civil unions" if it means having access to a societal framework which legally supports our relationships.

We want to be able to visit our loved ones in the hospital, which is often reserved only to family members.

We want to be protected from being forced to divulge the contents of our most private conversations in court, just as husbands and wives are protected.

We want to be able to pass on our belongings to the person we've built our life with tax free upon death, just as spouses can, so that the life we build can endure for our loved ones (including children) should tragedy befall us.

We want to be legal next of kin, with unquestioned ability to make decisions legal, medical and otherwise for each other should one partner become incapacitated or gravely ill. Some would say "set up powers of attorney," but those do not provide a guarantee, and when it comes to gay couples there is a history of such arrangements being broadly ignored.

We want second parent rights for each other's children, for the same reasons.


Mainstream gay people are just like the rest of you. We're not perverts, we're not fundamentally immoral, we're not evil. We do not prey on children, we do not "recruit," for that's just simply impossible. We cannot make ourselves "not gay," if that were possible we all would have back in our teens -- but we also now recognize that we're just as valid, just as moral and just as deserving as anyone else of full societal recognition and protection. We're not hiding anymore, we're not going to be ashamed anymore, and you can't bludgeon us back into the closet with condemnation and bigotry.

We work in your offices. We go to your churches. We have kids in your schools... and we also teach your kids in the schools. We live on your block. We pay our taxes. We serve in the military. We love our country just as much as any heterosexual. We are, by and large, just like you.

We're not the drug addled, sex crazed misogynistic predators our enemies make us out to be, and perhaps that's what scares them the most.
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« Reply #148 on: November 11, 2004, 04:40:47 PM »

Quote from: "Butterknife"
No more bigoted than making a law against murder.


Murder hurts other people. The fact that I'm gay doesn't hurt anyone. The fact that my gay friends Han & Luke (names changed to protect the not present) live together, have a life together, own property and function as a couple together, does not hurt anyone.

However, the bigotry of people who voted for these Hate Amendments does hurt me. And it does hurt my friends. A few years ago, Luke was deathly ill. The hospital refused to recognize Han's power of attorney in such situations, and wouldn't even let him go back and visit Luke, much less make medical decisions for him. They had to track down Luke's aunt, and then they were shocked... shocked I tell you... that the aunt reamed them out for not listening to Han.

Bigotry and malice is clearly present in this debate, but the good, moral, law abiding gay Americans are the victims of it, not the Christians and other fanatics who are seeking to impose their way of life on everyone around them.
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Fireball
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« Reply #149 on: November 11, 2004, 04:42:02 PM »

Quote from: "Butterknife"
farley -- I learned the same thing you did.  But democracy, and voting, is a "will of the majority" system.  If they didn't want the majority to make the decisions, they shouldn't have allowed people to vote.

The Bill of Rights is there to counterbalance the system (checks and balances, remember).  It protects the minorities from the will of the majority.  Note, though, that certain things people think are their rights are not specifically stated in our laws as a right, and so therefore are not actually protected from the will of the majority.  Marriage is one of these things.


Rights need not be specifically enumerated in the text of the Constitution in order to exist and be recognized. Marriage is a recognized inalienable right of adults in our society -- read Loving v. Virginia.
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« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2004, 05:07:53 PM »

Quote from: "Fireball1244"
We work in your offices. We go to your churches. We have kids in your schools... and we also teach your kids in the schools. We live on your block. We pay our taxes. We serve in the military. We love our country just as much as any heterosexual. We are, by and large, just like you.


But...but...you've got teh gay.  That automatically makes you evil.  You should change your heathen, immoral ways and become one of us normal straight folk right now!  I'll loan you my Bible to help get you started.

/heaps and heaps of sarcasm

Great posts, man.  I think many of the basic privlages of married couples that you pointed out get overlooked by the "anti-gay marriage" hate...er, interest groups.
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« Reply #151 on: November 11, 2004, 05:42:45 PM »

This may have been said many times already since I haven't read the whole thread. But in case it hasn't, here is my view on the issue:

Doesn't the fact the the Bush administration is calling for a Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage show that at present the Constitution allows for gay marriage? These "activist judges" have just found that the Constitution permits gay marriage; so rather than argue that the Constitution in fact forbids gay marriage, the administration has decided to change the Constitution. It seems to me that act in itself proves that denying homosexuals the right to marry is against the Constitution.
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Sepiche
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« Reply #152 on: November 11, 2004, 05:44:46 PM »

I really, really hope that amendment gets shot down.  The whole idea of amending the constitution to promote bigotry just gives be chills. :|

s
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« Reply #153 on: November 11, 2004, 05:49:11 PM »

It seems that this whole issue comes down to two sides:  It's a sin and it's not a sin.

Proven facts:  

1)  Murder, bad
2)  Stealing, bad
3)  Raping, bad
4)  Lying, bad
5)  Slavery, bad

These all could be called "sin", well, they are.  But for the sake of my argument, "sin" because they all do one thing:  Cause another person unprovoked harm or damage.

Does having consensual sex constitute "harming or damaging someone unprovoked"?

Let's just face it:  People who believe something simply because another person says its true because his uncle's brother's aunt's father's dog's owner says he heard it was the "Word of the Almighty" GeeOD, that person is nothing more than a sheep.  Oh wait, they want to be sheep led to the slaughter!  I forgot.
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« Reply #154 on: November 11, 2004, 05:50:17 PM »

Unless the Republicans can whip together another 15 GOP Senators in the next couple years (not bloody likely), the Federal Marriage Amendment will never pass. You've got anywhere between 3 and 7 Republicans who won't vote for it, and after this election only one Democrat, maybe, who will. 55-3+1 is not 67.

The odds are equally long in the House of Representatives.

State Constitutional amendments are more problematic because they are generally passed by votes of the people and it is always -- ALWAYS -- dangerous (and evil) to put the rights of a misunderstood and widely maligned minority group up for a vote. If you had put interracial marriage up for a vote in 1955, it would have failed across the nation, and in many places states would have voted 90%+ in favor of banning it. Even today, gay marriage bans aren't getting that sort of support.

And as the most anti-gay members of our population age and die off (there is a large age-based cleavage on this issue), they're going to start to fail, and then start to get overturned.
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« Reply #155 on: November 11, 2004, 06:37:09 PM »

Wow. Wow. Wow.
Some incredible posts Fireball. Thank you. Thank you for speaking up, thank you for making me feel like I am not wrong in believing what I believe.

Thank you.
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« Reply #156 on: November 11, 2004, 06:46:19 PM »

You see fireball/kirk?, THAT'S how you do it.
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« Reply #157 on: November 11, 2004, 11:43:23 PM »

well i'm just going to tell a little story (i haven't read all six pages, so i hope it's not a repeat) - it's a true story, sadly:

when Massachusetts was debating "the issue" of gay marriage, an African-American, female legislator was one of the speakers - i'd name her if i had a memory... :?

she said that (huge paraphrasing)... when gay people had to sit in the back of the bus or drink out of different water fountains, then they could say they're being discriminated against.  she referred to about 6 or 8 discriminations that  were suffered by Black Americans but not by Gay Americans - unfortunately she also included one or two like being beaten or killed (hmmm, think that's never happened to gays) or job discrimination (hmmm).

but it got better than that:  she ended by saying that if you look up the definition of marriage in the dictionary it states that marriage is a union between a man and a woman (and some words to the effect that it proved the point or that made it right - can't remember exactly)...

i wished i'd been in the audience, so i could have asked her to look in the same dictionary, for the definition of slavery - and perhaps point out that just because it exists in the dictionary (and still does in "real life").... doesn't make it right!

and that's my four cents worth!

be kind to one another in all things and someday, when you most need it, someone may be kind to you...  the Golden Rule still rules!!!
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« Reply #158 on: November 12, 2004, 01:27:41 AM »

I was wondering when Kirk would show up.  It took awhile for the Bat-signal to reach ya, huh?

And nice job.  Very calm, reasoned discussion is just what this issue needs.

Kudos!
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