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Author Topic: Asking her parents' permission  (Read 4707 times)
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rickfc
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« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2008, 09:34:34 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on May 14, 2008, 09:23:09 PM


Don't you see your own contradiction? You pretend to care about her parent's feelings and then say "tough shit" if they give you the wrong answer.

So you're saying that you can't respect someone's feelings if you disagree with them?  There are many things with which I disagree with my in-laws, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect how they feel about it.  Had I not received my father-in-law's blessing, we would have gotten married either way, but I would have felt bad about it, and my wife would have probably been devastated for a while.

There is no contradiction in asking for someone's blessing in something you are about to do and doing it anyway if they don't give it.  If you're asking for permission, that is another thing entirely.
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« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2008, 09:38:01 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on May 14, 2008, 09:23:09 PM

Quote from: kratz on May 14, 2008, 09:03:32 PM

I think it's a sign of respect to say that you want to involve the people who have, until this point, been the ones primarily concerned with her well being and happiness (depending), and rather than an actual asking of *permission*, it's saying "This is what I'm going to do, but it's important to me that I involve you, as her parents, and that you are happy with what is going to happen."  If they aren't happy with it... tough shit, we're all adults who can make our own decision, but it's important to show that you recognize and respect their feelings about your plans with a member of their family.

Don't you see your own contradiction? You pretend to care about her parent's feelings and then say "tough shit" if they give you the wrong answer.

Are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?

There would only be a contradiction if I was asking for permission.  I wasn't.  I was involving her parents in my plans with their daughter.  If he had said 'absolutely, no way, you can't do it', then why would I have any respect for someone who had none for me?

I didn't 'pretend' to care about their feelings.  I talked to them about it because I did care about their feelings... but ultimately their feelings aren't going to get in the way of me proposing marriage.  I was marrying her, not them.
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« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2008, 09:40:55 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on May 14, 2008, 08:33:30 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on May 14, 2008, 08:29:53 PM


Well, when we got engaged she was 16.  When we got married she was 18 and 3 days.  And no, she wasn't pregnant.  icon_twisted  We are going into year 13 at this point.  Not too shabby for a guy who swore he was never gonna get married.

Wow...I'm going to have to agree with the dad on the 'too young' part.  I mean, in hindsight, you guys have been married for a while now and all, but if some guy came and asked my daughter to marry him at 16, I'd probably rip his nuts off.

Edit:  I don't mean this in any way, shape or form as a disrespect to you, your wife or your marriage.  I hope you didn't take it as such.  Hats off to you for lasting as long as you have.  Many people who make the decision to marry well into their 'adulthood' barely make it past 5 years, so 13 years is quite the accomplishment.

Nono, I offered it up knowing that it'd catch this sort of heat.  Dad was right about the too young part, admittedly.  Laura and I had to grow up quite a bit from that point, and some of it was harder than it should have been.  The problem was that he didn't act like a man and confront the both of us on it - he just played silly games like 'forgetting' to book the hall.  "Oh...well, now they are booked for another 9 months, guess that sucks eh?"  It was a pretty terrible situation that was punctuated by his absence from the wedding - her grandfather gave her away at the ceremony and then admonished the hell out of his son for his one chance at that opportunity.  I'm not so arrogant as to say we knew what we were doing, but we did have a far more realistic view of things than most.  Long story, and one I'm surprised turned out as well as it did.
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« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2008, 09:46:05 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on May 14, 2008, 09:34:34 PM

There is no contradiction in asking for someone's blessing in something you are about to do and doing it anyway if they don't give it.  If you're asking for permission, that is another thing entirely.

Dictionary.com says otherwise.

Quote
6.   approval or good wishes

To ask for someone's blessing is to ask for their approval. If you are going to take the action anyway, why bother going through the motions of asking for their blessing/approval?
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« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2008, 09:56:33 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on May 14, 2008, 09:46:05 PM

Quote from: rickfc on May 14, 2008, 09:34:34 PM

There is no contradiction in asking for someone's blessing in something you are about to do and doing it anyway if they don't give it.  If you're asking for permission, that is another thing entirely.

Dictionary.com says otherwise.

Quote
6.   approval or good wishes

To ask for someone's blessing is to ask for their approval. If you are going to take the action anyway, why bother going through the motions of asking for their blessing/approval?

Because it is a non-optional social convention.
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« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2008, 10:01:00 PM »

Quote from: kratz on May 14, 2008, 09:38:01 PM

Quote
Don't you see your own contradiction? You pretend to care about her parent's feelings and then say "tough shit" if they give you the wrong answer.

Are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?
Certainly seems that way.
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« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2008, 10:39:09 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on May 14, 2008, 07:50:16 PM

Save yourself the trouble - just man up and ask. 

FTS (F--- That S---).

My wife's parents hated me - not because of who I am, but because of my religion, where I'm from and how much money my family had.  Her Mom made it abundantly clear that her daughter shouldn't date me, that it was "evil" and that God would punish us (no kidding - I'm stuck with her as a M-I-L).  I didn't owe them anything and I didn't want anything from them.  Ask their permission?  I wouldn't have asked them to pee on me if I were on fire.

A "non-optional social convention"?  Well, it was certainly optional for me.  Since Token (I know it's Tokek, but I always think of the South Park character) has the relationship to do so and he wants to, that's fine. 
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« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2008, 11:10:13 PM »

I knew my soon-to-be in-laws wouldn't say "no".  The fact that my wife and I would eventually get married was a given.  I felt it to be a nice and respectful gesture to involve my wife's parents in planning for the engagement.  They actually found it to be a pleasant surprise.  Whether or not I'd still marry my wife regardless of whether I had my in-laws blessings or not doesn't matter because it didn't happen, nor did I think it would happen.  I asked, they were pleased that I was kind enough to speak to them about it.  We've always had a great relationship and continue to have a great relationship.

Why must everything be overanalyzed?   
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2008, 02:10:14 AM »

Wish me luck, I'll be heading over to her parents' house in about 20 minutes.
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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2008, 02:17:08 AM »

Quote from: Tokek on May 15, 2008, 02:10:14 AM

Wish me luck, I'll be heading over to her parents' house in about 20 minutes.

Good Luck!
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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2008, 07:04:12 AM »

So...um...yeah...no dice.

It wasn't a total loss though, they said "whatever makes her happy, they'll go with it" but as far as blessing goes, they're not willing to give 100% because they don't think I'm financially stable enough.  They did gave me props for having the guts to show up and ask, all by myself.

I've had this talk with her before and it was pretty much the exact same concerns that her parents have so it wasn't much of a blow to me, but it was pretty devastating to her.  Now she feels guilty cause she feels that she made me do it.  My friends and her friends are saying we should elope, lol, we'll see.
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2008, 07:16:36 AM »

Wow, that's a pretty crappy response for them to have (unless you are a complete deadbeat  icon_biggrin).  At this point asking the folks is really a sign of respect and a formality, not a chance for them to tell you that you aren't good enough.

Yikes.

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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2008, 07:24:49 AM »

People still do this? I've never heard of it done in Denmark, well, sure, 200 years ago when the girl didnt have a say in the matter, but now? no way.

In my opinion its a relic of the times when you asked permission to court someone, and if it was agreed upon, the girl didnt have any say in this...

wouldnt do this, ever...
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2008, 12:53:49 PM »

Quote
they're not willing to give 100% because they don't think I'm financially stable enough
They apparently forgot their own Raman noodles and cement block bookshelf days. Financially stable isn't a prerequisite for marriage.  When Laura and I got married I had a .gov job and was still making $18,000 a year.  Stable, yes.  Poor?  yes.
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2008, 01:11:47 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on May 15, 2008, 07:24:49 AM

People still do this? I've never heard of it done in Denmark, well, sure, 200 years ago when the girl didnt have a say in the matter, but now? no way.

In my opinion its a relic of the times when you asked permission to court someone, and if it was agreed upon, the girl didnt have any say in this...

wouldnt do this, ever...

Silly relics of the times...

So, have you ever seen a wedding reception where the male guests kiss the bride whenever the groom left the room, or with a circle of guests that cut the groom's socks? slywink
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2008, 02:03:38 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on May 15, 2008, 07:24:49 AM

People still do this? I've never heard of it done in Denmark,

in denmark you can just buy your wife for an ox and 4 colored stones, though.

 Tongue
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2008, 02:24:12 PM »

Tokek, as many people have stated in this thread, this was more about a sign of respect in taking the time and energy to let them know your intentions.  Just because they didn't bless it, doesn't mean you shouldn't go through with it.  You told them your intentions, now do them.  Ultimately, you and your girlfriend are adults and can do what you want, whether that be eloping or a formal ceremony.  Also, they said they would go with whatever.  I think it's mission accomplished right now.
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2008, 02:55:39 PM »

Quote from: Sarkus on May 15, 2008, 07:16:36 AM

At this point asking the folks is really a sign of respect and a formality, not a chance for them to tell you that you aren't good enough.

Quote from: Sarkus on May 15, 2008, 07:16:36 AM

Tokek, as many people have stated in this thread, this was more about a sign of respect in taking the time and energy to let them know your intentions.  Just because they didn't bless it, doesn't mean you shouldn't go through with it.  You told them your intentions, now do them.  Ultimately, you and your girlfriend are adults and can do what you want, whether that be eloping or a formal ceremony.

 icon_confused

Am I beating a dead horse here? To ask for someone's blessing and then disregard their wishes/advice is not the way to show respect. If you truly respected them then you would take their council. If you didn't respect them then why bother asking them to begin with? I've heard words like "tradition", "formality" & "symbolic" which all sound insulting to the concept of respect. Turn it around. Imagine someone asked for your advice saying how much they respect you. After spending time thinking about the situation you offer an opinion on the situation. How would you feel if their response was "yeah, whatever, I'm an adult and don't agree with your opinion. I was just asking to be nice."
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2008, 03:09:23 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on May 15, 2008, 02:55:39 PM

Am I beating a dead horse here? To ask for someone's blessing and then disregard their wishes/advice is not the way to show respect. If you truly respected them then you would take their council.

You're not actually asking for permission.  It's the ritual itself that's the form of respect.
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rickfc
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2008, 03:13:03 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on May 15, 2008, 02:55:39 PM


Am I beating a dead horse here?

Why, yes, yes you are.  Your opinion has been duly noted, and yet, you keep bringing up the exact same point every single time someone posts an opinion that contradicts your own.  We get it:  You don't think that asking for her parents' blessing or permission is respectful.  Quit trolling the thread already.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2008, 03:20:23 PM »

Quote from: Tokek on May 15, 2008, 07:04:12 AM

So...um...yeah...no dice.

It wasn't a total loss though, they said "whatever makes her happy, they'll go with it" but as far as blessing goes, they're not willing to give 100% because they don't think I'm financially stable enough.  They did gave me props for having the guts to show up and ask, all by myself.

I've had this talk with her before and it was pretty much the exact same concerns that her parents have so it wasn't much of a blow to me, but it was pretty devastating to her.  Now she feels guilty cause she feels that she made me do it.  My friends and her friends are saying we should elope, lol, we'll see.

F-em.  If she's the one, buy the ring and get engaged.  If they raise any fuss at that point, elope.  Money doesn't make a marriage.

Out of curiousity, how old are you and how old is she?
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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2008, 03:20:38 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 15, 2008, 02:03:38 PM

Quote from: Razgon on May 15, 2008, 07:24:49 AM

People still do this? I've never heard of it done in Denmark,

in denmark you can just buy your wife for an ox and 4 colored stones, though.

 Tongue

An ox? Damn that must be a good woman.
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2008, 03:25:08 PM »

What does 'not financially stable' mean?  You don't have a job?  Or you don't have a $1,000,000 a year job?
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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2008, 03:32:11 PM »

Quote from: kratz on May 15, 2008, 03:25:08 PM

What does 'not financially stable' mean?  You don't have a job?  Or you don't have a $1,000,000 a year job?

Translation: The daughter may not be high maintenance, but the parents are.     icon_wink
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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2008, 03:43:27 PM »

Quote from: coopasonic on May 15, 2008, 03:20:38 PM

Quote from: hepcat on May 15, 2008, 02:03:38 PM

Quote from: Razgon on May 15, 2008, 07:24:49 AM

People still do this? I've never heard of it done in Denmark,

in denmark you can just buy your wife for an ox and 4 colored stones, though.

 Tongue

An ox? Damn that must be a good woman.

well, depends on how much she can pull herself, of course...You dont just throw away good oxes like that, without a backup plan
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« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2008, 04:49:57 PM »

I'm 30 and she's 35.  I do have a stable job and so does she, we both just have not-so-good credits and that's what her parents mean by "not financially stable."  They're worried about where we will live, when we can afford a house, etc.  I understand where they are coming from though, as I have brought up the same concerns with her before.

Her family is extremely close with each other and I told her outright that I don't want to be the cause of a rift or awkwardness in her family and I will walk away if that's the case.  I told her that if we were to elope, I want to make sure that it will not cause her to be "unwelcomed" in family gatherings.  I know that sounds harsh but I told her that the reason for marriage is to expand families, not to tear them apart.

We may still go through with it since she's the kind of person who loves to prove people wrong when they said it can't be done, but I told her that she'd better make sure that at least her parents are ok with it and that it won't create any awkwardness with her family.

We'll see.
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« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2008, 04:52:05 PM »

Quote from: Tokek on May 15, 2008, 04:49:57 PM

I'm 30 and she's 35.  I do have a stable job and so does she, we both just have not-so-good credits and that's what her parents mean by "not financially stable."  They're worried about where we will live, when we can afford a house, etc.  I understand where they are coming from though, as I have brought up the same concerns with her before.

Her family is extremely close with each other and I told her outright that I don't want to be the cause of a rift or awkwardness in her family and I will walk away if that's the case.  I told her that if we were to elope, I want to make sure that it will not cause her to be "unwelcomed" in family gatherings.  I know that sounds harsh but I told her that the reason for marriage is to expand families, not to tear them apart.

We may still go through with it since she's the kind of person who loves to prove people wrong when they said it can't be done, but I told her that she'd better make sure that at least her parents are ok with it and that it won't create any awkwardness with her family.

We'll see.

At the end of the day, you have to do what's going to make the two of you happy.
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« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2008, 04:55:30 PM »

Damn, sorry you have to deal with this, Tokek.  I thought for sure that you'd have smooth sailing after you said you've known your girlfriend for 10 years and are a regular at her family gatherings.

They're being unreasonable, to say the least.
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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2008, 05:00:41 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on May 15, 2008, 03:09:23 PM

Quote from: Moliere on May 15, 2008, 02:55:39 PM

Am I beating a dead horse here? To ask for someone's blessing and then disregard their wishes/advice is not the way to show respect. If you truly respected them then you would take their council.

You're not actually asking for permission.  It's the ritual itself that's the form of respect.

Bingo.  For some reason, even though it's been explained 100 times, Moliere doesn't get it or doesn't want to.
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« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2008, 05:02:51 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on May 15, 2008, 04:55:30 PM

Damn, sorry you have to deal with this, Tokek.  I thought for sure that you'd have smooth sailing after you said you've known your girlfriend for 10 years and are a regular at her family gatherings.

They're being unreasonable, to say the least.

Really.  It's not your fault your girlfriend has bad credit. slywink

It sounds like it might be good idea for the two of you to sit down with her parents and talk about your plans together.  That might help assuage their concerns.  Or perhaps there are other issues, such as they are afraid of "giving up" their daughter and so on.  Is she an only child?  Does she still have a bedroom at her parents' house?

Don't draw the battle lines just yet.
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2008, 05:07:34 PM »

Quote
If you truly respected them then you would take their council.
I respect a lot of folks and I listen to their council.  I often take it to heart and move in their suggested direction, but when I don't it isn't any disrespect to them. 

A great example is the martial arts class I'm in - the 6th Dan tells me that they've adopted a different hand position for knife strikes.  I've tried it and found it to be less effective than the way I've done it for the past 25 or so years.  I listened to his council, expressed my opinion, and I'm going to continue to do it the way I was originally taught.  When I teach it, I'll teach it his way, but given that I can break a foot of concrete with this strike he'd be hard pressed to tell me that it is wrong.  We just agree to disagree and neither of us feel disrespected.
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2008, 05:09:15 PM »

Seriously?  Bad credit?  Who gives a shit - correct it as you move along in life.  My credit was horrible for a long time - now its in the high 800s.  It isn't a valid reason to 'walk away' by any stretch.
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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2008, 05:10:12 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on May 15, 2008, 05:00:41 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on May 15, 2008, 03:09:23 PM

Quote from: Moliere on May 15, 2008, 02:55:39 PM

Am I beating a dead horse here? To ask for someone's blessing and then disregard their wishes/advice is not the way to show respect. If you truly respected them then you would take their council.

You're not actually asking for permission.  It's the ritual itself that's the form of respect.

Bingo.  For some reason, even though it's been explained 100 times, Moliere doesn't get it or doesn't want to.

Oh, I get it, I just disagree with your premise that acting out the ritual, regardless of results, is showing respect.
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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2008, 05:12:23 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on May 15, 2008, 05:10:12 PM

Quote from: The Grue on May 15, 2008, 05:00:41 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on May 15, 2008, 03:09:23 PM

Quote from: Moliere on May 15, 2008, 02:55:39 PM

Am I beating a dead horse here? To ask for someone's blessing and then disregard their wishes/advice is not the way to show respect. If you truly respected them then you would take their council.

You're not actually asking for permission.  It's the ritual itself that's the form of respect.

Bingo.  For some reason, even though it's been explained 100 times, Moliere doesn't get it or doesn't want to.


Oh, I get it, I just disagree with your premise that acting out the ritual, regardless of results, is showing respect.


It's actually not my premise, but instead the society's, but do carry on.
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« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2008, 05:13:12 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on May 15, 2008, 05:10:12 PM


Oh, I get it, I just disagree with your premise that acting out the ritual, regardless of results, is showing respect.

Yes, because it's so much more respectful to do it without any prior knowledge.  Moliere wins the thread!
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« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2008, 05:14:03 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on May 15, 2008, 05:07:34 PM

Quote
If you truly respected them then you would take their council.
I respect a lot of folks and I listen to their council.  I often take it to heart and move in their suggested direction, but when I don't it isn't any disrespect to them. 

A great example is the martial arts class I'm in - the 6th Dan tells me that they've adopted a different hand position for knife strikes.  I've tried it and found it to be less effective than the way I've done it for the past 25 or so years.  I listened to his council, expressed my opinion, and I'm going to continue to do it the way I was originally taught.  When I teach it, I'll teach it his way, but given that I can break a foot of concrete with this strike he'd be hard pressed to tell me that it is wrong.  We just agree to disagree and neither of us feel disrespected.

Thanks for the warning. I will be avoiding any future knife attacks on KD...
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LoneStarSpur
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« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2008, 06:10:28 PM »

When I was asked for permission everyone already knew the question was going to be popped and the answer was going to be yes and that her mother and I were happy about it.

It was a gesture of respect from him to me that I was very appreciative of. And it gave me an opportunity to pass along a bit of...wisdom, I guess, that I'd gathered from 25 years of being very happily married. I doubt any of it took (the young almost always know everything...at least I did  icon_lol), but maybe in 20 years or so he'll remember and think that the old guy was right.
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Boudreaux
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« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2008, 06:22:34 PM »

I never asked for permission or for a blessing from my wife's parents before I proposed to her.  It honestly never occurred to me to do so.  I didn't think of it as an outdated formality or anything like that, I just didn't think of it period.  Her parents and I did then and still do get along fine, and it wasn't an issue in our relationship at all.

However, when her younger sister got married several years later, her dad made a point of mentioning during his wedding reception speech how her fiance had asked them permission before proposing, and how "that's rare these days".  Now, I don't think it was a subtle dig at me at all.  My father-in-law and I get along great.  Nobody but me, my wife, and them knows anything about how I proposed.  Still, ouch.


Also, maybe it's just me but it seems really odd to be asking for parental blessing when you're both in your 30s.  I can see it a little more when your girlfriend is much younger and possibly still dependent somewhat on her parents for support, but at 35?  I mean, you're both closer to middle age than you are to high school, and I assume completely independent adults.  I could see letting them know ahead of time, but purely as a gesture of your regard for them, not in any way as seeking permission or approval.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 06:28:18 PM by Boudreaux » Logged

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Tokek
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« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2008, 06:24:15 PM »

We may go over there and have a talk with her parents or I'm pretty sure she will after she's calmed down a bit.

Her friends and my friends are all saying that the reasons her parents gave were not good enough and that we should just get married and prove them wrong.  We'll see.  I'll give it a few more days to think it over.
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chaosraven
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« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2008, 06:54:07 PM »

If her Credit was Good, I might have given them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

But if hers is ALSO in the Realm of Suckage?

This is them saying she needs a Rich Guy to bail her out?

Screw that mess.

Big kudos for your attempt. Epic FAIL for *them* for their response.

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