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Author Topic: Anyone here know anything about Conservative Judaism?  (Read 834 times)
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Darkstar One
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« on: August 21, 2006, 07:53:12 PM »

A friend of mine is getting married in a couple of months.  He's ticked off because the Rabbi who's performing the ceremony wants a couple of the women who are going to be wearing
sleeveless/strapless gowns to wear shawls to cover themselves when they're under the chupa.  Is this normal in a Conservative Jewish wedding?
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Doopri
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2006, 11:34:05 PM »

ya its not abnormal - and i would tell your friend if something as simple as asking a few people to wear a shawl is difficult, he might want to consider why hes wasting his and a rabbis time in marrying him and his new wife
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Darkstar One
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 01:06:17 AM »

The problem is that my friend's fiancee was brought up in a MUCH more religious environment, shall we say, than his fiancee.

He finds it offensive to ask them to cover up just because they're women--I believe his quote was "Why doesn't the rabbi have them wear a !@#@! burqa and be done with it".

He feels like everyone's beliefs but his are being respected.
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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 01:27:17 AM »

Quote from: Darkstar One on August 22, 2006, 01:06:17 AM


He finds it offensive to ask them to cover up just because they're women--I believe his quote was "Why doesn't the rabbi have them wear a !@#@! burqa and be done with it".



Are there going to be men with bare arms and shoulders who won't be asked to put on a shawl?   icon_biggrin
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 01:30:16 AM »

Quote from: Darkstar One on August 22, 2006, 01:06:17 AM

He feels like everyone's beliefs but his are being respected.

Then he and his fiancee should get married by a justice of the peace.  If they want a secular wedding, the option is available.  If, however, it is important for him to respect his fiancee's family and their religion and traditions then he'll need to suck it up and deal with it.

Trust me, a good way to screw up your future marriage is to start out by offending your wife's parents' religion.
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Ralph-Wiggum
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 02:12:18 AM »

But he'll covered, too - I assume the rabbi won't let him under the chupa without a yarmulke.
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Darkstar One
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 02:51:15 AM »

Yep, you assume correctly.

The problem is that his fiancee's two friends also have objections to this.  It puts them, his fiancee, and him in a very awkward position.

From what I've gathered so far this seems to be an unusual request for the rabbi of a Conservative shul.   Apparently the rabbi, personally, is himself Orthodox--what he's doing
as rabbi of a Conservative shul I don't know.  But the fact that he is himself personally Orthodox.  But this seems to be something the rabbi could have told them about this more in advance--they have all their arrangements (ceremony/reception) thru that temple, so it's a little late in the game to go somewhere else--to say nothing of the fact that his future mother-in-law is President of the Sisterhood there, and his future father-in-law is Temple vice-president.

What makes my friend teed off is that this rabbi has no problem sitting at a table at the reception with women, and has no problem going to a reception where men will be dancing with women.  And a couple of their friends will be women dancing with women, for the matter.  That he's got no problem with, but he's insisting on something that is offensive to the groom and two of the bridesmaids?  I call that hypocrisy, sorry frown.
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Laner
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2006, 04:07:22 AM »

Why would this be offensive to him?  If he's marrying into a orthodox Jewish family, he's going to have to deal with it sooner rather than later.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2006, 04:52:11 AM »

Quote from: Laner on August 22, 2006, 04:07:22 AM

Why would this be offensive to him?  If he's marrying into a orthodox Jewish family, he's going to have to deal with it sooner rather than later.
Orthodox and conservative judiasm are two very different things.
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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2006, 01:00:37 PM »

The problem is that his fiancee's two friends also have objections to this.

It is not the friends wedding if they have been asked to cover up then do it or don't participate.  The wedding is the brides day.  If the bride does not have an issue with it then comply.
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« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2006, 01:08:18 PM »

Quote from: Darkstar One on August 22, 2006, 02:51:15 AM

Yep, you assume correctly.

The problem is that his fiancee's two friends also have objections to this.  It puts them, his fiancee, and him in a very awkward position.

From what I've gathered so far this seems to be an unusual request for the rabbi of a Conservative shul.   Apparently the rabbi, personally, is himself Orthodox--what he's doing
as rabbi of a Conservative shul I don't know.  But the fact that he is himself personally Orthodox.  But this seems to be something the rabbi could have told them about this more in advance--they have all their arrangements (ceremony/reception) thru that temple, so it's a little late in the game to go somewhere else--to say nothing of the fact that his future mother-in-law is President of the Sisterhood there, and his future father-in-law is Temple vice-president.

What makes my friend teed off is that this rabbi has no problem sitting at a table at the reception with women, and has no problem going to a reception where men will be dancing with women.  And a couple of their friends will be women dancing with women, for the matter.  That he's got no problem with, but he's insisting on something that is offensive to the groom and two of the bridesmaids?  I call that hypocrisy, sorry frown.

It seems to me that the rabbi places a special value/sanctity on the chupam, thus a specific type of behavior and dress while under it.  How is allowing other types of behavior/dress in other situations being hypocritical?
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JLu
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2006, 01:13:26 PM »

I'd argue that the wedding is the couple's day -- but it is 75% about the bride...  There are conditions to being married in certain places, and that's just part of it.  It isn't like they have to wear the shawls for the reception too or anything?  Just a matter of respect for the beliefs. 

The options are to not have it at the temple, or to have them wear the shawls for the ceremony.  That really doesn't seem like it is that big a deal.  Every wedding has some issue pop up near the end that is going to cause a headache; if this is their big one, I'd count them fortunate. 

I'm more confused why the friends have such an issue with wearing shawls in a place of worship?  I'd guess this is a younger couple?
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Jag
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2006, 05:11:14 PM »

I was raised conservative and this does sound more like orthodox than conservative behavior. I think the bare shoulder, etc would be fine for a conservative wedding.

On a different note a few years back, I was at my cousin's wedding. As soon as they left the chupa, the entire thing came crashing down (no one was hurt). However they were divorced within 6 months  icon_lol
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mytocles
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 03:34:31 PM »

For a better understanding of the lives of Orthodox Jews - good and bad - try suggesting some novels by Chaim Potok.  He is one of my all-time favorite authors who has given me a wonderful view into the Jewish Orthodox world (sigh... I was raised Catholic with it's own specific sets of rituals, at the time, not as strict certainly - but "in my day," for example, there were times we fasted all day, even the kids).

There is also a movie that was made from one of the books... Robbie Benson starred in it and he was the Orthodox Jew. His friend was either a liberal or a non-Jew, I can't remember that, or the name of the movie, as usual!.  disgust

And I also don't understand railing against the wishes of the Rabbi.  It's simply an issue of respect - I wouldn't go to a wake wearing jeans although with my muscle disorder it is actually painful to dress up.  And if he didn't know what he was getting into, he should have researched it and would now be better able to explain the issues to his friends, I would think.  :icon_confused:
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2006, 04:22:25 PM »

I think you should be concerned for the future of your friend's marriage if he's this desperate to find fault with the actual proceedings.

Ten minutes of wearing a shawl = wearing a burka whenever you're in public?  Give me a fucking break.

Sounds to me like he's either scared shitless of getting married and he's looking for anything to vent that angst over, or he's having doubts about getting married and is looking for a way to stall or outright escape it.
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