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Author Topic: Amy Winehouse found dead in London  (Read 4244 times)
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ATB
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« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2011, 12:57:58 PM »

Addiction is a beast.
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« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2011, 01:20:51 PM »

Some folks sound unsympathetic about her death because (at least in my case) they realize she had numerous opportunities to get herself straight, but chose to continue down the path she did.  It comes to a point with this type of person when it becomes clear they aren't going to accept ANYONE'S help and that there's nothing that can be done for them until they decide they need help...and sadly, that point can be reached too late in the game.  You can't help but be angry with this type of person if you respected or cared about them.   icon_cry

I have a friend I grew up with who was a nurse.  He had access to drugs because of this.  After a car accident years ago, he got hooked on pain killers.  Eventually, he lost his nursing license (and male nurses make pretty damn good money), went to jail for a year, lost his house, his wife left him and he ended up working as a night monitor for an electronic alarm company after he came out.

EVEN after all that, he couldn't stop.  He started faking anxiety attacks so his doctor would prescribe Klonopin and buying oxy off a street dealer he was hooked up with while in jail.  

Eventually, he was fired from the security job after his boss walked in on him passed out...while alarms were going off for a client's store on the dashboard in front of him.  Then he wanted to come live with me in Chicago (he was back in Ohio) and became angry with me when I told him it was best that he move back to his parent's house and get the help he needed (I can barely take care of myself, let alone an addict).  We haven't talked since.  I've tried to contact him, but the last I heard he was back to his old ways.

Throughout all this, his friends tried to help.  But he lied to all of us at every turn (one time he failed to pay his dealer and the guy beat the crap out of him...and he told us it was from falling down playing basketball, then from a robbery, and finally it was due to walking into a door frame).  An addict that far gone will do whatever it takes to get what they want.  They're not bad people because of it, but eventually you realize that some of them need to get to the very bottom of the barrel before they'll take it seriously enough to get help.  Sadly, the bottom of the barrel oftentimes is an overdose.  
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 01:48:35 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2011, 01:22:13 PM »

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 12:41:08 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Addiction is a sickness. Like depression, ocd, and a plethora of other mental diseases. She was sick. Very sick. Does anyone in their right mind live like she did?
Its just that the stigma of mental diseases is still very much alive. Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

+1  the callousness in here is disappointing.  Maybe if she was a talentless bum you all would be more sympathetic?  The fact some of you use that to support your non sympathy makes you look jealous to be honest.  An over abundence of talent or wealth or whatever does not add any value to one s life, I just do not understand that logic.  All life is precious.

Well Im the one who mentioned I was more sympathetic towards a homeless person who did not have all the advantages that Amy Winehouse did or the means to get help.  I never said I was unsympathetic to her plight.  You are welcome to infer that I am though, if it makes you feel better or more "holier than thou".
  I place a very high value on life and am saddened by its loss.  It doesnt matter whether its a bum or a star.  The life style that Amy lived has taken many lives and many who have lived that life have survived close calls and made the changes needed.  Recognizing that fact is not callous. Its realistic. Hopefully more young and up and coming stars recognize that dangers of fame and avoid falling into the same trap.  That way at least her sad end will help someone else avoid the same fate.
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« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2011, 01:31:49 PM »

Quote from: ATB on July 25, 2011, 12:57:58 PM

Addiction is a beast.

That about sums it up.

I think it's only normal to not feel any sympathy for any addict who willingly kills herself with drugs and alcohol. It's hard to understand how someone can just collapse to their personal demons. It's a terrible, powerful disease. Although her failing was no different than that of countless addicts who succumb to the disease, it's remarkable because of the talent she had. And, yes, she did have talent, and completely wasted it. Do a search on Youtube for her music videos for 'Fuck Me Pumps' and 'In My Bed'. Both videos are from her very first record, 'Frank' (2003). You can see how talented--and beautiful--she was back then. It makes her decline particularly saddening.
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« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2011, 01:37:00 PM »

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 12:41:08 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Addiction is a sickness. Like depression, ocd, and a plethora of other mental diseases. She was sick. Very sick. Does anyone in their right mind live like she did?
Its just that the stigma of mental diseases is still very much alive. Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

+1  the callousness in here is disappointing.  Maybe if she was a talentless bum you all would be more sympathetic?  The fact some of you use that to support your non sympathy makes you look jealous to be honest.  An over abundence of talent or wealth or whatever does not add any value to one s life, I just do not understand that logic.  All life is precious.

With all do respect, that's a load of crap.

This IDIOT got to a place in her life that millions would love to do, but she chose to be selfish about it and self-destruct. I would love to have musical talent, if just for entertaining friends or family. I would love to have even a part of the money she had (before squandering it) to live a better life and to help others around me with it.

This isn't jealousy. This is a recognition, acknowledgment and then a disgust of a failed human life that was in a position to help MANY others, instead of just being selfish.

.

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« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2011, 01:38:47 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

Winehouse's equivalent would be a person with said physical disease not only ignoring a clinic two steps outside their door that had extended multiple invitations for completely free treatment, but also breaking out all their windows in order to maintain public persona as a "Hollywood bad boy/girl". 

Folks have already mentioned this, but my issue with Winehouse stems from the fact that she was afforded every possible opportunity to get help.   The saddest part (to me) is that being sober would have meant she wasn't getting as many headlines, which seemed like a sacrifice she wasn't willing to make. 
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« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2011, 01:40:12 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 01:37:00 PM


With all do respect, that's a load of crap.

This IDIOT got to a place in her life that millions would love to do, but she chose to be selfish about it and self-destruct. I would love to have musical talent, if just for entertaining friends or family. I would love to have even a part of the money she had (before squandering it) to live a better life and to help others around me with it.

This isn't jealousy. This is a recognition, acknowledgment and then a disgust of a failed human life that was in a position to help MANY others, instead of just being selfish.

.



Does not compute.
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« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2011, 01:41:56 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 01:37:00 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 12:41:08 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Addiction is a sickness. Like depression, ocd, and a plethora of other mental diseases. She was sick. Very sick. Does anyone in their right mind live like she did?
Its just that the stigma of mental diseases is still very much alive. Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

+1  the callousness in here is disappointing.  Maybe if she was a talentless bum you all would be more sympathetic?  The fact some of you use that to support your non sympathy makes you look jealous to be honest.  An over abundence of talent or wealth or whatever does not add any value to one s life, I just do not understand that logic.  All life is precious.

With all do respect, that's a load of crap.

This IDIOT got to a place in her life that millions would love to do, but she chose to be selfish about it and self-destruct. I would love to have musical talent, if just for entertaining friends or family. I would love to have even a part of the money she had (before squandering it) to live a better life and to help others around me with it.

This isn't jealousy. This is a recognition, acknowledgment and then a disgust of a failed human life that was in a position to help MANY others, instead of just being selfish.

.



Ever been addicted to anything, Zeke? I don't mean like chocolate or Lost.  I mean physically and psychologically addicted.
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« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2011, 01:47:38 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on July 25, 2011, 01:38:47 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

Winehouse's equivalent would be a person with said physical disease not only ignoring a clinic two steps outside their door that had extended multiple invitations for completely free treatment, but also breaking out all their windows in order to maintain public persona as a "Hollywood bad boy/girl".  

Folks have already mentioned this, but my issue with Winehouse stems from the fact that she was afforded every possible opportunity to get help.   The saddest part (to me) is that being sober would have meant she wasn't getting as many headlines, which seemed like a sacrifice she wasn't willing to make.  

Bad analogy.  Depression/addiction/mental treatment is not the same as treating anything else.  It has a staggeringly high failure rate.  Plus, how do you know she ignored seeking treatment?  Hint: she didn't but like most addicts she was unable to overcome her issues.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 01:53:21 PM by morlac » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2011, 01:53:37 PM »

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 01:47:38 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 25, 2011, 01:38:47 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

Winehouse's equivalent would be a person with said physical disease not only ignoring a clinic two steps outside their door that had extended multiple invitations for completely free treatment, but also breaking out all their windows in order to maintain public persona as a "Hollywood bad boy/girl".  

Folks have already mentioned this, but my issue with Winehouse stems from the fact that she was afforded every possible opportunity to get help.   The saddest part (to me) is that being sober would have meant she wasn't getting as many headlines, which seemed like a sacrifice she wasn't willing to make.  

Bad analogy.  Depression/addiction/mental treatment is not the same as treating anything else.  It has a staggeringly high failure rate.  

i don't think he's too far off on part of the analogy, to be honest.  Mental illness oftentimes prevents you from seeing you have a problem.  Addicts are usually quite aware they have a problem.  They just choose not to seek help because it feels horrible when they try to stop/feels great when they're high.  They can choose to enter rehab/get help, then get clean.  And sometimes they do (supposedly Amy did this at least once).  But the recidivism is the most frustrating aspect for many of us.   They sometimes get clean...but the love of that feeling drives them right back.  

On a side note, I think we as a society are starting to romanticize addiction more and more.  I fear at the end of the day, that's going to hurt more than it helps.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 01:59:59 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2011, 02:00:15 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 01:53:37 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 01:47:38 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 25, 2011, 01:38:47 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

Winehouse's equivalent would be a person with said physical disease not only ignoring a clinic two steps outside their door that had extended multiple invitations for completely free treatment, but also breaking out all their windows in order to maintain public persona as a "Hollywood bad boy/girl". 

Folks have already mentioned this, but my issue with Winehouse stems from the fact that she was afforded every possible opportunity to get help.   The saddest part (to me) is that being sober would have meant she wasn't getting as many headlines, which seemed like a sacrifice she wasn't willing to make. 



Bad analogy.  Depression/addiction/mental treatment is not the same as treating anything else.  It has a staggeringly high failure rate.  

i don't think he's too far off on part of the analogy, to be honest.  Mental illness oftentimes prevents you from seeing you have a problem.  Addicts are usually quite aware they have a problem.  They just choose not to seek help because it feels horrible when they try to stop/feels great when they're high.  They can choose to enter rehab/get help, then get clean.  And sometimes they do (supposedly Amy did this at least once).  But the recidivism is the most frustrating aspect for many of us.   They sometimes get clean...but the love of that feeling drives them right back. 

You CAN NOT compare mental diseases to physical disease.  It just does not work.  The disease itself helps prevents the inflicted from seeking medical help as you mention. Therefore comparing it to a physical treatment is completely pointless.  Yes she had opportunities to get help, yes she admitted she had issues, yes she was in denial on how severe it was.  This is textbook stuff here.  She was manic depressive which lead to here addictions.  That combo is about as bad as it can get.
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« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2011, 02:03:08 PM »

To the swastika thing, I don't think the world is yet ready to let go of the National Socialist Party of Germany just yet. I hear they're making a Shindlers List II - Palistine Stole Our Land. Sure, the swastika may have had other uses, but when someone kills 20+ million people of all walks of life under the banner, the world doesn't say "Hey, that'd be a cool icon to use for the App Store!"

As for the confederate flag, it doesn't have the same world impact, but I'm willing to bet that the resentment of the North American people (certainly the would-be-slaves) could fill up a cup of rage or two. If someone wants to be noticed, they find a stick and stir up the shit. It isn't worth the time of day though, and just like the Japanese Rising Sun flag which represented the flags flown while Pearl Harbor was bombed, I can't think of a more offensive piece of Americana trash for Darkstar One to tote as a means of getting attention, or for Zeke to rigorously defend.

Hep, I remember the thread where you battled with what to do about your friend. I still think you've done the right thing - he is, and was, far beyond your help.

On to Amy Winehouse - her addiction clearly won the battle, and supposing it was meant as an act to gain public attention is folly. Generally speaking, addiction-riddled stars try to hide their skeletons; the ones who cannot are (generally) being consumed by them. I would put Sheen on the list of those who are pulling a stunt landing off a career of high-profile crashes. I don't think Amy was big enough to have even thought that; I'd guess her thoughts were more concerned with the paradise she was trying to find at the bottom the bottle. People trade in their entire lives for their addictions (including their lives). It is a beast that consumes rich and poor, young and old, smart and dumb alike.

Dear Amy,

you sang like an angel - but you don't need me to tell you that- they'll tell you that themselves.

RIP.
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« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2011, 02:03:58 PM »

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:00:15 PM

She was manic depressive which lead to here addictions.  That combo is about as bad as it can get.

Do we have medical proof of this beyond her telling interviewers in papers and on television that it was true?  The reason I ask is because it's par for the course for an addict to try and rationalize their addiction as something beyond their ability to control.
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« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2011, 02:05:46 PM »

Quote from: ATB on July 25, 2011, 01:41:56 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 01:37:00 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 12:41:08 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Addiction is a sickness. Like depression, ocd, and a plethora of other mental diseases. She was sick. Very sick. Does anyone in their right mind live like she did?
Its just that the stigma of mental diseases is still very much alive. Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

+1  the callousness in here is disappointing.  Maybe if she was a talentless bum you all would be more sympathetic?  The fact some of you use that to support your non sympathy makes you look jealous to be honest.  An over abundence of talent or wealth or whatever does not add any value to one s life, I just do not understand that logic.  All life is precious.

With all do respect, that's a load of crap.

This IDIOT got to a place in her life that millions would love to do, but she chose to be selfish about it and self-destruct. I would love to have musical talent, if just for entertaining friends or family. I would love to have even a part of the money she had (before squandering it) to live a better life and to help others around me with it.

This isn't jealousy. This is a recognition, acknowledgment and then a disgust of a failed human life that was in a position to help MANY others, instead of just being selfish.

.



Ever been addicted to anything, Zeke? I don't mean like chocolate or Lost.  I mean physically and psychologically addicted.

Plenty of people DON'T get addicted to life-ruining drugs everyday, and plenty of people get help and beat it if they do.

Im not buying the victim crap here. She chose poorly.

Quote
Hint: she didn't but like most addicts she was unable to overcome her issues.

she was an IDIOT
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« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2011, 02:10:02 PM »

On the other hand, I'm definitely not in the same camp as Zeke.  That's being TOO harsh, imho.  While I don't blame the addiction itself to the extent that others do, I also don't subscribe to the belief that it's as simple as putting down the crack pipe and walking outside clean and sober.
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« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2011, 02:16:25 PM »

They tried to make her go to rehab. She said noooo. No. No.

RIP Amy. slywink
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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2011, 02:18:18 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 02:03:58 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:00:15 PM

She was manic depressive which lead to here addictions.  That combo is about as bad as it can get.

Do we have medical proof of this beyond her telling interviewers in papers and on television that it was true?  The reason I ask is because it's par for the course for an addict to try and rationalize their addiction as something beyond their ability to control.

Great point, I don't think we do as she avoided treatment as most do plus it is not easily diagnosed as it involves self reporting of episodes and lots of observation, ise there is not a medical 'test for it.  She certainly exhibited most of the symptoms.  Eating disorders, mood swings, depression, creative talent (oddly enough there are studies that the two are linked).  It's tough to play the which came first game, the depression or the addiction.  I believe the prior lead to the later, as it usually does and then the vicious cycle of self medication starts without end.  Just go listen to her lyrics and then tell me she was not battling depression demons.  here's a good read for you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/amy-winehouse-another-tragic-victim-of-manic-depression/2011/07/24/gIQAW3FJXI_story.html?wprss=rss_music
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« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2011, 02:18:25 PM »

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:00:15 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 01:53:37 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 01:47:38 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 25, 2011, 01:38:47 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

Winehouse's equivalent would be a person with said physical disease not only ignoring a clinic two steps outside their door that had extended multiple invitations for completely free treatment, but also breaking out all their windows in order to maintain public persona as a "Hollywood bad boy/girl".  

Folks have already mentioned this, but my issue with Winehouse stems from the fact that she was afforded every possible opportunity to get help.   The saddest part (to me) is that being sober would have meant she wasn't getting as many headlines, which seemed like a sacrifice she wasn't willing to make.  



Bad analogy.  Depression/addiction/mental treatment is not the same as treating anything else.  It has a staggeringly high failure rate.  

i don't think he's too far off on part of the analogy, to be honest.  Mental illness oftentimes prevents you from seeing you have a problem.  Addicts are usually quite aware they have a problem.  They just choose not to seek help because it feels horrible when they try to stop/feels great when they're high.  They can choose to enter rehab/get help, then get clean.  And sometimes they do (supposedly Amy did this at least once).  But the recidivism is the most frustrating aspect for many of us.   They sometimes get clean...but the love of that feeling drives them right back.  

You CAN NOT compare mental diseases to physical disease.  It just does not work.  The disease itself helps prevents the inflicted from seeking medical help as you mention. Therefore comparing it to a physical treatment is completely pointless.  Yes she had opportunities to get help, yes she admitted she had issues, yes she was in denial on how severe it was.  This is textbook stuff here.  She was manic depressive which lead to here addictions.  That combo is about as bad as it can get.

I'd actually agree you can't compare the two.  I was just trying to make an analogy to address Arclight's comment about being as as flip if it were a physical disease.

I guess my problem with Winehouse was that her attitude seemed to be "I'm fully aware I'm an addict, but am having a hell of a good time partying, there's nothing you can do about it, I'm getting paid...so fuck you".  Is that mental illness, or simply a massively out-of-control ego/attention whore?  Probably a little of both, I suppose.

I've probably softened a bit from my initial reaction, but I still think there needs to be some aspect of personal accountability before I feel much sympathy for her.  No, she couldn't just put the drugs down and walk away, but I also don't think she gets a completely free pass simply because of her demons.  
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« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2011, 02:20:14 PM »

Quote
As for the confederate flag, it doesn't have the same world impact, but I'm willing to bet that the resentment of the North American people (certainly the would-be-slaves) could fill up a cup of rage or two. If someone wants to be noticed, they find a stick and stir up the shit. It isn't worth the time of day though, and just like the Japanese Rising Sun flag which represented the flags flown while Pearl Harbor was bombed, I can't think of a more offensive piece of Americana trash for Darkstar One to tote as a means of getting attention, or for Zeke to rigorously defend.

I find it offensive that a Canadian has the audacity to think he knows what the Confederate Flag means to all Americans. I think it's YOUR problem if you choose to associate that flag with only negative connotations. How many people around the world proudly wear a Che avatar or piece of clothing? And yet the same ones that would frown upon this flag have nothing to say when it comes to this murderer. Such hypocrisy.

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« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2011, 02:22:16 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 02:10:02 PM

On the other hand, I'm definitely not in the same camp as Zeke.  That's being TOO harsh, imho.  While I don't blame the addiction itself to the extent that others do, I also don't subscribe to the belief that it's as simple as putting down the crack pipe and walking outside clean and sober.

Are you ok with thousands of lazy, weak people collecting a weekly check at all of our expense in the name of "rehab"?
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« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2011, 02:24:55 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on July 25, 2011, 02:18:25 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:00:15 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 01:53:37 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 01:47:38 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 25, 2011, 01:38:47 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

Winehouse's equivalent would be a person with said physical disease not only ignoring a clinic two steps outside their door that had extended multiple invitations for completely free treatment, but also breaking out all their windows in order to maintain public persona as a "Hollywood bad boy/girl".  

Folks have already mentioned this, but my issue with Winehouse stems from the fact that she was afforded every possible opportunity to get help.   The saddest part (to me) is that being sober would have meant she wasn't getting as many headlines, which seemed like a sacrifice she wasn't willing to make.  



Bad analogy.  Depression/addiction/mental treatment is not the same as treating anything else.  It has a staggeringly high failure rate.  

i don't think he's too far off on part of the analogy, to be honest.  Mental illness oftentimes prevents you from seeing you have a problem.  Addicts are usually quite aware they have a problem.  They just choose not to seek help because it feels horrible when they try to stop/feels great when they're high.  They can choose to enter rehab/get help, then get clean.  And sometimes they do (supposedly Amy did this at least once).  But the recidivism is the most frustrating aspect for many of us.   They sometimes get clean...but the love of that feeling drives them right back.  

You CAN NOT compare mental diseases to physical disease.  It just does not work.  The disease itself helps prevents the inflicted from seeking medical help as you mention. Therefore comparing it to a physical treatment is completely pointless.  Yes she had opportunities to get help, yes she admitted she had issues, yes she was in denial on how severe it was.  This is textbook stuff here.  She was manic depressive which lead to here addictions.  That combo is about as bad as it can get.

I'd actually agree you can't compare the two.  I was just trying to make an analogy to address Arclight's comment about being as as flip if it were a physical disease.

I guess my problem with Winehouse was that her attitude seemed to be "I'm fully aware I'm an addict, but am having a hell of a good time partying, there's nothing you can do about it, I'm getting paid...so fuck you".  Is that mental illness, or simply a massively out-of-control ego/attention whore?  Probably a little of both, I suppose.

I've probably softened a bit from my initial reaction, but I still think there needs to be some aspect of personal accountability before I feel much sympathy for her.  No, she couldn't just put the drugs down and walk away, but I also don't think she gets a completely free pass simply because of her demons.  

Gratch, that wasn't just her attitude. That's the attitude of every addict out there. People with families, marriages, children.. people who love them. They still piss it all away and kill themselves because of the disease.
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« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2011, 02:27:24 PM »

Ya know...this topic and some of your responses just bowls me over. How many of you here have participated in pile-ons of other forum members that think outside of your box, what you deemed "stupid" or "idiotic"?

how many have come down on Darkstar already for his avatar, labeling him badly and ready to write him off or shame him?

Yet a drug addict gets sympathy and understanding?

Really??

.
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« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2011, 02:28:57 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:22:16 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 02:10:02 PM

On the other hand, I'm definitely not in the same camp as Zeke.  That's being TOO harsh, imho.  While I don't blame the addiction itself to the extent that others do, I also don't subscribe to the belief that it's as simple as putting down the crack pipe and walking outside clean and sober.

Are you ok with thousands of lazy, weak people collecting a weekly check at all of our expense in the name of "rehab"?

Drug abusers/addicts = Lazy?  And what is this weekly check addicts get?  how much is it?  I might have to rethink my career path.
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« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2011, 02:30:54 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:05:46 PM

Plenty of people DON'T get addicted to life-ruining drugs everyday, and plenty of people get help and beat it if they do.


Dodge.  Dodge. Dodge. Dodge.  I guess that's a no then.
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« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2011, 02:31:04 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 02:03:58 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:00:15 PM

She was manic depressive which lead to here addictions.  That combo is about as bad as it can get.

Do we have medical proof of this beyond her telling interviewers in papers and on television that it was true?  The reason I ask is because it's par for the course for an addict to try and rationalize their addiction as something beyond their ability to control.

That thread is Schrödinger's cat. Irrefutably dead by the time the argument is over.
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« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2011, 02:32:33 PM »

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:28:57 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:22:16 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 02:10:02 PM

On the other hand, I'm definitely not in the same camp as Zeke.  That's being TOO harsh, imho.  While I don't blame the addiction itself to the extent that others do, I also don't subscribe to the belief that it's as simple as putting down the crack pipe and walking outside clean and sober.

Are you ok with thousands of lazy, weak people collecting a weekly check at all of our expense in the name of "rehab"?

Drug abusers/addicts = Lazy?  And what is this weekly check addicts get?  how much is it?  I might have to rethink my career path.

+1. I need to get on crack with the quickness!
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« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2011, 02:32:43 PM »

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:28:57 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:22:16 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 02:10:02 PM

On the other hand, I'm definitely not in the same camp as Zeke.  That's being TOO harsh, imho.  While I don't blame the addiction itself to the extent that others do, I also don't subscribe to the belief that it's as simple as putting down the crack pipe and walking outside clean and sober.

Are you ok with thousands of lazy, weak people collecting a weekly check at all of our expense in the name of "rehab"?

Drug abusers/addicts = Lazy?  And what is this weekly check addicts get?  how much is it?  I might have to rethink my career path.

http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/govpubs/gao/gao20.htm
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« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2011, 02:34:31 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:27:24 PM

Ya know...this topic and some of your responses just bowls me over. How many of you here have participated in pile-ons of other forum members that think outside of your box, what you deemed "stupid" or "idiotic"?

how many have come down on Darkstar already for his avatar, labeling him badly and ready to write him off or shame him?

Yet a drug addict gets sympathy and understanding?

Really??

.

Pretty simple really.  Bigotry is not a mental disease though it can be ingrained over time from social influences.  In fact nobody is born a bigot, they are either taught to be one or teach themselves.  You know I can actually feel a little sympathetic for bigots in that regard.  What a terrible childhood they must have had to be filled with all that hate.  This is why I at times feel bad for you zeke, though I am pretty sure most of your comments are trollish so I am not convinced you are whom you portray to be.  If I am wrong then I am here if you ever need to talk about why you feel the way you do.  
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« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2011, 02:36:39 PM »

Quote from: ATB on July 25, 2011, 02:30:54 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:05:46 PM

Plenty of people DON'T get addicted to life-ruining drugs everyday, and plenty of people get help and beat it if they do.


Dodge.  Dodge. Dodge. Dodge.  I guess that's a no then.

No, I have never been addicted to something so strongly as to be harmful to me or those around me. I consider people strong for not giving in to peer pressure or daily problems or whatever the hell else addicts use to try and justify their weakness.

.
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« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2011, 02:37:22 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:36:39 PM

Quote from: ATB on July 25, 2011, 02:30:54 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:05:46 PM

Plenty of people DON'T get addicted to life-ruining drugs everyday, and plenty of people get help and beat it if they do.


Dodge.  Dodge. Dodge. Dodge.  I guess that's a no then.

No, I have never been addicted to something so strongly as to be harmful to me or those around me. I consider people strong for not giving in to peer pressure or daily problems or whatever the hell else addicts use to try and justify their weakness.

.

How about anger. Any anger issues? Got those fixed yet?  Streetfight any teens lately?
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« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2011, 02:37:41 PM »

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:34:31 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:27:24 PM

Ya know...this topic and some of your responses just bowls me over. How many of you here have participated in pile-ons of other forum members that think outside of your box, what you deemed "stupid" or "idiotic"?

how many have come down on Darkstar already for his avatar, labeling him badly and ready to write him off or shame him?

Yet a drug addict gets sympathy and understanding?

Really??

.

Pretty simple really.  Bigotry is not a mental disease though it can be ingrained over time from social influences.  In fact nobody is born a bigot, they are either taught to be one or teach themselves.  You know I can actually feel a little sympathetic for bigots in that regard.  What a terrible childhood they must have had to be filled with all that hate.  This is why I at times feel bad for you zeke, though I am pretty sure most of your comments are trollish so I am not convinced you are whom you portray to be.  If I am wrong then I am here if you ever need to talk about why you feel the way you do.  

LOL you crack me up  icon_lol
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« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2011, 02:38:15 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:20:14 PM

Quote
As for the confederate flag, it doesn't have the same world impact, but I'm willing to bet that the resentment of the North American people (certainly the would-be-slaves) could fill up a cup of rage or two. If someone wants to be noticed, they find a stick and stir up the shit. It isn't worth the time of day though, and just like the Japanese Rising Sun flag which represented the flags flown while Pearl Harbor was bombed, I can't think of a more offensive piece of Americana trash for Darkstar One to tote as a means of getting attention, or for Zeke to rigorously defend.

I find it offensive that a Canadian has the audacity to think he knows what the Confederate Flag means to all Americans. I think it's YOUR problem if you choose to associate that flag with only negative connotations. How many people around the world proudly wear a Che avatar or piece of clothing? And yet the same ones that would frown upon this flag have nothing to say when it comes to this murderer. Such hypocrisy.



Well, how about an American who’s parent’s grew up under segregation and trace their linage back to slavery in Virginia?   Can they be outraged? 
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« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2011, 02:38:23 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:27:24 PM

Ya know...this topic and some of your responses just bowls me over. How many of you here have participated in pile-ons of other forum members that think outside of your box, what you deemed "stupid" or "idiotic"?

how many have come down on Darkstar already for his avatar, labeling him badly and ready to write him off or shame him?

Yet a drug addict gets sympathy and understanding?

Really??

.

God love ya, Zeke.  You'll try and find a fight anywhere you can...and if you can't find one, you'll do whatever it takes to get one going.  I always love that turning point in your posts when you DO get one started though.  That point where you suddenly throw up your hands and declare yourself the victim.  THAT'S my favorite part.   icon_smile
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« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2011, 02:38:30 PM »

Quote from: ATB on July 25, 2011, 02:37:22 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:36:39 PM

Quote from: ATB on July 25, 2011, 02:30:54 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:05:46 PM

Plenty of people DON'T get addicted to life-ruining drugs everyday, and plenty of people get help and beat it if they do.


Dodge.  Dodge. Dodge. Dodge.  I guess that's a no then.

No, I have never been addicted to something so strongly as to be harmful to me or those around me. I consider people strong for not giving in to peer pressure or daily problems or whatever the hell else addicts use to try and justify their weakness.

.

How about anger. Any anger issues? Got those fixed yet?  Streetfight any teens lately?

WTF?

Really.....WTF?????????????

.
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« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2011, 02:40:48 PM »

Quote from: Soulchilde on July 25, 2011, 02:38:15 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:20:14 PM

Quote
As for the confederate flag, it doesn't have the same world impact, but I'm willing to bet that the resentment of the North American people (certainly the would-be-slaves) could fill up a cup of rage or two. If someone wants to be noticed, they find a stick and stir up the shit. It isn't worth the time of day though, and just like the Japanese Rising Sun flag which represented the flags flown while Pearl Harbor was bombed, I can't think of a more offensive piece of Americana trash for Darkstar One to tote as a means of getting attention, or for Zeke to rigorously defend.

I find it offensive that a Canadian has the audacity to think he knows what the Confederate Flag means to all Americans. I think it's YOUR problem if you choose to associate that flag with only negative connotations. How many people around the world proudly wear a Che avatar or piece of clothing? And yet the same ones that would frown upon this flag have nothing to say when it comes to this murderer. Such hypocrisy.



Well, how about an American who’s parent’s grew up under segregation and trace their linage back to slavery in Virginia?   Can they be outraged? 

Oh, so life-long outrage is both acceptable and encouraged now?

I think most of us can find something to be outraged over in our pasts. But most learn from it and try to make themselves better from it instead of clinging to it as a cop-out for the current life problems.

.
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« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2011, 02:41:50 PM »

Quote from: PR_GMR on July 25, 2011, 02:24:55 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 25, 2011, 02:18:25 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:00:15 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 01:53:37 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 01:47:38 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 25, 2011, 01:38:47 PM

Quote from: Arclight on July 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM

Would you be so flip with the death of somone who died of a physical disease they had been battling for years?

Winehouse's equivalent would be a person with said physical disease not only ignoring a clinic two steps outside their door that had extended multiple invitations for completely free treatment, but also breaking out all their windows in order to maintain public persona as a "Hollywood bad boy/girl".  

Folks have already mentioned this, but my issue with Winehouse stems from the fact that she was afforded every possible opportunity to get help.   The saddest part (to me) is that being sober would have meant she wasn't getting as many headlines, which seemed like a sacrifice she wasn't willing to make.  



Bad analogy.  Depression/addiction/mental treatment is not the same as treating anything else.  It has a staggeringly high failure rate.  

i don't think he's too far off on part of the analogy, to be honest.  Mental illness oftentimes prevents you from seeing you have a problem.  Addicts are usually quite aware they have a problem.  They just choose not to seek help because it feels horrible when they try to stop/feels great when they're high.  They can choose to enter rehab/get help, then get clean.  And sometimes they do (supposedly Amy did this at least once).  But the recidivism is the most frustrating aspect for many of us.   They sometimes get clean...but the love of that feeling drives them right back.  

You CAN NOT compare mental diseases to physical disease.  It just does not work.  The disease itself helps prevents the inflicted from seeking medical help as you mention. Therefore comparing it to a physical treatment is completely pointless.  Yes she had opportunities to get help, yes she admitted she had issues, yes she was in denial on how severe it was.  This is textbook stuff here.  She was manic depressive which lead to here addictions.  That combo is about as bad as it can get.

I'd actually agree you can't compare the two.  I was just trying to make an analogy to address Arclight's comment about being as as flip if it were a physical disease.

I guess my problem with Winehouse was that her attitude seemed to be "I'm fully aware I'm an addict, but am having a hell of a good time partying, there's nothing you can do about it, I'm getting paid...so fuck you".  Is that mental illness, or simply a massively out-of-control ego/attention whore?  Probably a little of both, I suppose.

I've probably softened a bit from my initial reaction, but I still think there needs to be some aspect of personal accountability before I feel much sympathy for her.  No, she couldn't just put the drugs down and walk away, but I also don't think she gets a completely free pass simply because of her demons.  

Gratch, that wasn't just her attitude. That's the attitude of every addict out there. People with families, marriages, children.. people who love them. They still piss it all away and kill themselves because of the disease.

I suppose, I'd just never seen anyone actively relish in it the way she seemed to.  But since it was directly tied to her livelihood (i.e. getting headlines), I guess it makes a little sense.

It's tough...that sort of self-destructive activity is just so utterly foreign to my way of thinking that I have a hell of a time wrapping my brain around it.  
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« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2011, 02:42:12 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 02:38:23 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:27:24 PM

Ya know...this topic and some of your responses just bowls me over. How many of you here have participated in pile-ons of other forum members that think outside of your box, what you deemed "stupid" or "idiotic"?

how many have come down on Darkstar already for his avatar, labeling him badly and ready to write him off or shame him?

Yet a drug addict gets sympathy and understanding?

Really??

.

God love ya, Zeke.  You'll try and find a fight anywhere you can...and if you can't find one, you'll do whatever it takes to get one going.  I always love that turning point in your posts when you DO get one started though.  That point where you suddenly throw up your hands and declare yourself the victim.  THAT'S my favorite part.   icon_smile

Not claiming to be a victim here, just pointing out the obvious and overwhelming hypocrisy some of you here have.

.
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« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2011, 02:42:49 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:32:43 PM

Quote from: morlac on July 25, 2011, 02:28:57 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:22:16 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 25, 2011, 02:10:02 PM

On the other hand, I'm definitely not in the same camp as Zeke.  That's being TOO harsh, imho.  While I don't blame the addiction itself to the extent that others do, I also don't subscribe to the belief that it's as simple as putting down the crack pipe and walking outside clean and sober.

Are you ok with thousands of lazy, weak people collecting a weekly check at all of our expense in the name of "rehab"?

Drug abusers/addicts = Lazy?  And what is this weekly check addicts get?  how much is it?  I might have to rethink my career path.

http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/govpubs/gao/gao20.htm

LOL, Got any links to info form this century?  Wow!

You do know congress repelled SS benefits for drug and alcohol addicts in 1995 right?


Plus that argument is asinine.  They were going to get those checks eventually when they retired just like you.  
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« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2011, 02:44:25 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:38:30 PM

Quote from: ATB on July 25, 2011, 02:37:22 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:36:39 PM

Quote from: ATB on July 25, 2011, 02:30:54 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:05:46 PM

Plenty of people DON'T get addicted to life-ruining drugs everyday, and plenty of people get help and beat it if they do.


Dodge.  Dodge. Dodge. Dodge.  I guess that's a no then.

No, I have never been addicted to something so strongly as to be harmful to me or those around me. I consider people strong for not giving in to peer pressure or daily problems or whatever the hell else addicts use to try and justify their weakness.

.

How about anger. Any anger issues? Got those fixed yet?  Streetfight any teens lately?

WTF?

Really.....WTF?????????????

.

Dodge. Dodge. Dodge. Dodge. I'll take that as a no.
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« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2011, 02:44:55 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:40:48 PM

Quote from: Soulchilde on July 25, 2011, 02:38:15 PM

Quote from: Zekester on July 25, 2011, 02:20:14 PM

Quote
As for the confederate flag, it doesn't have the same world impact, but I'm willing to bet that the resentment of the North American people (certainly the would-be-slaves) could fill up a cup of rage or two. If someone wants to be noticed, they find a stick and stir up the shit. It isn't worth the time of day though, and just like the Japanese Rising Sun flag which represented the flags flown while Pearl Harbor was bombed, I can't think of a more offensive piece of Americana trash for Darkstar One to tote as a means of getting attention, or for Zeke to rigorously defend.

I find it offensive that a Canadian has the audacity to think he knows what the Confederate Flag means to all Americans. I think it's YOUR problem if you choose to associate that flag with only negative connotations. How many people around the world proudly wear a Che avatar or piece of clothing? And yet the same ones that would frown upon this flag have nothing to say when it comes to this murderer. Such hypocrisy.



Well, how about an American who’s parent’s grew up under segregation and trace their linage back to slavery in Virginia?   Can they be outraged?  

Oh, so life-long outrage is both acceptable and encouraged now?

I think most of us can find something to be outraged over in our pasts. But most learn from it and try to make themselves better from it instead of clinging to it as a cop-out for the current life problems.

.

Really, what part of my statement are you attributing to  " THE MAN IS HOLDING ME DOWN" ?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 02:46:42 PM by Soulchilde » Logged

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