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Author Topic: All sorts of awesome: The Ocean Marketing customer service debacle  (Read 3513 times)
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PR_GMR
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« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2011, 04:47:54 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on December 29, 2011, 04:44:58 PM

Another PA comic seems appropriate here:



I was just thinking about the same thing:

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« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2011, 04:58:55 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 29, 2011, 04:39:20 PM

This is what I said yesterday:

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 28, 2011, 10:05:01 PM

Paul Christoforo's latest apology (at MSNBC) continues the trend:  he's like a guy who walks up to a stranger in the street and punches him in the face, and then later says "dude, sorry, I never would have punched you in the face if I had known that you were a black belt.  Can you stop spin-kicking me in the head now?"

This is what Christoforo says in an interview posted today:

Quote
Basically, what Mike [Krahulik] did is this: If you were in a bar, drinking and hanging out with a bunch of people, and in that group of people was one guy that you didnít know was a mixed martial arts champion. He knows he can kick the **** out of anyone in that bar, and you happen to pick a fight with him. He doesnít tell you what he is, you take a swing at him and the next thing you know you have a broken jaw and youíre on the way to the hospital.

Seriously, it's impossible to satirize the guy.

But I hope whoever did that interview got a breath mint and a handi-wipe afterwards.  It's revoltingly gentle and supportive.

This sums up this guys attitude.  Hes blaming the whole incident on Mike because Paul took a metaphorical swing at a black belt and got smacked down for it.  He doesnt apologize for his behavior.  He just trys to play the victim, now that hes paid the price.  Besides, Mike told him up front who he was, he didnt bushwack him.  The other thing I found amusing is his comment that he was caught on a bad day.  The documented asshattery on his part took place over weeks, at the very least.  So whats next?  He was caught having a bad month, a bad year?  The only remorse this guy feels is for getting busted on.  While the vile personal assaults on him are wrong, he deserves every thing he gets business wise.   
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« Reply #82 on: December 29, 2011, 05:14:35 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 29, 2011, 04:40:52 PM


Except Christoforo was using his name, acting on behalf of his employer.

What's a worse world, Grue:  this one, or the one in which the Christoforos of the world can act like that with impunity?

In this case, it's one in the same.  The same world brought about both sides of this.
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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2011, 05:22:35 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 05:14:35 PM

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 29, 2011, 04:40:52 PM


Except Christoforo was using his name, acting on behalf of his employer.

What's a worse world, Grue:  this one, or the one in which the Christoforos of the world can act like that with impunity?

In this case, it's one in the same.  The same world brought about both sides of this.

Okay.

So what should "Dave," the customer, have done? 

What should Mike have done?  (Unless it was wrong to bring Mike into the correspondence in the first place.)

What should people noting the exchange have done?
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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2011, 05:28:25 PM »

Broken link fixed:  http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegriffiths/2011/12/29/from-control-to-ko-paul-christoforo-interviewed/
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« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2011, 05:28:45 PM »

Someone in this thread is being intentionally obtuse.  If you have to ask who I'm talking about, it's probably you.  ninja
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« Reply #86 on: December 29, 2011, 06:14:00 PM »

Quote from: Paul Christoforo in Forbes
I mean, Iím all right. Thereís a lot of bad stuff on me right now, but today was a pretty good day. MSNBC put a real favourable piece up on me, there are a couple of radio interviews that Iím going to do, Spike TVís going to come to my house on Monday to shoot a piece on me.

LOL, this guy just isn't very bright. What's the mental condition called where you're not able to see your own character flaws regardless of how obvious they should be?
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« Reply #87 on: December 29, 2011, 06:28:52 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on December 29, 2011, 06:14:00 PM

Quote from: Paul Christoforo in Forbes
I mean, Iím all right. Thereís a lot of bad stuff on me right now, but today was a pretty good day. MSNBC put a real favourable piece up on me, there are a couple of radio interviews that Iím going to do, Spike TVís going to come to my house on Monday to shoot a piece on me.

LOL, this guy just isn't very bright. What's the mental condition called where you're not able to see your own character flaws regardless of how obvious they should be?

Narcissism. Yes, he's very much a narcissist.
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« Reply #88 on: December 29, 2011, 08:57:52 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 29, 2011, 05:22:35 PM

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 05:14:35 PM

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 29, 2011, 04:40:52 PM


Except Christoforo was using his name, acting on behalf of his employer.

What's a worse world, Grue:  this one, or the one in which the Christoforos of the world can act like that with impunity?

In this case, it's one in the same.  The same world brought about both sides of this.

Okay.

So what should "Dave," the customer, have done?  

What should Mike have done?  (Unless it was wrong to bring Mike into the correspondence in the first place.)

What should people noting the exchange have done?

Dave probably should have taken it through the various avenues that are available to him that don't involve looking like you're trying to incite a lot of drama by going to various Internet news sites to try to get publicity.  There are more subtle ways to take care of bad business practices.

Mike wouldn't have been a factor in this case had that happened.  I will give Mike credit for trying to take the high road by first trying to talk the guy and make him see reason.  When that failed, if I were Mike, I would have maybe advised the customer to go about the more subtle ways I mentioned of dealing with bad businesses.  Instead, Mike decided to crucify Paul using his influence on a substantial nerd army based on bully issues he harbors, going so far as to claim he would destroy everything he has worked for to make Paul or those like him pay.  This was Mike's opportunity to make up for the pain he felt as a kid being bullied and so he showed no mercy because he figured it would make him feel better.  Hopefully, if he's a good person, it didn't.  He seems to indicate it did, though.

People noting the exchange could have just not done business with the guy instead of trying to dig up every little piece of dirt on him, not made threats, etc.

In my eyes, everyone is at fault here.  I'm not defending Paul at all.   He's an ass.  I think he paid far more for his crimes than he deserved.  This kind of stuff should be reserved for pedophiles and murderers.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 08:59:50 PM by The Grue » Logged

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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #89 on: December 29, 2011, 09:17:28 PM »

I'm with you on "not make threats."  I can't agree with anything else.
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« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2011, 09:21:52 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 08:57:52 PM

This kind of stuff should be reserved for pedophiles and murderers.

Wat.
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« Reply #91 on: December 29, 2011, 09:27:51 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 29, 2011, 09:17:28 PM

I'm with you on "not make threats."  I can't agree with anything else.

Remind me never to piss you off, then.
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« Reply #92 on: December 29, 2011, 09:28:20 PM »

Quote from: gellar on December 29, 2011, 09:21:52 PM

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 08:57:52 PM

This kind of stuff should be reserved for pedophiles and murderers.

Wat.

The threats.

Edit - Actually, you know what?  It's more than the threats.  It's taking active joy in trying to bring someone down.  I don't get that mentality.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 09:31:53 PM by The Grue » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: December 29, 2011, 09:40:44 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 09:28:20 PM

Quote from: gellar on December 29, 2011, 09:21:52 PM

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 08:57:52 PM

This kind of stuff should be reserved for pedophiles and murderers.

Wat.

The threats.

Edit - Actually, you know what?  It's more than the threats.  It's taking active joy in trying to bring someone down.  I don't get that mentality.

It's because the assholes usually get away with it, and Paul would have gotten away with it too if Penny Arcade hadn't been involved. There are few things as satisfying as seeing an asshole get his comeuppance. Hell, if he had apologized (honestly, not like the stupid "let's see if I can placate these guys without admitting anything" efforts he's made so far) and tried to be humble, the shitstorm would have stopped almost immediately and this would have been a non-issue. Instead the guy keeps making it worse and worse for himself, egging on everyone in the process. Everything that has happened to him so far in this case (except threats, though I've yet to see a single one of them verified by anyone but Paul himself, and he's as questionable as sources come. He's even twisting the things Mike wrote to him, despite the fact that evidence to the contrary has been openly available online since day 1) has been well deserved and then some. Paul needs to hear this over and over until he realizes how much he fucked up.

Honestly, this is all his own damned fault. He's had opportunity after opportunity to stop this, he's been warned over and over again, and nobody (except the hypothetical threatener) has done anything beyond merely highlighting the guy's own words. He's doing this to himself and doesn't want to listen to the advice of people who're trying to help him.

Save your sympathies. They are lost on him.
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« Reply #94 on: December 29, 2011, 10:11:46 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on December 29, 2011, 09:40:44 PM


Save your sympathies. They are lost on him.

That's the thing...I'm not sympathizing with him.  I want everyone to play nice.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #95 on: December 29, 2011, 10:25:08 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 08:57:52 PM

Dave probably should have taken it through the various avenues that are available to him that don't involve looking like you're trying to incite a lot of drama by going to various Internet news sites to try to get publicity.  There are more subtle ways to take care of bad business practices.

More subtle way like what? Writing to tell others about it is exactly the best way to deal with bad customer service like this.

Dave got what he want, a $10 discount for him and all other customers who preordered. If he chose to go through the company, it'll still go to this Paul guy. If he chose to go to better business bureau, it'll not result in anything. So that left him with complaining to the media.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 10:56:33 PM by Victoria Raverna » Logged
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« Reply #96 on: December 29, 2011, 10:27:16 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 10:11:46 PM

Quote from: TiLT on December 29, 2011, 09:40:44 PM


Save your sympathies. They are lost on him.

That's the thing...I'm not sympathizing with him.  I want everyone to play nice.

Yes.

There's no really kind way to say this, and I don't mean to flame you, but:  sociopaths thrive because of that attitude.

People like Paul continue to be people like Paul and succeed at being people like Paul and carry on to mistreat future victims by relying on the decency, courtesy, and ingrained distaste for conflict of others.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #97 on: December 29, 2011, 10:31:25 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 10:11:46 PM

Quote from: TiLT on December 29, 2011, 09:40:44 PM


Save your sympathies. They are lost on him.

That's the thing...I'm not sympathizing with him.  I want everyone to play nice.

You don't want people to play nice. You want victim to take the abuse and keep quiet about it.
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« Reply #98 on: December 29, 2011, 10:34:07 PM »

Let me put it this way, Grue:  I was recently annoyed my a mail-fraud scammer.  I did a little digging and found things out about them.  I started to write about them.  I uncovered more and more -- a trail of victims conned out of money, some led into bankruptcy.

The scammers wife sent me emails begging me to stop writing because of her children, because her husband was just trying to provide for her family.  She did that the same week the guy was held to answer for leasing a car in the name of someone who applied for a job at his scam company (without the knowledge of the applicant).

Should I have stopped writing?  

As for joy -- somewhere, there is a company that would have hired Paul Christoforo, and now won't because they will Google them and find this.  Do you think that company minds that people are joyful that they found out about him before hiring him?
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« Reply #99 on: December 29, 2011, 11:05:32 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on December 29, 2011, 05:28:45 PM

Someone in this thread is being intentionally obtuse.  If you have to ask who I'm talking about, it's probably you.  ninja

Hmmm seems a bit obscure or in other words I seem to be in the dark.
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« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2011, 12:13:55 AM »

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on December 29, 2011, 10:31:25 PM

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 10:11:46 PM

Quote from: TiLT on December 29, 2011, 09:40:44 PM


Save your sympathies. They are lost on him.

That's the thing...I'm not sympathizing with him.  I want everyone to play nice.

You don't want people to play nice. You want victim to take the abuse and keep quiet about it.


Way to put words in his mouth. 

No one's suggesting the guy should've just rolled over.  But does anyone honestly believe death threats are an appropriate response to poor customer service?
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« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2011, 12:17:23 AM »

Quote from: Laner on December 30, 2011, 12:13:55 AM

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on December 29, 2011, 10:31:25 PM

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 10:11:46 PM

Quote from: TiLT on December 29, 2011, 09:40:44 PM


Save your sympathies. They are lost on him.

That's the thing...I'm not sympathizing with him.  I want everyone to play nice.

You don't want people to play nice. You want victim to take the abuse and keep quiet about it.


Way to put words in his mouth. 

No one's suggesting the guy should've just rolled over.  But does anyone honestly believe death threats are an appropriate response to poor customer service?

now you're the one putting words in people's mouths.  Not one person in this thread has agreed that the death threats are appropriate.  In fact almost everyone else has said it is NOT appropriate.  The conversation between Fed and Grue was mostly about Mike's response to Dave's email regarding Paul.  Mike did not go too far imo, and I believe that's what Fed was saying as well.  Grue seemed to think that Mike went too far with sharing the info with the 'net.

Before you jump to someone's defense, try to figure out what's being said by whom and to whom.  ninja
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« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2011, 12:24:38 AM »

I'm fully aware of who said what.  Grue is right.  Mike knows he has a huge megaphone.  And he knows that internet denizens can have sociopathic tendencies.  The fact that he thought hanging this guy out to dry (who was clearly in the wrong - don't misunderstand) and let the collective nerd rage loose on him was the wrong decision - a classic case of two wrongs not making a right.
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« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2011, 12:28:17 AM »

Quote from: Laner on December 30, 2011, 12:13:55 AM

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on December 29, 2011, 10:31:25 PM

Quote from: The Grue on December 29, 2011, 10:11:46 PM

Quote from: TiLT on December 29, 2011, 09:40:44 PM


Save your sympathies. They are lost on him.

That's the thing...I'm not sympathizing with him.  I want everyone to play nice.

You don't want people to play nice. You want victim to take the abuse and keep quiet about it.


Way to put words in his mouth.  

No one's suggesting the guy should've just rolled over.  But does anyone honestly believe death threats are an appropriate response to poor customer service?

No, but he was not just complaining about the death threat part, he claimed that Dave should choose not to send it to internet news site and choose a more subtle (maybe more quiet?) way to do it.

Here is Grue's words:
Quote
Dave probably should have taken it through the various avenues that are available to him that don't involve looking like you're trying to incite a lot of drama by going to various Internet news sites to try to get publicity.  There are more subtle ways to take care of bad business practices.

Here are list of possible way to deal with it:

1. Contact the company which was what Dave did.
2. Ask to speak to supervisor or manager which is impossible with this case because all e-maill to the company is managed by Paul.
3. Contact CEO. Probably also useless because any letter from customer to the CEO is probably going to this Paul again.
4. Report to Better Business Bureau. Pretty ineffective.
5. Report to media (which was what Dave did when he contacted Penny Arcade about it).

I think it is over the line to threaten the guy or his families, but Grue was totally wrong in blaming Dave the customer for reporting it to Penny Arcade. If you don't think he should report it to media to try to get publicity about the bad business practices then you're supporting the idea of take the abuse and keep quiet about it because there are no other effective way to deal with this guy.

By reporting to Mike, Dave got N-Control to finally respond with a deadline for delivery. Dave got N-Control to give people who preordered and got charged but didn't get the product as promised, the $10 discount that new customers can get if they now order the product.


« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 12:39:18 AM by Victoria Raverna » Logged
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« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2011, 12:32:05 AM »

Quote from: Laner on December 30, 2011, 12:24:38 AM

I'm fully aware of who said what.  Grue is right.  Mike knows he has a huge megaphone.  And he knows that internet denizens can have sociopathic tendencies.  The fact that he thought hanging this guy out to dry (who was clearly in the wrong - don't misunderstand) and let the collective nerd rage loose on him was the wrong decision - a classic case of two wrongs not making a right.

What, if anything, should Mike have done, and what do you think would have been the short-term and long-term result?

I can imagine a scenario where Mike makes direct contact with someone with the company (somehow -- note how Christoforo has been intercepting communications) and convinces them to pull Christoforo back a bit.

What do you think happens when the next customer, who didn't hear about this, writes to complain?
What do you think happens when Christoforo is representing his next client?
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« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2011, 12:33:48 AM »

Quote from: Laner on December 30, 2011, 12:24:38 AM

I'm fully aware of who said what.  Grue is right.  Mike knows he has a huge megaphone.  And he knows that internet denizens can have sociopathic tendencies.  The fact that he thought hanging this guy out to dry (who was clearly in the wrong - don't misunderstand) and let the collective nerd rage loose on him was the wrong decision - a classic case of two wrongs not making a right.

So you're for self censorship because it might cause problem? We should not post complain about a bad behaviour because the internet denizens can have sociopahic tendencies? We should not report about bad people because people might send death threats?

Mike didn't do much more than post the e-mails on his site. I don't think it is wrong to do that.

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« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2011, 01:00:12 AM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 30, 2011, 12:32:05 AM

Quote from: Laner on December 30, 2011, 12:24:38 AM

I'm fully aware of who said what.  Grue is right.  Mike knows he has a huge megaphone.  And he knows that internet denizens can have sociopathic tendencies.  The fact that he thought hanging this guy out to dry (who was clearly in the wrong - don't misunderstand) and let the collective nerd rage loose on him was the wrong decision - a classic case of two wrongs not making a right.

What, if anything, should Mike have done, and what do you think would have been the short-term and long-term result?

I can imagine a scenario where Mike makes direct contact with someone with the company (somehow -- note how Christoforo has been intercepting communications) and convinces them to pull Christoforo back a bit.

What do you think happens when the next customer, who didn't hear about this, writes to complain?
What do you think happens when Christoforo is representing his next client?


The part I find funny is that Christoforo has proven to have had a similar this twice already (at least) and learned absolutely nothing from the first time (because he had effectively no negative consequence) and has learned one incorrect lesson this time (it's OK to be a douche... so long as you know who you are being a douche to).  It's clear that this guy had this coming.
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« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2011, 01:23:50 AM »

Anyone who issues death threats should be prosecuted.  Beyond that, the fool is getting a deserved public shaming.  It isn't pleasant, but public ridicule is a very effective correction tool to those who pay attention.  It also warns the innocent just who the scum are.  If he would have given real apologies he could have done very well out of this.  "I was a jerk, liar, etc., and I screwed up royally.  I'll not do that again and I'm really sorry."  The internet says, "hey, he's a stand up guy who screwed up and took it on the chin and manned up.  He does his mea culpas and we forgive him."  End of story and a redeemed sinner is heralded by the masses.  Win.  Instead, epic fail for him.  I'm okay with that.
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« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2011, 01:30:42 AM »

But I'm sure he's totally learned his lesson.

In fact, he is so studious about examining his lesson that he can't find the time to return control of the company's email accounts to them. 
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« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2011, 01:35:04 AM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 30, 2011, 01:30:42 AM

But I'm sure he's totally learned his lesson.

In fact, he is so studious about examining his lesson that he can't find the time to return control of the company's email accounts to them. 

Wow, that has got to have legal repercussions no?
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« Reply #110 on: December 30, 2011, 01:38:24 AM »

Actual tweet from Christoforo a few hours ago TODAY:

Quote
I didn't know who the dude was at Penny Arcade - I really didn't do anything wrong, and my reputation is ruined forever

https://twitter.com/OceanStratagy/status/152520756222365697

Fuck you very much.
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« Reply #111 on: December 30, 2011, 02:05:02 AM »

Quote from: gellar on December 30, 2011, 01:38:24 AM

Actual tweet from Christoforo a few hours ago TODAY:

Quote
I didn't know who the dude was at Penny Arcade - I really didn't do anything wrong, and my reputation is ruined forever

https://twitter.com/OceanStratagy/status/152520756222365697

Fuck you very much.

TO be fair, gellar, I think he abandoned that account and it is now taken over by someone else (like his prior account).  He seems to be here as of now:  http://twitter.com/#!/OceanDeepSea
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« Reply #112 on: December 30, 2011, 02:30:21 AM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 30, 2011, 02:05:02 AM

Quote from: gellar on December 30, 2011, 01:38:24 AM

Actual tweet from Christoforo a few hours ago TODAY:

Quote
I didn't know who the dude was at Penny Arcade - I really didn't do anything wrong, and my reputation is ruined forever

https://twitter.com/OceanStratagy/status/152520756222365697

Fuck you very much.

TO be fair, gellar, I think he abandoned that account and it is now taken over by someone else (like his prior account).  He seems to be here as of now:  http://twitter.com/#!/OceanDeepSea


You'd think as an Internets and PR expert, he'd be better at this Twitter thing.
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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2011, 02:44:03 AM »

Quote from: gellar on December 30, 2011, 02:30:21 AM

Quote from: Mr. Fed on December 30, 2011, 02:05:02 AM

Quote from: gellar on December 30, 2011, 01:38:24 AM

Actual tweet from Christoforo a few hours ago TODAY:

Quote
I didn't know who the dude was at Penny Arcade - I really didn't do anything wrong, and my reputation is ruined forever

https://twitter.com/OceanStratagy/status/152520756222365697

Fuck you very much.

TO be fair, gellar, I think he abandoned that account and it is now taken over by someone else (like his prior account).  He seems to be here as of now:  http://twitter.com/#!/OceanDeepSea


You'd think as an Internets and PR expert, he'd be better at this Twitter thing.

According to another source, in an interview he blamed his almost entirely plagiarized marketing website on Indian subcontractors.

Which is understandable, if true.  I mean, there's no way a public relations and marketing guy who talks about specializing in online marketing and web presence would know anything about content subcontractors being problematical and requiring careful supervision.
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Nonnahob
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« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2011, 06:40:31 AM »

Indian content subcontractors? For your Twitter. Heh.
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morlac
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« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2011, 10:50:39 AM »

Derek Smart should so hire this clown to help market his next game.  Though the internet might just explode.
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Covenant
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« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2011, 02:15:07 PM »

This is no different than the stories you see on the news about corrupt assholes.  The internet heard the story, dug up the evidence and reported on it. And just like in the "real world" you get a fringe sector of people who send death threats and other nonsense (you hear about this same thing happening to shamed public figures all the time).

What exactly is the purpose of the media if not to inform the public of wrongdoings? I'd like to think the internet is more than a collection of forums and gaming sites.
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« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2011, 02:27:29 PM »

I think debacle is the wrong word. Hoopla. slywink
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« Reply #118 on: December 30, 2011, 03:20:15 PM »

Quote from: Covenant on December 30, 2011, 02:15:07 PM


 I'd like to think the internet is more than a collection of forums and gaming sites.


You would be correct.  It's actually a collection of porn sites.
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The Grue
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« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2011, 04:00:33 PM »

I understand why you guys feel the way you do and I've made my point and you've made yours.  I'm not one of those people who sits and argues on message boards as in the end, it doesn't much matter.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I think we can agree to disagree.  I did want to leave a link to another article that sums up my feelings and in a much better way than I could ever do.  If you're like me, you like reading about both sides of an issue.

http://kotaku.com/5872042/a-beatdown-where-no-one-threw-the-first-punch
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