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Author Topic: A Day Without Immigrants  (Read 3424 times)
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Knightshade Dragon
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« on: May 01, 2006, 03:02:32 PM »

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12573992/?GT1=8199

Has this started where you are at?  From where I'm sitting in Phoenix, this has had absolutely zero effect.  Wal-Mart was still open first thing this morning.  The day workers were still hanging out by the bus stops.  I STILL had to shoo people off of my damned low wall because they think its a seat.  Looks like business as usual.
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2006, 03:24:28 PM »

My shop here in Connecticut is right down the street from a local middle school.  When I got in this morning, there were several groups of Hispanic kids ranging from 12 to about 16 years old walking down the street carrying equal numbers of Mexican and American flags.  I thought at first that they were on their way to a rally or something, but instead they've spent the last three hours or so walking a route that takes them past the front of my store every once in a while.  They're not causing any problems or even chanting that I can tell -- just making themselves seen.

-Autistic Angel
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Zarkon
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2006, 03:40:24 PM »

Y'know what?  I'm sorry, you walk out of school / work?  Fire 'em.  Suspend 'em.  They want to fight for the plight of immigrant workers, let 'em compete with 'em for jobs.

We cannot have an immigration policy until we have a closed border.  A closed border would cut down on many things, but it probably won't happen anytime in the future.  Which is part of the reason the country is getting weaker, overall, because how can we be effective with foreign policy when we're completely ineffective in our domestic policy?
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2006, 03:48:24 PM »

Nothing to speak about here.  I went to my favorite fruit stand in Lexington Market and the Korean lady who owns the stand the Latino workers she employs where there as usual.  


I understand their plight, but I think they are fighting a losing battle.  The War on Terror>Immigrants rights.  Also, if some terrorist actions happens cause of our open borders expect the shit to really hit the fan for illegal immigrants
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2006, 04:15:00 PM »

Quote
Y'know what? I'm sorry, you walk out of school / work? Fire 'em. Suspend 'em.


You think the penalty for missing one day of school should be to miss *more* days of school?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2006, 04:18:40 PM »

Apparently, a rumor has been spreading throughout the latino community that the INS is using these rallies/protests/etc. to gather up all the illegals it can in one fell swoop.  it's causing quite a few to pull their kids from school and avoid work...not to attend rallies or protests, but to hide.
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 04:18:47 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote
Y'know what? I'm sorry, you walk out of school / work? Fire 'em. Suspend 'em.


You think the penalty for missing one day of school should be to miss *more* days of school?

-Autistic Angel


I think that has been the typical response of schools for years.  I missed 3 hours of class due to a busted lower radiator hose in my car - their solution was to make me miss the rest of the day. Makes sense don't it?
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2006, 04:38:19 PM »

Quote from: "hepcat"
Apparently, a rumor has been spreading throughout the latino community that the INS is using these rallies/protests/etc. to gather up all the illegals it can in one fell swoop.  it's causing quite a few to pull their kids from school and avoid work...not to attend rallies or protests, but to hide.


I mentioned that possibility yesterday to FH as a joke. I think it'd be funnier still if the INS actually did it.

And the US has a ~3,000 mile border with a third-world country. You can build all the fencing you want and still people will come over. Closing the border isn't possible, but it's a nice catch-all phrase from politicos who find themselves in an election year. slywink
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2006, 04:39:05 PM »

Citizens are protected under law to protest, and rally for better work conditions.  CITIZENS.  

I have worked with a lot of mexicans.  I work in restuarants.  lots of dishwashers and prep cooks, and such are always present. some legal, some not.  

I like most of the guys I have worked with.  but you are protesting work conditions someplace where legally you arent even supposed to be working.  now I undeerstand that they didnt hire themselves, but, if you arent even supposed to be in the country, and you arent supposed to be getting paid, cash usually.  Then how can you protest?

many of the legal immigants actually dont approve.  becuase the illegals bring down wages.  because they can be paid cash, for less than if they would be on a payroll.  

i think INS should use this to round up the ones they have been loking for.  BUT, the government still needs to do something about the border problem.  We want them to be legal.  They want to be legal.  So, put something in place that works better than the one thats there.

As for putting things to a halt.  Didnt notice.  I wont notice at work today either, as the ONE mexican who would have worked this morning, ASKED for the day off, and his shift was covered by my gf who also does prep,  usually not on mondays.  People are saying, some of them the mexicans that if they dont spend money, then the industries will be hurt.  I hate to tell them.  most of them dont really spend much more than just essentials anyways.  They save thier money.  Almost all the mexicans I work with, or have worked with.  Work 2-3 jobs.  save as much as they can for when they go home.  They take that money home.  And buy themselves a plot of land.  Come back to the US to work again.  When they go home again, they pay to have a house built on the land.  Come back to the US.  Make money.  Go home.  Pay mexicans to farm said land.  Hell.  We had a legal mexican who worked for us for a year.  He had TWO houses.  One in cancun, and on in mexico somewhere, both two sotry houses.  The guy was like 27.

Something needs to be done.  People who are not citizens of the US, protesting under the contitution which doesnt protect them, doesnt count.  Didn long ago the mexicans fight against american rule of mexico?
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2006, 04:47:06 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote
Y'know what? I'm sorry, you walk out of school / work? Fire 'em. Suspend 'em.


You think the penalty for missing one day of school should be to miss *more* days of school?

-Autistic Angel


If they don't want to be there?  Kick 'em out, let 'em live with shit jobs for the rest of their lives.
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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2006, 04:47:21 PM »

My stance is simple - you commit a crime to get into the country, you have no rights other than those granted to you by the Geneva convention.
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« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2006, 04:56:49 PM »

Quote from: "Zarkon"
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote
Y'know what? I'm sorry, you walk out of school / work? Fire 'em. Suspend 'em.


You think the penalty for missing one day of school should be to miss *more* days of school?

-Autistic Angel


If they don't want to be there?  Kick 'em out, let 'em live with bad jobs for the rest of their lives.


You're a real humanitarian.

Remember you had nothing to do with where you were born.  Imagine you're in mexico and your family can't make it on what you're paid so you risk your life and go to a country where you don't know the language so that you can earn a few bucks to support your wife and children.  

Not only have you overcome that, but now you have insensitive and spoiled American 'patriots' who have had everything in their lives handed to them (yet still bitch) saying you should get out of 'their' country cause you happened to have been born in the wrong place.

I don't know what the solution is, but brandishing the us vs them mentality is done in complete ignorance.

If I were in their situation, I would do the same daggon thing.
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« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2006, 05:01:46 PM »

Quote
Not only have you overcome that, but now you have insensitive and spoiled American 'patriots' who have had everything in their lives handed to them (yet still bitch)  


it's good to see that bigotry can come from anywhere.  it truly is universal, don't you think?
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« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2006, 05:03:05 PM »

Quote
If they don't want to be there? Kick 'em out, let 'em live with shit jobs for the rest of their lives.


I just want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly: are you advocating the repeal of *all* truancy laws, or just the ones for non-whites?

Also, what age groups does this bold new reversal of American education policy apply to?  Should we round up all the fourth-graders who'd rather be playing than be in school and "let'em live with shit jobs for the rest of their lives?"  Again: some of the kids marching peacefully and quietly outside my window look like they're about twelve years old.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2006, 05:12:04 PM »

Quote from: "ATB"
Quote from: "Zarkon"
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote
Y'know what? I'm sorry, you walk out of school / work? Fire 'em. Suspend 'em.


You think the penalty for missing one day of school should be to miss *more* days of school?

-Autistic Angel


If they don't want to be there?  Kick 'em out, let 'em live with bad jobs for the rest of their lives.


You're a real humanitarian.

Remember you had nothing to do with where you were born.  Imagine you're in mexico and your family can't make it on what you're paid so you risk your life and go to a country where you don't know the language so that you can earn a few bucks to support your wife and children.  

Not only have you overcome that, but now you have insensitive and spoiled American 'patriots' who have had everything in their lives handed to them (yet still bitch) saying you should get out of 'their' country cause you happened to have been born in the wrong place.

I don't know what the solution is, but brandishing the us vs them mentality is done in complete ignorance.

If I were in their situation, I would do the same daggon thing.

The issue is that they are coming here illegally.  They are committing a crime.  They don't have any rights of a US citizen.  There is a process to come here legally, and they should do that if they want to come here.  While I can sympathize with their plight, it doesn't mean that they have a right to be here or should be making demands when they are here as criminals.

Frankly, this protest was one of the worst things they could have done.

If they cause a lot of issues with the economy, they upset legal Americans for holding up the economy for the day.

If nothing happens, they show just how insignificant they are to the US economy and how we really don't need them, which shows how futile their cause is.
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2006, 05:13:00 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
I think that has been the typical response of schools for years. I missed 3 hours of class due to a busted lower radiator hose in my car - their solution was to make me miss the rest of the day. Makes sense don't it?


I don't doubt that happened, but different schools have different policies.  I've volunteered for a number of schools throughout Connecticut, and I can assure you that the typical response here for missing a day of school without a proper excuse would result in a lunchtime *and* after-school detention, meaning more time in school rather than less.

Of course, given the fact that these students are spending the day peacefully exercising their First Amendment Rights, a note from their parents will probably suffice as a proper excuse.

As far as your case with the busted radiator goes, I can see how a lab-based class might be unable to catch you up after missing three hours, and certain college professors have draconian rules regarding tardiness, but otherwise it seems silly to me that they wouldn't let you join the class in progess.  frown

Edited to add:

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon also"
My stance is simple - you commit a crime to get into the country, you have no rights other than those granted to you by the Geneva convention.


The United States has traditionally (though not recently) recognized a higher universal standard of human rights than even the Geneva Convention.  It's one of those liberal Democrat legacies from the 20th century that had this country held in such fantastic global esteem for so many decades.

So, while I wouldn't go quite as far as you do, I actually happen to agree on this point: it doesn't make any logical sense for someone to illegally sneak into the country and then complain that they're not properly recognized.  I don't like the idea of an amnesty because it dishonors all of the immigrants who carefully follow the laws; I don't like the idea of a guest worker program because it gives employers unmitigated power to silence employee complaints through the threat of deportation; I don't like the idea of mass deportations because it's entirely unfeasible.

In short, this is a very complicated issue without any one simple solution.  Thank God people are starting to talk about it.  Cool

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2006, 05:17:15 PM »

Quote from: "Graham"
The issue is that they are coming here illegally. They are committing a crime. They don't have any rights of a US citizen. There is a process to come here legally, and they should do that if they want to come here. While I can sympathize with their plight, it doesn't mean that they have a right to be here or should be making demands when they are here as criminals.


What is your basis to believe that anyone protesting today -- the middle school and high school students walking the streets outside my window, for example -- are illegal immigrants?  If you assume that anyone advocating increased recognition for illegal immigrants is an illegal themselves, you'd have to support the immediate arrest of George W. Bush.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2006, 05:19:24 PM »

I actaully mentioned something to the managers at work, who gave the two mexicans we have at work, the day off.  BUT.  They asked for the day off the correct way.  They didnt just NOT show up today.  What I said was, that if they werent legal, they have no right to be there.  Whereever they are in MI.

I understand the point of the rally today.  But I dont think its going to work.  The reason that the bills are being introduced to the government is becuase the majority of people in the US have a problem with the laws in place.

While we dont always get our way here in the US, when enough people speak out and complain, it at least gets looked into.  Gas Prices, Border Problems, things like that.

I really dont think that calling each other names is really they way to get a point across.  For the most part we are all adults here, and can have a intelligent, informed conversation.  Not only that, we should be able to understand that not everyone is going to think JUST like we do.

I now return this thread to its regularly scheduled bickering..smile
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2006, 05:22:47 PM »

I ate lunch at a Mexican restaurant today.  No hitches.
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2006, 05:24:14 PM »

Quote from: "Austin"
I ate lunch at a Mexican restaurant today.  No hitches.


if you're like me, wait a few more hours...there'll be a hitch.   :wink:
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« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2006, 05:25:32 PM »

Quote from: "hepcat"
Quote
Not only have you overcome that, but now you have insensitive and spoiled American 'patriots' who have had everything in their lives handed to them (yet still bitch)  


it's good to see that bigotry can come from anywhere.  it truly is universal, don't you think?


Indeed except that I am one of those spoiled American patriots.  I'm just on the other side of this argument.

Quote
They are committing a crime.


I'll bet the process for getting in is like all things beauracratic and in need of fine tuning to improve efficiency.  If you're kid is starving to death, are you going to wait a year for 12 levels of government workers to look at your paperwork only to have it voided because you forgot to put an x somewhere?
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« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2006, 05:38:14 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote from: "Graham"
The issue is that they are coming here illegally. They are committing a crime. They don't have any rights of a US citizen. There is a process to come here legally, and they should do that if they want to come here. While I can sympathize with their plight, it doesn't mean that they have a right to be here or should be making demands when they are here as criminals.


What is your basis to believe that anyone protesting today -- the middle school and high school students walking the streets outside my window, for example -- are illegal immigrants?  If you assume that anyone advocating increased recognition for illegal immigrants is an illegal themselves, you'd have to support the immediate arrest of George W. Bush.

-Autistic Angel
And I disagree with President Bush on this issue.  I never said that everyone there should be arrested.  However, I wouldn't be too surprised if the majority of people are illegal.  I also didn't say we should arrest anyone protesting, but I do think the illegals should be arrested.

I don't understand why someone who came here legally would advocate for illegal immigrants to suddenly become legal.  Why would you want to fight for someone trying to butt into line when you busted tail to try to get here.
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« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2006, 05:43:46 PM »

Quote from: "ATB"
Quote from: "hepcat"
Quote
Not only have you overcome that, but now you have insensitive and spoiled American 'patriots' who have had everything in their lives handed to them (yet still bitch)  


it's good to see that bigotry can come from anywhere.  it truly is universal, don't you think?


Indeed except that I am one of those spoiled American patriots.  I'm just on the other side of this argument.

Quote
They are committing a crime.


I'll bet the process for getting in is like all things beauracratic and in need of fine tuning to improve efficiency.  If you're kid is starving to death, are you going to wait a year for 12 levels of government workers to look at your paperwork only to have it voided because you forgot to put an x somewhere?


Bleh - my best friend is from South Africa.  He went through the process and said that the test to naturalize was the hardest part.  The paperwork isn't that hard if you haven't committed any crimes.  

I just cannot see the point in rewarding somebody who broke the law.  Oh, I stole this loaf of bread to feed my starving child might just get you some slack, but "I just HAD to come to the United States" really doesn't cut it for me.
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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2006, 05:49:39 PM »

Quote from: "Graham"
I don't understand why someone who came here legally would advocate for illegal immigrants to suddenly become legal. Why would you want to fight for someone trying to butt into line when you busted tail to try to get here.


I don't understand why someone would stay in an abusive relationship.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2006, 06:04:01 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote from: "Graham"
I don't understand why someone who came here legally would advocate for illegal immigrants to suddenly become legal. Why would you want to fight for someone trying to butt into line when you busted tail to try to get here.


I don't understand why someone would stay in an abusive relationship.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

-Autistic Angel
I never said it doesn't happen...I just said that I don't understand it.  It defies logic.  Going from that arguement to abusive relationships is pretty assinine.
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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2006, 06:23:01 PM »

Quote from: "I"
What is your basis to believe that anyone protesting today -- the middle school and high school students walking the streets outside my window, for example -- are illegal immigrants?


Quote from: "Graham"
I don't understand why someone who came here legally would advocate for illegal immigrants to suddenly become legal. Why would you want to fight for someone trying to butt into line when you busted tail to try to get here.


Quote from: "So I"
I don't understand why someone would stay in an abusive relationship. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


Quote from: "Then Graham"
I never said it doesn't happen...I just said that I don't understand it. It defies logic. Going from that arguement to abusive relationships is pretty assinine.


In your own words, you explained that you were assuming the protestors were illegal immigrants because you couldn't understand why legal immigrants would support them.  The fact that you don't understand why people make the choices they do is a poor rationale to assume they don't exist.

It's very clear to anyone who reads the above passages that I was not comparing illegal immigration to abusive relationships; I was comparing your lack of understanding for pro-immigration rallies to my lack of understanding for why people remain in abusive relationships.  Specifically: you assume everyone thinks exactly the same way that you do, while I do not.  I can understand why having that pointed out might make you angry, but there's nothing assinine about it.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2006, 06:28:40 PM »

As I said earlier, I don't know what the solution is. i don't think blanket immunity shoudl be given nor do I think all fo them should be deported.
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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2006, 06:52:31 PM »

The majority of these people come into this country, work their asses off in I-can't-believe-it's-not-slavery conditions, and at the end of the day believe they have better lives than they did in sunny Mexico.

Why the hell would you want to deport these people who are directly contributing to our economy?  Better to exile the white trash and blacks who leech our tax money via welfare they neither need nor deserve.
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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2006, 07:44:43 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
The majority of these people come into this country, work their asses off in I-can't-believe-it's-not-slavery conditions, and at the end of the day believe they have better lives than they did in sunny Mexico.

Why the hell would you want to deport these people who are directly contributing to our economy?  Better to exile the white trash and blacks who leech our tax money via welfare they neither need nor deserve.


However, it is quite possible that if they didn't come here and work their asses off, then the 2nd group of people you mention may end up having to work those jobs and get off of welfare. Also, not all people who use welfare are white trash and black and not all people who use welfare do not deserve it.

1) You feel that your country sucks and you want to come here. Go through the process. Just because it takes too long doesn't mean you should circumvent it.

2) You feel that your country sucks and you come here illegally. OK, you didn't get caught, you are still committing a crime.
A) You are committing a crime, how can you justify complaining? If I rob a house and then hurt myself carrying out your tv, should I be able to complain?
B) I thought you came here because it was better than your country? How can you complain?

3) This country has enough problems trying to support it's citizens. Yes I understand stand that if we go back far enough, most/all of us are immigrants and that many of us may even be 1st generation US citizens. I also understand the plight of people in other countries and why they would want to come here. However, it WILL get to the point where the country collapses economically if we keep allowing a large amount of people into the country. There is only so much space/land. There are only so many jobs. There HAS to be limits. Without limits there is anarchy.
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« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2006, 07:58:59 PM »

Quote
Why the hell would you want to deport these people who are directly contributing to our economy? Better to exile the white trash and blacks who leech our tax money via welfare they neither need nor deserve.

Because a lot of them aren't paying taxes, and living off the system.  They are potentially getting a free ride on the school system, and the medical system in general.  How much money is lost every year for illegals at hospitals when they need help?  In the end, I'd have to believe its a substantial net loss for the economy.

We pay higher taxes, and higher health insurance premiums because of this.  If people want to come here legally, fine.  But I work pretty hard everyday to support my family, pay for medical expenses, pay taxes, etc., and am not fond of supporting illegal citizens (or legal bums welfare).  I'd much rather save some on taxes and health care, so I can send my kids to college instead of them taking out loans in the future.

By all means, setup a better immigration policy, let more people come to the country, but make them live in the system and pay taxes as well.  

And my biggest gripe, learn English!!
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« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2006, 08:11:04 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote
Y'know what? I'm sorry, you walk out of school / work? Fire 'em. Suspend 'em.


You think the penalty for missing one day of school should be to miss *more* days of school?

-Autistic Angel


Uhh... if they are illegal they shouldn't be in our schools at all unless their parents have a permit to be here.
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dbt1949
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« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2006, 08:14:37 PM »

Where my wife gets her nails done there's a legal immigrant(a US citizen now).Been here thirty years.An ex US Marine who fought in Viet Nam.He married a Viet Namese woman four years ago but still can't get her a visa.
He's Viet Namese.
Why do Hispanics believe they should be given precidence over his plight?
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« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2006, 08:42:29 PM »

Quote from: "ATB"
Quote from: "Zarkon"
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote
Y'know what? I'm sorry, you walk out of school / work? Fire 'em. Suspend 'em.


You think the penalty for missing one day of school should be to miss *more* days of school?

-Autistic Angel


If they don't want to be there?  Kick 'em out, let 'em live with bad jobs for the rest of their lives.


You're a real humanitarian.

Remember you had nothing to do with where you were born.  Imagine you're in mexico and your family can't make it on what you're paid so you risk your life and go to a country where you don't know the language so that you can earn a few bucks to support your wife and children.  

Not only have you overcome that, but now you have insensitive and spoiled American 'patriots' who have had everything in their lives handed to them (yet still bitch) saying you should get out of 'their' country cause you happened to have been born in the wrong place.

I don't know what the solution is, but brandishing the us vs them mentality is done in complete ignorance.

If I were in their situation, I would do the same daggon thing.


Dude?  They're breaking the law to come here.  They're not here legally.  They want to come here?  Fine.  Do it the right way.  

When they come here and have their kids here, they're taking money from a lot of people.  They generally don't have medical insurance, so hospitals have to eat that.  They're not usually paying property taxes, so we (in general) are footing the bill for their children (which, technically, are legal, and it's not the kid's fault) to be educated as well as paying to teach them English.

Again.  I have absolutely no problem with legal immigration, nor with people from -any- country wanting to come to the United States.  It's when they do it illegally that I have an issue with it.

And I'm not about to say that Mexico's not bad.  Living in Texas, what I hear coming out of there scares the hell out of me at times.  But that doesn't change any of the facts, really.
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Zarkon
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2006, 08:44:48 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote
If they don't want to be there? Kick 'em out, let 'em live with shit jobs for the rest of their lives.


I just want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly: are you advocating the repeal of *all* truancy laws, or just the ones for non-whites?

Also, what age groups does this bold new reversal of American education policy apply to?  Should we round up all the fourth-graders who'd rather be playing than be in school and "let'em live with shit jobs for the rest of their lives?"  Again: some of the kids marching peacefully and quietly outside my window look like they're about twelve years old.

-Autistic Angel


Honestly?  Twelve years old is plenty old enough to learn that their actions have consequences, and they have to live with them.  Note.  I never said -expel- them.  I said suspend them, probably for a day.  Give them time to think about what is important to them.  Give their parents time to possibly wake up.  

Everyone has to deal with the consequences of their actions.  A massive walkout from schools and jobs -should- have massive consequences, on both sides of the fence.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2006, 08:44:56 PM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
Uhh... if they are illegal they shouldn't be in our schools at all unless their parents have a permit to be here.


Of course, you're aware that children born in the United States are automatically considered citizens of this country regardless of the immigration status of their parents.

That means you're assuming that the Hispanic students rallying here in Connecticut are all illegal immigrants themselves.  I'll ask you the same question I asked Graham: what is the basis for that belief?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2006, 08:51:42 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote from: "msduncan"
Uhh... if they are illegal they shouldn't be in our schools at all unless their parents have a permit to be here.


Of course, you're aware that children born in the United States are automatically considered citizens of this country regardless of the immigration status of their parents.

That means you're assuming that the Hispanic students rallying here in Connecticut are all illegal immigrants themselves.  I'll ask you the same question I asked Graham: what is the basis for that belief?

-Autistic Angel


And this point makes for great difficulty: send back the illegal parents and who will care for the citizen children?

That's why a gradual 'grandfathering' of citizenship needs to occur.  They still have to do the right thing- sign up blah blah and take the tests, but they aren't granted immediate citizenship or expelled.
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« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2006, 09:01:16 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Why the hell would you want to deport these people who are directly contributing to our economy?  Better to exile the white trash and blacks who leech our tax money via welfare they neither need nor deserve.


So, you qualify the leeches of society as either "white trash" or "blacks"?  :?
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Zarkon
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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2006, 09:01:35 PM »

Like I said, you cannot have immigration law reform without closed borders.  Period.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2006, 09:09:33 PM »

Quote from: "First I"
You think the penalty for missing one day of school should be to miss *more* days of school?


Quote from: "So Zarkon"
If they don't want to be there? Kick 'em out, let 'em live with shit jobs for the rest of their lives.


Quote from: "Then Zarkon"
Honestly? Twelve years old is plenty old enough to learn that their actions have consequences, and they have to live with them.


What "consequence" are they supposed to be learning?  That if they skip a day of school -- to spend the whole day exercising their First Amendment Rights in peaceful protest -- they'll be "punished" with a few days off from school?  Do you really think a twelve-year-old is going to spend that time stressing about his future job prospects?

Quote from: "Zarkon also"
Note. I never said -expel- them.  I said suspend them, probably for a day.


1 day suspension != "let 'em live with shit jobs the rest of their lives"

Quote from: "Zarkon then"
Give them time to think about what is important to them. Give their parents time to possibly wake up.


I saw those groups of kids walking the sidewalks outside my store between the time we opened until about 2:00 or 2:30pm.  I don't know the full route they were walking, but it was long enough that they were passing by about every thirty minutes.

These kids seem to have a very specific idea of what's important to them.

Quote from: "Finally, Zarkon"
Everyone has to deal with the consequences of their actions. A massive walkout from schools and jobs -should- have massive consequences, on both sides of the fence.


As I've said earlier in this thread, an appropriate consequence for skipping school is *more* school, not less.  Detention is far more appropriate than time off.

This assumes, of course, that you think the peaceful exercise of First Amendment Rights deserves punishment.  Personally, in my classroom, I'd want the kids to write a paper all about what they did, why they thought it was important, what they were hoping to accomplish compared to what they think they did accomplish, etc., etc., etc.  This entire experience seems like a textbook example of a "teachable moment."

Edited to add:

Quote from: "Zarkon"
Like I said, you cannot have immigration law reform without closed borders. Period.


Replace the word "closed" with "secured," and I'll agree 100% with this point.

-Autistic Angel
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Zarkon
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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2006, 09:48:57 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
What "consequence" are they supposed to be learning?  That if they skip a day of school -- to spend the whole day exercising their First Amendment Rights in peaceful protest -- they'll be "punished" with a few days off from school?  Do you really think a twelve-year-old is going to spend that time stressing about his future job prospects?


Well, if they've got parents worthy of the name, they get a hellacious spanking.  Then again, there are very few parents anymore.  Just barely-grown adults who managed to spawn.
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"

1 day suspension != "let 'em live with shit jobs the rest of their lives"


No, but it can easily lead that way.  

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"

I saw those groups of kids walking the sidewalks outside my store between the time we opened until about 2:00 or 2:30pm.  I don't know the full route they were walking, but it was long enough that they were passing by about every thirty minutes.

These kids seem to have a very specific idea of what's important to them.


And obviously it isn't their education or their future.  Also, as numerous reporters found out last month when they started all this crap, most of the kids that skipped school had no idea what was actually going on other than a vague sense of "Latino Pride", and when offered the chance to actually have an open forum to discuss and learn what was going on...barely 20 students showed out of an entire school district in Dallas.

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"

This assumes, of course, that you think the peaceful exercise of First Amendment Rights deserves punishment.  Personally, in my classroom, I'd want the kids to write a paper all about what they did, why they thought it was important, what they were hoping to accomplish compared to what they think they did accomplish, etc., etc., etc.  This entire experience seems like a textbook example of a "teachable moment."


The First Amendment:  
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Let's look at that shall we?  

There's nothing there that states "If you follow the First Amendment, you can't get in trouble."  It just states that the Government cannot make any laws to limit the freedom of speech or the press (now meant to mean expression in general at times) or the right of the people peaceably to assemble.  

Nope.  Nothing in there that says you can't get fired, or be punished in any means necessary.  Nothing that says you will suffer no consequences for your actions.  Nothing.  

Sure.  You can use your First Amendment rights all you want.  And you can still get nailed over it.  
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"


Edited to add:

Quote from: "Zarkon"
Like I said, you cannot have immigration law reform without closed borders. Period.


Replace the word "closed" with "secured," and I'll agree 100% with this point.

-Autistic Angel


You can't secure the border without closing it.  It's 3000+ miles.  It's simply not possible.  That's like trying to have a blockade of the Eastern Seaboard with a dozen ships.
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