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Author Topic: 9.0 on the Steinbrenner Scale  (Read 3660 times)
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El Guapo
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« on: October 21, 2004, 05:52:37 PM »

So....

what does Steinbrenner do now?  Fire Cashman?  Ship Kevin Brown off to Iraq?  Decimate the current Yankees roster, Roman style?  

Your thoughts?
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whiteboyskim
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2004, 05:53:45 PM »

He needs to bring Costanza in to shake things up in the home office. Get him Costanza! :lol:
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2004, 05:56:03 PM »

There isn't much he can do. There's nothing tradeable on that team. Brown @ 15M? Giambi w/ 75M left?

He'll focus his money and attention on something he doesn't need:Bats.

Look for Beltran and Sexon and no pitching help with a 200M+ payroll. biggrin
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Xmann
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2004, 06:04:00 PM »

yep this is a very ugly situation for the Yanks.  very few if any on that roster are tradable and free of their contracts.    Giambi could be done, Mussina and Brown are well over the hill, Rivera is very beatlable now.  i'm saying the Yanks won't even make the playoffs next year.
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Godzilla Blitz
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2004, 06:14:51 PM »

Does anyone know if Steinbrenner is even close to not being able to afford to sign more free agents? I would think if he could afford to sign another $40-50 million in free agents, that will be plan number one.

In addition to Beltran, I would bet he goes aggressively after some of the Red Sox free agents, probably Martinez and Varitek. Also, considering that the Red Sox will likely need starting pitching as well, I would think Steinbrenner would bid aggressively on any pitchers the Red Sox want, to in the least make sure that the Red Sox overpay for any free agents they get.

Guessing that the Yankees still have the financial means to outbid Boston, I think the Red Sox are in trouble this off-season because of key free agents they have (Varitek, Cabrerra, Lowe, and Martinez). Steinbrenner will make them pay.

This should be an interesting off-season.
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Devil
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2004, 06:33:54 PM »

Quote
Guessing that the Yankees still have the financial means to outbid Boston, I think the Red Sox are in trouble this off-season because of key free agents they have (Varitek, Cabrerra, Lowe, and Martinez). Steinbrenner will make them pay.


Are you kidding me? Didn't the A-Rod thing teach you anything? Contreras? Both guys the Yankees stole from the Sox with George's money.

I HOPE Lowe and Martinez are on the Yankees next year. You want a meltdown waiting to happen and a fragile 6 inning pitcher?

Cabrera and Varitek will probably be back and if they aren't, Theo will find suitable replacements for less money.
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2004, 06:37:56 PM »

Oh and this is the best thing I've read in a long time!!!!!!
From the NY Daily News:
How would free agent Nomar Garciaparra look at second base? Garciaparra is an apparent injury risk after several ailments bothered him all season, but if the Yankees signed him and he agreed to play second, the Yanks would have all of the "three shortstops" that were so celebrated a few years ago playing in their infield.

It just keeps getting better!!!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Xmann
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2004, 06:47:12 PM »

lol, this may turn into the biggest joke in sports history.
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2004, 07:21:57 PM »

Nomar's either going to Anaheim or back to Chicago.  Not a chance he'll be a Yankee next season.

Mike
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Devil
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2004, 07:30:39 PM »

Quote
Nomar's either going to Anaheim ...


No!! Please, God!! Don't do this to me!!  :x
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pr0ner
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2004, 07:35:50 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Quote
Nomar's either going to Anaheim ...


No!! Please, God!! Don't do this to me!!  :x


Bwahahahaha!   :twisted:

Yep, current rumor has it that, with Kennedy out at least half the season, the Angels are looking to sign Nomar, have him play short, and move Eckstein to 2nd.

Mike
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Sam is the Man
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2004, 07:48:49 PM »

Quote from: "Xmann"
lol, this may turn into the biggest joke in sports history.


I think the Yankees have steadily becoming a joke for a while now. It's been clear over the last few years that Steinbrenner was just going to continue to up payroll in a vicious cycle, to the point that that old Onion article called 'Yanks sign entire MLB roster' wouldn't seem that crazy.

As great as it is to see the Yanks lose in such embarrassing fashion, I've kind of felt like, at this point, it's a win-win situation for Yank-haters. If they win the WS, it's just more evidence of what a joke they are and how ridiculous their all-star team is. If the lose, it's not only satisfying in the short-term, but likely cause George to even further get out of control with his payroll. I've gotta say I've seen this coming for a long time...you bite the hand that feeds you (i.e. exploiting the system of baseball) too much and you end up in an impossible situation.

How cool would it be if the $500M Yankees went 162-0? Funny thing is, plenty of Yankee fans would not see the inherent ludicrosity in that, and would actually still take pleasure and pride in it. Not that that would happen, but the principle remains.
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El Guapo
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2004, 09:03:45 PM »

GEORGE ANGRY!!!


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« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2004, 09:11:42 PM »

the reason the yankees couldn't get randy johnson from the d-backs?

the LAST PLACE diamondbacks who are STARVING for young talent couldn't find ANYONE in the yankee farm system that they wanted.

that says enough about the state of the union in yankeeville.
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2004, 09:19:22 PM »

Quote from: "jessie"
the reason the yankees couldn't get randy johnson from the d-backs?

the LAST PLACE diamondbacks who are STARVING for young talent couldn't find ANYONE in the yankee farm system that they wanted.

that says enough about the state of the union in yankeeville.


The rest of the teams in MLB is the Yankees farm system.

The Yankees minor league system is a joke.
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Godzilla Blitz
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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2004, 10:25:31 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Quote
Guessing that the Yankees still have the financial means to outbid Boston, I think the Red Sox are in trouble this off-season because of key free agents they have (Varitek, Cabrerra, Lowe, and Martinez). Steinbrenner will make them pay.


Are you kidding me? Didn't the A-Rod thing teach you anything? Contreras? Both guys the Yankees stole from the Sox with George's money.

I HOPE Lowe and Martinez are on the Yankees next year. You want a meltdown waiting to happen and a fragile 6 inning pitcher?

Cabrera and Varitek will probably be back and if they aren't, Theo will find suitable replacements for less money.


Except for Varitek, I'm not so concerned with the Yankees signing ex-Red Sox players as I am in them driving up the price of the ones the Red Sox sign to the point that it straps the Red Sox ability to fill out their roster. Both teams will be looking hard for starting pitching.

As for the Sox free agents...

I hope the Red Sox don't sign Martinez. The only way they would get him would be to pay far beyond his value. Of course, he may do a Clemens and rebound into a Cy Young Award winner, but I don't think so. If he goes to the Yankees, so be it. I don't think he is irreplaceable.

Lowe depends on price. I would think there is better value to be had elsewhere, and I doubt the Yankees would be that interested in him.

I hope the Sox sign Cabrera. Don't know what kind of a price he will command, though, and don't know what else will be out there.

Varitek is the one I'd be most concerned about. I think he would be difficult/impossible to replace, and I bet Steinbrenner will pull out all the stops to get him. Is Varitek happy in Boston? Has anyone heard that he wants to resign? As much as I imagine Varitek likes being in Boston, Boras(s) is his agent, which throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing.
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jonsauce
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2004, 03:28:43 AM »

Yankees need to raise the payroll imo.

Whatever it is now just isn't cutting it!
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2004, 03:47:59 AM »

Well first of all Varitek is not irreplaceable. Doug Mirabelli, who is not as good as Varitek IMO, is certainly good enough to be a starting catcher if Varitek wants some obscene amount of money.

Second, why would the Yankees want Varitek? They got Posada through 2007 and he has a no trade clause (last I recalled). Varitek won't sign with a team unless he gets most of the starts.

Third, Varitek is considered to be the "captain" or leader of the Red Sox. Who knows if that plays a factor, but I don't see him having any sort of Nomar-like loathing.

He'll probably command a high price with asshat Boras as his agent, but the Sox could definitely sign him and Cabrera if they let Pedro and Lowe go (over $21 mil in contracts right there).
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Godzilla Blitz
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2004, 06:50:33 AM »

Quote from: "Koz"
Well first of all Varitek is not irreplaceable. Doug Mirabelli, who is not as good as Varitek IMO, is certainly good enough to be a starting catcher if Varitek wants some obscene amount of money.


I think it would be next to impossible for the Red Sox to get a catcher of Varitek's caliber, in the short run. Mirabelli, although good, would be a significant step down. Also, from your third point, it would be very tough for the Red Sox to replace Varitek's leadership.

Quote from: "Koz"
Second, why would the Yankees want Varitek? They got Posada through 2007 and he has a no trade clause (last I recalled). Varitek won't sign with a team unless he gets most of the starts.


Steinbrenner would want Varitek because the Red Sox want him, because he is the the supposed leader of the Red Sox, and because he would be a jump in quality over Posada. I wasn't aware that Posada has a no trade clause in his contract, which would change things if true. I would think the Yankees would love to deal Posada and sign Varitek.

Quote from: "Koz"
Third, Varitek is considered to be the "captain" or leader of the Red Sox. Who knows if that plays a factor, but I don't see him having any sort of Nomar-like loathing.

He'll probably command a high price with asshat Boras as his agent, but the Sox could definitely sign him and Cabrera if they let Pedro and Lowe go (over $21 mil in contracts right there).


I think we're both keying in on the same thing, which is how badly Varitek wants to stay in Boston. I have no idea what his feelings are toward the organization. I would hope he likes it in Boston. If I were the Yankees though, I would do my best to get him, or at least drive the price up in a bidding war to make the Sox pay much more for him than they would like. With Boras involved, who knows to what degree any loyalty Varitek feels toward the Red Sox will get watered down.

I'm not trying to paint a negative picture of the off season, and am looking forward to enjoying the World Series before thinking on how all this will play out. Also, I have a lot of confidence in the current Red Sox management to make good moves. Nevertheless, I think Steinbrenner and his deep pockets will make for a very interesting Red Sox/Yankees off season. I look forward to seeing what happens.
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Devil
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2004, 01:55:39 PM »

Quote
Steinbrenner would want Varitek because the Red Sox want him, because he is the the supposed leader of the Red Sox, and because he would be a jump in quality over Posada. I wasn't aware that Posada has a no trade clause in his contract, which would change things if true. I would think the Yankees would love to deal Posada and sign Varitek.


I'm not so sure if Varitek is better than Posada. Like I said to Koz in another thread. Whenever the Sox pitch well, Varitek gets credit for calling a great game. When they lose 19-8 in game 3 I don't hear about Varitek calling a bad game. As far as the 'leadership' thing goes. Who really knows.

Let some other team pay him 13M for 5 years.
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Koz
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2004, 02:07:27 PM »

The other thing to consider is if the Yankees can afford it. I know they have limitless pockets, but they're already committed to that $180 mil payroll next year. They'll obviously go after Beltran, and they still need to find a couple more starters, a couple more relievers, and maybe a first baseman under the age of 35 (and no, Tony Clark doesn't count).

Posada is overpaid as it is right now (I think he gets something in the $10-11 mil range), so unless a team is desparate for a catcher, I'm not sure they would want to pay that much. I'm not positive about the no-trade thing, I just read it on a website that looks a couple years old.

And Devil, the reason Varitek isn't blamed for a 19-8 shallacking is because ultimately it's the pitcher's responsibility. The pitcher is the one pitching, and he is the one that decides what he wants to pitch. Just because the catcher says fastball inside doesn't mean the pitcher can't shake it off. I wouldn't give Varitek (or any catcher) any more credit for winning a game than for losing one.

The Sox will have some money to play around with in the offseason, so I think any number of things could happen, but I think ultimately they will resign Varitek over any of the other FAs.
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Devil
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2004, 02:20:11 PM »

Quote
I wouldn't give Varitek (or any catcher) any more credit for winning a game than for losing one.


That's all I was saying. It's really up to the pitchers. Everyone seems to be in love with Tek right now just like they were with Trot a few years ago.

Anyone can be replaced -
Haven't the Patriots taught you guys anything? :wink:
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Godzilla Blitz
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2004, 02:49:10 PM »

Good points.

I wouldn't say that I'm enamored with Varitek as being an inrreplaceable piece of the Red Sox picture. There are a half dozen to a dozen other catchers that would do fine in his stead. It's just that there appear to be none of them available in this coming free agency round.

I'm starting to rethink things a bit, though. I was going to write about how Varitek sets himself apart from Posada with his offensive numbers, but then I looked them up. Varitek's OPS is .872; Posada's is .881. Everything else is pretty much a wash. For some reason, I had it in my head that Varitek was a much better hitter than Posada, but the numbers don't prove that. I obviously have no idea what I was talking about.

Defensively, Varitek threw out 23% of runners compared to Posada's 27%. Varitek had 2 errors to Posada's 9. Varitek had 5 passed balls to Posada's 9. Not a big difference when you add everything up.

Not sure what my new point would be, other than to say that it doesn't make much sense from a numbers stand point that the Yankees would go after Varitek. Maybe they would do it to spite the Red Sox, or perhaps Steinbrenner would want Varitek for his leadership qualities, whatever they might be. But perhaps the Red Sox won't have to compete with the Yankees for Varitek, which would make things easier.

I wonder what other teams are considering going after him.
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Devil
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2004, 03:03:16 PM »

Teams with a decent, or young,  staff and money will go after Tek.

I'd say the Dodgers would be a good fit.
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2004, 03:48:03 PM »

Hmmm...and what team has the second highest payroll?  So the Yankees are evil for spending but the Red Sox aren't?  Is it strange that the teams with the 2 highest payrolls were playing to go to the series.  Great hypocrisy decrying the Yankees spending and not the Sox.
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2004, 03:55:41 PM »

Edit:  I actually had a point to this.

I'm an Oriole's fan, so I detest both teams pretty much.  I didn't really want either team to win, but my god, losing a 3-0 lead is awful.

One of my friends is a Yankees fan.  Before game 7, she said, "I gotta watch the game and watch an entire region get their hopes crushed tonight."  Too bad she thought the result was the other way around.

No sympathy for the Yankees.  Store bought team.  They are what the Redskins would look like if there was no salary cap (hello Danny Snyderbucks!).  Too bad for me as a Skins fan, there IS a salcap smile

Quote from: "Godzilla Blitz"
I had it in my head that Varitek was a much better hitter than Posada, but the numbers don't prove that. I obviously have no idea what I was talking about.


Yeah I was kinda shocked when you said that.  I'm not a huge baseball geek, so I looked up the numbers.  They're fairly similar offensive wise, but Posada has produced more RBIs and hits with more power.  Posada has 5 seasons 20+ homers, Varitek has 2, for example.
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Sam is the Man
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2004, 05:20:05 PM »

Quote from: "Jaddison"
Hmmm...and what team has the second highest payroll?  So the Yankees are evil for spending but the Red Sox aren't?  Is it strange that the teams with the 2 highest payrolls were playing to go to the series.  Great hypocrisy decrying the Yankees spending and not the Sox.


Sorry, it's not hypocrisy. Your point is tired and flawed.

1) Yes, the Sox are second highest in payroll, but Yanks are still $60M more. Granted, this isn't a very strong argument, since it begs the question, "What payroll is too high and what isn't?". But $60M is a huge difference, and attempts at equating the Yanks and the Sox as payroll mogers don't pan out.

2) More importantly, the fact that it is the Yankees who have practically unlimited pockets means that they, by definition, drive the market, both financially and competitively. Financially as illustrated by Godzilla's point that Yankees are able to drive Tek's price up simply to hurt the Sox financially. Do you think the Sox could do the same? No, just like I can't bluff the house in blackjack. And competitively since the Yankees' deep pockets force the Sox to increase spending to keep up with the Yankees on the field. I don't think you can claim that it is the other way around when it is the Yankees with the market advantage.

The funny thing is, I'd bet my house on the fact that these same Yankee fans who resort to the 'Sox can't complain about Yankee payroll because they are 2nd in payroll' would be the first to accuse Sox management of being 'cheapskates who don't want to spend what's necessary to put out a winning team' if they didn't try and keep up with the Yanks. You can't have it both ways.
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Devil
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2004, 05:36:03 PM »

Quote
The funny thing is, I'd bet my house on the fact that these same Yankee fans who resort to the 'Sox can't complain about Yankee payroll because they are 2nd in payroll' would be the first to accuse Sox management of being 'cheapskates who don't want to spend what's necessary to put out a winning team' if they didn't try and keep up with the Yanks.


Bingo!!!!

A-Rod deal!
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2004, 06:10:28 PM »

Not that this is worth that much -- I seem to recall hearing that Georgie could spend another $75 million before being at the break even point, with all that he gets from television revenues?

I forget the exact figure, and it was on Boston sports radio, so this may be way wrong.  

In any case, I hope the Yankees keeps spending, and it keeps failing for him.
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2004, 06:21:45 PM »

A. You automatically assume I am a Yankees fan for not supporting an anti-Yankees viewpoint, that's pretty flawed logic right there.  These anti-Yankee arguments are old and outrageous too

B. The Sox wanted ARod right?  Were going to pick up that contract with some restructuring.  Florida bought a series, the forst one, you could argue Arizona did too...and so the Yankees alone are the root of all evil that is baseball.

C. Wouldn't the Angels and other medium to small market successful teams be evidence that the Yankees are not ruining baseball?  Unless you are so virulently anti-Yankees that facts don't matter.
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2004, 06:33:18 PM »

I've got no problem with George spending every last dime he has on payroll. In fact, I applaud it.

The rules of the game are set up in a way that allows for this.

At least the guy is throwing the money into payroll and not keeping it all for himself.

The Yankees CAN outspend everyone but can they outplay everyone?

The money helps, but you need to get it done on the field.
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2004, 06:42:09 PM »

Quote from: "Jaddison"
A. You automatically assume I am a Yankees fan for not supporting an anti-Yankees viewpoint, that's pretty flawed logic right there.  These anti-Yankee arguments are old and outrageous too.


I actually didn't assume you are a Yankees fan, although I can see why my use of the term 'these Yankee fans' would make it seem that way. Oh well, my bad usage of the language. But even if I did make that assumption, whether that assumption is wrong or right would really not be relevant to my logic in discussing Yankee ecomomics.

Quote from: "Jaddison"
B. The Sox wanted ARod right?  Were going to pick up that contract with some restructuring.


And guess what? They didn't get him. Because, despite your claim that the Sox are just as guilty of overspending as the Yankees, the Sox decided that he wasn't worth what they'd have to pay. This concept of worth is either not part of Yankee economics, or is vastly shifted to a much higher price point. Again, this illustrates that while the Sox have to be careful of their own financial limitations, the Yanks don't, relatively speaking.

Quote from: "Jaddison"
Florida bought a series, the forst one, you could argue Arizona did too...and so the Yankees alone are the root of all evil that is baseball.


What happened to those store-bought FL and AZ teams after they won the WS? Compare that to what happens to the Yanks teams each year. Obviously, to win a WS, teams like FL and AZ have to mortgage their futures for one chance to keep up with the big spenders. Meanwhile, the Yanks keep adding payroll (and the Sox try to keep up).

Quote from: "Jaddison"
C. Wouldn't the Angels and other medium to small market successful teams be evidence that the Yankees are not ruining baseball?  Unless you are so virulently anti-Yankees that facts don't matter.


I never said that the Yankees are ruining baseball, but I won't attempt to argue that the fact that you assume that I feel that way is an indictment of your logic in arguing this economics issue, as you did with my supposed assumption that you are a Yankee fan.

Anyway...yes, the success of these teams and the high rating of the ALCS indicate that baseball is healthy and that Yankee hatred drives good ratings. I don't understand how anyone could be a Yankee fan (and I'm not saying you are), but that's beside the point.

Look, I didn't start this debate with 'The Yankees are ruining baseball!'. I think they've dug themselves into a hole, sure, and I think they are a shell of the team they used to be. But it was you who started the 'Red Sox spend a lot too!' argument, so don't try and change the subject by arguing about the health of the league.
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2004, 07:01:18 PM »

Change the subject?  Give me a break.  It is amazing to me what talking about the Yankees does to people.  What could possibly be the point of justifying Red Sox spending by saying well the Yankees spend more.  You say they aren't ruining baseball, I agree, then what is the point of lambasting them for their spending exactly?
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2004, 07:41:46 PM »

I think the point isn't that the Yankees are ruining baseball, but that the Yankees are ruining the Yankees, and it's fun to watch.

You implied that the Sox are guilty of the same type of spending mentality, and therefore just as deserving of this scorn, and I argued otherwise.
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2004, 09:05:56 PM »

Perhaps this is where I don't see the logic if your stated glee is the Yankees ruining the Yankees.  They were 1 inning from the series, last year they were in the series.  Only you fixate on Steinbreners statement that winning the World Series is the only acceptable thing...which as an owner of a baseball team why wouldn't that be your definition, except for owners who say profit is the only goal.

The Yankees are not ruined or going to ruin, they are a good team who plays mostly fundamentally sound baseball, they rarely shoot their mouths off unlike so many other teams/players(Red Sox large among that group).  if a player really crosses the line he is gone quick.  Torre is just a class act all around.  I would say no matter what the Red Sox do this one year they are much more a circus than the Yankees are.

Maybe they will go through a correctional period like they did in the 80s, maybe but as long as Torre is manager I'll bet they remain a class act.
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Koz
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2004, 10:00:09 PM »

Quote from: "Jaddison"
Perhaps this is where I don't see the logic if your stated glee is the Yankees ruining the Yankees.  They were 1 inning from the series, last year they were in the series.  Only you fixate on Steinbreners statement that winning the World Series is the only acceptable thing...which as an owner of a baseball team why wouldn't that be your definition, except for owners who say profit is the only goal.

The Yankees are not ruined or going to ruin, they are a good team who plays mostly fundamentally sound baseball, they rarely shoot their mouths off unlike so many other teams/players(Red Sox large among that group).  if a player really crosses the line he is gone quick.  Torre is just a class act all around.  I would say no matter what the Red Sox do this one year they are much more a circus than the Yankees are.

Maybe they will go through a correctional period like they did in the 80s, maybe but as long as Torre is manager I'll bet they remain a class act.


And you wonder why people accuse you of being a Yankees fan...  :roll:

Either that, or you just hate the Red Sox for some reason. I have to ask, is it the hair?

And also, Sheffield has one of the largest mouths around. He spouts complete nonsense half the time, threatening people (like Pedro) because he thinks he's the shit. And don't forget your resident cheater A-Rod.
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Jaddison
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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2004, 10:13:22 PM »

in today's baseball world trying to be unbiased I guess makes one a Yankees fan.  They are a successful franchise both in business and on the playing field I would think almost any objective analysis would conclude that.  Losing to Boston does not diminsh what they have accomplished as a franchise over the last 8 or 9 years.  Then again i don't think the 86 Sox were failures, as i remember how amazing their comeback against the Angels was to even be in the Series.

Sheffield was remarkably quiet this year, Rodrieguez a cheater?  He was called out.  The Red Sox have their fair share of characters.....i think Pedro's plunkings are gutless and often childish, Manny and his behavior last year.  I would think an honest unbiased review of much of what was said this year would show the Red Sox talking about the Yankees far more than the other way around.
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El Guapo
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« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2004, 12:10:21 AM »

Quote from: "Jaddison"
Rodrieguez a cheater?  He was called out. .


Quick note: so if you're caught you're not a cheater?
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Jaddison
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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2004, 01:10:58 AM »

Well like it or not there is a line of thought in both sports and other professions "if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'".

However it would seem that some higher standard is applied to Yankees, is a guy who runs out of the base paths a cheater or someone who breaks a rule...is breaking a rule cheating?  If so then everyone who fouls in the NBA is a cheater, every penalty in the NFL is done by a cheater.  Every batter who puts his rear foot out of the batters box is a cheater...damn there would seem to be a lot of cheaters in sports.

In baseball, while it might be subjective, I always thought cheating was something like spitballs or corked bats.  ow many times have you seen fielders just sort of get in the way of a runner sort of daring the ump to call something or batters not making any attempt to get out of the way of a pitch.
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