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Question: Which performance did you prefer?
1989 Joker - 5 (6.8%)
2008 Joker - 64 (86.5%)
I like em both equally - 5 (6.8%)
Total Voters: 74

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Author Topic: 1989 Joker or 2008 Joker?  (Read 4129 times)
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hepcat
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« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2008, 12:08:33 AM »

Quote from: PeteRock on August 27, 2008, 09:55:26 PM

I think most here are competent enough to develop unbiased opinions about a film's quality without buying into an alleged mass hysteria. 

not me.  i actually do form my opinions based solely on what others tell me.  speaking of which, i'm gonna need your opinion on Babylon AD after it opens.  i really need to know what i think of it.
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« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2008, 12:11:24 AM »

Jack's Joker: A great performance, he stole the film.  While that Batman looks "campy" now, at the time it was considered pretty dark.  A-

Heath's Joker: An incredible performance, he stole the film season.  A++++
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« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2008, 12:13:36 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 28, 2008, 12:08:33 AM

Quote from: PeteRock on August 27, 2008, 09:55:26 PM

I think most here are competent enough to develop unbiased opinions about a film's quality without buying into an alleged mass hysteria. 

not me.  i actually do form my opinions based solely on what others tell me.  speaking of which, i'm gonna need your opinion on Babylon AD after it opens.  i really need to know what i think of it.

So far it looks to be a critical flop, but perhaps critics don't fully grasp the film's artistic merit and piognant message about inevitable futuristic dystopian chaos.  While the film may continue the less than desirable trend of including moral concepts conceived by a 10-year old and preachy raised finger speeches about humanity's inevitable doom and self-inflicted destruction, sometimes a film is just so rife with cinematographic maturity that the sum of its parts transcends pointless criticism from jaded critics unable to appreciate pure artistic merit in its most unrefined form.
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« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2008, 12:32:51 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2008, 09:45:07 PM

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 27, 2008, 09:32:50 PM



"It's not who you are inside, it's what you DO that defines you!"


a parrot can quote a man, doesn't mean he understands what he's quoting though.

seriously, do you ever post anything that doesn't come across as being written by the comic book shop owner from the simpsons?    icon_lol

it's DArtagnan, he doesn't like anything.  He's probably French.
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« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2008, 02:01:32 AM »

Quote from: GuidoTKP on August 27, 2008, 11:05:11 PM

Nicholson's Joker was just a green light for Nicholson to be more Nicholson than he'd ever been before.  It was like he was told to take his Witches of Eastwick performance and multiply by a 100.  I like Nicholson, so watching him off the leash in Batman was fun, but I'm not sure how much it really qualifies as acting.

The same could be said for most of Robin Williams' roles, but both are still fun to watch.  You know what you are going to get from them.  It makes it a relatively easy call.  Either you like what they do or you don't.

Speaking of, I am really looking forward to Nicholson Jr's series this fall (Christian Slater)
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« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2008, 02:05:17 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on August 27, 2008, 09:57:14 PM

Quote from: warning on August 27, 2008, 11:29:32 AM


As far as the Joker needing a backstory - nah.  I like my villains to be villains, not tortured souls with troubled backgrounds.  That just seems trite.

Yeah, but there has to be a reason for someone to just become all twisted like that.  This is where the back story comes in.  Finding out what makes somebody become a psychopath makes a villain so much more interesting.

I dunno.  Did you like The Grinch more or less after you found out about his troubled childhood in the Jim Carrey movie?
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« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2008, 02:54:58 AM »

Quote from: PeteRock on August 28, 2008, 12:13:36 AM

  While the film may continue the less than desirable trend of including moral concepts conceived by a 10-year old and preachy raised finger speeches about humanity's inevitable doom and self-inflicted destruction, sometimes a film is just so rife with cinematographic maturity that the sum of its parts transcends pointless criticism from jaded critics unable to appreciate pure artistic merit in its most unrefined form.

SO your saying it's got naked boobs...right?
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« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2008, 10:20:50 AM »

I don't like anything?

But it's not true!

I like Hellgate, Too Human, and even Space Siege (though not much).

 icon_razz

Are you claiming that's a pattern?

But I can't see it!

 ninja2

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed Dark Knight. So did I, really, and I believe it's a fine film in terms of entertainment. Does it belong where the hype originally placed it (No. 1 on IMDB)? No, and you all know it. I haven't checked the score, but I'm pretty sure it'll end up below top 10 - which is somewhat more realistic.
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« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2008, 12:32:15 PM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 28, 2008, 10:20:50 AM

I don't like anything?

But it's not true!

I like Hellgate, Too Human, and even Space Siege (though not much).


No you don't, and you know it.  You're just saying that because those games were not well reviewed/liked.  Don't be such a predictable drone.  Pete's right:  you're just contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Quote
Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed Dark Knight. So did I, really, and I believe it's a fine film in terms of entertainment. Does it belong where the hype originally placed it (No. 1 on IMDB)? No, and you all know it. I haven't checked the score, but I'm pretty sure it'll end up below top 10 - which is somewhat more realistic.

your original statements implied that anyone who thought the story in The Dark Knight had any depth was a 10 year old child.  Now you're simply saying it's not the best movie ever made.   Problem is, no one took issue with the idea that it wasn't the greatest film ever made.  You're just hoping to get SOMEONE to agree with you, it appears. 

Try this statement next:  "It's got people in it!  And there's talking!".  You may get someone on board after that.   icon_lol
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« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2008, 12:55:54 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on August 27, 2008, 09:57:14 PM

Yeah, but there has to be a reason for someone to just become all twisted like that.  This is where the back story comes in.  Finding out what makes somebody become a psychopath makes a villain so much more interesting.

Sometimes, sure.  In the case of TDK I think it was absolutely the right move.  I don't want to empathize with the Joker in this movie.  He's much  more effective as a force of nature that arrives on the scene bereft of back story. 
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« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2008, 01:03:29 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 28, 2008, 12:32:15 PM

your original statements implied that anyone who thought the story in The Dark Knight had any depth was a 10 year old child.  Now you're simply saying it's not the best movie ever made.   Problem is, no one took issue with the idea that it wasn't the greatest film ever made.  You're just hoping to get SOMEONE to agree with you, it appears. 

Try this statement next:  "It's got people in it!  And there's talking!".  You may get someone on board after that.   icon_lol

I didn't imply that you were 10 years old hippy. I'm not ruling it out, either. You do have that school-boy cleverness about your posting style.

If you thought the Dark Knight was a deep and profound film then you should be glad, as you must have felt like the ticket price was worth it. If you're starting to suspect that maybe you're wrong, and it really IS just fluff in an entertaining package - then don't hate the messenger. I get taken in by the hype once in a while too, and sometimes it takes a while before I realise how easy it is to jump on the bandwagon.

Admit that it's fluff and you'll feel better before you know it slywink

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« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2008, 01:55:25 PM »

I understand that being contrary is what makes you feel special.  Makes you feel like you're somebody.  It's oftentimes a symptom in cases of almost debilitating low self esteem.  I realize that you're driven not by actual logic or true bouts of insight, but by a pathology that dictates that in order for you to justify your existence you must belittle all others whenever the opportunity arises. 

I actually am not angry or upset with you.  In fact, I pity you.  It must be very difficult for you and I can only imagine the anguish you feel when you're unable to convince others of your superiority. 

I hope you someday get the help you need, truly I do.   icon_cry
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« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2008, 01:55:47 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 28, 2008, 12:32:15 PM

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 28, 2008, 10:20:50 AM

I don't like anything?

But it's not true!

I like Hellgate, Too Human, and even Space Siege (though not much).


No you don't, and you know it.  You're just saying that because those games were not well reviewed/liked.  Don't be such a predictable drone.  Pete's right:  you're just contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Quote
Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed Dark Knight. So did I, really, and I believe it's a fine film in terms of entertainment. Does it belong where the hype originally placed it (No. 1 on IMDB)? No, and you all know it. I haven't checked the score, but I'm pretty sure it'll end up below top 10 - which is somewhat more realistic.

your original statements implied that anyone who thought the story in The Dark Knight had any depth was a 10 year old child.  Now you're simply saying it's not the best movie ever made.   Problem is, no one took issue with the idea that it wasn't the greatest film ever made.  You're just hoping to get SOMEONE to agree with you, it appears. 

Try this statement next:  "It's got people in it!  And there's talking!".  You may get someone on board after that.   icon_lol

Some people simply can't be happy if they find themselves liking what 'everyone' likes and they subconsciously 'make' themselves like stuff that few people like so they feel different.  I had a friend who used to be like this until we spent a couple weeks pointing out all the little bits of proof.  He had a huge 'omfg' moment and realized that he didn't really like some of the things he thought he did. The mind is a powerful thing and sometimes people are so against comforming that they can't even enjoy things that are popular.
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« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2008, 02:14:53 PM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 27, 2008, 06:07:07 PM

It's still comic book fluff, and being pretentious and preachy about it almost makes me queasy.

Who's being pretentious and preachy?

Quote
I'm no big fan of Burton's work either, but at least he didn't saturate his Batman films with a 10-year old's moral concepts and preachy raised finger speeches about humanity. Give me a break.

Actually, the film is saturated with college freshmen and sophomore moral concepts and speeches about humanity.  Maybe you're just way advanced with your sense of morality.  The character in question, the Joker, whom you wanted to relate to and have a back story for is intentionally left with a story we don't know.  He's a mystery.  10 year olds don't explore the idea that we don't really know each other.  That's reserved for people getting out highschool and discovering existentialism.  10 year olds don't come to the conclusion that some people just can't be explained and proceed to build their relationship to them based the premise that they can't be predicted.  That comes later in life, it at all.

The morality of the movie is not God.  It's not going to change the way we see the world.  It's a vehicle for the movie.  It's popcorn.  And it's acting.  And it's vision.  And it's fantasy.  And it's comic book.  It doesn't even have to be deep to generate discussion.  Sometimes watching the tadpoles scamper in the shallows of a pond can be as fun as deep sea exploration.  For me anyway.  The truth of the matter is that I sat there for three hours plus and didn't get uncomfortable in my chair and didn't find myself wanting to watch the time to get to thinking about the next thing in my day.  That's my real gauge for a good movie.  Even a good Disney movie.  *Pick the paper up.  Put in the bag.  bump bump.*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZjoxSDEvbo

There's some 10 year old morality I can get behing and love.

Bump bump.
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« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2008, 02:34:34 PM »

Oh my, such emotion slywink

Anyway, interesting reactions all around. Pretty extreme since we're talking about a film that I didn't enjoy as much as you, and felt the need to point out what I found to be crappy about it. I wonder if you get the same urges when you read reviews around the net, and if you notice just how "condescending" people can get when they don't enjoy something. I guess pointing out flaws without smoothing things over is pretentious and preachy to you, hmm? Hehe, whatever.

Anyway, I can see this is a touchy subject.

I'll leave you to it.

Oh, and I especially enjoyed hippy's little comment about pity and wanting me to get help? What a joke. Have you read some of the "didn't like it" comments on IMDB? I guess A LOOOOT of people need psychological help.

Just FYI - it's as irrelevant to me how you feel as ever hepcat. You demonstrated long ago that you didn't have the kind of online personality that I would ever invest anything emotional in. That said, you're probably a nice dude in real life. But you really do come off as a schoolboy drone to me.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 02:38:54 PM by DArtagnan » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2008, 02:41:29 PM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 28, 2008, 02:34:34 PM

Oh my, such emotion slywink

Anyway, interesting reactions all around. Pretty extreme since we're talking about a film that I didn't enjoy as much as you, and felt the need to point out what I found to be crappy about it. I wonder if you get the same urges when you read reviews around the net, and if you notice just how "condescending" people can get when they don't enjoy something. I guess pointing out flaws without smoothing things over is pretentious and preachy to you, hmm? Hehe, whatever.

Anyway, I can see this is a touchy subject.

I'll leave you to it.

Oh, and I especially enjoyed hippy's little comment about pity and wanting me to get help? What a joke. Have you read some of the "didn't like it" comments on IMDB? I guess A LOOOOT of people need psychological help.

Just FYI - it's as irrelevant to me how you feel as ever hepcat. You demonstrated long ago that you didn't have the kind of online personality that I would ever invest anything emotional in. That said, you're probably a nice dude in real life. But you really do come off as a schoolboy drone to me.

Funny how you basically insult anyone who liked the movie with your first post and then try to act like you're taking the high road when they react negatively to you and give you the courtesy of a non-condescending reply, unlike what you gave to anyone else.
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« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2008, 02:42:57 PM »

Quote from: warning on August 28, 2008, 02:05:17 AM

Quote from: The Grue on August 27, 2008, 09:57:14 PM

Quote from: warning on August 27, 2008, 11:29:32 AM


As far as the Joker needing a backstory - nah.  I like my villains to be villains, not tortured souls with troubled backgrounds.  That just seems trite.

Yeah, but there has to be a reason for someone to just become all twisted like that.  This is where the back story comes in.  Finding out what makes somebody become a psychopath makes a villain so much more interesting.

I dunno.  Did you like The Grinch more or less after you found out about his troubled childhood in the Jim Carrey movie?

The Grinch isn't an interesting villain and also isn't human.  However, I would be interested to know why the Grinch became so grinchy.
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« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2008, 02:43:34 PM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 28, 2008, 02:34:34 PM

I wonder if you get the same urges when you read reviews around the net, and if you notice just how "condescending" people can get when they don't enjoy something.

Most folks around here don't (consistently) tell folks that they're morons if they don't agree with their view.  You really should seek out professional help.  I was sincere in my appraisal of your issues and I think you need to look into yourself to see if perhaps there's something that can be done.  You've been the object of many, many thread fights over the last year or so, both here and at OO, and perhaps it's time to accept the idea that that may be due to some subconscious need to elevate yourself at the expense of others.  If you want to be able to exist within a social environment such as an online forum without constant conflict, you're going to need to do something about the way in which you express your opinions.  Everyone argues on the 'net from time to time, but I don't think I've seen as high a number of negative reactions to a poster as you seem to collect in your travels.

Quote
You demonstrated long ago that you didn't have the kind of online personality that I would ever invest anything emotional in.

If you're investing any emotion in responses from folks in an online forum, you should probably reevaluate your participation in such venues. 
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« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2008, 02:52:47 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 28, 2008, 02:43:34 PM

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 28, 2008, 02:34:34 PM

I wonder if you get the same urges when you read reviews around the net, and if you notice just how "condescending" people can get when they don't enjoy something.

Most folks around here don't (consistently) tell folks that they're morons if they don't agree with their view.  You really should seek out professional help.  I was sincere in my appraisal of your issues and I think you need to look into yourself to see if perhaps there's something that can be done.  You've been the object of many, many thread fights over the last year or so, both here and at OO, and perhaps it's time to accept the idea that that may be due to some subconscious need to elevate yourself at the expense of others.  If you want to be able to exist within a social environment such as an online forum without constant conflict, you're going to need to do something about the way in which you express your opinions.  Everyone argues on the 'net from time to time, but I don't think I've seen as high a number of negative reactions to a poster as you seem to collect in you travels.

Quote
You demonstrated long ago that you didn't have the kind of online personality that I would ever invest anything emotional in.

If you're investing any emotion in responses from folks in an online forum, you should probably reevaluate your participation in such venues. 

Whoa...hepcat said something deep....do we need to mark our calendars or something???   icon_lol
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« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2008, 02:55:35 PM »

This thread took a turn straight into Suckville.
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« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2008, 02:57:13 PM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 28, 2008, 02:55:35 PM

This thread took a turn straight into Suckville.

Agreed.  I think we've firmly established DArtagnan's feelings about the film's fans as well as those fans' feelings about DArtagnan.  So from this point why don't we stick to opinions about the films in question. 
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« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2008, 02:59:53 PM »

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

I have to agree somewhat with Yellowking.  I thought Ledger gave a much stronger performance than Nicholson (as pointed out by others, Jack was just being Jack for the most part), but I thought his Joker was lacking some of the over the top maniacal antics that I've come to expect from The Joker as depicted in the comics.  I'm not trivializing Ledger's accomplishments though.  If the Joker had been a new character without such a rich history, I'd have been knocked out of my seat by his work!
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« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2008, 03:01:20 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on August 28, 2008, 02:57:13 PM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on August 28, 2008, 02:55:35 PM

This thread took a turn straight into Suckville.

Agreed.  I think we've firmly established DArtagnan's feelings about the film's fans as well as those fans' feelings about DArtagnan.  So from this point why don't we stick to opinions about the films in question. 

+1.

Quote from: The Grue on August 27, 2008, 09:57:14 PM

Quote from: warning on August 27, 2008, 11:29:32 AM


As far as the Joker needing a backstory - nah.  I like my villains to be villains, not tortured souls with troubled backgrounds.  That just seems trite.

Yeah, but there has to be a reason for someone to just become all twisted like that.  This is where the back story comes in.  Finding out what makes somebody become a psychopath makes a villain so much more interesting.

I'm on the fence about this one.  On one hand, I think that the Joker was handled brilliantly as he showed up as the unstoppable force that no one knew or understood, and on the other, I would love to know what made him the way he is.  The problem is that I feel that it would probably bring the movie down if you ended up sympathizing with him and placing blame elsewhere for all of the sick and twisted things he did.

Rick
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« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2008, 03:28:07 PM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 28, 2008, 02:34:34 PM

Oh my, such emotion slywink

Anyway, interesting reactions all around. Pretty extreme since we're talking about a film that I didn't enjoy as much as you, and felt the need to point out what I found to be crappy about it. I wonder if you get the same urges when you read reviews around the net, and if you notice just how "condescending" people can get when they don't enjoy something. I guess pointing out flaws without smoothing things over is pretentious and preachy to you, hmm? Hehe, whatever.

Anyway, I can see this is a touchy subject.

I'll leave you to it.

Oh, and I especially enjoyed hippy's little comment about pity and wanting me to get help? What a joke. Have you read some of the "didn't like it" comments on IMDB? I guess A LOOOOT of people need psychological help.

Just FYI - it's as irrelevant to me how you feel as ever hepcat. You demonstrated long ago that you didn't have the kind of online personality that I would ever invest anything emotional in. That said, you're probably a nice dude in real life. But you really do come off as a schoolboy drone to me.

Your dislike of the film wasn't what forum members took issue with.  It was the manner in which you expressed your dislike of the film. 

Quote from: DArtagnan on August 27, 2008, 09:32:50 PM

You drones crack me up slywink

...

You could - of course - try using your brain when watching something, but don't hold me responsible if something bursts  eek

Expressing dislike for a film by presenting reasons for your point of view is perfectly acceptable and while some may choose to disagree, few would take particular issue with your position, especially if presented with support for your claim.  However, quips such as "try using your brain...but don't hold me responsible if something bursts" and throwing around the "drones" moniker add very little value to your film critique and instead cause strife with those aiming to discuss a film's merits or an unfortunate lack thereof.

My personal use of the words "condescending" and "pretentious" were in fact accurate in reference to the tone of your comments, and the manner in which you presented your point of view was in fact condescending and a bit high-horse.  Perhaps you should reread my initial assessment of your ramblings and to what specifically I had referred to and if you take issue with my perception then correct my stance by addressing my comments directly, not by flippantly referring to them in yet another attempt at implying a high road on which you do not travel.  Perhaps I've erred in my perceptions, but your tone doesn't seem to have changed and while some have made an effort to present some constructive criticism aimed at improving discourse amongst forum members, you seem to miss the point completely by yet again implying a moral high ground and a general community-wide lack of communicational savvy.

We've gathered that you did not enjoy The Dark Knight.  However, the issue is not necessarily with your stance, but how you communicated said dislike.  Simply stating, "I did not enjoy The Dark Knight because..." and then providing reasons is one thing.  But also implying a general lack of intelligence possessed by any who gained enjoyment from the film or appreciated various subtle nuances you may have missed is exactly where the discussion took a turn for the worse.

My aim isn't to necessarily belabor this unfortunate derailment, but to hopefully point out that dissenting opinions are welcomed and encouraged as they lead to rather poignant discussions about any number of topics.  However, the manner of discourse does matter and Mr. DArtigan is missing that very important point of distinction.   
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« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2008, 03:57:36 PM »

You guys really are pathetically unfair about this.

How can you personally be insulted because I said the FILM has the moral concepts of a 10 year old. That's my opinion of the film. Are you saying you don't think similar things of some films and that some people like those films? Think of a film you don't think is smart and you'll be surprised how many people disagree.

How you can turn that around to me personally insulting everyone who likes it is incredibly weak.

I said what I thought of the film and didn't include anything personal.

Then I get this:

Quote
he didn't understand the actual message of the film and is giving you his view based solely on this inability to grasp that message.  therefore the elaboration will simply be an extension of that misunderstanding.  ergo:  pointless

So I respond in kind with a tongue-in-cheek superior attitude complete with smilies. What else can I do. I've already earned damnation for calling out the films flaws.

You have this love of a film and for some reason you're taking it all extremely personally. I'm sorry, but there's really no other way to respond to such a mob mentality. If I was the kind of person who cared that a mob was despising me because I didn't agree with them, I might be disturbed by your emotional responses.

So I don't always enjoy the most popular films, though I love Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Aliens, etc. I can still bitch about their flaws. So you conclude the obvious that I must hate everything popular because that's the only way you can fit my dislike for your beloved film into an image you can understand.

What's the point of sugarcoating how I feel about a film, really? Are you that insecure about your own opinion that I must word it delicately? I think the film is incredibly flawed - I really do. What the hell can I do except express that opinion as it is. If someone called my favorite films pathetically flawed or stupid - as has happened many times before - what do I do? I shrug it off as another differing opinion. What do you do? You gang up like an insecure bunch of children hating on the nay-sayer.

Now, that really IS pathetic.

So I insulted you all, because you're all behaving like little bully children ganging up on someone because you can.

What a waste of forum space it is to offer conflicting opinions in this place.

Just ban me already. It'll save me the trouble of rediscovering how insecure you are about things, and it'll save you from ever reading my opposing viewpoint again. I'll do my best to stay way in case you can't be bothered to ban me, but eventually i'll forget again and start the cycle all over again.
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« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2008, 04:01:40 PM »

Please, just move on.  This derail has become tiresome at this point.
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« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2008, 04:02:20 PM »

Yep, time for a lock. 
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