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Author Topic: Bye Bye Net Neutrality  (Read 1033 times)
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Soulchilde
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« on: January 15, 2014, 10:55:37 AM »

Surprised this wasn't posted yet, but yesterday a DC Appeals Court struck down parts of the FCC Net Neutrality


Quote from: The Verge
A federal appeals court has struck down important segments of the FCC's Open Internet rules, determining that the agency doesn't have the power to require internet service providers to treat all traffic equally. The DC circuit court has ruled on Verizon v. FCC, a challenge to the net neutrality rules put in place in 2010, vacating the FCC's anti-discrimination and anti-blocking policies, though it preserved disclosure requirements that Verizon opposed — in other words, carriers can make some traffic run faster or block other services, but they have to tell subscribers.


While all the major carriers have come out and stated nothing will change I can imagine they are finding ways to monetize this and it will affect consumers negatively
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2014, 04:09:02 PM »

I was rather disappointed about this but I don't know enough of the subtle points to know if I should be really upset or if this is just an anomaly.

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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2014, 04:23:54 PM »

Quote from: Soulchilde on January 15, 2014, 10:55:37 AM

While all the major carriers have come out and stated nothing will change I can imagine they are finding ways to monetize this and it will affect consumers negatively

AT&T came out with their announcement of 'toll-free data' before the ruling came down.  Basically, content providers can pay AT&T so that consumers can view/download their content where it doesn't count against the consumers' data package limits.
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2014, 04:53:56 PM »

another win for the corporations.  great
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2014, 05:38:50 PM »

I think the hope is that the FCC will re-classify online connections to common carrier. Which would give them a much stronger leg to dictate terms. The problem is the FCC chairman was a lobbyist for cable & wireless. Which isn't to say he won't do something but more than likely will not. We really need an FCC that has the guts to go all in but I just don't see that happening.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go bleach my brain after reading a comment on GigaOm from an idiot that thinks neutrality is a bad thing.
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Canuck
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2014, 10:09:16 AM »

Yeah this sucks. Apparently in Canada,  Rogers cable is coming out with their own streaming service. They could make Netflix count against your bandwith limit but not the amount that you use through their own streaming service. Internet providers should not also be the content providers.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2014, 03:27:27 PM »

Quote
Internet providers should not also be the content providers.

There should at least be internal firewalls that prevent them from being in the same business unit.  Just imagine if Time Warner hadn't spun off their cable unit. 
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Andrew Wonser
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2014, 06:28:39 PM »

Well it's pretty much confirmed that net neutrality is dead. Hooray for closed door promises and lobbyists becoming policy makers and policy makers becoming lobbyists.
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Lee
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2014, 06:39:48 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on April 24, 2014, 06:28:39 PM

Well it's pretty much confirmed that net neutrality is dead. Hooray for closed door promises and lobbyists becoming policy makers and policy makers becoming lobbyists.

Yep, I am pretty liberal, but honestly with this, f*** Obama. No different than any other politician, appointing a lobbyist to the head of the FCC was BS, now we the consumers get the brunt of the costs yet again while the businesses prosper.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 09:17:37 PM by Lee » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2014, 09:09:04 PM »

Quote from: Lee on April 24, 2014, 06:39:48 PM

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on April 24, 2014, 06:28:39 PM

Well it's pretty much confirmed that net neutrality is dead. Hooray for closed door promises and lobbyists becoming policy makers and policy makers becoming lobbyists.

Yep, I am pretty liberal, but honestly with this, f*** Obama.

HOPE!
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2014, 09:36:49 PM »

Quote from: Lee on April 24, 2014, 06:39:48 PM

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on April 24, 2014, 06:28:39 PM

Well it's pretty much confirmed that net neutrality is dead. Hooray for closed door promises and lobbyists becoming policy makers and policy makers becoming lobbyists.

Yep, I am pretty liberal, but honestly with this, f*** Obama. No different than any other politician, appointing a lobbyist to the head of the FCC was BS, now we the consumers get the brunt of the costs yet again while the businesses prosper.

I've long been of the opinion that the majority of our elected officials across the board on both the local and federal levels have been bought and sold for years. While I trend towards agreeing with perspectives espoused by liberals, I stopped deluding myself that politicians as a group are concerned with the well being of our country or it's people over money and power. Makes me fucking sick.
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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2014, 10:13:33 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on April 24, 2014, 09:36:49 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 24, 2014, 06:39:48 PM

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on April 24, 2014, 06:28:39 PM

Well it's pretty much confirmed that net neutrality is dead. Hooray for closed door promises and lobbyists becoming policy makers and policy makers becoming lobbyists.

Yep, I am pretty liberal, but honestly with this, f*** Obama. No different than any other politician, appointing a lobbyist to the head of the FCC was BS, now we the consumers get the brunt of the costs yet again while the businesses prosper.

I've long been of the opinion that the majority of our elected officials across the board on both the local and federal levels have been bought and sold for years.

This is the truth.
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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2014, 11:11:49 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 24, 2014, 10:13:33 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on April 24, 2014, 09:36:49 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 24, 2014, 06:39:48 PM

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on April 24, 2014, 06:28:39 PM

Well it's pretty much confirmed that net neutrality is dead. Hooray for closed door promises and lobbyists becoming policy makers and policy makers becoming lobbyists.

Yep, I am pretty liberal, but honestly with this, f*** Obama. No different than any other politician, appointing a lobbyist to the head of the FCC was BS, now we the consumers get the brunt of the costs yet again while the businesses prosper.

I've long been of the opinion that the majority of our elected officials across the board on both the local and federal levels have been bought and sold for years.

This is the truth.

More here.

http://benswann.com/princeton-study-declares-u-s-government-an-oligarchy/
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2014, 11:27:03 PM »

Quote from: Lee on April 24, 2014, 06:39:48 PM

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on April 24, 2014, 06:28:39 PM

Well it's pretty much confirmed that net neutrality is dead. Hooray for closed door promises and lobbyists becoming policy makers and policy makers becoming lobbyists.

Yep, I am pretty liberal, but honestly with this, f*** Obama.


I notice that linked article omits a few key points about the backstory here, including the fact that the FCC has fought multiple legal battles in federal court to preserve Net Neutrality regulations.  Their most recent loss, which legally required them to generate the new rules described above, came just three months ago:

Quote from: The New York Times
WASHINGTON — Internet service providers are free to make deals with services like Netflix or Amazon allowing those companies to pay to stream their products to online viewers through a faster, express lane on the web, a federal appeals court ruled on Tuesday.

Federal regulators had tried to prevent those deals, saying they would give large, rich companies an unfair edge in reaching consumers. But since the Internet is not considered a utility under federal law, the court said, it is not subject to regulations banning the arrangements.

Some deals could come soon. In challenging the 2010 regulations at issue in the case, Verizon told the court that if not for the rules by the Federal Communications Commission, “we would be exploring those commercial arrangements.”


Emphasis mine.  The decision was handed down by the United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit, the second-most powerful and influential judicial body in the country...and one that Republicans have gone to unprecedented lengths to prevent President Obama from filling vacant seats.  From just five months ago:

Quote from: The Guardian
Senate Republicans have again blocked a candidate nominated by Barack Obama for a vacancy in the second most powerful court in the US.

Robert Wilkins, a district judge in Washington, is the president's third consecutive nominee to the US court for appeals for the District of Columbia circuit to have been blocked.

The Senate voted 53-38 in favour of ending Republican-led delays, falling seven votes short of the 60 needed to advance Wilkins' nomination. Two Republican senators, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Susan Collins of Maine, voted with the Democrats.

The GOP is seeking to prevent President Obama's nominees from filling any of the three vacancies on the 11-seat court, over concerns it would affect its Republican bent.


Note that that the 60 vote "requirement" to advance the nomination existed because of the standing filibuster Republicans enacted against *all* of Obama's judicial appointments.  They deemed any attempt to fill a judicial vacancy as "court packing."  See here for an excellent summary, as well as here and here for more examples throughout the year.

Does learning more about the backstory here do anything to adjust your "Fuck Obama!" conclusion?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2014, 11:38:33 PM »

Quote from: Default on April 24, 2014, 11:11:49 PM

Quote from: ATB on April 24, 2014, 10:13:33 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on April 24, 2014, 09:36:49 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 24, 2014, 06:39:48 PM

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on April 24, 2014, 06:28:39 PM

Well it's pretty much confirmed that net neutrality is dead. Hooray for closed door promises and lobbyists becoming policy makers and policy makers becoming lobbyists.

Yep, I am pretty liberal, but honestly with this, f*** Obama. No different than any other politician, appointing a lobbyist to the head of the FCC was BS, now we the consumers get the brunt of the costs yet again while the businesses prosper.

I've long been of the opinion that the majority of our elected officials across the board on both the local and federal levels have been bought and sold for years.

This is the truth.

More here.

http://benswann.com/princeton-study-declares-u-s-government-an-oligarchy/

Thanks for saving me the trouble of linking to that study, but curse you for taking my post!  icon_confused

Of course it's all about what's best for the oligarchs, as always.
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Lee
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2014, 12:07:06 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on April 24, 2014, 11:27:03 PM

Does learning more about the backstory here do anything to adjust your "Fuck Obama!" conclusion?

Not even slightly. You failed to tell me anything I hadn't already read about (or is relevant to the newest news on the subject).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 12:27:52 AM by Lee » Logged
Autistic Angel
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2014, 12:44:05 AM »

Quote from: Lee on April 25, 2014, 12:07:06 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on April 24, 2014, 11:27:03 PM

Does learning more about the backstory here do anything to adjust your "Fuck Obama!" conclusion?

Not even slightly. You failed to tell me anything I hadn't already read about (or is relevant to the newest news on the subject).


I would contend that knowing these new FCC regulations are the direct result of a court order is extremely relevant to the topic of new FCC regulations.

After fighting and losing those court cases, what would you have had the Obama administration do to

a) satisfy your desire to enforce Net Neutrality regulations, and

b) remain in accordance with the DC Court of Appeals decision that Net Neutrality regulations may no longer be legally enforced?

-Autistic Angel
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 12:46:50 AM by Autistic Angel » Logged
Lee
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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2014, 01:57:08 AM »

No, the current, former lobbyist for the industry, decided to change the FCC's standpoint on the issue.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2014, 02:23:47 AM »

I've spent some time documenting why those changes are coming down the pipe, including direct links to external sources.  If my understanding is incorrect, I'll be glad to look at your evidence.

-Autistic Angel

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Lee
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« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2014, 03:06:13 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on April 25, 2014, 02:23:47 AM

I've spent some time documenting why those changes are coming down the pipe, including direct links to external sources.  If my understanding is incorrect, I'll be glad to look at your evidence.

That's because you choose not to read the articles that are out there that point out what the options were and how things could be handled. I don't care enough to get in a link by link, line by line argument with you. You can go to just about any tech site and read what happened. If you feel the FCC had no choice, great for you, no one else agrees with you of course.

The president but a lobbyist in a position of power of the industry that he lobbied for, if you don't see the conflict of interest, well then...I have nothing to say to you anyway.
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Harpua3
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« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2014, 06:03:36 AM »

Thanks government for ruining something else ...
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2014, 10:56:42 AM »

Quote from: Lee on April 25, 2014, 03:06:13 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on April 25, 2014, 02:23:47 AM

I've spent some time documenting why those changes are coming down the pipe, including direct links to external sources.  If my understanding is incorrect, I'll be glad to look at your evidence.

That's because you choose not to read the articles that are out there that point out what the options were and how things could be handled. I don't care enough to get in a link by link, line by line argument with you. You can go to just about any tech site and read what happened. If you feel the FCC had no choice, great for you, no one else agrees with you of course.

The president but a lobbyist in a position of power of the industry that he lobbied for, if you don't see the conflict of interest, well then...I have nothing to say to you anyway.


Okay, can someone other than Lee link me to one of the tech site articles he's talking about?  

I have several news, policy analysis, and gaming-related sites in my rotation, but nothing that would qualify as a tech site.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2014, 10:58:39 AM »

Quote from: Harpua3 on April 25, 2014, 06:03:36 AM

Thanks government for ruining something else ...

I don't get this line of thought at all. It was the GOVERNMENT that was trying to enforce the net neutrality. You should say "thanks to Big Business for ruining something else".

Of course if you believe in capitalism and a free market this decision was the correct one. In the end consumer voices should decide the issue, not government regulation.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2014, 04:05:28 PM »

The court ruled that the internet industry isn't classified as a utility.  The correct next step is to get Congress to remedy that situation. 
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« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2014, 05:53:30 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on April 25, 2014, 04:05:28 PM

The court ruled that the internet industry isn't classified as a utility.  The correct next step is to get Congress to remedy that situation. 

fat chance
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« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2014, 05:22:41 PM »

Yep.

This issue will come to ahead again once it's used against one of the big 10 rights, especially free speech.

Only problem is, so much of how this went down was in the back rooms of corporations, so someone with a packet sniffer and a lot of time is going to have to find something.

And with the way they gutted whistleblower laws too, it'll be hard to find out about it for the civil liberties groups to attack it.
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« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2014, 07:50:24 PM »

I'm still trying to figure out the discrepancy between Comcast's Speed test, which rates my connection as 36Mbps, but I can't stream a Netflix HD movie without it randomly degrading to 480P, and my connection to Steam downloads caps out at about 4Mbps. I've got top tier equipment, so it can't be the hardware.

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« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2014, 08:26:28 PM »

Quote from: Dante Rising on April 26, 2014, 07:50:24 PM

I'm still trying to figure out the discrepancy between Comcast's Speed test, which rates my connection as 36Mbps, but I can't stream a Netflix HD movie without it randomly degrading to 480P, and my connection to Steam downloads caps out at about 4Mbps. I've got top tier equipment, so it can't be the hardware.



I always assume the problem is on their end, not mine. Watching a movie on iTunes at 9pm on a Friday night seems to be slower than watching a movie at noon on a Monday in my experience.
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« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2014, 09:22:07 PM »

Quote from: Dante Rising on April 26, 2014, 07:50:24 PM

I'm still trying to figure out the discrepancy between Comcast's Speed test, which rates my connection as 36Mbps, but I can't stream a Netflix HD movie without it randomly degrading to 480P, and my connection to Steam downloads caps out at about 4Mbps. I've got top tier equipment, so it can't be the hardware.

In general, this is exactly what net neutrality was intended to fix.  Without that your ISP can give preferential treatment to traffic from any companies that they want, and require payment from others (like Netflix) that use a disproportionately large amount of bandwidth or else throttle it.  You have no idea who or what could be throttling things behind the scenes but it's likely entirely out of your control. 

Also, make sure you're using an independent speed test and not something that is Comcast-only, as that will likely give you inflated numbers compared to reality.
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« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2014, 12:02:43 AM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on April 26, 2014, 09:22:07 PM

Quote from: Dante Rising on April 26, 2014, 07:50:24 PM

I'm still trying to figure out the discrepancy between Comcast's Speed test, which rates my connection as 36Mbps, but I can't stream a Netflix HD movie without it randomly degrading to 480P, and my connection to Steam downloads caps out at about 4Mbps. I've got top tier equipment, so it can't be the hardware.

In general, this is exactly what net neutrality was intended to fix.  Without that your ISP can give preferential treatment to traffic from any companies that they want, and require payment from others (like Netflix) that use a disproportionately large amount of bandwidth or else throttle it.  You have no idea who or what could be throttling things behind the scenes but it's likely entirely out of your control.  

Also, make sure you're using an independent speed test and not something that is Comcast-only, as that will likely give you inflated numbers compared to reality.

I also use speedtest.net, and it reports basically the same thing. I have noticed, as you've mentioned, speeds can vary dramatically, as one time last week I was having trouble streaming Netflix and speedtest logged my connection as .2Mbps. I also think that Comcast begins throttling my bandwidth after a certain download cap. As the month goes on my speeds seem to become increasingly varied.

The bothersome part is that i purposefully picked the more expensive plan to avoid these issues. Regarding Net Neutrality, I agree that Pandora's Box may soon be opening as gamers and movie aficionados absorb more bandwidth due to the quickly growing data transfer sizes. Comcast and other providers will definitely begin a tiered system, and I have a feeling it will be rather restrictive or expensive.
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« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2014, 02:46:54 AM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on April 26, 2014, 09:22:07 PM

Quote from: Dante Rising on April 26, 2014, 07:50:24 PM

I'm still trying to figure out the discrepancy between Comcast's Speed test, which rates my connection as 36Mbps, but I can't stream a Netflix HD movie without it randomly degrading to 480P, and my connection to Steam downloads caps out at about 4Mbps. I've got top tier equipment, so it can't be the hardware.

In general, this is exactly what net neutrality was intended to fix.  Without that your ISP can give preferential treatment to traffic from any companies that they want, and require payment from others (like Netflix) that use a disproportionately large amount of bandwidth or else throttle it.  You have no idea who or what could be throttling things behind the scenes but it's likely entirely out of your control.  


This is pretty much the whole thing, in a nutshell.

With Net Neutrality, internet companies compete to provide you with the fastest and most reliable access to the internet, and content providers compete to entice you to utilize their services.

Without Net Neutrality, internet companies suddenly become governors over what content is allowed to arrive in your home.  Netflix no longer gets to focus on having a great library for people to stream -- now they also have to broker deals with Comcast, Cox, AT&T, and every other ISP in the country or risk being outperformed by companies that do.  And if you happen to be a company like DirecTV that's running in direct competition with Comcast's television service, they now have the legal right to throttle your VOD out of existence.  All in the name of "network efficiency" for all the great Comcast VOD content, of course.

One option will be to switch internet service providers.  I live in a suburban area on the East Coast with comparatively modern infrastructure, and my current options are:

1) Comcast cable
2) AT&T DSL

That's it.  Of course, if I want to do anything like download 45-gig PS4 games in anything approaching a timely fashion, there's really just the one choice.  I've basically got to pray that Sony and Comcast hammer out some sort of super sweet deal where I'm *allowed* to upgrade my home internet with the "Sony / Steam / Netflix Bundle!" so I'm able to use those services in the future.  I wonder how much extra that will cost.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2014, 07:04:20 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on April 27, 2014, 02:46:54 AM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on April 26, 2014, 09:22:07 PM

Quote from: Dante Rising on April 26, 2014, 07:50:24 PM

I'm still trying to figure out the discrepancy between Comcast's Speed test, which rates my connection as 36Mbps, but I can't stream a Netflix HD movie without it randomly degrading to 480P, and my connection to Steam downloads caps out at about 4Mbps. I've got top tier equipment, so it can't be the hardware.

In general, this is exactly what net neutrality was intended to fix.  Without that your ISP can give preferential treatment to traffic from any companies that they want, and require payment from others (like Netflix) that use a disproportionately large amount of bandwidth or else throttle it.  You have no idea who or what could be throttling things behind the scenes but it's likely entirely out of your control.  


 I live in a suburban area on the East Coast with comparatively modern infrastructure, and my current options are:

1) Comcast cable
2) AT&T DSL

That's it.

-Autistic Angel


I have those exact choices also. Godawful DSL or Comcast. And although Comcast's service has been reliable (cant recall the last outage) the quality fluctuates greatly. With so many people dropping regular cable TV in favor of things like Netflix and HBO Go, I foresee Comcast turning the screws on the streaming content providers AND the customer. In my area Comcast has already instituted a 250GB cap. (although it is temporarily suspended). After surpassing that cap they were planning to charge $1 for every extra 1GB in my area. Between downloading PS4 and Vita games, coupled with Netflix for my family, I run about 300GB per month. That would place my bill at $110 instead of the current $60.

Basically, that would place me right back to where I was before I dropped cable TV for only Internet service.
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« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2014, 01:49:37 PM »

My two choices are  Time Warner Cable and Whoever the phone company is for Internet.

Same as AA, it's no choice at all.

But the TWC has upped my rates year in year out, I've thought about switching just so I can join again at a discounted rate. So far I haven't done it.
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« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2014, 05:58:40 PM »

AT&T is responding to Google by rolling out their own Gigabit internet. They've decided that they're tired of being a laughingstock when they pioneered this stuff.

Or at least, whoever was wearing the same face, as AT&T now is what used to be Southwestern Bell. Dear overlords, is the telephone family tree convoluted and incestuous.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 04:18:23 PM by Isgrimnur » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2014, 04:46:58 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on April 25, 2014, 04:05:28 PM

The court ruled that the internet industry isn't classified as a utility.  The correct next step is to get Congress to remedy that situation. 

Boom.
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