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Author Topic: [RP] President says "suffer" to gas prices  (Read 9426 times)
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msduncan
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« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2006, 03:17:41 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
So let me get this straight-

* The oil industry closes down a significant percentage of refineries.
* The oil industry has not built even ONE new refinery in decades.
* The oil industry has been making billions without reinvesting one red cent back into their business.



I'm guessing you are referring to me?    I never said we should 'give' the oil industry anything at all.   Refineries haven't been being built because restrictions and regulations prohibiting and making it next to impossible for them to be built.

Refineries are going off line for long periods to retool the mixes for this gourmet blends.


One red cent?   They've been begging to do oil exploration everywhere from Alaska to the Guilf of Mexico.    Somehow the same people that scream every time they want to drill somewhere are the same people that scream about them not reinvesting any money.

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 which has gone right into the pockets of their investors.


Links please?


Quote

* The oil industry has failed to invest ANY money into new technologies to make refineries pollute less, or to improve their methods.


Links please?   The oil industy has made leaps and bounds of progress in pollution controls over the last 20 years.     I'll dig up an article from msnbc about this tomorrow and link it here.


Quote


Does it cost too much to make 30 different blends?  Fine, then work on a 'common denominator' blend, and just go with that.  Heaven forbid a multi-billion dollar industry be inconvenienced with making more than a dozen different products!  Oh, the humanity


These blends are enforced by state regulations.   This is not the fault of the oil companies.


I relalize it's easy for some people to fall into the 'evil oil company' trap.   They make lots of money so people hate them.    It's common human nature.   However, these problems are NOT the industry's fault.   These companies would make more money if they could produce more oil and refine more oil.   How in God's name can even common logic make people think that they would decide a certain level of production was too much?  They're selling it as fast as they can produce it.    It's as simple as that.
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« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2006, 03:33:12 AM »

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20060428/D8H8ODE05.html

"While Exxon Mobil executives are popping champagne and celebrating their record profits, American families are popping antacids under the strain of searing gas prices," said Sen. Bob Menendez, D-N.J.,

I think the governments taxation of the oil companies should ratchet up exponentially when it's obvious they're making far too much money off us poor saps. Stick the screws to them like they are doing to us.
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msduncan
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« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2006, 11:32:33 AM »

Quote from: "PaulBot"
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20060428/D8H8ODE05.html

"While Exxon Mobil executives are popping champagne and celebrating their record profits, American families are popping antacids under the strain of searing gas prices," said Sen. Bob Menendez, D-N.J.,

I think the governments taxation of the oil companies should ratchet up exponentially when it's obvious they're making far too much money off us poor saps. Stick the screws to them like they are doing to us.


Links please?  (other than a Democrat giving a dramatic quote in an election year)

And exactly what part of taxing a corporation is going to lower prices for goods?     Why don't we just tax China and India since they are the main source of this problem (/sarcasm)
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« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2006, 03:46:40 PM »

Hmm, you bring a good point on the gas tax fueling the road construction.  I honestly don't know what I'd do if the smacktards in Phoenix didn't have a whole year to rest on their ass and built ONE SINGLE OFFRAMP.  (I'm not exaggerating, when I got here, the Bell exit offramp took an entire year to build.)  There is another rampant goverment problem, but I digress...
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« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2006, 04:44:08 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
So let me get this straight-

* The oil industry closes down a significant percentage of refineries.
* The oil industry has not built even ONE new refinery in decades.
* The oil industry has been making billions without reinvesting one red cent back into their business.
* The oil industry has been getting billions of dollars in corporate welfare from the government, which has gone right into the pockets of their investors.
* The oil industry has failed to invest ANY money into new technologies to make refineries pollute less, or to improve their methods.

We need to stop coddling the oil industry.  When Exxon posts world history making profits quarter after quarter, it's amusing how a self-proclaimed 'fiscal conservative' says we need to help them out more.

The oil industry makes enough money to take care of itself.  It needs zero help from the government, and there should be MORE environmental laws rather than fewer.

Does it cost too much to make 30 different blends?  Fine, then work on a 'common denominator' blend, and just go with that.  Heaven forbid a multi-billion dollar industry be inconvenienced with making more than a dozen different products!  Oh, the humanity!


As msduncan said, you do realize that the vast majority of what you're complaining about here is the government's fault, not the oil companies, right?  I'm sure the oil companies want to build new refineries and not make 30+ different gasoline blends, but the government won't let them.
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« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2006, 04:54:05 PM »

Quote from: "pr0ner"
As msduncan said, you do realize that the vast majority of what you're complaining about here is the government's fault, not the oil companies, right?  I'm sure the oil companies want to build new refineries and not make 30+ different gasoline blends, but the government won't let them.


Absolutely!  Because an increase of 49% in profits (which is elaborated to be $4 billion in just three months) is just too damn little to afford to build new refineries.

Poor Chevron.  To think, they could've avoided earning such small profits if those evil environmentalists just wouldn't be so restrictive on them!
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« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2006, 04:56:36 PM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
1.  We don't have enough refineries.    Why don't we have enough refineries?   Because Democrats in congress continue to block, sink, and otherwise sabotage bills in congress that would pave the way for more refineries.    Before you say 'minority party', please remember that in our government's case, the minority party holds a tremendous amount of tools to control bills.    The start of which are riders on bills that cause the majority to vote against them.    They've been sinking attempts at paving the way for more refineries for 15 years, and it takes a while to build these facilities so even if they passed a bill tonight it would be a while before you saw the results.

Since NoxiousDog isn't around to pound you properly on this, I'll have to step in. I'm a poor substitute, but even I can manage this. :wink:

Tell me, MSD, if refineries haven't been built because the evil bad Democrats are stopping them, why haven't oil companies simply hopped the border and built them in Haiti, or Mexico? Those countries don't care what you do the environment, and it's not as if we have a problem importing gasoline. And yet…it hasn't happened.

Moreover, refinery regulation is overwhelmingly done at the state level, and plenty of states are controlled entirely by Republicans. And yet…no new refineries.

Why? Because refineries are really, really expensive, and nobody (Democrat or Republican) wants to live near one. Just try putting a refinery in Sugerland and see how well that goes over with the locals.

Moreover, it's a huge gamble. Breaking ground today on a 5 billion-dollar project that won't be profitable for 8 years (if it ever is) isn't a real attractive investment these days. What if gas consumption shifts while you're building it? What if Hillary wins the White House? What if SA runs out of oil? Why take any of these risks when profits are already high?

I know you love to blame Democrats, but the sad truth is the industry doesn't really want any new refineries. Or at least, they don't want to pay for them. Democrats are just a handy scapegoat.
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« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2006, 05:18:31 PM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
I'm guessing you are referring to me?


No, I was addressing the thread and contributing to the discussion.

Quote
I never said we should 'give' the oil industry anything at all.

But that's the problem... we ARE giving money to the oil industry.  Not just at the pump, but the government is giving them quite a bit of corporate welfare.
Quote
Refineries haven't been being built because restrictions and regulations prohibiting and making it next to impossible for them to be built.

And what data is this conclusion based upon?  I haven't seen any analysis backing this up.  Even stock market analysts come out and say this as B.S.

Quote
Jim Cramer, from TheStreet.com said:
the U.S. has seen no new refineries in 30 years. Cramer said that we'll likely not see another built for 30 more years because no one wants to live next door to a refinery. It's nearly impossible to expand refining capacity unless you already have it, he said, adding that Valero is in a position to expand.


The problem isn't environmental laws, the problem is local: nobody wants a refinery in their backyard.  And, since the oil indsustry refuses to address pollution concerns, this will never change.  They are in a trap of their own making, and oh what a profitable trap it is.

Quote
Refineries are going off line for long periods to retool the mixes for this gourmet blends.

Boohoo.  A multi-billion dollar corporation has to make more than one product.  Oh the horror.

The gas you are putting in your car today was made OVER A YEAR AGO.  They refine the gas, and it goes into a holding tank.  If the computers have to reformulation the gas a few times a year, I'm not going to shed a tear for them.  

You opinion obviously differs.
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One red cent?   They've been begging to do oil exploration everywhere from Alaska to the Guilf of Mexico.    Somehow the same people that scream every time they want to drill somewhere are the same people that scream about them not reinvesting any money.


So you claim there is ZERO oil anywhere except ANWAR?  Nowhere except Yellowstone?  Nowhere except other Federally protected lands?

I find that hard to believe.

Quote
Quote

 which has gone right into the pockets of their investors.


Links please?


Links to what?  To this?  How about you showing that the billions given to the oil industry this year was actually spent on research?  Refineries are still primarily using technology from the 1950s.  They spend more money on lobbists to fight legislation than they do trying to comply with the law.  It's the trademark Republican dodging of legality we all know and love.  Pick and choose what laws you follow!  The law is only a buffet!

Quote
Quote
* The oil industry has failed to invest ANY money into new technologies to make refineries pollute less, or to improve their methods.

These blends are enforced by state regulations.   This is not the fault of the oil companies.

Oh, poor little oil companies are forced to obey the law.  I'll start playing the world's smallest violin, just for them.

Face facts: these guys produce a product which harms the environment and contributes to global warming.  How sad that addressing this problem costs them a tiny fraction of the world record setting profits they can put out.

Quote
I relalize it's easy for some people to fall into the 'evil oil company' trap.   They make lots of money so people hate them.    It's common human nature.   However, these problems are NOT the industry's fault.   These companies would make more money if they could produce more oil and refine more oil.   How in God's name can even common logic make people think that they would decide a certain level of production was too much?  They're selling it as fast as they can produce it.    It's as simple as that.


That's their problem.  The fact is their profit is built on destruction of our environment.  I find it sad that you love oil companies more than you love the planet.
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« Reply #88 on: April 28, 2006, 06:21:06 PM »

Maybe we should outsource the creation of our energy policy to Brazil, since both our US leaders and industry has proven themselves incapable of creating a long term policy (making billions in profit is not a policy).

Quote
In contrast, Brazil is now reaping the benefits of its bold investment in energy independence. Brazil accepted a call to action in the 1970s, after soaring oil prices ravaged its economy.

Regrettably, the Brazilian public was cut out of early decision-making by the country's military dictatorship. But the dictatorship's policy of developing domestically produced ethanol as an alternative to gasoline has proved a big success. So was the development of domestic oil fields.

Today, Brazil's democratic government is continuing the policies. More than a third of Brazil's motor fuel is ethanol, made from sugar cane. And though Brazil still imports some light crude oil for refined products, its domestic production of heavy crude now exceeds internal demand.

As a result, Brazilian motorists are saving money by buying ethanol, which is less than two-thirds the cost of gasoline. And the nation will profit from oil exports, cushioning the economy against the rising cost of oil- related products.

The moral of Brazil's success story should not be lost on U.S. policy makers. By all means, the nation should enforce laws against price gouging and other manipulations. But America needs leaders who focus on long-term energy solutions like alternative fuels and conservation. Demagogues need not apply.
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« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2006, 06:47:44 PM »

Quote from: "Farscry"
Quote from: "pr0ner"
As msduncan said, you do realize that the vast majority of what you're complaining about here is the government's fault, not the oil companies, right?  I'm sure the oil companies want to build new refineries and not make 30+ different gasoline blends, but the government won't let them.


Absolutely!  Because an increase of 49% in profits (which is elaborated to be $4 billion in just three months) is just too damn little to afford to build new refineries.

Poor Chevron.  To think, they could've avoided earning such small profits if those evil environmentalists just wouldn't be so restrictive on them!


GAH!

You totally missed the point.  It's not that the oil companies WON'T build refineries.  It's because they CAN'T due to government restrictions.
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msduncan
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« Reply #90 on: April 28, 2006, 07:04:30 PM »

Quote from: "Farscry"
Quote from: "pr0ner"
As msduncan said, you do realize that the vast majority of what you're complaining about here is the government's fault, not the oil companies, right?  I'm sure the oil companies want to build new refineries and not make 30+ different gasoline blends, but the government won't let them.


Absolutely!  Because an increase of 49% in profits (which is elaborated to be $4 billion in just three months) is just too damn little to afford to build new refineries.

Poor Chevron.  To think, they could've avoided earning such small profits if those evil environmentalists just wouldn't be so restrictive on them!


I don't think you are even reading my posts.   Government regulations are prohibiting them from building new refineries.
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« Reply #91 on: April 28, 2006, 07:08:38 PM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
I don't think you are even reading my posts.   Government regulations are prohibiting them from building new refineries.

Are you reading mine?
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« Reply #92 on: April 28, 2006, 07:10:11 PM »

Quote from: "pr0ner"
You totally missed the point.  It's not that the oil companies WON'T build refineries.  It's because they CAN'T due to government restrictions.


And what data have you based this conclusion on?
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Little Raven
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« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2006, 07:11:08 PM »

Quote from: "pr0ner"
You totally missed the point.  It's not that the oil companies WON'T build refineries.  It's because they CAN'T due to government restrictions.

Bull. Even if we accept that mean Democrats are stopping the oil companies from building here in the US (which I reject, BTW) there's nothing stopping them from building in Mexico or Haiti. But they haven't.

Because there's no profit incentive to do so....
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« Reply #94 on: April 28, 2006, 07:11:18 PM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
I don't think you are even reading my posts.   Government regulations are prohibiting them from building new refineries.


Please relate an instance of the oil industry wanting to build a refinery and it was prevented by the gub'ment.
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msduncan
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« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2006, 07:22:32 PM »

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But that's the problem... we ARE giving money to the oil industry.  Not just at the pump, but the government is giving them quite a bit of corporate welfare.


And these laws were from when?  The 1990's when the oil industry was struggling.    If they are out of date then we should let them expire, but don't try to spin it like Bush is passing money giveaway laws to the profitable oil industry.   These laws were passed when they were in serious trouble.

Quote
And what data is this conclusion based upon?  I haven't seen any analysis backing this up.  Even stock market analysts come out and say this as B.S.


And where is your analysis backing this up?    

Quote

The problem isn't environmental laws, the problem is local: nobody wants a refinery in their backyard.  And, since the oil indsustry refuses to address pollution concerns, this will never change.  They are in a trap of their own making, and oh what a profitable trap it is.


Doesn't this fly in the face of you previous assertion that the oil companies aren't building refineries because they are expensive and they just don't want to spend the money?    Doesn't this also support the argument that regulations (be it federal, state, OR local due to concerned homeowners) are keeping these refineries from being built?

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Boohoo.  A multi-billion dollar corporation has to make more than one product.  Oh the horror.


Should I respond to this?    Each of these dozens of blends costs extra because the process is different.   That extra cost is going to jack the prices.    There shouldn't BE dozens of different blends.   It's ridiculous.


Quote
So you claim there is ZERO oil anywhere except ANWAR?  Nowhere except Yellowstone?  Nowhere except other Federally protected lands?  I find that hard to believe.


ANWAR holds the largest oil reserve in the United States.   Period.    It is far greater than anywhere in Montana, Texas, etc.   Why shouldn't we be using this resource?       Did I say that there was Zero oil anyplace else?   I said that ANWAR was our largest reserve by far.    It's the place that makes the most economic sense to invest in long term drilling.   You set up smaller drilling sites all over the US and it yields less and costs more.       Do people forget that Alaska was purchased for these types of resources in the first place?

Quote

Links to what?  To this?  How about you showing that the billions given to the oil industry this year was actually spent on research?  Refineries are still primarily using technology from the 1950s.  They spend more money on lobbists to fight legislation than they do trying to comply with the law.  It's the trademark Republican dodging of legality we all know and love.  Pick and choose what laws you follow!  The law is only a buffet!


Haha!   Nice.    The regulations they must fight against constantly are keeping the industry from oil exploration and extraction -- not to mention refining.    This industry was in dire straights 10 years ago.    Why is it suddenly different, because prices have gone up due to China, India, and a shortsighted government (and pseudo-anarchist environmental groups)?

Quote
Oh, poor little oil companies are forced to obey the law.  I'll start playing the world's smallest violin, just for them.

Face facts: these guys produce a product which harms the environment and contributes to global warming.  How sad that addressing this problem costs them a tiny fraction of the world record setting profits they can put out..


Never have understood the vitrolic hatred for a company or industry.

Quote

That's their problem.  The fact is their profit is built on destruction of our environment.  I find it sad that you love oil companies more than you love the planet.


LOL!   I don't care a lick about the oil industry.   I don't even own stock.    Your rabid environmentalism may have warped your sense of reality.
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« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2006, 07:47:29 PM »

I'm always amazed when someone finds the concept of corporate greed *less* believable than the concept of a vast, shadowy conspiracy of liberal activists who lurk on the fringes of public awareness and sew anarchy just for anarchy's sake.

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« Reply #97 on: April 28, 2006, 08:01:13 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
I'm always amazed when someone finds the concept of corporate greed *less* believable than the concept of a vast, shadowy conspiracy of liberal activists who lurk on the fringes of public awareness and sew anarchy just for anarchy's sake.

-Autistic Angel


There's nothing conspiracy about it -- Liberals have been quite up front and open about their opposition to any sort of oil exploration and refinery construction.      No need for a conspiracy when they don't hide it.
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« Reply #98 on: April 28, 2006, 08:08:21 PM »

okay how about this? instead of us all arguing over whos liberal, whos conservative etc etc etc and conducting marketing for oil industry / environmentalists, etc we offer our best solution and then write our congresspeople with the suggestion?

here's mine - tax the oil company profits - i have no clue how much, but theres quite a bit there to tax.  because youre taxing profits and not revenue there is NO WAY this can be passed onto consumers because it will blatantly smack of price manipulation.  use the proceeds from the tax to build the most up to date modern environmentally friendly refinery.  and if youre totally opposed to govt ownership, sell it back to someone, hell sell it at cost, sell it below whatever - the bottom line is the refinery will be built.  i was watching history channel about a month or two ago and it still amazes me that the bay bridge was built in 16 months (or was it 26?) i dont know the point is man did govt construct an amazing thing in a short amount of time that is still used today! AND it was under budget - lets get that productive capacity into some refineries!
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« Reply #99 on: April 28, 2006, 08:24:54 PM »

Quote from: "Doopri"
okay how about this? instead of us all arguing over whos liberal, whos conservative etc etc etc and conducting marketing for oil industry / environmentalists, etc we offer our best solution and then write our congresspeople with the suggestion?

here's mine - tax the oil company profits - i have no clue how much, but theres quite a bit there to tax.  because youre taxing profits and not revenue there is NO WAY this can be passed onto consumers because it will blatantly smack of price manipulation.  use the proceeds from the tax to build the most up to date modern environmentally friendly refinery.  and if youre totally opposed to govt ownership, sell it back to someone, hell sell it at cost, sell it below whatever - the bottom line is the refinery will be built.  i was watching history channel about a month or two ago and it still amazes me that the bay bridge was built in 16 months (or was it 26?) i dont know the point is man did govt construct an amazing thing in a short amount of time that is still used today! AND it was under budget - lets get that productive capacity into some refineries!


Government is not the answer.   LESS government is the answer.  Socialist solutions will not help the problem.   What we need is less government intervention and regulations.     The government-hands-on approach is exactly what got us to this point with gas prices (along with the uncontrollables like India and China).
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« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2006, 08:30:29 PM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
Government is not the answer.   LESS government is the answer.  Socialist solutions will not help the problem.   What we need is less government intervention and regulations.     The government-hands-on approach is exactly what got us to this point with gas prices (along with the uncontrollables like India and China).

Hello....Is this thing on? *tap tap tap*

How has government regulation prevented Exxon from building a refinery in Mexico? Companies have built power plants, textile mills, factories, and everything else you can think of across the border to escape regulation, and been highly successful at it.

Why no refineries?
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« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2006, 08:34:42 PM »

"LESS government is the answer" - now whos the anarchist?

why is it socialism now that govt is going to do something beneficial for the vast majority of people?  when the govt was aiding a struggling oil industry for many years, with subsidies and enormous tax breaks, no one decried the "socialist" tendencies.  now that that industry, which was helped for so long by our tax dollars, would be asked to kick in to the greater welfare from which it has benefitted for so long, its a bad thing?

oil struggles - people help = good
people struggle - oil help = bad

that isnt an equation for socialism, thats corruption

if less government is the answer, i think you should all stand up, appoint me king and i will completely remove every govt obstruction - i mean seriously if govt is so bad why waste our time with this silly outdated democracy?
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« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2006, 10:23:07 PM »

Quote from: "Little Raven"
Quote from: "pr0ner"
You totally missed the point.  It's not that the oil companies WON'T build refineries.  It's because they CAN'T due to government restrictions.

Bull. Even if we accept that mean Democrats are stopping the oil companies from building here in the US (which I reject, BTW) there's nothing stopping them from building in Mexico or Haiti. But they haven't.

Because there's no profit incentive to do so....


You're probably right, regarding the no profit incentive.  It's probably more expensive to transport refined gasoline than electricity; therefore, they don't want to do it.
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« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2006, 10:27:49 PM »

Quote from: "pr0ner"
You're probably right, regarding the no profit incentive.  It's probably more expensive to transport refined gasoline than electricity; therefore, they don't want to do it.

It is more expensive to transport gasoline, of course, but not much more. Gasoline transports extremely cheaply. That's part of why we use it so extensively.

We already import more than 10% of our gas. We'd happily import a lot more, at (for now) extremely high prices.

But no new refineries have been built anywhere around the US for decades. Isn't that odd?

Probably all the fault of Democrats. slywink
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« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2006, 10:43:38 PM »

Quote from: "pr0ner"
GAH!

You totally missed the point.  It's not that the oil companies WON'T build refineries.  It's because they CAN'T due to government restrictions.


No, I got your point.  I don't believe it.  Are you honestly saying that it's literally impossible to build a refinery due to government restrictions?  I sincerely doubt that.
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« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2006, 10:46:19 PM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
I don't think you are even reading my posts.   Government regulations are prohibiting them from building new refineries.


Sorry, didn't see this ridiculous response until after I responded to Pr0ner.  I'll repeat myself:  do you honestly expect me to believe that there are laws in place that literally make it impossible to build oil refineries in the US?
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« Reply #106 on: April 28, 2006, 11:02:56 PM »

here's mine - tax the oil company profits

Bad idea, the price of the final product would then be raised to cover the cost of those taxes, so if you want to pay even more for fuel then tax the companies more.
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Doopri
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« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2006, 11:06:52 PM »

drifter as i posted when i suggested doing the same - there is no way this tax could be pushed onto consumer - if you taxed revenue then maybe but there is no way they could get past price manipulation laws if we were to tax profits
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« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2006, 11:32:41 PM »

Quote from: "Doopri"
drifter as i posted when i suggested doing the same - there is no way this tax could be pushed onto consumer - if you taxed revenue then maybe but there is no way they could get past price manipulation laws if we were to tax profits


No, but they could manipulate expenses such that they could lower profits.

Of course, if they do that, their stocks take a hit.

I don't know, just seems like an overly complex way to deal.
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« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2006, 11:49:26 PM »

I had a long post, but my damn browser ate it.

Anyway, the jist of it was that MSD continues stating how regulation is destroying the oil industry's ability to make money, but has still not even attempted to back this claim up.  I'm going to come right out and state that it's complete and total B.S.

Another thing: there is not one shred of data showing that having to make 30 different blends is destroying their business.  Does McDonald's only make one product?  Last I noticed, they were still making money.

And finally, if such is really the case, why don't they just stop making 3 tiers of gas?  If they are getting destroyed by making regualar, special, and extra special, stop doing it!
...wait... that means they would only have 10 different blends to make.  OMG, I JUST REALIZED A WAY THE OIL INDUSTRY CAN INCREASE THEIR PROFITS BY 50000000%!!!!!!!  I'VE JUST SINGLEHANDEDLY SAVED THE OIL INDUSTRY!!!!!
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« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2006, 01:05:35 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
I had a long post, but my damn browser ate it.

Anyway, the jist of it was that MSD continues stating how regulation is destroying the oil industry's ability to make money, but has still not even attempted to back this claim up.  I'm going to come right out and state that it's complete and total B.S.


To this point I've provided as many sources as you have.    But here are some for your enjoyment:  

http://www.npc.org/reports/refining.html

And here is a quote:

Quote
The current refinery squeeze has been building for years. For the past two decades, deregulation and low profits have combined to push the industry into consolidation. Partly because of environmental regulations, it was cheaper to expand existing refineries than to build new ones. In 1981, the US had 324 refineries with a total capacity of 18.6 million barrels per day, the Department of Energy reports. Today, there are just 132 oil refineries with a capacity of 16.8 million b.p.d., according to Oil and Gas Journal, a trade publication.

This bottleneck is expected to keep pressure on gas prices - and politicians. Both parties are weighing measures to loosen environmental and permitting constraints for refineries.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0921/p11s02-usec.html

Quote

Another thing: there is not one shred of data showing that having to make 30 different blends is destroying their business.  Does McDonald's only make one product?  Last I noticed, they were still making money.


http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/Refining_text.htm

Refiners therefore strive to run the optimal mix (or "slate") of crudes through their refineries, depending on the refinery's equipment, the desired output mix, and the relative price of available crudes.  In recent years, refiners have confronted two opposite forces -- consumers' and government mandates that increasingly required light products of higher quality (the most difficult to produce) and crude oil supply that was increasingly heavier, with higher sulfur content (the most difficult to refine).


Quote

And finally, if such is really the case, why don't they just stop making 3 tiers of gas?  If they are getting destroyed by making regualar, special, and extra special, stop doing it!
...wait... that means they would only have 10 different blends to make.  OMG, I JUST REALIZED A WAY THE OIL INDUSTRY CAN INCREASE THEIR PROFITS BY 50000000%!!!!!!!  I'VE JUST SINGLEHANDEDLY SAVED THE OIL INDUSTRY!!!!!


Uhh.... Octane is probably the easiest factor.   But if you want to blanket dismiss my statements and position, and then internet-mock it by using all caps, that's fine with me.
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Little Raven
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« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2006, 01:20:23 AM »

Dude, look at your own quote!
Quote
The current refinery squeeze has been building for years. For the past two decades, deregulation and low profits have combined to push the industry into consolidation. Partly because of environmental regulations, it was cheaper to expand existing refineries than to build new ones. In 1981, the US had 324 refineries with a total capacity of 18.6 million barrels per day, the Department of Energy reports. Today, there are just 132 oil refineries with a capacity of 16.8 million b.p.d., according to Oil and Gas Journal, a trade publication.

Now look at what you originally posted:
Quote
We don't have enough refineries. Why don't we have enough refineries? Because Democrats in congress continue to block, sink, and otherwise sabotage bills in congress that would pave the way for more refineries.

You aren't even making a base attempt to be consistent. You haven't addressed even one of my posts, when I'm asking a very simple question.

One would almost suspect you don't like the answer.
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« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2006, 01:24:15 AM »

Quote from: "Little Raven"
Dude, look at your own quote!
Quote
The current refinery squeeze has been building for years. For the past two decades, deregulation and low profits have combined to push the industry into consolidation. Partly because of environmental regulations, it was cheaper to expand existing refineries than to build new ones. In 1981, the US had 324 refineries with a total capacity of 18.6 million barrels per day, the Department of Energy reports. Today, there are just 132 oil refineries with a capacity of 16.8 million b.p.d., according to Oil and Gas Journal, a trade publication.

Now look at what you originally posted:
Quote
We don't have enough refineries. Why don't we have enough refineries? Because Democrats in congress continue to block, sink, and otherwise sabotage bills in congress that would pave the way for more refineries.

You aren't even making a base attempt to be consistent. You haven't addressed even one of my posts, when I'm asking a very simple question.

One would almost suspect you don't like the answer.


Haven't directly responded to your post because I'm digging the google for the answers.   Please give me time.
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Little Raven
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« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2006, 01:52:11 AM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
Haven't directly responded to your post because I'm digging the google for the answers.   Please give me time.

That's fine. Take all the time you want. slywink
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« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2006, 02:21:25 AM »

More notes on the resistance, regulations, etc that consistently stand in the way of construction of refineries...

http://www.mexidata.info/id627.html

http://bajainsider.com/environment/ensenada-gas-terminal.htm

http://www.tierramerica.net/english/2006/0304/iarticulo.shtml

And according to this article, we might both be wrong:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/20/AR2006042000594.html

On my search for US refineries on Mexican soil, all I could find is state-controlled refineries in Mexico.    Are you sure that the Mexican government allows US companies to build oil refineries in Mexico?   It looks like the mexican refineries are all state-owned.
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« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2006, 02:49:10 AM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
On my search for US refineries on Mexican soil, all I could find is state-controlled refineries in Mexico.    Are you sure that the Mexican government allows US companies to build oil refineries in Mexico?   It looks like the mexican refineries are all state-owned.

Mexico allows us to build whatever we want, as long as the companies pay off the right officials. (and believe me, next to the cost of building a refinery, the bribes are chicken feed)

But Exxon hasn't built any refineries there. They haven't built them ANYWHERE in this hemisphere, despite the fact that they're a global company.

That’s because there hasn’t been any reason to build a new refinery. You’re a staunch believer in the free market, my friend. As such, you should recognize that our current refinery situation is not the result of evil Democrats or corrupt CEOs, but simply the free market in action. It takes many years and billions of dollars to build a new refinery. That’s one hell of an investment. And what happens when it’s finally done?

There is more gas on the market. More supply = lower prices. So even though you’ll be able to sell more gas, you’ll have to accept less money for it. Add to that the fact that you won’t see dime one from your investment until a decade after you make it, and the end result is that you’re not going to build a new refinery until you’re REALLY REALLY sure that prices are going to BE high and STAY high. Oil companies got badly burned 25 years ago. Gas prices soured, so they built several new refineries that all came online around the same time. Gas prices then TANKED, and oil companies took in the man parts. They are very, very hesitant to play that game again, particularly when there’s now fear that oil may be peaking. What’s the use of building refineries that will come online after the world has been forced off the petroleum drug?

Oil is a complicated game. There are a lot of players. When you try to boil something down to a simple partisan jibe in an attempt to score political points, you’re doing everyone a disservice. Leave that crap to the politicians and pundits. At least they get paid for it.
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« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2006, 03:16:00 AM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
http://www.npc.org/reports/refining.html

And here is a quote:

Quote
The current refinery squeeze has been building for years. For the past two decades, deregulation and low profits have combined to push the industry into consolidation. Partly because of environmental regulations, it was cheaper to expand existing refineries than to build new ones. In 1981, the US had 324 refineries with a total capacity of 18.6 million barrels per day, the Department of Energy reports. Today, there are just 132 oil refineries with a capacity of 16.8 million b.p.d., according to Oil and Gas Journal, a trade publication.

This bottleneck is expected to keep pressure on gas prices - and politicians. Both parties are weighing measures to loosen environmental and permitting constraints for refineries.


This is tripe.  It's just rehashed rhetoric.  All it shows is how they closed down thier own refineries, and are not building new ones.  It does zero to address the canard that "gub'ment" is prohibiting them from building new refineries.

Quote

Again, this report just shows how gasoline refiners have created their own problems, not that government is 'causing' their problems.

Quote
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/Refining_text.htm

Refiners therefore strive to run the optimal mix (or "slate") of crudes through their refineries, depending on the refinery's equipment, the desired output mix, and the relative price of available crudes.  In recent years, refiners have confronted two opposite forces -- consumers' and government mandates that increasingly required light products of higher quality (the most difficult to produce) and crude oil supply that was increasingly heavier, with higher sulfur content (the most difficult to refine).

So the problem is they are using lower quality oil.  Sorry, Charlie.  When the standards say you have to output a refined product, you are going to whine about how difficult it is to make that refined product?

If the high-sulfur oil is too hard to refine, don't buy it!  But that's the typical Republican answer: when the going gets tough, lower the bar.

Quote
Quote

And finally, if such is really the case, why don't they just stop making 3 tiers of gas?  If they are getting destroyed by making regualar, special, and extra special, stop doing it!
...wait... that means they would only have 10 different blends to make.  OMG, I JUST REALIZED A WAY THE OIL INDUSTRY CAN INCREASE THEIR PROFITS BY 50000000%!!!!!!!  I'VE JUST SINGLEHANDEDLY SAVED THE OIL INDUSTRY!!!!!


Uhh.... Octane is probably the easiest factor.   But if you want to blanket dismiss my statements and position, and then internet-mock it by using all caps, that's fine with me.


How many decades have they had to work with the auto industry?  If they told the auto industry they are only putting out one octane gas, the auto industry would make cars which ran on that gas.  It's pretty simple.

Um... how many different formulations of Diesel are there?  How about Kerosene?
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« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2006, 05:13:35 PM »

Little Raven, I believe, nailed the real reason the oil companies haven't bothered to really try to build any new refineries in that last post of theirs.  That's what I was thinking, but couldn't figure out how to explain it that well.

Basically, there's no profit motivation for the oil companies to build any refineries.  As long as they're making ridiculous profits off of the current oil production, and higher production would result in lower prices, then it's simply more economically feasible for the oil companies from a pure profit perspective (capitalism/free market at work) to stick with what they have and just charge more due to "limited supplies".

Instead, they manage to get shills to continue to claim that it's the environmentalists who are preventing them from building refineries, since about half the nation is always willing to buy into that particular myth.
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« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2006, 08:14:01 PM »

Do you think oil industry profits have always been this lucrative?   They haven't.    



It takes years to build a refinery.    With profits unpredictable they way they were in the 1990's, is it any wonder we have a shortage of them now?   They would have had to have started building these refineries BEFORE the current consistent rise in oil prices.[/url]
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« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2006, 08:35:39 PM »

i dont know that graph is pretty damning.  i was aware that the 1990s saw some record lows in oil prices and that the industry was struggling - however i wasnt aware that at the low point of that "struggle" the industry was still pulling down 10 BILLION dollar profits.  wow.

if all industries required better than 10 billion in profits at the low point, and upwards of 6 percent returns to invest, our stores would look like soviet russias and capitalism would have been dead a long time ago
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