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Author Topic: [RP] Hilary Clinton = Political Suicide?  (Read 3898 times)
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Knightshade Dragon
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« on: July 21, 2005, 05:53:07 PM »

So since Hilary jumped up to 'protect the children' and bent the ESRB over her knee, does this spell the end of the youth vote for her?  Has she single handedly hobbled her own political career?  Discuss...
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 05:58:55 PM »

The only people it'll really affect are the people who already hate her... hate her to death.
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 06:18:04 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
So since Hilary jumped up to 'protect the children' and bent the ESRB over her knee, does this spell the end of the youth vote for her?  Has she single handedly hobbled her own political career?  Discuss...

I don't think it will matter if it's an isolated incident - we've got another two or three years before anything she does makes any real impact in the election race.... an eternity in politics.  Besides, this perceived move Hillary is making towards the middle isn't really fooling anyone... democrats and republicans alike.
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2005, 06:23:44 PM »

Agreed. Isn't her Senate term up this year and she's up for re-election?

Also, anything she says is pretty much horseshit regardless. Very much like her husband in the sense that I know they're lying because their lips are moving. smile But nothing of any real consequence will happen with Hillary until mid to late next year at the earliest as she preps for 2008.
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2005, 06:46:18 PM »

Quote
Also, anything she says is pretty much horseshit regardless. Very much like her husband in the sense that I know they're lying because their lips are moving.



Funny thing, same can be said about Bush...and most other politicians.  Lying is a trait amongst them, don't limit it to just the Clintons.
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 09:52:47 PM »

Quote from: "Qbert"
Quote
Also, anything she says is pretty much horseshit regardless. Very much like her husband in the sense that I know they're lying because their lips are moving.



Funny thing, same can be said about Bush...and most other politicians.  Lying is a trait amongst them, don't limit it to just the Clintons.

Yeah, but the Clintons have it down to an art form smile
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2005, 10:09:54 PM »

If Hillary is the best candidate the Democrats can muster in 2008... well, it'd be really frickin' sad.
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2005, 10:38:48 PM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Quote from: "Qbert"
Quote
Also, anything she says is pretty much horseshit regardless. Very much like her husband in the sense that I know they're lying because their lips are moving.



Funny thing, same can be said about Bush...and most other politicians.  Lying is a trait amongst them, don't limit it to just the Clintons.

Yeah, but the Clintons have it down to an art form smile


If you believe it.
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 11:28:22 PM »

I'm a gamer and I'd vote for Hilary.  She certainly couldn't be any worse than what we've had in the past as President.

I would've voted for Elizabeth Dole if she had made it.

In fact, now that I think about it, ANY woman that runs on either the Repub or Demo ticket for President will get  my vote guaranteed.  I'm THAT desperate to see some kind of change in our nation's mentality.

In terms of this particular GTA issue, I fault the company for putting out the game without fully disclosing the contents.  Whether or not your employees do it on the sly, the company that sends that game out is ultimately responsible for it.  Hilary is obviously making an attempt to show that Demos have morals too.

It doesn't bug me because as long as certain types of games sell, they will continue to be made and sold.  That's the American way.
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2005, 12:02:16 AM »

I dont see anything wrong with what she is saying exactly.  After all, the ESRB is supposed to cover these things, so telling them they need to live up to the task isnt exactly a big problem.  Rockstar fucked up by leaving it in; I'll admit that, and I'm one of the GTA series' biggest fanboiz.

I do find it kind of silly in a strategic sense, in that the Republicans are doing such an absolutely fabulous job of fucking up, be it the economy, or health care, or social security, or running the country, or jobs, or the war on terror, or public schools, or funding law enforcement, or a million other issues.  Given all of that, the timing of it seems kind of silly; why grab headlines on this, when you could gracefully allow Karl Rove's flagrant treason to grab the headlines?  

But I suppose another point of view is having her 'steal their thunder', in the sense that this is a legitimate family-concerned issue in the way that Terri Schaivo was not.  In that sense, it's actually a great move.
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2005, 12:17:31 AM »

Another thread about Hillary Clinton, another taste of simmering bile heated by nothing except formless innuendo about some vague impropriety.  Millions and millions of dollars have been spent behind the scenes to derail any presidential hopes Hillary might have -- I really would have expected complaints of some actual substance by now.

Knightshade Dragon didn't answer me in the previous thread, so I'm going to ask again here: specifically what is it about Hillary Clinton that would make you flee the country if she were to be elected?  I've watched many of the things I was most proud of in this country systematically disassembled by the Bush administration, but I've *never* considered running away as a response.  Would someone care to fill me in on what makes Hillary Clinton more destructive than a culture of fear-mongering,  stonewalling, bottomless deficit spending, treasonous levels of profiteering, anti-environmentalism, anti-sex education, anti-*any* education, and blatant, blatant dishonesty?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2005, 01:36:52 AM »

Okay, that reads as being more combative than I intended.  Instead of being aggressive, I'm much more frustrated with the fact that everybody *talks* about how horrible Hillary Clinton is, but nobody seems willing or able to detail anything she's actually done to deserve this grief.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2005, 02:45:03 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Given all of that, the timing of it seems kind of silly; why grab headlines on this, when you could gracefully allow Karl Rove's flagrant treason to grab the headlines?


Because there wasn't any crime committed.  There wasn't any purgery.  She wasn't a covert op, she wasn't overseas, and she wasn't back from that in over 5 years.  Sorry, but Rove is a non-issue, no matter how the press tries to spin it.
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2005, 03:04:29 AM »

Quote from: "Graham"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Given all of that, the timing of it seems kind of silly; why grab headlines on this, when you could gracefully allow Karl Rove's flagrant treason to grab the headlines?


Because there wasn't any crime committed.  There wasn't any purgery.  She wasn't a covert op, she wasn't overseas, and she wasn't back from that in over 5 years.  Sorry, but Rove is a non-issue, no matter how the press tries to spin it.


Uh no. If you want to over-generalize, blatantly ignore plenty of information that would indicate that this is still an open issue and one that requires investigation to its conclusion before we can truly know what happened and what went on, then I am just going to respond to you with the same lack of any sort of informed thought-

Uhh...no, you're wrong.
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2005, 04:34:59 AM »

Quote from: "Rage"
Quote from: "Graham"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Given all of that, the timing of it seems kind of silly; why grab headlines on this, when you could gracefully allow Karl Rove's flagrant treason to grab the headlines?


Because there wasn't any crime committed.  There wasn't any purgery.  She wasn't a covert op, she wasn't overseas, and she wasn't back from that in over 5 years.  Sorry, but Rove is a non-issue, no matter how the press tries to spin it.


Uh no. If you want to over-generalize, blatantly ignore plenty of information that would indicate that this is still an open issue and one that requires investigation to its conclusion before we can truly know what happened and what went on, then I am just going to respond to you with the same lack of any sort of informed thought-

Uhh...no, you're wrong.


Um, then how come the media stated it their brief to the court that the reporters shouldn't have to give away their sources because no crime had been committed.

Quote
In this case, there exists ample evidence on the public record to cast serious doubt as to whether a crime has even been committed under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act (the "Act") in the investigation underlying the attempts to secure testimony from Miller and Cooper.  If in fact no crime under the Act has been committed, then any need to compel Miller and Cooper to reveal their confidential sources should evaporate.


So it would see that the press (36 news organizations that were a part of the brief) thought that no crime had been committed four months ago, but now those same groups are on a witch hunt.  If there is ample evidence that they believe that no crime was committed, then Valerie Plame was a known CIA employee.

BTW, since you are probably interested, here is the brief in .pdf form.

http://www.bakerlaw.com/files/tbl_s10News/FileUpload44/10159/Amici%20Brief%20032305%20(Final).PDF
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2005, 04:41:17 AM »

Quote
Because there wasn't any crime committed. There wasn't any purgery. She wasn't a covert op, she wasn't overseas, and she wasn't back from that in over 5 years. Sorry, but Rove is a non-issue, no matter how the press tries to spin it.


First of all, I think we can all agree that the Bush administration has set an all-time low standard of decency if a person actually needs to be convicted of a federal crime before he will be fired.

Secondly, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan went to the press, said that he had personally spoken with Karl Rove and President Bush, and could say with absolute certainty that Rove had no part of the Plame leak.  That turns out to be untrue.  Therefore, George W. Bush, Karl Rove, Scott McClellan, or some combination of the three deliberately told bald-faced lies to the American people about this issue.  Sorry, but that's a *big* issue, no matter how the right tries to spin it.

Thirdly, on October 7th, 2003, George W. Bush spoke to the press at the end of a cabinet meeting and warned everyone that we might never find out the identity of the Plame leaker.  He, as President of the United States, was completely helpless to find out which of the high-ranking administration officials had done this.  As he said this, Karl Rove was literally standing within arm's reach, and his silence has cost American tax payers *millions* of dollars in investigation costs.  Either Bush is the most impotent, out-of-touch President this country has ever had, or he was criminally disinterested in getting to the truth of this matter.

Fourthly, as the Washington Post proved in their July 21st article, Valerie Plame *was* a covert operative whose identity was a secret until she was outed by Robert Novak.  Her area of expertise was the non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction -- an issue I think most Americans would agree is rather important -- and revealing her identity may have compromised every contact she ever worked with for the CIA.  Beyond that, the Bush administration has sent a clear message to our intelligence community that if they produce any findings which aren't in line with what the administration wants to hear, their secret identities are basically forfeit.

Graham, in order for you to support the Bush administration on this issue, you basically have to agree that the American government has no standard of decency, that you personally don't mind being lied to, that the current President of the United States has all the situational awareness of Helen Keller, and that it's okay to compromise national security in the pursuit of political payback against people who tell the truth.

You're *way* out there on this one.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2005, 05:11:40 AM »

She is a democrat in New York, name 1 republican with any kind of shot of winning her seat.
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2005, 05:50:59 AM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
First of all, I think we can all agree that the Bush administration has set an all-time low standard of decency if a person actually needs to be convicted of a federal crime before he will be fired.


What's amusing is when I stated back in 2000 that the Bush's swim in a culture of lawlessness, people laughed at me like I was some kind of extremist.  Thus far, ALL my predictions have come true.

Prediction- the Plame incident may very well be the jizzy dress which brings down Bush.

I have to say, however, that the spin of "The press said a crime wasn't committed" was a new source of unintentional comedy!  Good thing the Justice Department is looking into it rather than the press, that's for sure.

==

At any rate, I'm quite sure the ESRB is kind of pissed with Rockstar as well over this, since it is making the industry look bad.  But in their defense, it WAS disabled.  It will be interesting to know just how much liability a company assumes by not purging their game of anything questionable.  Sadly, Im envisioning this as further stifling any kind of non-kid-oriented content ever being included in games.
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2005, 05:52:44 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
First of all, I think we can all agree that the Bush administration has set an all-time low standard of decency if a person actually needs to be convicted of a federal crime before he will be fired.


What's amusing is when I stated back in 2000 that the Bush's swim in a culture of lawlessness, people laughed at me like I was some kind of extremist.  Thus far, ALL my predictions have come true.


ALL OF THEM? EVERY SINGLE ONE? Are you sure you weren't Nostradamus in a past life? Do you have documentation? Let's take this to a publisher!

 retard
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2005, 05:58:57 AM »

Quote from: "Rage"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
First of all, I think we can all agree that the Bush administration has set an all-time low standard of decency if a person actually needs to be convicted of a federal crime before he will be fired.


What's amusing is when I stated back in 2000 that the Bush's swim in a culture of lawlessness, people laughed at me like I was some kind of extremist.  Thus far, ALL my predictions have come true.


ALL OF THEM? EVERY SINGLE ONE? Are you sure you weren't Nostradamus in a past life? Do you have documentation? Let's take this to a publisher!

 retard


Actually, the only one which didn't come true was me thinking the price of gas would go down.  At the time I didn't see the extent to which the Bush's and the oil companies benefit from high gas prices.

Sadly, the post was on GG.  If any posts circa 1999/2000 still exist, you could likely find it posted as "tony72".  I believe it was discussing a then republican primary candidate Bush.

For example, I predicted-

1.  at least one war
2.  mass joblessness
3.  terrible economy
4.  anti-Americanism at an all time high
5.  basic civil unrest here in the USA

It really wasn't all that hard, to be honest.  I was just predicting more of the same from Bush Part 1.

However, even my pessimism didn't predict the extent to which Bush would destroy this country.  His plundering/squandering is just so off the chart, that I'm concerned the USA will never recover from it.
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2005, 06:04:34 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Rage"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
First of all, I think we can all agree that the Bush administration has set an all-time low standard of decency if a person actually needs to be convicted of a federal crime before he will be fired.


What's amusing is when I stated back in 2000 that the Bush's swim in a culture of lawlessness, people laughed at me like I was some kind of extremist.  Thus far, ALL my predictions have come true.


ALL OF THEM? EVERY SINGLE ONE? Are you sure you weren't Nostradamus in a past life? Do you have documentation? Let's take this to a publisher!

 retard


Actually, the only one which didn't come true was me thinking the price of gas would go down.  At the time I didn't see the extent to which the Bush's and the oil companies benefit from high gas prices.

Sadly, the post was on GG.  If any posts circa 1999/2000 still exist, you could likely find it posted as "tony72".  I believe it was discussing a then republican primary candidate Bush.

For example, I predicted-

1.  at least one war
2.  mass joblessness
3.  terrible economy
4.  anti-Americanism at an all time high
5.  basic civil unrest here in the USA

It really wasn't all that hard, to be honest.  I was just predicting more of the same from Bush Part 1.


You will find great, great dissent over #s 2 and 3, as i am sure you aware...#5 seems a tad exaggerated, the others I think you got right.
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2005, 06:08:49 AM »

#2 is dead on.  There are fewer people employed today than when GWB took office, and the median salary is far, far lower.

#3 is dead on, especially if you view the steady decline as a trend (as most do), rather than a 5-year long 'adjustment'.  The only Bush Boom we had was on 9/11.
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2005, 08:02:31 AM »

Quote from: "Semaj"
She is a democrat in New York, name 1 republican with any kind of shot of winning her seat.


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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2005, 08:12:36 AM »

It doesn't matter if Hillary Clinton is elected President, because Corporate America wins, either way.

"There is no way to legislate against reality. Outsourcing will continue,"

Nice to see her choosing foreign workers over American workers.
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2005, 03:14:40 PM »

For all the Valerie Plame/Karl Rove nonsense, can someone answer me this: why is a New York Times reporter sitting in JAIL right now for protecting a source involved in this case?  Or is this just not of any significance whatsoever?

By the way, Raven, Rudy Giuliani would have been my answer as well.  He'd smoke Hillary for that seat.

Mike
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2005, 03:28:09 PM »

Quote from: "pr0ner"
For all the Valerie Plame/Karl Rove nonsense, can someone answer me this: why is a New York Times reporter sitting in JAIL right now for protecting a source involved in this case?  Or is this just not of any significance whatsoever?

By the way, Raven, Rudy Giuliani would have been my answer as well.  He'd smoke Hillary for that seat.

Mike


He wasn't smoking her at the time he dropped out. In fact it was pretty much a dead heat as I recall.
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2005, 03:37:56 PM »

Guys, a woman just isn't electable in this country yet.  The only way we'd see a female president is if both parties ran female candidates, and that won't be happening anytime soon.

I don't mean to be sexist, but this country just isn't mature enough/ready to get over the Old White Man tradition of presidents yet.  Indeed, I'd say it'd take a black male president to shake up the tradition enough to make female presidents an option.
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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2005, 03:43:46 PM »

Quote
Knightshade Dragon didn't answer me in the previous thread, so I'm going to ask again here: specifically what is it about Hillary Clinton that would make you flee the country if she were to be elected? I've watched many of the things I was most proud of in this country systematically disassembled by the Bush administration, but I've *never* considered running away as a response. Would someone care to fill me in on what makes Hillary Clinton more destructive than a culture of fear-mongering, stonewalling, bottomless deficit spending, treasonous levels of profiteering, anti-environmentalism, anti-sex education, anti-*any* education, and blatant, blatant dishonesty?

Sorry for missing that.  

Here is the thing.  
I am a big believer in the power of the democratic system.  I believe in making sure that people have a fair shot if they work hard for it. (No, not the commie 'everyone should be equal' stance)  I believe that your politicians should be honest and not locked into shady land deals and bullshit tapdancing about the definition of the word 'is'.  This goes double for the President.  You also have to question the sanity of anyone who spends millions if not hundreds of millions for a job that pays less than a high-end CEO.  slywink

I believe that the government should stay the hell out of my personal life.  I'll watch what I want to watch, listen to what I want to listen to, and play whatever games I want to play.  I don't need anyone protecting me from myself - I'm an adult, get off my ass.  Stop telling me how horrible it was to see Janet's tit-shield.  Fine her and let it go.  We don't need the holy crucade against all things 'indecent'.  Your indecent and my indecent are two very very VERY different things.  Grow a thicker skin and grow up - no wonder our kids need therapy...yea, boobs are shameful.  

I believe that the person who revealed the identities of the undercover agents should be shot.  Its treason.  If you look up the word treason, it'll show these guys.  Our government is playing patty-cakes with these asshats instead of busting their kneecaps.  You want more bombings here?  Keep compromising our agents.  If you aren't the kneecapping type, then its time for some sodium penathol and a trip to the basement to have a little chat.  

I believe that corporate responsibility is everyone's responsibility.  How long ago was the Enron and MCI scandles?  How long does it take to get some friggin justice around here?  How about all of the people who lost EVERYTHING?  What about their needs?  Meanwhile, we let criminals of the highest caliber run free instead of putting them in the federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.  This happened under Hillary's watch and I don't hear her screaming to the high goddamned heavens for these people's heads.  Once again, big money and big companies means different rules.  

In addition to ALL of this, name me ONE thing that Hillary has done for us.   Is there anything of any significance?  She is married to Captain Humidor, but other than that she seems completely worthless.  How about getting the right person for the job, not just somebody who has been proxy to the spotlight, hasn't spent enough time doing it for real, and has plenty of unresolved skeletons in her own closet?    Don't think that person exists?  Bullshit...I've never done anything treasonous or as lecherous as our politicians, so there has to be a guy out there like me that just has political experience instead of Network Engineering.  Find him, put his ass in the big seat.  

I'm just tired.  Unfortunately its not just Hillary though...more than likely, whomever we put in the WH will be just as shadey as the next person.  I love America, I love what we stand for...unfortunately our leadership has a different agenda.  The lazy and complacent public is allowing our country to come apart at the seams and it makes me very sad.
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2005, 04:18:11 PM »

Quote
She is married to Captain Humidor



 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2005, 06:10:08 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
So since Hilary jumped up to 'protect the children' and bent the ESRB over her knee, does this spell the end of the youth vote for her?  Has she single handedly hobbled her own political career?  Discuss...


You speak of a "youth vote" as if it actually exists.

Sorry, but the gamers don't exactly have much political clout.  The reason why politicians get all in such a tizzy whenever anything likes this comes up is because that's what gets them votes.
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« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2005, 06:37:10 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote
Knightshade Dragon didn't answer me in the previous thread, so I'm going to ask again here: specifically what is it about Hillary Clinton that would make you flee the country if she were to be elected? I've watched many of the things I was most proud of in this country systematically disassembled by the Bush administration, but I've *never* considered running away as a response. Would someone care to fill me in on what makes Hillary Clinton more destructive than a culture of fear-mongering, stonewalling, bottomless deficit spending, treasonous levels of profiteering, anti-environmentalism, anti-sex education, anti-*any* education, and blatant, blatant dishonesty?

Sorry for missing that.  

Here is the thing.  
I am a big believer in the power of the democratic system.  I believe in making sure that people have a fair shot if they work hard for it. (No, not the commie 'everyone should be equal' stance)  I believe that your politicians should be honest and not locked into shady land deals and bullshit tapdancing about the definition of the word 'is'.  This goes double for the President.  You also have to question the sanity of anyone who spends millions if not hundreds of millions for a job that pays less than a high-end CEO.  slywink

I believe that the government should stay the hell out of my personal life.  I'll watch what I want to watch, listen to what I want to listen to, and play whatever games I want to play.  I don't need anyone protecting me from myself - I'm an adult, get off my ass.  Stop telling me how horrible it was to see Janet's tit-shield.  Fine her and let it go.  We don't need the holy crucade against all things 'indecent'.  Your indecent and my indecent are two very very VERY different things.  Grow a thicker skin and grow up - no wonder our kids need therapy...yea, boobs are shameful.  

I believe that the person who revealed the identities of the undercover agents should be shot.  Its treason.  If you look up the word treason, it'll show these guys.  Our government is playing patty-cakes with these asshats instead of busting their kneecaps.  You want more bombings here?  Keep compromising our agents.  If you aren't the kneecapping type, then its time for some sodium penathol and a trip to the basement to have a little chat.  

I believe that corporate responsibility is everyone's responsibility.  How long ago was the Enron and MCI scandles?  How long does it take to get some friggin justice around here?  How about all of the people who lost EVERYTHING?  What about their needs?  Meanwhile, we let criminals of the highest caliber run free instead of putting them in the federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.  This happened under Hillary's watch and I don't hear her screaming to the high goddamned heavens for these people's heads.  Once again, big money and big companies means different rules.  

In addition to ALL of this, name me ONE thing that Hillary has done for us.   Is there anything of any significance?  She is married to Captain Humidor, but other than that she seems completely worthless.  How about getting the right person for the job, not just somebody who has been proxy to the spotlight, hasn't spent enough time doing it for real, and has plenty of unresolved skeletons in her own closet?    Don't think that person exists?  Bullshit...I've never done anything treasonous or as lecherous as our politicians, so there has to be a guy out there like me that just has political experience instead of Network Engineering.  Find him, put his ass in the big seat.  

I'm just tired.  Unfortunately its not just Hillary though...more than likely, whomever we put in the WH will be just as shadey as the next person.  I love America, I love what we stand for...unfortunately our leadership has a different agenda.  The lazy and complacent public is allowing our country to come apart at the seams and it makes me very sad.


Just to be fair, your post reads like a harsh rebuke of the current administration as much if not more than it reads as an attack against Hillary. If that was your intent, or your intent was to sort of lump them together, I am with you-but I see no more harm coming from Hillary in the WH as I do having to sit through another 3 years of Bush II.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2005, 07:09:58 PM »

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I am a big believer in the power of the democratic system. I believe in making sure that people have a fair shot if they work hard for it. (No, not the commie 'everyone should be equal' stance) I believe that your politicians should be honest and not locked into shady land deals and bullshit tapdancing about the definition of the word 'is'. This goes double for the President. You also have to question the sanity of anyone who spends millions if not hundreds of millions for a job that pays less than a high-end CEO.


I'm a big believer in the value of evidence and the power of our justice system.  Even beyond the fact that a full-blown federal investigation was unable to provide any evidence that the Clintons had behaved inproperly in the Whitewater affair, Richard Mellon Scaife and the American Prospect spent millions of dollars purusing the Clintons and failed to find even one shred of credible evidence against them.  When people spend millions of dollars trying to smear someone and fail misserably, that strikes me as significant.

I don't like the fact that Bill Clinton openly and admittedly lied about his extra-marital affair with Monica Lewinsky.  In a credibility fight, however, I much perfer the team that lies about private affairs over the team that lies about every conceivable aspect of our foreign and domestic policy.  Between the Downing Street memos, the reports from our own intelligence organizations, and the statements of intelligence officers who have resigned in protest over this adminstration's behavior, only the most blindly partisan Bush supporter continues to argue that the case for invading Iraq was pitched honestly, and those are lies which have cost thousands upon thousands of lives.

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I believe that the government should stay the hell out of my personal life. I'll watch what I want to watch, listen to what I want to listen to, and play whatever games I want to play. I don't need anyone protecting me from myself - I'm an adult, get off my ass. Stop telling me how horrible it was to see Janet's tit-shield. Fine her and let it go. We don't need the holy crucade against all things 'indecent'. Your indecent and my indecent are two very very VERY different things. Grow a thicker skin and grow up - no wonder our kids need therapy...yea, boobs are shameful.


This sounds like a compelling reason to dislike Michael Powell, The National Institute on Media and the Family, or the Parents Television Council (which is single-handedly responsible for 99% of the complaints filed with the FCC).  I'm unclear what it has to do with Hillary Clinton.

While Congressman Leland Yee and the NIMF have blasted the ESRB and tried to undercut the credibility of that rating system, Senator Clinton has been far more measured in her reponse, calling only for an investigation into the matter.  That hardly seems like a basis to flee the country if she's elected president.

By comparison, President Bush's crusade for "decency" has lead to a reduction in comprehensive sex education, which in turn can be directly correlated to a rise in the abortion rate and an increase in the percentage of teenagers who are likely to engage in risky sexual behavior.  I find that sort of federally mandated "decency" to be much more concerning than a senator who raises questions about the appropriateness of a single videogame and then praises the ESRB when it responds promptly to the situation.

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I believe that corporate responsibility is everyone's responsibility. How long ago was the Enron and MCI scandles? How long does it take to get some friggin justice around here? How about all of the people who lost EVERYTHING? What about their needs? Meanwhile, we let criminals of the highest caliber run free instead of putting them in the federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. This happened under Hillary's watch and I don't hear her screaming to the high goddamned heavens for these people's heads. Once again, big money and big companies means different rules.


The Enron scandal broke in November of 2001, after George W. Bush took office.  If you're suggesting that there was sufficient evidence available prior to 2000 that the Clinton administration should have somehow known about Enron and put a stop to their criminal activities -- a conjecture I do not agree with -- it seems to me that you could hold the Bush administration to the same standard and blame them for not taking on Enron as soon as they arrived in office.

If failing to condemn Enron or MCI Worldcom loudly enough renders a single senator completely unelectable for office, what does that say about the sitting President of the United States who offered nothing but vague platitudes before changing the subject?

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In addition to ALL of this, name me ONE thing that Hillary has done for us. Is there anything of any significance? She is married to Captain Humidor, but other than that she seems completely worthless. How about getting the right person for the job, not just somebody who has been proxy to the spotlight, hasn't spent enough time doing it for real, and has plenty of unresolved skeletons in her own closet? Don't think that person exists? Bullshit...I've never done anything treasonous or as lecherous as our politicians, so there has to be a guy out there like me that just has political experience instead of Network Engineering. Find him, put his ass in the big seat.


At this point, I would support the presidential campaign of a ham sandwich because at least the sandwich would stop doing active damage to this country, its political process, and its reputation around the world.  It's a sad thing to realize that complete and total inaction would be a substantial step up from our current predicament, but when every program, policy, and position of the Bush adminstration is an unmitigated disaster, I just can't imagine how Hillary Clinton could *possibly* be a stem down.

So, at the end of this post, we now know that if Hillary Clinton is elected president, you will flee the country because:

1) She and her husband were once accused of some ill-defined impropriety by partisan political opponents.

2) Her husband was demonstrably dishonest on one issue.

3) She wants to know how explicit sexual content got into Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas before taking any specific action.

4) You don't know much about her accomplishments.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but these do not strike me as compelling reasons to even vote against her, much less move to a different country if she were to be elected.  George W. Bush is guilty to the N-th degree of every one of those points, and if I didn't run away to a differnt country to get away from him, I'm sure as hell not going to run away from Hillary Clinton.  If these are the greatest criticisms anyone can muster against Senator Clinton, she may be the most electable politician in American history.

Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough response to my question.  I may not agree with your conclusions, but I appreciate that you took the time to type up your thoughts.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2005, 08:24:58 PM »

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Between the Downing Street memos, the reports from our own intelligence organizations, and the statements of intelligence officers who have resigned in protest over this adminstration's behavior, only the most blindly partisan Bush supporter continues to argue that the case for invading Iraq was pitched honestly, and those are lies which have cost thousands upon thousands of lives.
Oh I was behind the war when it was a war against WMDs.  I would have been sold if we could have gone to war to stop the genocide by SH's son.  We have needed an exit 'strategery' now that we've discovered that we were mistaken.  You'll get no argument from me.

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Whitewater affair
Knowing where to hide the bodies is a good skill.  I'm not buying that this is the only skeleton+closet package out there, and just because we couldn't reliably prove it doesn't make it less true.  Remember, the best we could get some of the most powerful mobsters in the world on was tax violation despite the ordered hits and murder.  Lack of proof does not = lack of guilt.

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In a credibility fight, however, I much perfer the team that lies about private affairs over the team that lies about every conceivable aspect of our foreign and domestic policy.
I chose neither. I'd like an honest person in the white house.  Hell, can we even put that bride in a white dress anymore?  

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Michael Powell
Michael Powell is the neighbor's kid.  He just can't be related to Colon Powell.  That guy was enemy #1 of free speech and PTC is easily #2.  

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While Congressman Leland Yee and the NIMF have blasted the ESRB and tried to undercut the credibility of that rating system, Senator Clinton has been far more measured in her reponse, calling only for an investigation into the matter.
Is an investigation necessary?  The ESRB serves absolutely no function whatsoever.  Parents don't look, kids don't care, and they aren't being enforced with proper restrictions.  Ok, so the game is AO, explain to me how this is more than political posturing.  And really, is this our major focus of concern?  Guess we solved that poverty/homeless/war/immigration/tax/etc. thing and this is next on the list.  Its a sham.

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President Bush's crusade for "decency"
PB is either one of the most brilliant saboteurs of the American right to chose or a complete idiot.  Either way, we lose.  Put plainly, I don't want PB or Hillary in my business.  You want to make a difference?  Do the right thing...make it mandatory.  This investigation accomplished nothing and cost the taxpayers money.  And why praise the ESRB? They fell under the pressure...they didn't do anything special.

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If failing to condemn Enron or MCI Worldcom loudly enough renders a single senator completely unelectable for office, what does that say about the sitting President of the United States who offered nothing but vague platitudes before changing the subject?
I think it makes them both guilty.  These people are put in power to protect us from companies like Enron and MCI.  When they let those people slip off the collar, somebody didn't do their job.  If Bush was an employee of a normal job he'd have been fired for incompetence.

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I would support the presidential campaign of a ham sandwich
And maybe that is my issue here.  What we have is horrible and I don't see Hillary offering a great deal more.  I don't find what we have or the possible candidate to be desirable.

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Her husband was demonstrably dishonest on one issue.
Her husband is guilty for more than that.  Lets not forget who sent the CIA to train Osama and had multiple chances to blast him from the Earth and didn't.   Lets not pretend that she is in any way disconnected from her husband - he'll wield power by proxy and that is not a good thing.

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You don't know much about her accomplishments

I'm ready to be educated.  Name some.  I'm not going to trade the villiage idiot for a lame duck.

At the end of the day I just feel very disarmed as an American.  I don't feel like I have any power with my government and I don't see that they have our interests in mind.  Would I leave the country?  Perhaps that is hasty.  Would I consider it?  Obviously.

Perhaps there is something we can agree on?  I think both parties are so far to the damned left and right that they've lost sight of the center...where you and I live.
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2005, 08:46:39 PM »

As popular as Ralph is her ein NEw York, I dont see him taking the seat from Hillary. Since, it would be a step in the right direction and politics has proven those never occur.
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2005, 02:55:36 PM »

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In a credibility fight, however, I much perfer the team that lies about private affairs over the team that lies about every conceivable aspect of our foreign and domestic policy.


I chose neither. I'd like an honest person in the white house. Hell, can we even put that bride in a white dress anymore?


When your submarine is taking on water, you don't take time to sit down with the officers and brainstorm for ideas on designing a perfect new unsinkable submarine -- you do anything in your power to cap the damage and end the dying.

I find it *impressive* that in a three-hundred page partisan attack against Hillary Clinton, the best things Ed Klein could come up with were "scandals" that were proven to be fictional at the time they occurred, and the implication that she's a lesbian because she has some gay friends.  That said, Clinton isn't my idea of an perfect president either because, if nothing else, so many people are consumed with an unfounded loathing for her that she has little hope of healing this country's sharp divisions.

But she doesn't have to be perfect.  She just has to not do damage so we can start figuring out how to fix this mess.  Yeah, that's a low bar to set, but it's still a step up.

We can't hope to fix Iraq until we have a government that's capable of admitting there's a problem.  

We can't find the 8.8 billion dollars missing from the war effort until we have a congress willing to investigate the issue.  

We can't gauge the damage done to our public schools by the No Child Left Behind Act until the act is at least properly funded.

We can't pitch solutions for the imminent collapse of Medicare until we have an administration that's willing to talk about the issue.

We can't address increasing levels of mercury poisoning in our environment until we have a government that trusts *science* enough to pay attention.

We can't move beyond our dependence on oil until we're willing to pursue an energy policy that's based less on conquest and profiteering and more on national security and energy efficiency.

We can't start making things better until we get rid of the people who are determined to dismantle the system we need to use.  I'd love to see another FDR who could come into office and ram through legislation to start fixing all the problems of his predecessor, too, but realistically, I think we need to take what we can get and work our way upwards from there.

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The ESRB serves absolutely no function whatsoever. Parents don't look, kids don't care, and they aren't being enforced with proper restrictions. Ok, so the game is AO, explain to me how this is more than political posturing. And really, is this our major focus of concern? Guess we solved that poverty/homeless/war/immigration/tax/etc. thing and this is next on the list. Its a sham.


I don't think I agree that the ESRB is useless, but I do agree that this San Andreas / Hot Coffee issue nothing more than a feel-good political move which, at best, is distracting attention away from much more important things.  I'm just willing to forgive a little political posturing on the campaign trail if it means tackling some important issues after the victory.

-Autistic Angel
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2005, 07:02:01 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Lets not forget who sent the CIA to train Osama ...


Wrong president. So it seem that you're the one that forget who sent the CIA to train Osama. Not President Clinton era, but back at Reagan era.
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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2005, 11:06:23 PM »

Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Lets not forget who sent the CIA to train Osama ...


Wrong president. So it seem that you're the one that forget who sent the CIA to train Osama. Not President Clinton era, but back at Reagan era.


And Saddam, and Noriega, and Pinochet, etc etc etc.
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