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Author Topic: [RP] Bush says "Not leaving"  (Read 1538 times)
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Knightshade Dragon
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« on: November 30, 2005, 08:20:26 PM »

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/30/us.iraq/index.html

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"To all who wear the uniform, I make you this pledge: America will not run in the face of car bombers and assassins so long as I am your commander-in-chief."


Thoughts? I'm interested to hear people's opinion on the state of things...
Specifically - is it time to go?  More to do?   Something else?

Try to keep the conversation civil please.
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2005, 08:25:00 PM »

As predicted, Four More Years = four more years.

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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2005, 08:40:02 PM »

Well, as somebody who is ex-military I can say that I've never seen a mission plan without parameters.  We have no clear cut strategy on how we will 'win', or what 'winning' entails.  How can we reach goals if we don't have any?
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2005, 08:40:59 PM »

Regardless of how we got there, and despite needing clear goals for withdrawel/victory, I stand behind our troops and feel we need to support them in this.  We need to stay the course for the sake of our military personel.
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2005, 08:47:14 PM »

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for supporting our troops, but how can we support them in their mission if their mission isn't defined?
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2005, 09:17:56 PM »

Former Military myself  and this type of "War"  isn't winnable imo

The people that hate us  will always be able to recruit more matyrs and dimwitts.   The only thing we as Americans see is the casualties.   The news hardly ever report how many casualties we inflict but as always quick to report how many Americans have been killed by a car boomb.


This is a clandestine war.  The only way we win is with a small  cells to strike at thier cells.  I'm so reminded of that movie with John Travolta and Halle Berry
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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2005, 09:18:00 PM »

The mission began poorly once the rioting started, and was fully doomed as soon as Bremer fired ALL the military and police forces.  And didnt bother replacing them.  With anything.

Then they tried to 'shock and awe' the businesses there, and essentially sell the entire country to multinational corporations.  Obviously, the Iraqi business owners were not big fans of this strategy.  And more obviously, they started contributing money to the insurgents.

Nobody plans to fail, they just fail to plan.
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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2005, 09:37:41 PM »

Way back when(2001), when the 'War on Terror' was declared, you know the "With us or Them" declaration,   no nationally agreed upon definition of 'terrorist' was ever specified.  Forget about internationally agreed upon.  For instance, what exactly makes one a terrorist instead of a rebel?

That logically leads to alot of problematic areas.  Such as people being imprisoned on vague accusations, not even actual charges.

Also, it leads to entering into actions, military or otherwise, with no actual end strategy.  How can you have a plan for the end of a conflict when you can't exactly say who you are fighting?  If you can't say you who are fighting, how would you know when they are defeated?  In fact, unless you know exactly who you are fighting and why, how would you even know what constitutes 'defeating' them?

So, the answer is "Since you can't know, just stay on course and keep on the same path you are on now.  It HAS to end somewhere, sometime, right?  When it does, just say 'THIS is where I meant for us to go all along!' and declare victory.".

edited: for clarity
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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2005, 09:49:35 PM »

It's hard to stay the course when you are fighting 'somebody' so they don't do 'something' to 'somebody', 'somewhere'.

For the hundreds of billions Bush has spent, I would have rather seen a national health care strategy implimented.  It probably would have been cheaper, too, and saved far more lives.
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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2005, 09:57:37 PM »

Did you guys really want to lure me into a political discussion on your nice clean gaming website?  slywink

The goal for victory is clear:    a stable, survivable, and self-substainable democracy in Iraq.     It is also acheivable.    I know many guys there as I am from the home of the 3rd ID here in Savannah.     They tell me directly that leaps and bounds of progress is being made there every day.   They also say that the masses of the population there have absolutely nothing against the soldiers there, and actually bring them baked goods and gifts all the time.     It's a relatively small percentage of people that are causing the problems -- some of them sunni former gov officials, some of them criminals out for financial gain, and some of them genuine terrorists.

We must finish this job so that the Iraqi forces can protect this precious gift of Representative government without our help.    That is when victory will have been achieved.
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2005, 10:20:30 PM »

You've read the National Security Council's document Strategy for Victory in Iraq, right?
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/international/20051130military-text.pdf
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2005, 10:22:16 PM »

Quote from: "msduncan"
Did you guys really want to lure me into a political discussion on your nice clean gaming website?  slywink
I marked it as RP, bring it on.

Quote
The goal for victory is clear:    a stable, survivable, and self-substainable democracy in Iraq.

Sure thing - I can agree with those goals.  Now define what 'stable' means.  That region hasn't been 'stable' by any measure for the last 1000 years.  Survivable?  I'm supposing that this means that the government that has been put in place stays there, but that is an assumption.  Self-sustainment?  How can you test this without leaving to see if they really can sustain themselves?  Also, to what degree?  Just the big cities? My version of being able to self-sustain and yours may be very different - hence we need clear definitions.  

You can't just say "Gaming Trend has a clear goal for victory: to beat IGN, to have more content, and to be self-sufficient."  We'd have to have a plan on HOW to topple McGriddleGNSpy with a line in the sand that says we've accomplished our goal (no, a banner behind me won't suffice).  We'd need to have a metric to measure how much content we have and how much we'd like to have vs. our competition.  A ratio, a number, something.  We'd also have to define what sustaining meant.  Does it mean we have broken even, but everyone still works a second job?  Does it mean we can break even and everyone on staff works in an office building together like a news network?  Does it mean we do the second item, but have xyz in profit to reinvest?  There is a BROAD range of things that would have to be defined before you could call it a plan.  

From what I see, Bush = "Get her!" from Ghostbusters.  Not a brilliant plan, Ray.
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2005, 10:23:46 PM »

Quote from: "Clay"
You've read the National Security Council's document Strategy for Victory in Iraq, right?
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/international/20051130military-text.pdf


Sadly, yes.  It is as vague as any PR piece you might read from any spin firm.
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2005, 10:29:00 PM »

I think Bush is in too far now with iraq with nothing really in place for them to self rule yet. If Bush could be pres 8 more years I still think he'd be in Iraq. Its going to be hard to leave and keep Iraq together.
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2005, 10:43:59 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote from: "msduncan"
Did you guys really want to lure me into a political discussion on your nice clean gaming website?  slywink
I marked it as RP, bring it on.

Quote
The goal for victory is clear:    a stable, survivable, and self-substainable democracy in Iraq.

Sure thing - I can agree with those goals.  Now define what 'stable' means.  That region hasn't been 'stable' by any measure for the last 1000 years.  Survivable?  I'm supposing that this means that the government that has been put in place stays there, but that is an assumption.  Self-sustainment?  How can you test this without leaving to see if they really can sustain themselves?  Also, to what degree?  Just the big cities? My version of being able to self-sustain and yours may be very different - hence we need clear definitions.  

You can't just say "Gaming Trend has a clear goal for victory: to beat IGN, to have more content, and to be self-sufficient."  We'd have to have a plan on HOW to topple McGriddleGNSpy with a line in the sand that says we've accomplished our goal (no, a banner behind me won't suffice).  We'd need to have a metric to measure how much content we have and how much we'd like to have vs. our competition.  A ratio, a number, something.  We'd also have to define what sustaining meant.  Does it mean we have broken even, but everyone still works a second job?  Does it mean we can break even and everyone on staff works in an office building together like a news network?  Does it mean we do the second item, but have xyz in profit to reinvest?  There is a BROAD range of things that would have to be defined before you could call it a plan.  

From what I see, Bush = "Get her!" from Ghostbusters.  Not a brilliant plan, Ray.


Mmmmmmm..... McGriddles......
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2005, 10:56:47 PM »

What we need to do is set a date that we're going to leave, in the next 3 months or so, and leave.  Let Iraq figure it out.  If they want the old regime back, then whatever.  It's their country, let them do what they want.
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2005, 11:09:52 PM »

I have no doubt democracy in Iraq is achievable, in theory it's achievable anywhere in the world...if the people want it.

But when you have 100,000 troops from one country occupying another country, basically teliing those people "You WILL accept democracy dammit!  Otherwise we won't leave.",  I'm not confident that there is any coherent end game planned there.

edit: In short, I get the impression that the REAL game plan consists of "Well, on the bright side, whatever happens, it's happening in Iraq not the US, so who cares?"
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2005, 11:49:20 PM »

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I stand behind our troops and feel we need to support them in this. We need to stay the course for the sake of our military personel.

Great, lets leave them there to die  :roll:   It is time to pull them out, let them come home to their homes, and make a difference here, not in some country that continues to try and kill them, and who doesn't want them.

Why'd we even go in the first place to Iraq?  Oh yeah, some faulty intelligence...
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2005, 01:06:55 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Sadly, yes.  It is as vague as any PR piece you might read from any spin firm.


But it has The Eight Pillars!

Pillar 1: Defeat the terrorists
Pillar 2: Vietnamization
Pillar 3: Write new constitution.   Vote and/or die!
Pillar 4: Profit! (Haliburton only)
Pillar 5: Profit! (now accepting open bids)
Pillar 6: Grant civil rights (for future abuse) and allow frivolous lawsuits
Pillar 7: Remind Syria and Iran "It could happen to you!"
Pillar 8: Send Karl Rove to Iraq to work PR voodoo on Iraqis
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2005, 02:08:50 AM »

Once the Bush administration was forced to admit that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, no involvement in 9/11, and no ties to al Qaeda, the mission in Iraq was revealed to be an attempt at nation building: taking an area of deep ethnic and religious divisions and establishing a peaceful representative democracy.  In order to do this, the United States must train and supply enough Iraqi troops that they can maintain the current level of "peace" and defend the government we've created after we leave.

Democrats have asked how many Iraqi troops will be required, but the Bush administration won't answer.

Democrats have asked how long it takes to train a battalion of Iraqi troops to "Level 1" operational status, but the Bush administration won't answer.

Democrats have asked how many Iraqi battalions we're training at a time, trying to determine how many could potentially be ready "soon," but the Bush administration won't answer.

During sworn testimony in front of Congress, General George Casey testified that the number of "Level 1" Iraqi battalions has gone from three to one in the last few months.  Considering that this is the closest thing we have to measure our progess in Iraq, we know that we've lost 66% of the progress we've made in the last 2.5 years.

By every standard, the War in Iraq is a tremendous failure so far: two thousand American servicemen killed in action, scores more *seriously* wounded with life-changing injuries, and absolutely no idea of where we stand, where we're headed, or how long it will take to get there.  The failures in the planning and execution of this operation on every level, from failing to establish order in the weeks after the invasion to the lack of body armor and ammunition for troops on the front lines, are on a scale so epic that it may take decades to fully grasp the level of incompetence at work.

Unfortunately, pulling out is not an option.  For better or worse, Iraq is our responsibility now, and we don't get to abandon it just because Paul Wolfowitz's predictions of flowers and chocolates didn't come true.  We *desperately* need a new strategy, increased participation from other nations, a massive increase in the number troops on the ground to establish order, and a set of measureable goals we can begin to work towards, but shattering this country and leaving its people for dead is not a choice we can make.

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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2005, 02:15:49 AM »

I don't think they ever intended to win anything other than to put a stranglehold on Terrorism.

The whole idea, beside the WMD deal (wink, wink) was to create and maintain a presence in the area, in order to undermine terrorist activities.

Of course this is how I see it, it's not like I am talking to the Joint Chiefs or anything.
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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2005, 02:46:12 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
I marked it as RP, bring it on.

Shouldn't you have marked it as PvP instead?

 :wink:
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2005, 12:33:30 PM »

:: takes gloves off, looks down at the keyboard, and sighs ::

The sleeping giant woke, and not finding the insect that bit it, lashed out at friend and foe alike. When no resistance was met, it renewed old hatreds and lay waste to it's most recent foe.

At least, that's how I see it. The locomotive had steam, but the tracks weren't moved. The world watched, disapprovingly, as all of Iraq was punished once again for the "sins" of its leaders. Do you think perhaps it would be fair to have a larger, more military country depose your existing government using military might? I'm really not seeing much of a difference here; only because Bush Jr. stands in "the light" and is a self-proclaimed "hero" this makes him good and right to impose military might and destroy a countries infrastructure to build it "in his own image" ? Now that the damage is done the questions are being asked like "we need other countries to step in and help fix the mess" but who is being held accountable for said mess? Hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilians have died, including rebels loved by their own people. Think Luke Skywalker when you think rebel; outnumbered, outgunned and still willing to fly to the heart of their enemy. I mean, what would make *you* want to kill yourself for a cause? What does a suicide bomber get out of killing themself? To get into heaven? To make someone else rich? If these people are being "tricked" into doing it, how is that any different than US soldiers being led to a battlefield with no goal other than the (at this point VERY successful) "the will of a good god", destruction of a nations structure, or perhaps making Haliburton and ye ol' boys club a little richer?

Perhaps Democracy stands higher than facism or dictatorship in the evolutionary ladder, but by no means is it TRULY the top rung.I don't see the american government as any less shady than other implementations of controlled power.

I am saddened, disgusted and enraged with the loss of american soldiers for a cause so hollow. I am a Canadian with some very dear American friends, and I hope the people can make a clear tone ring through your governments halls : a vote of no confidence is not the worst thing that could happen to your country, it would just topple the existing administration. You need a group of people in there that have the american needs ahead of the wants of the political agendas that have been carried forward by the existing marionette; a little puppet with sawdust for brains and strings so obvious we wonder whether anyone could put their hand up his arse and make him say anything we want.

They didn't attack an opposed nation; they attacked a country filled with factions who have had millenia of internal conflict and power struggles with millions of civilians trying to keep food on their table. They should have gone IN with a clear plan. Standing around now and looking around for the map and their playbook says to me that they don't have a hot fucking clue what they're doing, and they shouldn't be allowed lead ANY sort of rebuilding effort. Oh, make no mistake, they should be PAYING for what they broke, but their heavy-handed tendencies will NOT be able to rebuild and balance the environment. It took a strong, ruthless leader to hold these people together, what makes you think that a spineless imposed government will be able to hold tight on a rough ride AND fight off the rest of the jackals in the middle-east?

If this is going to work, the US will need to shift controls to the UN, the UN will have to grow a pretty damn big pair of balls for the road ahead, and the US troops will be required for a Long, Long Time on Iraqi soil that isn't that far, far away.

And some of those US nad UN troops are going to be shipped back to their families in wheelchairs and pine boxes; there is no two ways about it. We will be paying for the "sins" of the father (and his puppet son), all of us.

(you'll note how I didn't touch on how the prev. US gvmt had anything to do with forming the existing situation (through influences exerted in the past 40 years... this is to keep the tone from sounding too negative. I just want to see this fixed).

 :cry:
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« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2005, 01:09:12 AM »

Never has America seen so much money and manpower spent on so much, and achieved so little.

Truly, this is a landmark in incompetence which will likely stand for hundreds of years.
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« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2005, 02:25:38 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for supporting our troops, but how can we support them in their mission if their mission isn't defined?


I am not ex-military but I wanted to express that I completely agree with KD's statement here.
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