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Author Topic: [Rock Band Party] Dry ice fog health and safety concerns...  (Read 1985 times)
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PeteRock
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« on: November 13, 2007, 10:13:33 PM »

For our upcoming Rock Band party on December 1st we've been discussing fog options, as you simply cannot have a Rock Band party without fog, and I've run into some health and safety concerns, not necessarily for us, but for our dogs.

I initially considered a fog machine, but every article I've read has warned about inevitable residue from the "fog juice" used in the machine (a combination of glycol and water).  Most of what I have read has said "you will have residue on everything in your home if you use the machine indoors", and I am not willing to risk residue on everything in our home simply for Rock Band fog effects (perhaps some may question whether I am completely comitted to the Rock Band experience if I am not willing to sacrifice all of our worldly possessions for the good of virtual rock and roll, but my Angus Young costume should more than make up for it).

And so in place of manufactured fog we've been considering the combination of dry ice and warm water as dry ice is fairly easy to find at any local grocery store and we have a limitless supply of warm water from our faucet (our grocery stores have coolers complete with dry ice gloves and blocks of dry ice individually wrapped for easy shopping).  However, carbon dioxide is one of the byproducts of dry ice sublimation, and dropping dry ice into warm water accelerates CO2 generation.  I've read a series of studies investigating potential health issues stemming from use of fog effects by actors in stage productions, and no real correlations have been made.  Except for warnings about asphyxiation. 

Because dry ice fog increases the level of CO2 in the room, asphyxiation becomes a concern.  We will have both our back door and our front door open, along with fans moving the fog from our back patio through our living room and then out our front door, so we'll have ample ventilation for all party attendees and the fog will remain at the lowest point in the room (the floor) because it has a higher density than the surrounding air.

But Nala and Simba inhabit the lowest point in the room (the floor).    icon_eek   And so asphyxiation becomes a real concern for them.  And I have now unfortunately been considering abandoning our plans to have fog as part of our Rock Band party atmosphere for the safety of our dogs (who will inevitably be lying down on the carpet as we all play, placing them "right in the thick of it" if you will). 

I was wondering if my concerns are a bit overprotective and with enough ventilation they should be fine, or if it would be ideal for us to abandon plans to utilize dry ice fog for the safety of our pets (and any virtual rockers who collapse from excessive play).  Obviously we wouldn't have continuous fog throughout the party, using it from time to time to add to the atmosphere, but even in small doses I worry about Simba's and Nala's safety.

Any advice or input stemming from prior experience would be appreciated.  Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM »

Use dry ice.  Put the dogs in another room.  I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2007, 10:35:02 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM

Use dry ice.  Put the dogs in another room.  I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.

Follow this link to search by dumb. 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 11:00:31 PM by DragonFyre » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2007, 10:44:14 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM

Use dry ice.  Put the dogs in another room.  I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.

We're merely trying to host an interesting party.  And fog and rock go together like lamb and tuna fish.  Or maybe you like spaghetti and meatball?  You more comfortable with that analogy?

Either way, don't be a dick.  You're simply jealous that you're not invited.

I'm not sure why asphyxiation concerns about increased levels of CO2 in the room is such an inane topic.  Perhaps for you, but working around health and safety for so long I tend to think about things like this.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 10:51:14 PM by PeteRock » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2007, 10:53:49 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM

I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.
I lol'd.
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IkeVandergraaf
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2007, 10:57:37 PM »

Lamb and tuna fish?  Wtf?

I think the dry ice will be fine.  Carbon dioxide isn't dangerous the way that carbon monoxide is (CO actually bonds to the hemoglobin on your red blood cells and won't allow your blood cells to get oxygen).  Between keeping the room ventilated and people moving around circulating the air, I don't think there's any way a dangerous concentration of CO2 can build up.  Besides, dry ice is kind of self-limiting as far as how much fog it can produce without changing the water because the water around the dry ice freezes up into a layer of ice.  We used to do haunted houses when we were kids and you can huff that shit without danger.

Also, you can move the dogs into another room.  Or put them outside.  You live in Arizona.  They'll be fine.

And what's this about me not being invited?
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2007, 11:00:03 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:57:37 PM

We used to do haunted houses when we were kids and you can huff that shit without danger.

I'm not sure this proves what you intended it to...
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PeteRock
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2007, 11:09:07 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:57:37 PM

Lamb and tuna fish?  Wtf?

Movie quote from the Adam Sandler film "Big Daddy."

Quote
I think the dry ice will be fine.  Carbon dioxide isn't dangerous the way that carbon monoxide is (CO actually bonds to the hemoglobin on your red blood cells and won't allow your blood cells to get oxygen).  Between keeping the room ventilated and people moving around circulating the air, I don't think there's any way a dangerous concentration of CO2 can build up.  Besides, dry ice is kind of self-limiting as far as how much fog it can produce without changing the water because the water around the dry ice freezes up into a layer of ice.  We used to do haunted houses when we were kids and you can huff that shit without danger.

This is what my initial thoughts were, but after reading that those directly in the path of the fog can be at risk I started to worry about the puppy as she's not that tall yet.  Plus, the dogs like to relax on the carpet, putting them at "fog level."

Quote
Also, you can move the dogs into another room.  Or put them outside.  You live in Arizona.  They'll be fine.

We don't have a yard, and our first floor is an open floorplan, so there isn't a room to put them in (they aren't allowed upstairs, either).  Regardless, when we have guests or parties, the dogs are always present.  That's how we run our house.  Hence the excessive amounts of obedience training.  They don't chew, bite, jump, climb, beg, etc.  I wouldn't suggest that a parent lock up their kids in a back room, and I would never separate our dogs from a social event as they enjoy company.   

Quote from: Brendan on November 13, 2007, 11:00:03 PM

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:57:37 PM

We used to do haunted houses when we were kids and you can huff that shit without danger.

I'm not sure this proves what you intended it to...

I lol'd.

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:57:37 PM

And what's this about me not being invited?

To complete the experience we're going to have a bouncer standing outside with a guest list turning away uninvited party crashers and unattractive people.  I'm just not sure that you meet our aesthetic standards to get by the velvet rope.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 11:24:59 PM by PeteRock » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2007, 12:03:57 AM »

If you're that worried then ditch the fog plans or order two of these:


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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2007, 12:25:34 AM »

No there is definitely dumber.

In Sergeants school, while I was in the Marine Corps, we had an upcoming test.  The instructor told us to be sure to bring our maps as we would have to find coordinates on them and shoot azimuths.  One dumb soul asked the question " do we need to bring our compasses too? ".
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2007, 01:20:13 AM »

Quote from: PeteRock on November 13, 2007, 10:13:33 PM

For our upcoming Rock Band party on December 1st we've been discussing fog options, as you simply cannot have a Rock Band party without fog, and I've run into some health and safety concerns, not necessarily for us, but for our dogs.

I initially considered a fog machine, but every article I've read has warned about inevitable residue from the "fog juice" used in the machine (a combination of glycol and water).  Most of what I have read has said "you will have residue on everything in your home if you use the machine indoors", and I am not willing to risk residue on everything in our home simply for Rock Band fog effects (perhaps some may question whether I am completely comitted to the Rock Band experience if I am not willing to sacrifice all of our worldly possessions for the good of virtual rock and roll, but my Angus Young costume should more than make up for it).

And so in place of manufactured fog we've been considering the combination of dry ice and warm water as dry ice is fairly easy to find at any local grocery store and we have a limitless supply of warm water from our faucet (our grocery stores have coolers complete with dry ice gloves and blocks of dry ice individually wrapped for easy shopping).  However, carbon dioxide is one of the byproducts of dry ice sublimation, and dropping dry ice into warm water accelerates CO2 generation.  I've read a series of studies investigating potential health issues stemming from use of fog effects by actors in stage productions, and no real correlations have been made.  Except for warnings about asphyxiation. 

Because dry ice fog increases the level of CO2 in the room, asphyxiation becomes a concern.  We will have both our back door and our front door open, along with fans moving the fog from our back patio through our living room and then out our front door, so we'll have ample ventilation for all party attendees and the fog will remain at the lowest point in the room (the floor) because it has a higher density than the surrounding air.

But Nala and Simba inhabit the lowest point in the room (the floor).    icon_eek   And so asphyxiation becomes a real concern for them.  And I have now unfortunately been considering abandoning our plans to have fog as part of our Rock Band party atmosphere for the safety of our dogs (who will inevitably be lying down on the carpet as we all play, placing them "right in the thick of it" if you will). 

I was wondering if my concerns are a bit overprotective and with enough ventilation they should be fine, or if it would be ideal for us to abandon plans to utilize dry ice fog for the safety of our pets (and any virtual rockers who collapse from excessive play).  Obviously we wouldn't have continuous fog throughout the party, using it from time to time to add to the atmosphere, but even in small doses I worry about Simba's and Nala's safety.

Any advice or input stemming from prior experience would be appreciated.  Thanks.

you do know, dogs can go outside right Tongue
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2007, 02:59:24 AM »

The real question is, are you going to have a light show?
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2007, 03:53:04 AM »

doesn't the dry ice mist put alot of moisture into the air?  usually lots of moisture + electronics = bad.
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2007, 04:07:58 AM »

Rock Band party eh?  Well to each their own I guess!  I think it's bad enough that any grown man would strap a plastic guitar over his shoulder.  Still, I suppose there are far more destructive pastimes.
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2007, 12:50:36 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on November 14, 2007, 04:07:58 AM

Rock Band party eh?  Well to each their own I guess!  I think it's bad enough that any grown man would strap a plastic guitar over his shoulder.  Still, I suppose there are far more destructive pastimes.

It isn't about the plastic guitars - it is about the friendship.  I get to meet some of the scary people on this board, and they have to suffer my odd sense of humor in return.  It'll be a laugh riot.  (And I get to meet Pete's doggies!)
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2007, 01:04:10 PM »

Who cares about the fog machine? Make sure you have fire extinguishers ready for when you light your guitar on fire.
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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2007, 01:30:59 PM »

Careful, Ron's a bit of a cross-dressing groupie.

you do NOT want to see that man in a poodle skirt.
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2007, 01:31:53 PM »

Quote from: Purge on November 14, 2007, 01:30:59 PM

Careful, Ron's a bit of a cross-dressing groupie.

you do NOT want to see that man in a poodle skirt.

Damn it, I've been 'outed' slywink

On an unrelated note - you can have your skirt back.  icon_twisted
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2007, 01:33:31 PM »

Oh, and if you really need the haze, I'd suggest marijuana ... that way it'd have that "Grateful Dead" vibe. Or you could pull a heatsink off your 360, and rest something flammable against it... YMMV though.
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2007, 01:34:24 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on November 14, 2007, 01:31:53 PM

Quote from: Purge on November 14, 2007, 01:30:59 PM

Careful, Ron's a bit of a cross-dressing groupie.

you do NOT want to see that man in a poodle skirt.

Damn it, I've been 'outed' slywink

On an unrelated note - you can have your skirt back.  icon_twisted

What... what are these stains? Wait... what happens in the dressing room STAYS in the dressing room. (besides, I have access to youtube).
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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2007, 02:13:27 PM »

Well the reason for fog is see the lasers. I assume you have lasers? If not, the fog really is not intergral to a rock show. Been to many rock shows where there was no fog, so it is hardly a neccessity if you ask me.

Secondly, if you well-ventilate the area, chances are your fog will get ventilated right out the back door and thus be total ineffective. Fog recieves a penalty on its saving throw vs. air flow. smile If dry ice is cheap, I would recommend a dry run (pun intended).

Lastly, I would think any dog is going to be a bit unsettled by a bunch of loud music coupled with a house full of strangers. I think I would be more concerned with damaging their hearing than the effects of dry ice fog. 
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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2007, 02:54:12 PM »

Although the intended effect would be awesome, I don't believe you would get the results you desire. Besides, that stuff runs out really quickly, so unless you intend to hire someone to keep the fog going at all times all it would do is distract you from rocking out. I vote for less dry ice and more cow bell.
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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2007, 03:16:07 PM »

Quote from: happydog on November 14, 2007, 02:54:12 PM

Although the intended effect would be awesome, I don't believe you would get the results you desire. Besides, that stuff runs out really quickly, so unless you intend to hire someone to keep the fog going at all times all it would do is distract you from rocking out. I vote for less dry ice and more cow bell.

yes, you need to buy some cowbells for the party!!!!



and we expect youtube videos of Ron dancing! I bet it looks like:

or .

plus I hear his guitar style is kinda icon_twisted
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« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2007, 04:04:13 PM »

Quote from: Toe on November 14, 2007, 02:13:27 PM

Well the reason for fog is see the lasers. I assume you have lasers?

Dude.  He's got dogs so of course he's got lasers.

Wait a minute... you do have dogs with lasers don't you?  DON'T YOU????
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2007, 04:06:13 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on November 14, 2007, 04:07:58 AM

Rock Band party eh?  Well to each their own I guess!  I think it's bad enough that any grown man would strap a plastic guitar over his shoulder.  Still, I suppose there are far more destructive pastimes.

I think the irrepressable urge to respond with an air of judgement and condescention might rank a little higher.

Quote from: ATB on November 14, 2007, 01:04:10 PM

Who cares about the fog machine? Make sure you have fire extinguishers ready for when you light your guitar on fire.

We've already hidden the creme brulee torch as it has been used far to often for things other than carmelizing sugar.  Plus, since my wife is going to dress up as Jaime Hendrix, I have to make sure she doesn't get carried away:



Quote from: Toe on November 14, 2007, 02:13:27 PM

Lastly, I would think any dog is going to be a bit unsettled by a bunch of loud music coupled with a house full of strangers. I think I would be more concerned with damaging their hearing than the effects of dry ice fog. 

Having a house full of people is no problem at all.  Especially since Simba and Nala know most of our invited guests and are extremely social, anyway.  Plus, we always have people coming and going, and the dogs love a full house.  It means that much more attention for them.  We also visit places like PetSmart, Lowe's, Home Depot, parks, shopping centers, etc at their most crowded times for obedience training and the moment someone makes eye contact the tails are wagging like mad and they are almost beside themselves with anticipation that someone new might pet them.  I'm not at all worried about crowds in the house.  The dogs will make their rounds like good hosts and then choose their favorite guests to sit/sleep next to.

The noise shouldn't be a problem, either, as they've experienced loud video game explosions, movies in complete surround sound, Guitar Hero rock marathons, and screaming football fans.  Nala has even adjusted to my sudden exclamations of frustration or excitement during an Eagles game.  Nala will probably be passed out under the drums resting her chin on the bass pedal as Simba crashes next to the couch.

Quote from: CeeKay on November 14, 2007, 03:16:07 PM

yes, you need to buy some cowbells for the party!!!!


The microphone doubles as a cowbell for songs like Don't Fear the Reaper, so there should be plenty of cowbell.  Although we may need to supply back-up cowbells so that everyone singing along won't drown out the only prescription for our fever.  More cowbell.

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« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2007, 04:09:23 PM »

Quote from: warning on November 14, 2007, 04:04:13 PM

Quote from: Toe on November 14, 2007, 02:13:27 PM

Well the reason for fog is see the lasers. I assume you have lasers?

Dude.  He's got dogs so of course he's got lasers.

Wait a minute... you do have dogs with lasers don't you?  DON'T YOU????

Unfortunately they're not even ill tempered.  <<raises pinky>>

After some discussion we've actually decided to scrap the fog idea, but we will have a disco ball, strobe lights, and we're even taking minor rider requests for the "green room" (all blue M&M's, favorite type of beer, etc).  And my wife is planning to make sure the dogs have appropriate rock attire as well (spiked collars, rock bandanas, etc). 
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« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2007, 04:29:01 PM »

Gosh darn it Pete!  You had to move to Arizona!  You know I would be all over this.  I will be there in spirit.  At least I can take comfort in knowing that in some way I am responsible for introducing you to Xbox way back when.  Remember that day in the office when I finally convinced you to pick up an Xbox?  I was just really tired of hearing you pimp your Cookies 'n Cream game sessions with the wife on the PS2.  Something had to be done.  icon_wink

You know I could join in the party over Live.  I think you can do that with Rock Band.  I'll even sing!!!  Does Rock Band come with Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline?  I can belt that one out with the best of them!  nod
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« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2007, 04:56:00 PM »

Quote from: Starshifter on November 14, 2007, 04:29:01 PM

Gosh darn it Pete!  You had to move to Arizona!  You know I would be all over this.  I will be there in spirit.  At least I can take comfort in knowing that in some way I am responsible for introducing you to Xbox way back when.  Remember that day in the office when I finally convinced you to pick up an Xbox?  I was just really tired of hearing you pimp your Cookies 'n Cream game sessions with the wife on the PS2.  Something had to be done.  icon_wink

You know I could join in the party over Live.  I think you can do that with Rock Band.  I'll even sing!!!  Does Rock Band come with Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline?  I can belt that one out with the best of them!  nod

Our guest list is close to 20, and a few forum members might even be flying out to attend.   icon_eek  Harkonis and Pr0ner are checking flight prices, and we also have some GTers in the area that will be attending, namely Knightshade Dragon and his wife.  SpicyJ lives right up the street as well and may be in attendance. 

I've actually never seen so much excitement around a game, and it will certainly be an interesting party.  Everyone is being required to dress in some sort of rock-themed attire, either in full costume modeled after a particular rocker, or a particular look from one of rock's many decades (I think we'll have one or two completely glam-rocked out).  We'll probably have some sort of prize for best costume/outfit, as well as a "Battle of the Bands" later in the evening if we have an even number of attendees (five "teams" of four).  Festivities will probably kick off around 2pm and run until the cops shut us down.   icon_cool

If you don't have your kids that weekend, perhaps you might find an inexpensive flight.   ninja
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« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2007, 05:54:54 PM »

This whole problem seems like it could easily be solved by more beer.  smile
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« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2007, 06:22:11 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on November 14, 2007, 04:56:00 PM

Quote from: Starshifter on November 14, 2007, 04:29:01 PM

Gosh darn it Pete!  You had to move to Arizona!  You know I would be all over this.  I will be there in spirit.  At least I can take comfort in knowing that in some way I am responsible for introducing you to Xbox way back when.  Remember that day in the office when I finally convinced you to pick up an Xbox?  I was just really tired of hearing you pimp your Cookies 'n Cream game sessions with the wife on the PS2.  Something had to be done.  icon_wink

You know I could join in the party over Live.  I think you can do that with Rock Band.  I'll even sing!!!  Does Rock Band come with Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline?  I can belt that one out with the best of them!  nod

Our guest list is close to 20, and a few forum members might even be flying out to attend.   icon_eek  Harkonis and Pr0ner are checking flight prices, and we also have some GTers in the area that will be attending, namely Knightshade Dragon and his wife.  SpicyJ lives right up the street as well and may be in attendance. 

I've actually never seen so much excitement around a game, and it will certainly be an interesting party.  Everyone is being required to dress in some sort of rock-themed attire, either in full costume modeled after a particular rocker, or a particular look from one of rock's many decades (I think we'll have one or two completely glam-rocked out).  We'll probably have some sort of prize for best costume/outfit, as well as a "Battle of the Bands" later in the evening if we have an even number of attendees (five "teams" of four).  Festivities will probably kick off around 2pm and run until the cops shut us down.   icon_cool

If you don't have your kids that weekend, perhaps you might find an inexpensive flight.   ninja

Sorry man.  I do have my kids that weekend and it's my sons birthday.  And you know me and flying!  I'll check Amtrak.  I could probably jump on a train tomorrow and be there by the 1st.
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« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2007, 10:02:52 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM

I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.

This was really funny, but you should have saved that line for a more deserving thread.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2007, 01:46:45 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on November 14, 2007, 10:02:52 PM

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM

I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.

This was really funny, but you should have saved that line for a more deserving thread.

yeah, it was pretty dumb blowing your load like that.
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2007, 03:39:28 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on November 15, 2007, 01:46:45 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on November 14, 2007, 10:02:52 PM

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM

I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.

This was really funny, but you should have saved that line for a more deserving thread.

yeah, it was pretty dumb blowing your load like that.

Fair enough.  Maybe I'll toss it in a couple of Daehawk threads and see if anyone notices.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 09:50:33 PM by IkeVandergraaf » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2007, 08:35:19 PM »


Just curious....but what "fog" do they use at those laser shows at the planetarium?

- shaggy
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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2007, 08:40:47 PM »


I also think you need to watch Rock Star to get into the proper frame of mind before your party. 
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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2007, 08:53:39 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 15, 2007, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on November 15, 2007, 01:46:45 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on November 14, 2007, 10:02:52 PM

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM

I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.

This was really funny, but you should have saved that line for a more deserving thread.

yeah, it was pretty dumb blowing your load like that.

Fair enough.  Maybe I'll toss it in a couple of Daehawk threads and see if anyone notices.

Yeah, really.  Where were you when Depward peed on his cat?
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2007, 11:47:17 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on November 16, 2007, 08:53:39 PM

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 15, 2007, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on November 15, 2007, 01:46:45 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on November 14, 2007, 10:02:52 PM

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on November 13, 2007, 10:30:58 PM

I don't want to say this is the dumbest thread ever, but it's hard for me to find a dumber one, since you can't search by dumb.

This was really funny, but you should have saved that line for a more deserving thread.

yeah, it was pretty dumb blowing your load like that.

Fair enough.  Maybe I'll toss it in a couple of Daehawk threads and see if anyone notices.

Yeah, really.  Where were you when Depward peed on his cat?

That was an awesome thread.
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« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2007, 12:42:36 AM »

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« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2007, 02:10:05 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on November 17, 2007, 12:42:36 AM



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