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Author Topic: [p] Is Bush really better at the war on terror  (Read 6879 times)
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Eco-Logic
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« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2004, 01:46:40 PM »

You should seriously watch Farenhype 9/11.

I'll be glad when next week is over with, my blood pressure is running pretty high lately.
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« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2004, 01:54:49 PM »

Quote from: "Eco-Logic"
Quote from: "aussie77"

1) The job in Afghanistan was never finished. Whatever you might say, Bush pulled the majority of troops out of Afghanistan prematurely before the country was secure in order to invade Iraq. He did this despite his own CIA saying at the time that Saddam was not an immediate threat to the U.S. I cannot quote exactly the words, but their comments were something to the effect of "If Iraq does hold weapons of mass destruction, they are unlikely to use them unless attacked."


I don't agree.

Quote from: "General Tommy Franks"
Neither attention nor manpower was diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq. When we started Operation Iraqi Freedom, we had about 9,500 troops in Afghanistan, and by the time we finished major combat operations in Iraq last May, we had more than 10,000 troops in Afghanistan.





Ok, that is reasonable.

However on the flip side.

1. the financial aid we promised to Afghanistan hasn't been delivered.  Last I saw the US had given less then 10% of the money they promised to help rebuild the country.  

2. Warlords now control large parts of the country.  I don't think this is what was wanted for a completed mission in Afghanistan.  

3. The "elections" were so fraudulent that the international election agency which monitors didn't even bother sending officials to monitor because they felt there was no reasonable expectation  that the election could be free and fair.


Those things don't point to a mission accomplished in Afghanistan.  I really feel we have ignored them.
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draegun
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« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2004, 02:14:33 PM »

Quote from: "dfs"
I know where you are coming from Farly. I apologize for puttine inflamatory langauge into your thread and promise to cease and dissest after this post.

I'm honestly flabergasted at the naivete of the American public. When I listen to the my friends who are Bush supporters, it''s like they live on a different planet or something where Bush is given tremendous credit for things he deserves horrific blame for.

This administration has publicly admitted to lying to congress and the public in order to bring my country into an unjust war. How can anybody turn around and vote for that? How can anybody claim that voting for that "supports the troops?" Now that we've marched off to war based on a lie told from the white house, where are all the people who were morally outraged that Bill Clinton lied?

I could go on and on, but it would just get worse. I am horribly worried about my country. Thanks for letting me vent a bit.


It almost seems trite to say it, but from what I understand about history, the American public is acting similar to the  mid-20's German populace.  Yes, yes different circumstances blah blah.  But my point is that they were sheep who would listen to whom ever.  The American populace doesn't give a rats ass what we do anywhere as long we continue to get our paycheck, buy our cars, drink our coffee and watch our TV.  We as a whole believe whatever we're told.  The democrats and others who oppose the war only bitch and whine, but who cares??  The majority of the population doesn't give a shit.

Be it Kerry or Bush or Cheaney or Edwards.  The end result is almost the same.  What is the American President other than a powerful puppet?

edited to add:

Tactically it all makes sense.  Create chaos in a highly exposive and visible region of the world, take the world's most technologically advanced military over there . . . .  

It does several things
1)  Military funding has shot through the roof
2)  The public as whole supports militarism
3)  Our soldiers get real-time experience

Nebuchadnezzer.  Khan.  Nero.  Nepoleon.  Andrew Jackson.  Stalin.      Hitler.  Franco.  Mao.   Bush??

What's next in the saga of America?
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Sepiche
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« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2004, 02:25:47 PM »

Quote from: "draegun"

Be it Kerry or Bush or Cheaney or Edwards.  The end result is almost the same.  What is the American President other than a powerful puppet?

How can you possibly look at this administration's record with going out of it's way to help corporate friends, it's gutting of environmental laws, it's disregard for our European allies, it's mishandling of the war, it's stealing of the election, it's legacy of lies and deceit, and not think that someone else can do better?

That's the reason this election is such a big issue and why people are registering to vote in record numbers, because for the first time in memory it's actually become clear to everyone how badly we can fair under an incompetent administration.

s
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draegun
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« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2004, 02:36:43 PM »

Incompetent administration?  This administration is brilliant!!!  They've deceived the world and the American populace.  They've made wars where there wasn't any need with full support of the voting mass.  They've side-stepped all pitfalls -- no impeachment proceeding for these people.  And they've made millions upon millions of dollars for several companies, some with which cabinet members are or were associated with.

Who's to say that things aren't shaping up to their expectations?
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Graham
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« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2004, 03:11:51 PM »

Zarkon,

I could quote just as many web sites that prove Michael Moore's lies as what you could show how he spins his "truths."  I used Spinsanity because it is an unbiased source.  I'm assuming that you didn't read the site because it had several other points on there.

His book isn't worth the paper that it's printed on.

I'm curious, where are all the lawsuits that Michael Moore promised against everyone who criticized him for what he said in Fartsandlies 9/11?  I would have thought there would have been a deluge of lawsuits because I have seen far more debunking of his movie than actual fact proving by Michael Moore.

Sorry, but his movie is basically a bunch of lies and distortions that no logical person would take seriously.  He's even worse than Ann Coulter.
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Sepiche
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« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2004, 03:37:14 PM »

Quote from: "draegun"
Incompetent administration?  This administration is brilliant!!!  They've deceived the world and the American populace.  They've made wars where there wasn't any need with full support of the voting mass.  They've side-stepped all pitfalls -- no impeachment proceeding for these people.  And they've made millions upon millions of dollars for several companies, some with which cabinet members are or were associated with.

Who's to say that things aren't shaping up to their expectations?

heh You're absolutely right.  Karl Rove is an evil genius. smile

That said, you don't think that being undermanned in Iraq (despite warnings to the contrary), or losing 380 tones of explosives, or thinking we would be welcomed as liberators, or sending troops into battle without proper equipment, or allowing an entire country to loot itself dry, or jumping to war without justification is incompetent?

Quote

in·com·pe·tent
adj.
1.  Not qualified in legal terms: a defendant who was incompetent to stand trial.
2.  Inadequate for or unsuited to a particular purpose or application.
3.  Devoid of those qualities requisite for effective conduct or action.

Hmm... yeah, sounds about right. smile

s
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Eco-Logic
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« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2004, 03:49:05 PM »

You buy that lost explosive bullshit?  Even though there isn't a shred of evidence.  


Whatever, I'm done with this for the rest of the week.  I have a head ache and am sleepy so I think I'll shut my office door and get some shut eye. slywink
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« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2004, 03:59:09 PM »

Andrew Sullivan is really running with the lost explosive stuff apparantly.

Yeah, I'm a total Sullivan-whore.
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Eco-Logic
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« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2004, 04:00:37 PM »

I read him to.  He and Kerry are both full of caca to be running with a story that doesn't hold water.  


Kerry's moved onto Haliburton today, surprise surprise.  :roll:
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draegun
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« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2004, 04:01:42 PM »

I'll admit Bush comes across as a complete idiot.  Although I do recall a thread from gg where they debated this.  Someone, don't remember who, said that Bush prior to his presidential run actually came across intelligent and clearly spoken.  hmm.  They offered videos to prove their point, BUT for the sake of some here, I never actually watched them.  So, I'm only asserting a possible solution slywink --being:  The man's a player the likes we haven't seen.  ( wow, that's thick isn't it?)  Billie was slick, but Bush may very well be a damn good actor.

I don't agree with a damn thing the man or his admin has done since coming into office, but I will give credit where credit is deserved.  Especially if he pulls off another election.  The man's got the people who matter either pulling the strings or in his back pocket.  And the rest of us dups are hanging in the breeze.
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Sepiche
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« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2004, 04:17:57 PM »

Quote

You buy that lost explosive bullshit? Even though there isn't a shred of evidence.

Yeah, you're right.  The dated video showing our troops opening sealed IAEA canisters is totally faked.  :roll:

Draegun: You know... I can't argue with that, you're right.  I can't say whether I agree that the intelligence stems from Bush or one of his NeoCon lackeys, but you have to give them credit for knowing how to play this country like a harp from hell. smile

s
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« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2004, 04:18:05 PM »

Quote from: "Eco-Logic"
You buy that lost explosive bullshit?  Even though there isn't a shred of evidence.  


Whatever, I'm done with this for the rest of the week.  I have a head ache and am sleepy so I think I'll shut my office door and get some shut eye. slywink


That's what's cracking me up this week. This combined with the forged documents scandel should drive CBS News into the ground along with the New York Times, but it will never happen. It's been proven REPEATEDLY this week that the supposed 380 tons of explosives WERE NOT THERE PRIOR to the invasion. The artillery had ALREADY BEEN MOVED while we were dicking around with the UN asking for more sanctions that were starving the Iraqis.

Did the sanctions contain Saddam? Absolutely. Did they help anyone in the country? Nope. The Iraqis were still being tortured and oppressed by that nut and his type, and all the sanctions did was ensure that the Iraqis would be under his heel until someone went in there and kicked his ass. I'm just saying... slywink

Bottom line - this is yet another fraudulent story from CBS and the New York Times. You'll also note in the lead story on this - NO DATE WAS EVER GIVEN as to when the explosives were there or when they were not there. The slant of the story is that all this happened under Bush's watch, when in fact the stuff was long gone prior to us even getting there. One of the Army guys who actually went to the dump said he and his crew were laughing when they came out of it because the weapons that were there and had been tagged by UN inspectors were all of French and German making. slywink
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« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2004, 04:26:28 PM »

I'm not so willing to write it off just yet.

Linky link

Or I can just save me a big pain in da ass and just link to Sullivan already

I realize you probably think his credibility is shot because he endorsed Kerry.
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Eco-Logic
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« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2004, 04:29:20 PM »

New on Drudge:

Quote
FLASH 10.29.04 11:36:56 ET /// Soldier to brief reporters at Pentagon within the hour that he was tasked with removing explosives from al QaQaa and he and his unit removed 200+ tons... Officer was ordered to join the 101st airborne on April 13 -- to destroy conventional explosives at the al QaQaa complex... Developing...


MAJOR: WE REMOVED 200+ TONS OF EXPLOSIVES FROM FACILITY
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« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2004, 04:29:24 PM »

Quote

It's been proven REPEATEDLY this week that the supposed 380 tons of explosives WERE NOT THERE PRIOR to the invasion

Duder?  Are you watching the news?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.main/index.html

The reporters that were embedded with the 101st that secured that site have video showing the troops opening the site and breaking the seals on the containers.  David Kay, the weapons inspector sppointed by Bush, has verified the seals as IAEA seals and has said the only materials at that site that were in powdered form (as on the video) were RDX and HMX explosives.  The same materials that the administration have acknowleged have been stolen.

How can you possibly say this is not true? :shock:

s
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« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2004, 04:33:49 PM »

Quote from: "Eco-Logic"
New on Drudge:

Quote
FLASH 10.29.04 11:36:56 ET /// Soldier to brief reporters at Pentagon within the hour that he was tasked with removing explosives from al QaQaa and he and his unit removed 200+ tons... Officer was ordered to join the 101st airborne on April 13 -- to destroy conventional explosives at the al QaQaa complex... Developing...


MAJOR: WE REMOVED 200+ TONS OF EXPLOSIVES FROM FACILITY

If that is true, and I will wait until a source besides Drudge verifies it.  I still ask why the administration acknowledged the theft yesterday by saying the explosives were taken away by Saddam before we attacked?

I think it's because they are lieing through their teeth and are desperately trying to cover this one up, and failing, but I'm fairly biased. smile

Also note that the video was from April 18th and was supposedly the first time troops had arrived at the site.

s
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« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2004, 06:10:52 PM »

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137017,00.html

(Couldn't find it on CNN, they must not be fast enough.)

Quote
A U.S. Army officer came forward Friday to say a team from his 3rd Infantry Division took about 250 tons of munitions and other material from the Al-Qaqaa arms-storage facility soon after Saddam Hussein's regime fell in April 2003.

Explosives were part of the load taken by the team, but Major Austin Pearson was unable to say what percentage they accounted for.

The Pentagon believes the disclosure helps explain what happened to 377 tons of high explosives that the International Atomic Energy Agency said disappeared after the U.S.-led invasion.

Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita acknowledged the Defense Department did not have all the answers and could not yet account for all of the missing explosives, but stressed that the major's disclosure was a significant development in unraveling the mystery.

"We've described what we know, and as we know more we'll describe that," said DiRita.

Pearson, accompanied by DiRita, appeared at a Pentagon news conference and said his team's mission in April 2003 was to clear material from the Al-Qaqaa facility in order to secure it for U.S. forces. He admitted he was not an explosives expert.

The IAEA reported the disappearance of the explosives to the United Nations on Monday, suggesting they had fallen into the hands of looters after American troops had swept through the area.


Here is the arms report.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/alqaqaa_documents.pdf

Sounds like Kerry has taken out any reference to these weapons from his speaches and out of his web page.  Kerry has ended up having egg on his face.
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Eco-Logic
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« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2004, 06:38:25 PM »

Quote from: "Graham"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137017,00.html

(Couldn't find it on CNN, they must not be fast enough.)

Quote
A U.S. Army officer came forward Friday to say a team from his 3rd Infantry Division took about 250 tons of munitions and other material from the Al-Qaqaa arms-storage facility soon after Saddam Hussein's regime fell in April 2003.

Explosives were part of the load taken by the team, but Major Austin Pearson was unable to say what percentage they accounted for.

The Pentagon believes the disclosure helps explain what happened to 377 tons of high explosives that the International Atomic Energy Agency said disappeared after the U.S.-led invasion.

Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita acknowledged the Defense Department did not have all the answers and could not yet account for all of the missing explosives, but stressed that the major's disclosure was a significant development in unraveling the mystery.

"We've described what we know, and as we know more we'll describe that," said DiRita.

Pearson, accompanied by DiRita, appeared at a Pentagon news conference and said his team's mission in April 2003 was to clear material from the Al-Qaqaa facility in order to secure it for U.S. forces. He admitted he was not an explosives expert.

The IAEA reported the disappearance of the explosives to the United Nations on Monday, suggesting they had fallen into the hands of looters after American troops had swept through the area.


Here is the arms report.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/alqaqaa_documents.pdf

Sounds like Kerry has taken out any reference to these weapons from his speaches and out of his web page.  Kerry has ended up having egg on his face.


Indeed, and a bullet in his foot.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2004, 03:16:08 AM »

Quote
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita acknowledged the Defense Department did not have all the answers and could not yet account for all of the missing explosives, but stressed that the major's disclosure was a significant development in unraveling the mystery.


Isn't this look like serious problem with the military? Or was it some bad army personnels steal those missing explosives and sold them to terrrorists? Is that why no one in the pentagon know about this until this major came forward?

What I found funny is that the US government changed their story several times last week.

Like they claimed that the missing explosives were gone before the invasion, then when video evidences show the contrary, they have to come out with another story. So suddenly this major come forward and they still can't account for the explosives.
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« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2004, 03:19:27 AM »

Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
Like they claimed that the missing explosives were gone before the invasion, then when video evidences show the contrary, they have to come out with another story. So suddenly this major come forward and they still can't account for the explosives.

They aren't even sure that the video was taken from Al-Qaqaa.  From what I've heard, the video was from a position about three miles south of this area.  I'm sure we'll find out more when more is found out.  Still, it doesn't sound like the big deal that the New York Times tried to make it out to be.
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« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2004, 03:32:04 AM »

I'm not going to get into this argument, but I thought I would put this link up where Channel 5 Eyewitness News (it's a local TV station here, the only local one that went to Iraq if I remember and went with the 101st Airborne, supposedly one of the best groups in our military) says they're pretty darn certain they were at Al Qaqaa.

Anyway, they are much more certain now than they were before that they were indeed in Al Qaqaa.  Take that for what it's worth...

Found another local story about it in the Star Tribune.  The key paragraphs are:

Quote
As they talked last Monday, Caffrey and Staley had no idea whether or not they had been at Al-Qaqaa. However, Staley kept a meticulous log in which he'd recorded all their coordinates using a global positioning device.

He gave the figures to Caffrey, who on Tuesday contacted military sources. They confirmed that the pair had been near the complex. Caffrey pulled the footage and told Berg: "I think we may have footage of bunkers that's similar to the one being broadcast" on CBS.
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