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Author Topic: Gamergate - Thoughts  (Read 1044 times)
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Soulchilde
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« on: October 21, 2014, 02:10:47 PM »

So, I've been watching this whole Gamergate ordeal spiral to a level I never thought I would see in gaming as I initially felt sympathy towards the whole movement, but threatening the opposition ( mainly women) hurts any legitimacy.   




I think what bothers me the most is that politics no matter your leaning is creeping or has creeped into gaming and this was one of the last places that felt safe to me from reality
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Lee
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 02:38:06 PM »

Why sympathy for the movement initially? The whole thing started because a girl slept with a journalist who didn't review her game, despite the claims otherwise. There has never been any legitimacy to the movement since it was based on weak links that in the end didn't hold water. It seems like it's just an excuse for kids to troll.

Did I miss something where any truth/reason was presented in this whole thing?
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forgeforsaken
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 02:45:36 PM »

The movement was never legitimate, having been started by a jilted exboyfriend.  The movement has nothing to do with ethics in journalism as it frequently goes after
targets that have little to nothing to do with it and often ignores real issues of questionable ethics (barely a peep on the Warner Brothers Youtube paid branding for Mordor for instance.)

Politics has been intertwined with games for decades, that is nothing new.
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 06:07:50 PM »

It's all a bunch of crap. First of all, other than GamingTrend, QuarterToThree and a handful of other more independent gaming sites, I ignore the "mainstream" gaming sites because I find them all embarrassingly bad.

Second, airing everyone's dirty laundry, along with all the blatant misogyny, is so far out of my interest as a gamer I find it all just disgusting. I do sympathize with the women in gaming who are under the constant barrage of idiocy bombarding them. I don't always agree with Anita Sarkeesian's opinions, but I respect the fact that she expresses them intelligently, no thanks to the trolls who insult and threaten her in all sorts of disturbing ways.
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2014, 07:03:31 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 21, 2014, 02:45:36 PM

Politics has been intertwined with games for decades, that is nothing new.

There's even a site dedicated to covering it, run by the Entertainment Consumers Association.
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hepcat
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2014, 07:42:51 PM »

Quote from: Lee on October 21, 2014, 02:38:06 PM

Why sympathy for the movement initially? The whole thing started because a girl slept with a journalist who didn't review her game, despite the claims otherwise. There has never been any legitimacy to the movement since it was based on weak links that in the end didn't hold water. It seems like it's just an excuse for kids to troll.

Did I miss something where any truth/reason was presented in this whole thing?

Nope, that was my takeaway as well.

The whole thing is just an excuse for trolls to practice misogyny while pretending to fight over some imagined ethics in journalism hullabaloo.  When someone speaks out against that misogyny, they're immediately labeled a "Social Justice Warrior" as if it were an insult, even though the name sounds pretty goddamn cool and rad to me.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 07:48:09 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2014, 08:08:36 PM »

They jumped to other kinds of critique once their initial claims were debunked. Jumping to criticize people with that ridiculous and laughable term, "social justice warrior," and notions of collusion in media. I think the goal was to make those sound scary, but they just sound like politician style talking points.

The problem I see is that there were an initial tiny few who were in it for actual journalistic integrity, but they weren't the ones choosing the targets of the scrutiny, so nothing that should have looked at got the attention it deserved. As above, they usually focused on women, starting with Ms. Quinn, and anyone tangentially related to women in the industry. Even places where there were more real collusion and rigging went pretty much untouched by gamergate.

Overall, I think it's already done. There really isn't much happening with it. As expected, once the initial furor from angry men blew over, so did the backbone. Now, you only see it mentioned when the last of the crazies come out, still lashing out, such as the most recent bout with Brianna Wu. The sad thing is, it still keeps reflecting on normal gamers who think this is a fun primary hobby.

Even those initial few interested in integrity have stepped away from the label.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 08:23:35 PM by Turtle » Logged
forgeforsaken
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2014, 08:23:48 PM »

They just got Adobe to pull ads from Gawker today, so I wouldn't say they are done yet.
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2014, 08:28:09 PM »

Only reason I know anything about it is because CheapyD talked about it on his podcast.

This is small fish in a small pond pretending they're apex predators when no one- and that includes most gamers- even cares.


That said the whole forum given to fools claiming there's misjustice in EVERYTHING needs to stop.
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Turtle
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2014, 08:28:25 PM »

True, but Adobe will just put their ads back once the furor is over. Again, this is all just twitter mob mentality, and it's something that forces corporations to respond, but corporations don't care about the issue on either side, they just want to quietly not be associated with the politics until it blows over.

It's only a victory in their shallow mindset.

What's more, adobe software often serves the art and entertainment community. That's a community that traditionally has a lot of women, and women in the media.

It won't last. But even so, I'll still push for reason and understanding. I've actually adjusted some things in my next game project, more of a social game, not out of fear of gamergate, but rather to promote positive improvement, instead of this angry male mob.
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2014, 08:41:16 PM »

Quote from: ATB on October 21, 2014, 08:28:09 PM

That said the whole forum given to fools claiming there's justice in EVERYTHING needs to stop.

Hey, cool...the opposite works just as well.   icon_wink

This particular event is not a case of "fools claiming there's injustice in everything".  This particular event is a case of idiots getting outraged that some girls want access to a clubhouse they think belongs just to them and trying to scare them off.  When they're called on it, they point to something off in the distance and scream, "HEY, WHAT'S THAT OVER THERE!?!" and run away like the cowards they are.

This article on Giant Bomb sums everything up quite succinctly, I thought.
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 09:14:31 PM »

It's a terrible thing. A huge number of people were trolled and continue to be trolled. The threats are embarrassing, the advertising bans are embarrassing, the ethics conversation is embarrassing. Anyone who actually understands how this started and what it's become should rightfully think that both sides, the 4chan trolls and the hashtaggers who continue to think this is a real issue, are a bunch of tools.
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 09:28:17 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on October 21, 2014, 09:14:31 PM

It's a terrible thing. A huge number of people were trolled and continue to be trolled. The threats are embarrassing, the advertising bans are embarrassing, the ethics conversation is embarrassing. Anyone who actually understands how this started and what it's become should rightfully think that both sides, the 4chan trolls and the hashtaggers who continue to think this is a real issue, are a bunch of tools.
  I think you are misusing both sides there, as the trolls and hashtaggers are on the same side.
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« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 09:38:52 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 21, 2014, 09:28:17 PM

Quote from: Teggy on October 21, 2014, 09:14:31 PM

It's a terrible thing. A huge number of people were trolled and continue to be trolled. The threats are embarrassing, the advertising bans are embarrassing, the ethics conversation is embarrassing. Anyone who actually understands how this started and what it's become should rightfully think that both sides, the 4chan trolls and the hashtaggers who continue to think this is a real issue, are a bunch of tools.
  I think you are misusing both sides there, as the trolls and hashtaggers are on the same side.

Not exactly. The trolls started the whole thing. The overwhelming majority of people using the hashtag are the ones who were fooled by the trolls into thinking it was a real thing. That includes #gamergate and the #notyourshield tag which got a lot of use as well.
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Lee
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 09:53:39 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on October 21, 2014, 09:38:52 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 21, 2014, 09:28:17 PM

Quote from: Teggy on October 21, 2014, 09:14:31 PM

It's a terrible thing. A huge number of people were trolled and continue to be trolled. The threats are embarrassing, the advertising bans are embarrassing, the ethics conversation is embarrassing. Anyone who actually understands how this started and what it's become should rightfully think that both sides, the 4chan trolls and the hashtaggers who continue to think this is a real issue, are a bunch of tools.
  I think you are misusing both sides there, as the trolls and hashtaggers are on the same side.

Not exactly. The trolls started the whole thing. The overwhelming majority of people using the hashtag are the ones who were fooled by the trolls into thinking it was a real thing. That includes #gamergate and the #notyourshield tag which got a lot of use as well.

You are giving people too much credit. icon_smile

I haven't spent much time reading the hashtag posts, but 99% of what I saw is garbage. The majority who seem to be using that hashtag weren't fooled, they are ignorant f.....
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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2014, 10:00:51 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on October 21, 2014, 09:38:52 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 21, 2014, 09:28:17 PM

Quote from: Teggy on October 21, 2014, 09:14:31 PM

It's a terrible thing. A huge number of people were trolled and continue to be trolled. The threats are embarrassing, the advertising bans are embarrassing, the ethics conversation is embarrassing. Anyone who actually understands how this started and what it's become should rightfully think that both sides, the 4chan trolls and the hashtaggers who continue to think this is a real issue, are a bunch of tools.
  I think you are misusing both sides there, as the trolls and hashtaggers are on the same side.

Not exactly. The trolls started the whole thing. The overwhelming majority of people using the hashtag are the ones who were fooled by the trolls into thinking it was a real thing. That includes #gamergate and the #notyourshield tag which got a lot of use as well.

They are still essentially allied though and are on the same side, the other side would be the so called SJWs, along with female game developers and journalists.
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« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2014, 10:12:00 PM »

I wonder how much of this gamergate business was only able to be a thing due to twitter being what it is. Twitter is just a terrible place to try and talk about serious issues, and any movement built up through twitter tends to be a confused mess that can only exist based on rage and furor, without direction. That's because it's hard to give reason and direction in just 140 characters.

I agree that those concerned people who got taken for a ride on twitter by the 'gaters shouldn't be villified, but then again, how many of those acknowledged, or even know about, how this mess actually started. I think any that did just simply stopped using the hashtag, just as quickly as they started.

And in the end, the problem might be tied into this wave of internet slacktivism, that just happens to be bolstering the trolls.

By the way, I consider myself a Social Justice Rogue. Warrior classes are so bland. I can't call myself a wizard though, since my coding skills are crap. Tongue
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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2014, 10:12:56 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 21, 2014, 10:00:51 PM

Quote from: Teggy on October 21, 2014, 09:38:52 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 21, 2014, 09:28:17 PM

Quote from: Teggy on October 21, 2014, 09:14:31 PM

It's a terrible thing. A huge number of people were trolled and continue to be trolled. The threats are embarrassing, the advertising bans are embarrassing, the ethics conversation is embarrassing. Anyone who actually understands how this started and what it's become should rightfully think that both sides, the 4chan trolls and the hashtaggers who continue to think this is a real issue, are a bunch of tools.
 I think you are misusing both sides there, as the trolls and hashtaggers are on the same side.

Not exactly. The trolls started the whole thing. The overwhelming majority of people using the hashtag are the ones who were fooled by the trolls into thinking it was a real thing. That includes #gamergate and the #notyourshield tag which got a lot of use as well.

They are still essentially allied though and are on the same side, the other side would be the so called SJWs, along with female game developers and journalists.


Sorry, I didn't mean opposing sides, just the segment acting in bad faith and the segment who believes that gamergate is some real thing.
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2014, 10:18:35 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on October 21, 2014, 10:12:00 PM


By the way, I consider myself a Social Justice Rogue. Warrior classes are so bland. I can't call myself a wizard though, since my coding skills are crap. Tongue
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Soulchilde
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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2014, 11:22:22 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 21, 2014, 10:18:35 PM

Quote from: Turtle on October 21, 2014, 10:12:00 PM


By the way, I consider myself a Social Justice Rogue. Warrior classes are so bland. I can't call myself a wizard though, since my coding skills are crap. Tongue


awesome
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2014, 01:30:39 AM »

I cannot even fathom how so many people can care so much about something so obviously fucking contrived and unimportant. I have honestly attempted to read about the topic on Broken Forum and other places and I just can't do it. I can't! My brain just starts rejecting it in the name of self-preservation and I'm compelled to do something—anything—else with my time.
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 11:47:27 AM »

Quote from: heloder on October 22, 2014, 01:30:39 AM

I cannot even fathom how so many people can care so much about something so obviously fucking contrived and unimportant. I have honestly attempted to read about the topic on Broken Forum and other places and I just can't do it. I can't! My brain just starts rejecting it in the name of self-preservation and I'm compelled to do something—anything—else with my time.

I even avoided this thread.

None the less, however it started, it is a thing, and it's definitely not over. It's crossing over into mainstream media, in fact.  It's been showing up in my news thread daily for the last week or so, and I've had non-gamers mention it to me recently.

It's starting to turn into more than what it is, though, and maybe that's not so bad.  If it mutates into "stop treating women in gaming like shit" and that catches on, I can live with that, despite the eye-rolling beginnings.
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2014, 01:41:55 PM »

It's still a thing because people are giving them the attention they want. I completely understand Briana Wu's reaction to them, but IMO, she should just ignore them and move on, it's just prolonging the whole thing.
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2014, 02:01:59 PM »

I would imagine it's tough to ignore threats about being raped, having your husband's severed genitals jammed down your threat and other such lovely bon mots directed at you via social media and your home phone though.  

She (and all women who are being treated this way) should speak out.  It's the only way to get the silent majority of mature and decent gamers on the internet to add their voices.  There will always be obnoxious brats on the internet who think this shit is funny, but hopefully someday they'll be marginalized.  Right now though?  They're practically running the show.
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2014, 02:37:00 PM »

Briana can do that, she did before all this happened. I am not sure a Twitter hashtag and some gaming forums really amounts to that much and are worth the time.
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2014, 02:58:16 PM »

Quote from: Lee on October 22, 2014, 02:37:00 PM

Briana can do that, she did before all this happened. I am not sure a Twitter hashtag and some gaming forums really amounts to that much and are worth the time.

I feel like there's some misunderstanding here.  The hashtag is used by the harassers, in part as a way to organize and call out targets.
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 03:36:17 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 22, 2014, 02:58:16 PM

Quote from: Lee on October 22, 2014, 02:37:00 PM

Briana can do that, she did before all this happened. I am not sure a Twitter hashtag and some gaming forums really amounts to that much and are worth the time.

I feel like there's some misunderstanding here.  The hashtag is used by the harassers, in part as a way to organize and call out targets.


Right, but Twitter is a pretty vile place in general, gamersgate hashtag or not. The amount of abuse on any subject is nothing short of disgusting. I love the service, but I don't know why anyone of even smalltime fame would use it. Liberal use of the ignore function is the best you can do if you want to be active on the service. For me the real issue here is that Twitter should be stepping in and banning IPs that post the abuse.

If people like Briana Wu want to fight it, more power to her, but I think she is nuts, that crap isn't worth the time or stress for me.
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 03:49:24 PM »

But here's the catch:  she's actually not fighting anyone.  She's just doing what she's always done:  pointing out sexism in video gaming.  Trying to create a dialog on how gaming can be more inclusive now that women are starting to show interest in gaming on a steadily increasing basis.  Both from a player standpoint, as well as an industry insider one.  Asking her to ignore them is essentially telling her to just shut up.  And I know that's not what you're saying.  I'm just pointing out that in this case, she should keep speaking up.
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 04:10:15 PM »

I've read some of the posts and it's all just crap flinging and outright threats.  We need journalistic integrity in all forms, not just gaming like we need acceptance of genders in all forms of media.  Nothing good has come of this whole deal and the abusive A-holes who think it's ok to threaten people who don't agree with them only makes anyone associated with gaming look bad by association. 
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2014, 04:33:24 PM »

Going slightly off topic onto the broader one of women in the tech industry, I listened to a great NPR piece this morning about the supposed reasons for the decline of women in computer sciences that started in the early 80's.  The theory presented was that the home computer market, which provided such a boost to the computer sciences and was almost always a common staple in any household that produced a future programmer or computer engineer, was targeted solely at male youths.  Advertisers treated them as toys for male children in any marketing endeavor.
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2014, 07:29:38 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on October 22, 2014, 11:47:27 AM

None the less, however it started, it is a thing, and it's definitely not over. It's crossing over into mainstream media, in fact.  It's been showing up in my news thread daily for the last week or so, and I've had non-gamers mention it to me recently.

It's not really crossing over, rather, the mainstream media is finally getting around to pick it up.

It won't morph into something better, because the movement is tainted at its core. They're still going after Gawker, for example, when the alleged wrongdoings of that site were proven false. Why? Because it's still associated with the woman that was at the front of it.

And any idiot with a twitter following can make a corporation have a kneejerk reaction these days, but it never lasts.

I need to find the links, but there are a few people forming consumer advocacy groups that were once tied to gamergate, but have splintered off after acknowledging the problems. Trying desperately to hang on to some tainted hashtag isn't the way to go. Likewise, even if you have the best of intentions, letting horrible people determine the targets of your Social Integrity Warrior (see what I did there?) fury is not helping anyone.
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2014, 08:37:28 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on October 22, 2014, 07:29:38 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on October 22, 2014, 11:47:27 AM

None the less, however it started, it is a thing, and it's definitely not over. It's crossing over into mainstream media, in fact.  It's been showing up in my news thread daily for the last week or so, and I've had non-gamers mention it to me recently.

It's not really crossing over, rather, the mainstream media is finally getting around to pick it up.



How is this in any way different?

If it has been picked up by mainstream media, it has crossed over into mainstream media. 

Quote from: Turtle on October 22, 2014, 07:29:38 PM


It won't morph into something better, because the movement is tainted at its core. They're still going after Gawker, for example, when the alleged wrongdoings of that site were proven false. Why? Because it's still associated with the woman that was at the front of it.


It has already started morphing, just by nature of it crossing over into mainstream media.  The focus I keep seeing and hearing about is that women are treated like shit in the gaming industry (I have seen this about both designers and game players).  If attention keeps going toward that and there are changes that result, positive morphing has been achieved.

There are plenty of good things in the world that exist because of terrible, terrible beginnings, but I won't mention any if only to avoid Godwin's Law.
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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2014, 12:11:32 AM »

Chris Kluwe weighs in- The Cauldron.
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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2014, 07:49:23 AM »

So, I have been tangentially aware of this for awhile, but not really paying attention. I don't see how anyone could argue that women are treated horribly and deeply objectified in many (most?) mainstream games, or justify any sort of harassment of those who point this clear fact out.

This childish, hateful behavior makes me sad.

What makes me even more sad is that after cracking the lid of this thing to look in, I quickly came across posts from Adam Baldwin (Firefly) and Nick Searcy (Justified) that make it pretty clear that they are immensely hateful and intolerant people with no ability to think beyond their limited and selfish perspective. That was heartbreaking.
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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2014, 12:02:39 PM »

Quote from: Fireball on October 29, 2014, 07:49:23 AM

So, I have been tangentially aware of this for awhile, but not really paying attention. I don't see how anyone could argue that women are treated horribly and deeply objectified in many (most?) mainstream games, or justify any sort of harassment of those who point this clear fact out.

This childish, hateful behavior makes me sad.

What makes me even more sad is that after cracking the lid of this thing to look in, I quickly came across posts from Adam Baldwin (Firefly) and Nick Searcy (Justified) that make it pretty clear that they are immensely hateful and intolerant people with no ability to think beyond their limited and selfish perspective. That was heartbreaking.

Surprised you didn't know that about Baldwin.  He's always been very staunchly anti-gay and ultra-conservative.  As much as I love him on Firefly/Angel/etc., he pretty much seems like a raging asshole off the set.
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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2014, 03:53:51 PM »

I knew he was conservative, which is no big deal. But the personal vitriol he's spitting at people online is amazing.
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« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2014, 11:38:35 PM »

I had to come to terms with the fact that Adam Baldwin is essentially Jayne Cobb.  But not in a good way.
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Turtle
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« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2014, 08:54:42 AM »

At this point, I've learned to love a character despite the actors. A character is something built by not just the actor, but writers, directors, and showrunners.

Also, another funny thing is that youtubers are the worst offenders of all the things gamergaters get mad about. Where's the outrage and boycotting there?

It's not, because if they targeted those people, they would lose any and all support, despite youtubers basically being all paid to promote games.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 09:14:48 AM by Turtle » Logged
farley2k
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« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2014, 04:08:20 PM »

Colbert Dissects Gamergate
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