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Author Topic: [movie] Star Trek 2, AKA Star Trek Into Darkness  (Read 19742 times)
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Covenant
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« Reply #160 on: March 01, 2012, 03:25:26 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 03:12:53 PM

There's one villain and one villain only in the movie. I hardly believe it would suffer from too many origin stories since that number would always be...well...one.

I still believe in my earlier assertions.  although I'll watch it again soon, I've already seen it twice and had the same impression so I doubt that will change.

We have full origin stories for both Kirk and Spock, as well as minor information for the rest of the crew.  That's already a lot for one film.  In a certain sense, Spock acts more as the villain for this film than Nero does, as he's the one that Kirk truly has to go up against to prove himself as the captain.  It's their friction and relationship that drives the movie.
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« Reply #161 on: March 01, 2012, 03:34:05 PM »

So you're saying that Nero wasn't a fleshed out villain due to time constraints?   icon_wink

While I'm glad you agree partially with me, I still disagree that it wasn't necessary to spend a little more time on Nero.  As I said, more than a few blockbusters are 2 1/2 to 3 hours long these days.  And it's basic storytelling 101 that a believable villain makes a tale better.

And as I've said, if Nero's back story wasn't believed to be of any import, why was it then presented in a comic book by the makers of the film?
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« Reply #162 on: March 01, 2012, 03:35:04 PM »

I still blame Bana.

Let's look at movie villains from II, III, and IV.  

Kahn: His backstory was mostly in an episode of the show (and in that ep, his backstory is brief exposition), but, yeah, we did get to see how far he had fallen and why he would want revenge.  He also had more screen time.  But I think Ricardo Montalban would have done a lot more with as little screen time.  Better than Bana.

Vaguely Remembered Klingon from III: I remember he was played, bizarrely, by Christopher Lloyd.  His motivation, IIRC, was that he was a Klingon.  Probably had more screen time than Bana, and not the most memorable villain.  Much like Nero, his role was plot-driven.  And yet, still better than Bana.

Giant Space Slim Jim: This is the ultimate in nameless villainousness.  Motivation is only "Where the hell are my whales?!"  And yet, that's all you need.  And it's presence is imposing, not just because of the havoc befalling Earth, but also because it threatened harm to my favorite GoGo*.  So, yes, I'm saying that a barely animate object is still better than Bana.



*She's on the screen on the right
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« Reply #163 on: March 01, 2012, 03:39:21 PM »

I didn't think Bana was all that bad.  I just think that his character suffered because he was poorly written.

Khan had a fantastic back story because of the series.  They banked on the built in fan base coming out of the series with knowledge about Khan on that one, but still went out of their way to explain his motivation better than they did Nero, by the way.

By the way, having Khan reappear years later as the main villain in the movie was just a stroke of pure genius.  What a fantastic nod to the long term fans that was.

The main point of the space slim jim was the mystery behind it.  Nero wasn't supposed to be mysterious.  They made a perfunctory attempt at giving him a back story which just served to highlight how poorly constructed he was with the (lack of) materials they used.
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« Reply #164 on: March 01, 2012, 04:02:40 PM »

From Boxofficemojo.com. Total box-office gross of 'Star Trek' (2009):

Quote
Domestic:  $257,730,019    66.8%
+ Foreign:  $127,950,427    33.2%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
= Worldwide:  $385,680,446   

Dig out the grosses from the last two Star Trek films before that. The new film was fine. There was nothing wrong with Bana's performance. JJ Abrams sucessfully revitalized the franchise.

I mean.. you're seriously arguing that the new 'Star Trek' sucked? Seriously?  saywhat

Better have it alive in a new modern form than dead in its previous mediocre form.  nod
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« Reply #165 on: March 01, 2012, 04:03:54 PM »

Who the hell is saying the new star trek sucked?   icon_confused
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« Reply #166 on: March 01, 2012, 04:04:48 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 04:03:54 PM

Who the hell is saying the new star trek sucked?   icon_confused

Bullwinkle over there.   icon_razz
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« Reply #167 on: March 01, 2012, 04:09:21 PM »

Disliking the performance of one character in a film does not automatically mean you hated the movie.  I believe that Bullwinkle actually liked the new Star Trek.  I thought one aspect of the film could have been done better, but I've still mentioned more than once that I loved the movie overall.
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« Reply #168 on: March 01, 2012, 04:12:03 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 03:34:05 PM

So you're saying that Nero wasn't a fleshed out villain due to time constraints?  

While I'm glad you agree partially with me, I still disagree that it wasn't necessary to spend a little more time on Nero.  As I said, more than a few blockbusters are 2 1/2 to 3 hours long these days.  And it's basic storytelling 101 that a believable villain makes a tale better.

And as I've said, if Nero's back story wasn't believed to be of any import, why was it then presented in a comic book by the makers of the film?

Not time, pacing.  Lots of things which might be considered important in a book or comic are cut to keep the flow of the movie moving along. I'd be curious to know of the people with these complaints, how many thought about it while actually watching the film vs. how many thought about it afterwords. And beyond that, how many were bothered enough by it to not watch again.

It was presented in a comic book for the same reason deleted scenes are provided on DVDs or books are written.  Some people might be interested in more story outside the films; this is nothing new.
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« Reply #169 on: March 01, 2012, 04:15:13 PM »

I was thinking "this is a one dimensional villain" when he was defeated and I still hadn't connected with the character on anything more than a superficial level due to his weak presentation.

A better written script would've taken into account the pacing when fleshing out the villain, by the way.

And has been said ad nauseum here, you can find a fault with something you love and still enjoy it.  nothing's perfect.
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« Reply #170 on: March 01, 2012, 04:16:05 PM »

Quote from: Covenant on March 01, 2012, 04:12:03 PM

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 03:34:05 PM

So you're saying that Nero wasn't a fleshed out villain due to time constraints?  

While I'm glad you agree partially with me, I still disagree that it wasn't necessary to spend a little more time on Nero.  As I said, more than a few blockbusters are 2 1/2 to 3 hours long these days.  And it's basic storytelling 101 that a believable villain makes a tale better.

And as I've said, if Nero's back story wasn't believed to be of any import, why was it then presented in a comic book by the makers of the film?

Not time, pacing.  Lots of things which might be considered important in a book or comic are cut to keep the flow of the movie moving along. I'd be curious to know of the people with these complaints, how many thought about it while actually watching the film vs. how many thought about it afterwords. And beyond that, how many were bothered enough by it to not watch again.

It was presented in a comic book for the same reason deleted scenes are provided on DVDs or books are written.  Some people might be interested in more story outside the films; this is nothing new.


Oh, my God. A man talking with some sense. A man talking with some sense!!!

(PR feels lightheaded)

I think I'm going to faint.  icon_smile
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« Reply #171 on: March 01, 2012, 04:18:31 PM »

PR, you still believe the Transformers movies are good.  I'm guessing you always feel light headed.
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« Reply #172 on: March 01, 2012, 04:25:07 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 04:09:21 PM

Disliking the performance of one character in a film does not automatically mean you hated the movie.  I believe that Bullwinkle actually liked the new Star Trek.  I thought one aspect of the film could have been done better, but I've still mentioned more than once that I loved the movie overall.

I loved the new Star Trek.  Never once argued anything other than I don't think Bana gets enough credit for the villain's lameness.
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« Reply #173 on: March 01, 2012, 04:27:34 PM »

Quote from: PR_GMR on March 01, 2012, 04:02:40 PM

From Boxofficemojo.com. Total box-office gross of 'Star Trek' (2009):

Quote
Domestic:  $257,730,019    66.8%
+ Foreign:  $127,950,427    33.2%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
= Worldwide:  $385,680,446   

Dig out the grosses from the last two Star Trek films before that. The new film was fine. There was nothing wrong with Bana's performance. JJ Abrams sucessfully revitalized the franchise.

I mean.. you're seriously arguing that the new 'Star Trek' sucked? Seriously?  saywhat

Better have it alive in a new modern form than dead in its previous mediocre form.  nod

No one in this thread has argued that the new Star Trek sucked.  Not even Bull.  He just argued that Bana sucked, which I tend to agree with.  All rage and no subtlety = dull character.  The Asteroid in Armaggedon had more personality.

That being said, I loved the last Star Trek and I've probably seen it close to 10 times - it was the very first Blu-Ray I ever purchased.
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« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2012, 04:28:08 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 04:18:31 PM

PR,  I would've thought you of all people would've understood the basics of storytelling and how a poorly written villain can be a weakness in a film.

And I do. You don't know me very well, hep. I still remember how you said I suffered from 'Stockholm Syndrome' because I liked 'Transformers 3'.  icon_razz The problem here is that, though most people understand the basics of storytelling, you're misinterpreting tone and concept. The concept behind the new 'Trek' was to reboot it as a more action-driven sci-fi franchise. In that, JJ Abrams and his crew succeeded. It wasn't neccesary to create a Shakespearing villain in Eric Bana's Nero. The movie needed to move. It needed a swifter pace. The tone of the new Trek was also more light. There was actually humor in the film (Simon Pegg and his assistant in the film). In a film that already had so much other character-development, because it introduced all other Trek characters from scratch, Nero didn't need to a tremendous focus. He was a catalyst to bring the crew together. Remember that the main conflict of the new 'Trek' was to get Kirk and Spock to work together, to understand one another.
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« Reply #175 on: March 01, 2012, 04:34:10 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on March 01, 2012, 04:27:34 PM


That being said, I loved the last Star Trek and I've probably seen it close to 10 times - it was the very first Blu-Ray I ever purchased.

 icon_biggrin ditto

And PR, I edited my original reply because I thought it was unnecessarily insulting.  icon_wink

...although I still believe you're always lightheaded.   Tongue

Also, while I understand and agree on the intent of the reboot, I disagree that you have to sacrifice an integral tenet of good storytelling to do so in that context.  
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« Reply #176 on: March 01, 2012, 04:40:30 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 04:34:10 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on March 01, 2012, 04:27:34 PM


That being said, I loved the last Star Trek and I've probably seen it close to 10 times - it was the very first Blu-Ray I ever purchased.

 icon_biggrin ditto

And PR, I edited my original reply because I thought it was unnecessarily insulting.  icon_wink

...although I still believe you're always lightheaded.   Tongue

Also, while I understand and agree on the intent of the reboot, I disagree that you have to sacrifice an integral tenet of good storytelling to do so in that context.  

Oh, you fucka!  icon_lol

I'm not light-headed, I'm just burning with a high-fever to make cinema.  icon_razz I jumped on this thread missasuming that people were hating on 'Star Trek' '09. Good to see that wasn't necessarily the case. Carry on!
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« Reply #177 on: March 01, 2012, 04:47:42 PM »

I thought Abram's star trek was a breath of fresh air.  However, I still long for a Trek series steeped in as much political intrigue as Deep Space Nine.  
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« Reply #178 on: March 01, 2012, 05:13:35 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 03:12:53 PM

There's one villain and one villain only in the movie. I hardly believe it would suffer from too many origin stories since that number would always be...well...one.
Kirk, Spock, Bones and all the essences of that core crew relationship
Uhura and her relationship with Spock
Sulu, Scotty, Chekov as secondary characters
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« Reply #179 on: March 01, 2012, 05:22:04 PM »

Those characters are villains now?

Sorry, couldn't resist.   icon_wink

Back on topic, they don't delve into extensive back stories on any of those characters beyond Kirk and Spock.  The others are just introduced into the group and that's their back story (Scotty gets a bit more than others, but still not a lot).  As they're not really protagonists or antagonists on their own, they don't require as much detail.  Nero is an antagonist and as such could've been improved quite a bit with the back story presented in the comic books.
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« Reply #180 on: March 01, 2012, 06:13:41 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 05:22:04 PM

Those characters are villains now?

Sorry, couldn't resist.   icon_wink

That was only in response to Reply #157, since I hadn't noticed the conversation bumped to a new page.  Covenant already covered what I was trying to say.

Where I think we're in agreement is that movie #2 needs a more interesting villain than Nero. 
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« Reply #181 on: March 01, 2012, 06:28:11 PM »

But my issue is that if they'd taken Nero's story from the comic book and placed it in the movie, he would've been a more interesting villain.  The heartbreak and tragedy of his life would've had a lot more impact had we experienced it firsthand rather than simply explaining it as something that happened off screen.

...but I think we are beating a dead horse at this point.   icon_wink

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« Reply #182 on: March 01, 2012, 06:32:37 PM »

I think I understand your point; I just disagree that it would've made the movie better.  Sure, it would make Nero a more interesting character, but I think it would be at the expense of the great movie pacing or the development of the Enterprise characters.  The comic book, a novel, or a special extended edition release is where the Nero backstory belongs.
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« Reply #183 on: March 01, 2012, 06:39:49 PM »

And I understand your point but don't agree that the pacing would have suffered...not unless the writer's weren't talented enough to handle it; nor do I believe that it would've been to the detriment of the other characters unless you believe that any film over 2 hours in length is automatically a failure.  

Some of the stuff from the comic should stay in the comic, yes.  But not the parts that made Nero a fully realized villain.
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« Reply #184 on: March 01, 2012, 06:42:12 PM »

they need a lot more villains, like Spiderman 3!  ninja
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« Reply #185 on: March 01, 2012, 06:43:40 PM »

more on topic, was I the only person who watched the movie and understood Nero's motivations without having to read the comic?  I thought they did a fine job of displaying why he was how he was and wanted to do what he wanted to do.  You fear him because he has nothing to lose, and pity him for his loss.  All conveyed just fine I think.
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« Reply #186 on: March 01, 2012, 06:46:39 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on March 01, 2012, 06:43:40 PM

more on topic, was I the only person who watched the movie and understood Nero's motivations without having to read the comic?  I thought they did a fine job of displaying why he was how he was and wanted to do what he wanted to do.  You fear him because he has nothing to lose, and pity him for his loss.  All conveyed just fine I think.

I'm not surprised you didn't read the comic books as you clearly haven't taken the time to read through this thread.   icon_lol
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« Reply #187 on: March 01, 2012, 07:08:09 PM »

I would argue that Harkonis reading the thread is not necessary at all and would only slow down the pace.
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« Reply #188 on: March 01, 2012, 07:09:02 PM »

Quote from: Covenant on March 01, 2012, 07:08:09 PM

I would argue that Harkonis reading the thread is not necessary at all and would only slow down the pace.

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« Reply #189 on: March 01, 2012, 07:11:01 PM »

 icon_lol
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« Reply #190 on: March 01, 2012, 07:27:50 PM »

Quote from: Covenant on March 01, 2012, 07:08:09 PM

I would argue that Harkonis reading the thread is not necessary at all and would only slow down the pace.

Besides, anyone interested in that backstory can find it in the optional companion comic.

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« Reply #191 on: March 01, 2012, 07:33:56 PM »

...son of a..i just paid 1.99 an issue for that!
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« Reply #192 on: March 01, 2012, 07:35:00 PM »

I did read the thread, I just don't see room or need for the extra backstory in the movie.  (which is what I said...)

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« Reply #193 on: March 01, 2012, 07:44:06 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on March 01, 2012, 07:35:00 PM

I did read the thread, I just don't see room or need for the extra backstory in the movie.  (which is what I said...)



no.  you said:

Quote
was I the only person who watched the movie and understood Nero's motivations without having to read the comic?

It was stated more than once that people understood his motivations but felt he wasn't a fully realized character, something that the comics addressed.  You would've come across that a couple of times had you read through the thread.
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« Reply #194 on: March 01, 2012, 07:48:02 PM »

guess you don't speak Harkonese then.  My bad.

If you understand his motivations, what more do you want then?  He's not really the focus of the movie, just the driving force behind the events. 

Hell, they spent less time setting up Vader's backstory in the first Star Wars and he's just fine in that...  ninja
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« Reply #195 on: March 01, 2012, 07:48:56 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on March 01, 2012, 07:48:02 PM

guess you don't speak Harkonese then.  My bad.

If you understand his motivations, what more do you want then?  He's not really the focus of the movie, just the driving force behind the events.  

Hell, they spent less time setting up Vader's backstory in the first Star Wars and he's just fine in that...  ninja

Of course, they then went on to fully flesh out Vader with a story that eventually became a trilogy of films.  You forgot to mention that part.  icon_wink

Nero was an essential part of the film.  He was the big bad.  I'm not asking for a film that centers entirely on him, but conversely I don't think it's too much to ask that they give his motivation some gravitas.

p.s. i (and the others who have weighed in on this) are far from the only people who feel this way.  look through reviews on the film and it's mentioned quite frequently as a weakness in the movie.
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« Reply #196 on: March 01, 2012, 07:52:34 PM »

perhaps they could have added in his backstory via a song and dance number on the mining ship.....
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« Reply #197 on: March 01, 2012, 07:53:34 PM »

Let's just jump to this end of this thread, shall we?

Ext. Hollywood. Day:

Hepcat pilots a hijacked blimp.

Hepcat: 'I'll teach them, goddamnit! I'll teach THEMMM!!!!'

Camera cuts to show that written on the blimp are the large words: 'BACKSTORY, MOTHERFUCKERS!"

A Studio Executive looks at the blimp from his highrise window.

Studio Executive: 'Oh, Shit! Internet Fanboys got armed!

Cut to:

Large nuclear explosion wipes out Hollywood.
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« Reply #198 on: March 01, 2012, 08:00:55 PM »

More appropriately:

Int. Computer room in PR's apartment.

PR_GMR is furiously typing on a keyboard.

PR_GMR:  Someone on the internet found fault with Star Trek!  WORSE...THING...EVAH!

Camera cuts to close up of extensive Transformer's memorabilia on PR_GMR's desk along with a hand written note from Michael Bay in which Bay has written, "Thanks for the compliments, PR!  But modern day Shakespeare may be taking it too far!".

PR's roommate walks into the room.

Roommate:  PR, you want some dinner, we're thinking about...

PR_GMR:  GET OUT!  I must register my outrage with the world so they know of this crime!

Cut to a close up of the face of a lone indian standing near a highway as a tear slowly rolls down his cheek.
Logged

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PR_GMR
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« Reply #199 on: March 01, 2012, 08:03:42 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2012, 08:00:55 PM

More appropriately:

Int. Computer room in PR's apartment.

PR_GMR is furiously typing on a keyboard.

PR_GMR:  Someone on the internet found fault with Star Trek!  WORSE...THING...EVAH!

Camera cuts to close up of extensive Transformer's memorabilia on PR_GMR's desk along with a hand written note from Michael Bay in which Bay has written, "Thanks for the compliments, PR!  But modern day Shakespeare may be taking it too far!".

PR's roommate walks into the room.

Roommate:  PR, you want some dinner, we're thinking about...

PR_GMR:  GET OUT!  I must register my outrage with the world so they know of this crime!

Cut to a close up of the face of a lone indian standing near a highway as a tear slowly rolls down his cheek.

 icon_lol
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