[Lifestyle] Breaking my addiction to white powders (sugar, flour).

[ericb]

I can tell you from past experience that if you go low carb to really lose inches and fat then you simply can not cheat.  That means no bread (including flats), no peanut butter (unless you can find the true natural kind made with zero sugar), no flour or whole wheat anything, no potatoes, no sugar.  The first couple weeks at least you want to really, really limit your carbs to no more than 20g per day (the same as about one piece of bread).  Do this and don't be surprised if you drop 20 pounds and a couple of inches the first month...without exercise (and yes a lot of that is water weight).  You will be great the first couple days, exhausted the next week or so and then you will have more energy than you know what to do with.  Your bathroom habits will even out and you will probably need less sleep (while sleeping better).  But you can not cheat at all...no cheat day, no cheat meal, no cheat snack.  If you do then everything basically starts over.  It's very hard, you will be irritable but I've never found anything more effective for quick and noticeable results.  After about two months you'll wonder why you didn't do it 10 years ago and realize you really don't miss sweets or carbs all that much.

Should mention too that your blood pressure will probably get lower and it's a great time to start exercising because of the energy you'll have and the extra protein and essential oils you need for muscle growth.

[Zarkon]

The peanut butter I have from Whole Foods does have /no/ sugar.  Honey, yes.  Sugar, no.  Its sole ingredient is:  Honey roasted peanuts.

[wonderpug]

It's a large, though, not a small.  

Keep in mind that while the "calories in, calories out" method is a misapplied law of thermodynamics, one law is upheld - since you are bigger, your body will demand more.

Yeah... no.  Calorie needs calculators do take into account the higher needs of a higher weight body.  It's great that the Paleo diet is working for you, but you're really channeling the "Beware the man of one book" Aquinas quote with how much you're praising the one book you read over all other information that's out there.

I'm sure the Paleo diet is working great for a lot of people.  So have a lot of other diets, from the reasonable to the insane.  There's no one way that anyone can go "ah HA!  We've finally figured it out!" as you seem to have done with what's working for you.

The one unifier is that it really does come down to calories in, calories out.  I agree, the formulas and calorie estimators and all that don't get it exactly right, the process is more complex and all that, but generally if you take in more calories than your body is burning, you'll gain weight, and vice versa.  

Back to Zarkon

Putting in your height and weight, guessing 30 for your age, the Daily Plate's estimate is that you need to consume 3481 calorie a day to maintain your weight.  I highly recommend spending a few weeks accurately tracking every single thing you eat or drink to see if your caloric intake is in line with that.  Every time I've used the Daily Plate, I've had surprises about what I've been eating.  I hadn't realized what a difference eating english muffins instead of bagels made.  I had no idea the bleu cheese I was dunking my buffalo wings into were giving me far more calories than the wings themselves.

If you want to lose a pound a week, you can eat 3000 calories a day.  That's a pretty satisfying amount.  If you want to be more aggressive, shoot for 2500 calories a day to lose two pounds a week.

I can imagine that 2500 calories will start to feel like a big drop in your current habits, which can be hard.  But that's where exercise comes in.  The more you exercise the more those calories burned offset your calorie restriction requirements, allowing you to either eat more food so it doesn't feel like you're always skimping, or allowing you to lose weight even more aggressively.

I've had great success using Daily Plate to lose weight.  I admittedly haven't had nearly as much to lose when I've done it, but I've generally lost weight fairly in line with what the calculations predicted each week.

Mind you, you can still use a food tracker like the Daily Plate or Weightwatcher points in conjunction with Atkins or Paleo or whatever.  Personally I think all these fad diets mainly succeed because they give a framework that makes it harder to overeat, and encourages healthier food.  I have a hard time believing that the bowl of steel cut oats I had for breakfast is an unhealthy thing, but I can see how ruling out steel cut oats and bagels, wonderbread, and cheese can make a difference in weight loss.

[Crux]

I'd drop PB&J like poison as all three are basically no good for you.

See this is the problem I'm having with you guys. You wouldn't be more wrong if you had said 2+2=5. Peanut butter is an excellent food. It has a lot of healthy fats, which you adore, of course, not to mention a good bit of protein. It's an amazing food for athletes and both pre and post exercise. You just can't eat a whole jar of the stuff.

It isn't really peanut butter that's the problem here cheeba. I'm not suggesting he cut any and all peanut butter out of his diet. I'm saying he shouldn't eat PB&J sandwiches

Zarkon, if you really love your peanut butter and you're able to keep it under control, then eat some here and there. But I'd recommend you just eat a little off a spoon, for taste. Don't sit there and munch on the stuff - just use it as a small, super-light snack to keep you going here and there. Or, have a little for desert after dinner. The key word is 'little'

[Zarkon]

Checked my jelly.  It's pure fruit so a serving has a total of 30 calories.  Granted, a lot of that is sugary, as I think it's like 12g per serving. 

Yes, PB&J would be like a once or twice a month thing, not routine.

[Crux]

Checked my jelly.  It's pure fruit so a serving has a total of 30 calories.  Granted, a lot of that is sugary, as I think it's like 12g per serving. 

Yes, PB&J would be like a once or twice a month thing, not routine.

Then not really a big deal. Understand though the better you start to eat, the more you will feel it when you eat poorly. The big thing you'll start to notice as you manage your insulin responses better is that if you do eat something you probably shouldn't, it'll hit you like a ton of bricks.

[Purge]

It's a large, though, not a small. 

Keep in mind that while the "calories in, calories out" method is a misapplied law of thermodynamics, one law is upheld - since you are bigger, your body will demand more.

Yeah... no.  Calorie needs calculators do take into account the higher needs of a higher weight body.  It's great that the Paleo diet is working for you, but you're really channeling the "Beware the man of one book" Aquinas quote with how much you're praising the one book you read over all other information that's out there.

I'm sure the Paleo diet is working great for a lot of people.  So have a lot of other diets, from the reasonable to the insane.  There's no one way that anyone can go "ah HA!  We've finally figured it out!" as you seem to have done with what's working for you.

The one unifier is that it really does come down to calories in, calories out.  I agree, the formulas and calorie estimators and all that don't get it exactly right, the process is more complex and all that, but generally if you take in more calories than your body is burning, you'll gain weight, and vice versa. 

No, I've been on many diets. I've tried many things, and have read many books. The thing that gets me is the hunger. It's a matter of understanding how our bodies use energy, and what is kicking out our own ability to regulate hunger vs. body needs for food.

[ravenvii]

Putting in your height and weight, guessing 30 for your age, the Daily Plate's estimate is that you need to consume 3481 calorie a day to maintain your weight.

Jesus H. Christ, I can't imagine eating nearly 3,500 calories everyday - even worse, casually!

And later you mentioned that he should *try* to drop it down to 3,000! My God people, what the fuck are you all eating?

I tried to up my calorie intake to 3,000 a day to gain weight. It was HARD. I had to *think* about food CONSTANTLY - eat, eat, eat. I had to bring food around with me to eat. I had to prepare food in advance so I can eat non-stop.

And I felt *horrible*. Bloated, lethargic and my digestive system craps out much more often than I'm comfortable with (not that I'm comfortable at all when it does crap out).

I'm most comfortable at about 1,500 calories a day. I can push it to 2,000 calories a day without feeling any worse. Anything over 2,500 and I feel like crap.

And I ain't on the paleo diet then, either. I eat McD's on occasion, and eat junk food in the front of the TV like anyone else. So I honestly don't know what you guys are stuffing yourselves with.

[ericb]

It's not that hard.  Take McDonalds...a 5 piece chicken strip meal with a med fry and med sweet tea is almost 1400 calories.  That's assuming you stay medium and don't large or supersize it.  An angus deluxe there is 750.  Many restaurant appetizers are over 1000 by themselves much less having a beer along with the main entree.  Or drinks...a 20 oz bottle of mountain dew is almost 300.  Hell, even a bowl of healthy cereal with skim milk and a piece of fruit can be over 500.  It's very, very easy to get eat that many calories especially if you throw in a couple snacks during the day.  Trust me...it's a great thing you have trouble eating that many calories a day but you are in a minority compared to the average person these days.  One of the benefits to the low carb is the protein fills you up and keeps you full.  People panic when they find out you're eating cheese, butter, bacon, meat, meat and more meat but after a few weeks you'd be surprised to find out you're now eating 2200 calories and feeling full the whole day when before you were eating 3500 and constantly "hungry".

[Crux]

Eating 3500 calories a day is easy. Eating 3500 quality calories a day is really hard work.

[wonderpug]

Putting in your height and weight, guessing 30 for your age, the Daily Plate's estimate is that you need to consume 3481 calorie a day to maintain your weight.

Jesus H. Christ, I can't imagine eating nearly 3,500 calories everyday - even worse, casually!

And later you mentioned that he should *try* to drop it down to 3,000! My God people, what the fuck are you all eating?

I tried to up my calorie intake to 3,000 a day to gain weight. It was HARD. I had to *think* about food CONSTANTLY - eat, eat, eat. I had to bring food around with me to eat. I had to prepare food in advance so I can eat non-stop.

Come on now.  He weighs 350 pounds and he's interested in losing weight.  Be nice.  Eating 3000 calories is a lot for you and me, but yes, it will help him lose weight.  Dropping calorie intake more or getting more exercise would make the weight come off even faster, but it's not as easy as "well just eat less!" or he wouldn't be in this situation and neither would so many other people like him also struggling with health and weight.

[Alefroth]

And for the record, Paleo and atkins are not the same thing. Paleo advocates no grains of any sort, along with no dairy. The reasons for this aren't directly related to calories or body weight, but that's really a separate discussion that I wouldn't want to derail this one with.

Correction: (AFAIK), dairy *are* allowed on the paleo diet, as long as you are not lactose-intolerant. Along with sugar and the ilk, the amounts has to be controlled, however.

The bad guys in the Paleo diet are grains and legumes.

Nope. Genuine paleo calls for no dairy. Eating dairy is the most common 'cheat' for paleo eaters however, because it doesn't have the same drastic effect on them that grains do after not eating them for a while. Even then, most hard-core paleo people will cheat with cream in their coffee, the idea being that cream is mostly fat and contains very little of the proteins that are in dairy that are considered 'bad'.

If they drink coffee, they're not on the paleo diet.

Coffee are made from coffee beans, which are legumes.

I did some Googling, and you're right; some paleo diet interpretations eliminate dairy, while some others accept limited amounts of dairy.

They all, however, say that grains and legumes are out. So if you eat legumes... sorry.

Whether it's allowed on the Paleo diet or not, coffee beans are not legumes. They are the seed of a fruit.

Ale

[cheeba]

Jesus H. Christ, I can't imagine eating nearly 3,500 calories everyday - even worse, casually!

And later you mentioned that he should *try* to drop it down to 3,000! My God people, what the fuck are you all eating?

I tried to up my calorie intake to 3,000 a day to gain weight. It was HARD. I had to *think* about food CONSTANTLY - eat, eat, eat. I had to bring food around with me to eat. I had to prepare food in advance so I can eat non-stop.

And I felt *horrible*. Bloated, lethargic and my digestive system craps out much more often than I'm comfortable with (not that I'm comfortable at all when it does crap out).

I'm most comfortable at about 1,500 calories a day. I can push it to 2,000 calories a day without feeling any worse. Anything over 2,500 and I feel like crap.

And I ain't on the paleo diet then, either. I eat McD's on occasion, and eat junk food in the front of the TV like anyone else. So I honestly don't know what you guys are stuffing yourselves with.

What a dickish post.

[rickfc]

Jesus H. Christ, I can't imagine eating nearly 3,500 calories everyday - even worse, casually!

And later you mentioned that he should *try* to drop it down to 3,000! My God people, what the fuck are you all eating?

I tried to up my calorie intake to 3,000 a day to gain weight. It was HARD. I had to *think* about food CONSTANTLY - eat, eat, eat. I had to bring food around with me to eat. I had to prepare food in advance so I can eat non-stop.

And I felt *horrible*. Bloated, lethargic and my digestive system craps out much more often than I'm comfortable with (not that I'm comfortable at all when it does crap out).

I'm most comfortable at about 1,500 calories a day. I can push it to 2,000 calories a day without feeling any worse. Anything over 2,500 and I feel like crap.

And I ain't on the paleo diet then, either. I eat McD's on occasion, and eat junk food in the front of the TV like anyone else. So I honestly don't know what you guys are stuffing yourselves with.

What a dickish post.

And then came the day when I agreed with cheeba... 

[Zarkon]

Actually, I'm 39.  So my # of calories to stay where I'm at is 2900 or so.  My goal is 2500, but really should be about 2000 a day.  It's going to be a pain, I know.  Right now I'm waiting for payday so I can afford to stock up on meats, cheeses, veggies and fruit (as while I have canned veggies and some frozen meat, I don't have much fresh).

Then...it begins.

So, tea with honey.  Still bad for me, right?  (And I can't stand artificial sweeteners, including Splenda/stevia.

[pr0ner]

Keep in mind that while the "calories in, calories out" method is a misapplied law of thermodynamics,

 

[ravenvii]

Actually, I'm 39.  So my # of calories to stay where I'm at is 2900 or so.  My goal is 2500, but really should be about 2000 a day.  It's going to be a pain, I know.  Right now I'm waiting for payday so I can afford to stock up on meats, cheeses, veggies and fruit (as while I have canned veggies and some frozen meat, I don't have much fresh).

Then...it begins.

So, tea with honey.  Still bad for me, right?  (And I can't stand artificial sweeteners, including Splenda/stevia.

IMO, no. Bad for your teeth and a variety of other things, but honey is a naturally-occurring food, not man-made like Splenda et al. It's better to eat real sugar than any of that crap, even though sugar does have more calories.

Re: responses to my post: maybe my post was dickish, but all of it was true, and I was genuinely puzzled at how anyone could consume 3,500 calories like it's nothing.

Someone gave McD's hamburgers as an example. A Big Mac is also 750 calories. If I eat that three times a day, it's 2,200 calories. Add in a large mountain dew (yes, one - I can't imagine drinking more than one in a given day), that's like, 2,500. And I'd like like absolute shit. I wouldn't be surprised if I will end up on the toilet dumping all of that calories out my ass, so it wouldn't even be 2,500 calories, either.

That 1,000 calorie appetizer at restaurants? Usually I share appetizers, so it's actually 300 or so calories. If I eat the whole thing myself, that'd be the main meal. And I'd likely be too full for the *next* meal too - which knocks at least 500 calories off my daily intake.

How I (and often failed to) reached the magical 3,000 when I tried (and failed miserably) to gain weight: 700-calorie breakfast, 300-calorie snack, 600-calorie lunch, 300-calorie snack, 500-calorie dinner, 300 calorie snack. That's 2,700 calories. If I timed it right and had the last 300 calories about 2-3 hours before bed, I knew I'd made it: one last 300-calorie snack before bed. Most of the time, I didn't make it.

And that's a *lot* of food, man.

I quit because 1) I feel heavy/bloated and tired all the time, and 2) because I got tired of having to think about food all the time (example, I'd be playing an engrossing game, then BAM "shit it's been 3 hours already, I gotta prepare something to eat, else I won't be able to fit all this into the day." It's like that medicine the doctor gives you for something and tells you to "take it every 4 hours." It's annoying like hell,) and finally, 3) I realized I'm draining the bank by buying all that food. Food is fucking expensive those days. I'd rather spend that on fun stuff - tech and games, yea?

[wonderpug]

Here's a 3500+ calorie day of eating I just threw together on Daily Plate that I don't think is too hard to imagine an average American consuming:

Breakfast at home
Coffee with cream & sugar - 120 calories
Bagel - 370
cream cheese - 180
Extra cup of coffee when you get to work - 120

Lunch
Quarter Pounder w/ Cheese - 530
Medium fries - 380
Medium coke - 210
Coke refill - 210

Dinner
Three slices of a large pepperoni pizza - 1080 calories
Bottle of beer with dinner - 160
Another beer afterward - 160

Totals:
Breakfast - 810 calories
Lunch - 1330 calories
Dinner - 1400 calories

Grand Total: 3540 calories

[hepcat]

Where's dessert?

[Morgul]

Where's dessert?

+1

This is America damn it, we want pie after supper.   With a scoop of ice cream.

[Purge]

Keep in mind that while the "calories in, calories out" method is a misapplied law of thermodynamics,

 

Way to contribute.

I'm going to take the high road and perhaps an extrapolation will help you out of your ": retard :" thinking. The idea behind the statement is that not all calories are equal, nor do their sources impact your system the same way.

If I were to drop a ton on you from 100ft in the air, would you like it in bricks or feathers? Which has more impact?

Also, did you bother to read / listen / check out the coles notes on the ideas presented in the book?

[CeeKay]

Breakfast at home
Coffee with cream & sugar - 120 calories
Bagel - 370
cream cheese - 180
Extra cup of coffee when you get to work - 120

Lunch
Quarter Pounder w/ Cheese - 530
Medium fries - 380
Medium coke - 210
Coke refill - 210

Dinner
Three slices of a large pepperoni pizza - 1080 calories
Bottle of beer with dinner - 160
Another beer afterward - 160
Another beer afterward - 160
Another beer afterward - 160
Another beer afterward - 160
Another beer afterward - 160
Another beer afterward - 160
Another beer afterward - 160
Another beer afterward - 160

FTFY

[hepcat]

you're 4 beers short...

[pr0ner]

Keep in mind that while the "calories in, calories out" method is a misapplied law of thermodynamics,

 

Way to contribute.

I'm going to take the high road and perhaps an extrapolation will help you out of your ": retard :" thinking. The idea behind the statement is that not all calories are equal, nor do their sources impact your system the same way.

If I were to drop a ton on you from 100ft in the air, would you like it in bricks or feathers? Which has more impact?

Also, did you bother to read / listen / check out the coles notes on the ideas presented in the book?

Arguing physics principles with a physicist is a losing proposition, Purge.

Calories are a measure of energy.  An empty calorie provides the same amount of energy as any other calorie.  Ergo, there is no misapplied law of thermodynamics, as from an energy point of view, all calories are created equal.

As for your other question, the answer is neither, as both objects would both have the same "impact" due to their equal mass.

In conclusion, your little extrapolation has failed.  Sorry.

[Isgrimnur]

Which is exactly the tenets of the Hacker's Diet.  I really hate it when people make me agree with Pr0ner.

[pr0ner]

Which is exactly the tenets of the Hacker's Diet.  I really hate it when people make me agree with Pr0ner.

I win again!   

[Purge]

Keep in mind that while the "calories in, calories out" method is a misapplied law of thermodynamics,

 

Way to contribute.

I'm going to take the high road and perhaps an extrapolation will help you out of your ": retard :" thinking. The idea behind the statement is that not all calories are equal, nor do their sources impact your system the same way.

If I were to drop a ton on you from 100ft in the air, would you like it in bricks or feathers? Which has more impact?

Also, did you bother to read / listen / check out the coles notes on the ideas presented in the book?

Arguing physics principles with a physicist is a losing proposition, Purge.

Calories are a measure of energy.  An empty calorie provides the same amount of energy as any other calorie.  Ergo, there is no misapplied law of thermodynamics, as from an energy point of view, all calories are created equal.

As for your other question, the answer is neither, as both objects would both have the same "impact" due to their equal mass.

In conclusion, your little extrapolation has failed.  Sorry.

Really? So the rate of descent is the same, and the impact and surface area are also the same? So resistance and things like wind wouldn't be a factor in the feathers then?

You must be brilliant.

Also, since 1:1, I bet you can just fuel your gas car with diesel with no adverse effects, right? Yep, everything is 1:1.

Oh, and as a physicist, that makes you an endocrinologist too, so you have an acute understanding of how hormones control bodies.

The question that scientists miss isn't HOW people get fat, it is WHY.

You must know how they measure caloric value in foods, right? By BURNING IT. Yep, that's how your body processes it too - so clearly you can munch on a log for your caloric intake, and it's the same damned thing.


Come on over for a snack, I've got a cord of wood out back.

[hepcat]

Children, children, children...can we just agree that Isgrimnur is a two fisted drinking machine placed here for the pleasure of women everywhere and just move on?

[Purge]

Yep. Same as I can agree that people who claim their parents are nurses are clearly adept at handing out medical advice.

[Crux]

Proner, I'm a physicist too and I think you're wrong on both counts.

For one, the terminal velocity of feathers is significantly lower, so the impact is not the same - momentum is mass times velocity, after all

For second, what Purge is really getting at I think (and hope) is that calories put into your mouth, and calories absorbed/used by your body are not the same number. They vary, depending on the content of those calories. Now it's not so dramatic as to say that 10 calories of sugar is worth 1000 calories of protein or the like. But it is not a zero sum game.

Your body's digestive system releases difference chemicals for different food types. Insulin is released in response to the ingestion of sugar (technically to elevated glucose levels in the blood, but you get the drift). Proteins are instead broken down by enzymes known as proteases. The proteases break the proteins down into amino acids, which are the building blocks of the body.

It is far more complex than simply calories in vs calories out. But for the average person dealing in macro terms you can treat it that simply the majority of the time. You only need to begin to understand the complexities of it if you are seeking peak performance, be it athletic performance, or peak weight loss.

[Purge]

Crux, that is exactly what I was getting at.

Calorie is a measurement of potential energy: key word being potential. The number of calories you ingest are not the same number of calories your body metabolizes. Look at fibre - it is a carbohydrate that isn't broken down by the stomach, and only some of the complex carbs get absorbed by intestinal walls. There is a reason it is called roughage.

[Crux]

In the interests of disclosure, I should add that I have never read Purge's book that he's been talking about.

[ravenvii]

Here's a 3500+ calorie day of eating I just threw together on Daily Plate that I don't think is too hard to imagine an average American consuming:

Breakfast at home
Coffee with cream & sugar - 120 calories
Bagel - 370
cream cheese - 180
Extra cup of coffee when you get to work - 120

Lunch
Quarter Pounder w/ Cheese - 530
Medium fries - 380
Medium coke - 210
Coke refill - 210

Dinner
Three slices of a large pepperoni pizza - 1080 calories
Bottle of beer with dinner - 160
Another beer afterward - 160

Totals:
Breakfast - 810 calories
Lunch - 1330 calories
Dinner - 1400 calories

Grand Total: 3540 calories

Hahaha you make it sound so easy. So easy I think my body would actually take that for a day or two.

I concede my point, however - that does sound like the quintessential American diet.

Which is scary, really, if you think about it...

[pr0ner]

Meh.

[Purge]

Meh.

[Eightball]

Also, ditch the artificial sweeteners - they will still give you the insulin spike of real sugar, and it messes with your system in a big way.

That really got me curious.  Doing a pub med search of in vivo trials came up with this study that showed otherwise.  Do you have any pk studies showing otherwisev(and no, I'm not really interested in in vitro trials)?

Should be easy to prove; simple clamp study should do it.  From a biological standpoint it doesn't make much sense, as beta cells release insulin in response to the presence of carbohydrates (not just sugar as you posted separately).  Artificial sweeteners aren't carbs, so I'd be surprised if that was really true.

[pr0ner]

Meh.

You're still wrong - I just don't care enough to spell it out.

[Rowdy]

Meh.

You're still wrong - I just don't care enough to spell it out.

 

[Z-Corn]

Whether it's allowed on the Paleo diet or not, coffee beans are not legumes. They are the seed of a fruit.

Ale

Thank you for that correction!  That was buggin' me as I caught up on this topic...

[Crux]

Also, ditch the artificial sweeteners - they will still give you the insulin spike of real sugar, and it messes with your system in a big way.

That really got me curious.  Doing a pub med search of in vivo trials came up with this study that showed otherwise.  Do you have any pk studies showing otherwisev(and no, I'm not really interested in in vitro trials)?

Should be easy to prove; simple clamp study should do it.  From a biological standpoint it doesn't make much sense, as beta cells release insulin in response to the presence of carbohydrates (not just sugar as you posted separately).  Artificial sweeteners aren't carbs, so I'd be surprised if that was really true.

I find it interesting the study you linked listed significantly increased plasma phenylalanine concentrations as a result of ingested aspartame, and then conclude that it has no effects, when elevated pp levels have been associated with mood swings.

Interestingly though, in looking the only studies I've found monitoring in vivo blood sugar and insulin levels find aspartame has little or no effect. I wonder if the link between artificial sweeteners and body weight has more to do with the fact that aspartame etc are used in more heavily processed foods, which tend to be more calorie dense.

Although there is that link between people switching from diet soda to regular soda losing weight too. I'm now greatly curious as to what causes it. Thanks for that though Eightball - dispelled a long-standing myth I've heard and repeated.