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Author Topic: [Lifestyle] Breaking my addiction to white powders (sugar, flour).  (Read 5966 times)
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Purge
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« on: September 02, 2011, 05:11:37 PM »

A friend of mine once said that the first step to breaking an addiction is to tell people about your addiction and to be honest about it with everyone you know.

Well, I've been addicted to a prolific drug for as long as I can remember, in a terribly vicious cycle and I'm breaking the habit. I quit once before, and it made a huge impact for me. I'm now 3 days dry, and while there is easy temptation, I will no longer allow this white powder to dominate my life and drive me to my early grave.

I've been listening to an audio book which has helped me see past all the bad advice, and the misinformation about what my body truly needs.

Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It [Audiobook, Unabridged]

I used to be 365lbs (52.4 BMI). Right now I'm 270(38.7 BMI) - two years ago I struggled with a diet plan that got me down to 250, but I just couldn't maintain it at the time (due to a horrid amount of stress which I'm not prepared to go into ATM). I'm not a big fan of the BMI, but it illustrates how much fat I was carrying. At 5'10", that was a lot of weight to carry. People who knew me then don't recognize me now (and the reverse was also true).

The basic premise of this book is that it is NOT a diet book, but a book about the science of energy storage and the way in what we eat affects it. It covers a range of 200 years of research, and how we've come to be a "low fat" society. It's about 7 hours long (audio book), and I strongly recommend that people at least give it a listen to (or a read). Even if you aren't overweight, this is about the health risks of how we as a society have adopted a food source that lines us up with heart failure, diabetes, cancer, asthma, etc.

I have already lost a significant amount of weight on this type of diet, although the focus was on more protein, which can be risky and certainly too much dietary protein is toxic. The indication is that we should be carb-free (or have it severely reduced) as opposed to having recommendations from the American Medical Association recommending that almost 60% of our daily caloric intake being something our body doesn't want or need.

Gary Taubes uses science and history, as well as facts of how our low-fat culture came to be to prove the "Eat less, Move more" is not only impractical for weight loss, but harmful. Gluttony and Sloth are symptoms of obesity, not the cause, and that endocrinology, not psychology, controls our appetites. Starvation and exercise, an act of creating even more demand for more calories, isn't a healthy approach to weight loss. Laws of Thermodynamics aren't being applied properly with calorie counting, and this is a key failure.

I'm sharing this with you all because I am passionate about this, and the evidence is compelling. No fads, no gimmicks. Simply put, I'm going to be putting the right fuel in the tank. Our culture has set up diet to mean starvation (to deny ones hunger) and to blame people for being weak. I'm done with it, and I've challenged myself to overcome the cognitive dissonance of going against everything I've been taught, and instead to embrace a high-fat, low carb diet.

I will still eat leafy greens, but I'll be ordering steak with the fatter pieces, and eating until sated. I will train my body to drop its use of insulin, and in doing so prevent further harm. I will continue to work out, simply because I enjoy it, however I will not be "taking the stairs" as some token physical activity to drive further weight loss.

As my digestive and circulatory systems correct themselves, I can expect my energy level to go up, and my drive to get off my ass should increase. I will eat and be satisfied and generally remain in ketogenic state (as we do at night when our glycemic index drops due to no carbs being added). Keep in mind that this isn't starvation.

If you want to contest what I've put forward, I appreciate it. But, you need to understand the facts, which means you need to do your homework.

Check out the book, either audio, online or legacy paper edition. Near the end of the book he comments on similar diets (eg : Atkins, Protein Power (which is what I had followed back in early-to-mid 2000's) and South Beach to name a few. They are not all the same, and some have failures to recognize key elements to success, including not enough fat, caloric restrictions, etc.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 03:24:42 AM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 05:16:49 PM »

You're addicted to sugar? flour? I'm confused. Is this post an euphemism that you're doing cocaine?  icon_razz
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 05:21:24 PM »

Quote from: PR_GMR on September 02, 2011, 05:16:49 PM

You're addicted to sugar? flour? I'm confused. Is this post an euphemism that you're doing cocaine?  icon_razz

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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 05:38:23 PM »

Quote from: PR_GMR on September 02, 2011, 05:16:49 PM

You're addicted to sugar? flour? I'm confused. Is this post an euphemism that you're doing cocaine?  icon_razz

Both. I'm not addicted to cocaine, although the title may suggest it. biggrin
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 06:22:07 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 05:54:11 PM »

I'm at about the same weight. Went on Atkins for a while (no flour!) and it proved to be incredibly tough to follow - but it works. When we wen tout to eat I had to skip the bread on the hamburger and couldn't get fries to go with the meal.. then one day at work, a buddy of mine said life was too short enjoy those fries because you only live once.
Ended up eating the french fries and giving up on Atkins. (And damn did the fries taste good!  icon_biggrin)

I started thinking about how short life really was, and how lost time is one thing we never get back.. and then my captain at work grabbed a Dr.Pepper (he usually drank two a shift) and being somewhat on Atkins (only diet soda) and dying for a regular pepsi he said something similar. He said you have to enjoy the things you like in life and his guilty pleasure was Dr Pepper.
He was in his 60s, about 30 pounds over weight, but been drinking them since he was a kid. He's still kicking and has no problem throwing down with inmates (or sexually violent predators in our case) that are 3 times as young as him.
Grabbed a pepsi that day (after not having one in ages) and was amazed at how great it tasted after so long.

I don't want to say my life was 'incomplete' or I was missing things, but coming back to flour and sugar, has made me so much more happier and I really enjoy life so much more than when I wasn't eating/drinking them.
I'm a little over weight, but so is half the country. I've been at about 260 for a while, not going up or down. If ever start getting too big where they'll have to cut the doors down to get me out of the house, then yeah, I've got a problem.. but in the mean time, I'm going to enjoy my life here and now, and if that includes a pepsi every now and then, or french fries, then so be it.. it makes me feel good knowing I can order whatever I want on the menu these days.

I think my final kick was the song 'live like you're dying' and that song really hits home.. not just with flour, but everything in life. You could be hit by a car tomrrow. Hepcat could be getting a BJ from a BBW while driving his ice cream truck and not paying attention to the road in front of him while you're crossing and then BAM!
Point is, life is short is no matter how you look at it, and in my field of work I could be gone tomorrow I know that, we've found so many shanks and weapons out here it's unbelievable.

Why live like a health nazi when you really never know if tomorrow will come or not?

And besides, I don't think I want to be 100 and walking around with a cane in my retirement home no longer really able to enjoy life anyway. And even if I do live to that age then so be it. Your time comes when it comes, whether you're 30 or 100 or anytime in between.

For those that do like to live without all the 'good' foods then I have respect for that, but for me, I think I'll keep enjoying my 'white powder' because after having been off it so long on Atkins and always wanting it and having to fight the cravings daily, to going back to it and feeling great.. well, I think I'll keep living here and now. 'Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow.' sums up my belief fairly well.

As Al Bundy once summed up..

Quote
AL)     C'mon, everybody, family meeting. [they all sit] Now, Peg, I know you think you're
        responsible for killing Jim. And yet you have no guilt of squashing the life out of me,
        but that's another meeting. Anyway, what I'm saying is, you didn't kill Jim. Good health
        killed Jim. See, he purified his body so completely, that when finally called on to do
        so, he couldn't handle the grease and sugar and toxic waste that we call food. He
        rendered himself extinct. See, healthy people are like dinosaurs. They're not fit to
        survive. Jim's body couldn't the burgers and bonbons and pastry suckin's like real
        Americans. You see, Peg, WE are the truly strong.

PEGGY)  You really think so, Al?

AL)     Absolutely. See that cockroach over there?

PEGGY)  [points] That one?

AL)     [points] No, that one. Well, any one of them. You don't see them carrying of a can of
        Wheat Germ, do you?

KELLY)  Gurm, Dad.

AL)     Thank you, Pumpkin. Anyhow, Peg, let's follow the example of our friend the cockroach.
        They were before man, they'll be here after man. You know why? They eat crap. And I say,
        if it's good enough for the cockroach, then it's good enough for my family!

They all seem to agree with this statement.

PEGGY)  Oh Al, you really do care.

AL)     Yeah, darn right I do. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm hungry
        enough to block a colon! Grease burgers for everyone, on Dad! What do you say?

They all excitedly get up and head out the door.
The shout things like "Grease!" "Lard!", etc, leaving the living room bare.

Text on screen:
"This show is dedicated to our brother, The Mighty Cockroach. Let him show us the way."
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 06:27:38 PM »

Thing is, I get to eat fat and lard and grease. I get to eat the cheese, and even have a bit of tomato and lettuce and onions.

I just skip the bun, and I've already stopped eating condiments long ago (I don't smoke, I rarely drink, and I very rarely partake in the good kind of smoke ... like maybe twice a year).

Also, the Atkins diet had restrictions - this is hedonistic - follow your hunger, just stay away from that which fools it (simple carbs). I may re-introduce some later in life, but I can put that away to get down to a healthy weight with more energy and more get-up-and-go.

For lunch today I ate 8 meatballs, a little bit of curry chicken, and a piece of pork loin (with all that tasty fat).

I'm not hungry, and I don't feel gross. I feel... almost normal. The only thing wrong is that I had to pass a lot of carbs to get that food, and a part of me wanted to grab potatoes.

CR, I totally respect your opinion on the subject, but I would urge you to give the book a listen.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 06:30:11 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 06:43:42 PM »

I started off weighing slightly more than you, though lower BMI because I'm a couple inches taller. I've lost over 120 lbs so far.

My findings are that carbs get an awfully bad rap that's unjustified. Carbohydrates are not inherently evil. Processed carbohydrates, however, should be minimized.

Since dieting/weight loss is right up there with religion and politics, I'm not going to get too into it. No one's mind is going to change. My feelings briefly are:
1) If you're not exercising then you are living life wrong.
2) Carbs are fuel.
3) Carbs should most definitely be consumed after exercise.
4) Protein should most definitely be consumed after exercise.
5) Processed foods are bad. If you stay mostly away from processed foods (you can't do it entirely unless you're a nut) then you don't really need to worry about carbs.
6) Fat does not make you fat. Fat does, however, have a lot of calories.
7) Any diet that tells you to eliminate something is bad. Sweet potatoes have ~24g of carbs. If a diet tells you to stay away from sweet potatoes, it is wrong. If a diet tells you not to eat an apple or banana, it is wrong.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 06:46:09 PM by cheeba » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 06:45:05 PM »

Absolutely, I actually already ordered the audiobook before even replying. I'm very open-minded and am not trying to talk anyone out of their diet..just why I choose not not to be a health nazi. (I don't smoke and very rarely drink, talking more about food.)

Yes you are right what you are describing sounds almost exactly like what I used to eat. I went through 20 naked wings one night for dinner, Atkins really gives you the power to eat as much as you want and still lose weight. As with you, it's that need for potatoes (maybe my Irish background) that finally said the hell with it, life's too short eat those fries!
I had a baked potato from wendy's for lunch today that I never would have been able to do under Atkins, and loved every bit of it.  icon_biggrin

Still though, respect your decision and your lifestyle, absolutely nothing wrong with it at all. I look forward to listening to the audio cd when it gets here.

 
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2011, 06:46:34 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on September 02, 2011, 06:43:42 PM

Sweet potatoes have ~24g of carbs. If a diet tells you to stay away from sweet potatoes, it is wrong.

So then...

The Sweet Potato Diet must be the most right diet of all!

Quote
I had to have a six-pack on show. My trainer said to eat nothing apart from sweet potato and very little water. The potato acts as a sponge and your body literally shrinks and gets ripped and tight.
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2011, 07:01:16 PM »

Quote
And besides, I don't think I want to be 100 and walking around with a cane in my retirement home no longer really able to enjoy life anyway.

My grandfather lived to be 95, and was spry and active until his last 6 months.  If attaining that myself means giving up processed grains and sugars (I'm currently on the Paleo diet, similar to what Purge is describing), I'll gladly do it - there's definitely a correlation between weight and lifespan/quality of life in the later years.  

Doesn't mean I won't enjoy a slice of birthday cake every now and then, but there is *FAR* too much crap in the average American diet, and we do pay for it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 07:03:28 PM by Laner » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2011, 07:20:16 PM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on September 02, 2011, 05:54:11 PM

I'm at about the same weight. Went on Atkins for a while (no flour!) and it proved to be incredibly tough to follow - but it works.

Any diet will work for as long as you can stand to follow it. Personally, I love carbohydrates too much to ever even try going that route. I maintain a healthy weight just by controlling portions and exercising. I live mostly on vegetables during gardening season. If I'm chronically 15 pounds overweight, that's clearly Mr Beer's fault. Life without beer would not be worth living.
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2011, 07:32:32 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on September 02, 2011, 06:46:34 PM

The Sweet Potato Diet must be the most right diet of all!

Quote
I had to have a six-pack on show. My trainer said to eat nothing apart from sweet potato and very little water. The potato acts as a sponge and your body literally shrinks and gets ripped and tight.

Holy shit! I hope nobody actually follows that "diet", as it's actually lethal. Yeah, you'll lose weight by dehydrating yourself, but it'll be all water and you'll eventually end up very sick or dead.
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 08:05:30 PM »

Fructose is something your body turns into fat in your liver. HFCS 55 is only 55% Fructose, with another 42% being glucose.

Fructose in fruit itself (such as apples) isn't nearly as intense or prolific however fruit brings in sugars. One of the points that Gary makes is that fruit, while part of a paleo diet, was never a requirement or staple, and wasn't generally isn't available year-round.

At this point in my life, I need to cleanse my body of the carbohydrates. Since fruit doesn't give me anything I need (once again, covered in the book including the Vitamin C argument) that I can't get from fats, leafy greens and protein-rich foods, I am willing to not let it hinder me.

The sugars within, at my point in this, could derail the overarching change I'm making since I'm trying to not only eat better for my body (and its weaknesses and strengths), but also to break the chemical dependencies that stimulate my beta endorphin receptor sites.

I do believe the human race can change its genetics to overcome the higher carb intake, but if you consider the path of evolution, the more drastic the change, the greater the death toll. (Stephen King's The Stand is a good example - where a small part of the population has the genetic disposition to survive a lethal environmental attack, man-altered-flu-virus in this case, but most of the population can't).

Our mortality rate and growth of health issues including child asthma, mental disorders including depression, Alzheimer's, schizophrenia etc... have all been on the rise. Despite the workout industry seeing tremendous growth the rate of various cancers, heart and stroke related deaths continue to climb.

As Mr. Taubes outlines in his books (There is also Good Calories, Bad Calories which is more medical and not as easily digested), the cause of obesity and these continued issues with serious diseases will not affect our populations uniformly; not every smoker gets lung cancer, but being a smoker certainly puts that real risk into your life.

As to the physical exercise, it is good for me for reasons other than weight loss. Taking the stairs trains my body to handle stairs better. I've been doing it for years, and while I've noticed a small change in how out-of-breath I get (and a slightly shortened recovery time).

I'd rather strength train, and in 20lbs or so, take up jogging again because I would LOVE to be able to run and feel the rush. It has nothing to do with my waistline though, and separating that connection is important. I cycle to work every day (~7mi each way) and I do it at an average of 20mph. I'm pretty strong for my height - I leg press well over 1000lbs and have, at my peak, been able to bench 325lbs.

It's not the greatest ever though, and while I want to be muscular I'd rather just be strong and lean than bulky and pudgy.

Right now I'm obese. I need to get myself to a place where I can not have to worry about my health, and I don't want to suffer through constant hunger to get there.
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 08:05:58 PM »

Quote from: Purge on September 02, 2011, 06:27:38 PM

Thing is, I get to eat fat and lard and grease. I get to eat the cheese, and even have a bit of tomato and lettuce and onions.

I just skip the bun, and I've already stopped eating condiments long ago (I don't smoke, I rarely drink, and I very rarely partake in the good kind of smoke ... like maybe twice a year).

Also, the Atkins diet had restrictions - this is hedonistic - follow your hunger, just stay away from that which fools it (simple carbs). I may re-introduce some later in life, but I can put that away to get down to a healthy weight with more energy and more get-up-and-go.

For lunch today I ate 8 meatballs, a little bit of curry chicken, and a piece of pork loin (with all that tasty fat).

While you may lose some weight eliminating carbs, you should probably monitor your cholesterol regularly with that sort of diet. And since when did vegetables become something that should be avoided? You'll be lacking essential vitamins, minerals, and nutrients if you aren't eating vegetables regularly.
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2011, 08:10:21 PM »

Quote from: Purge on September 02, 2011, 08:05:30 PM

One of the points that Gary makes is that fruit, while part of a paleo diet, was never a requirement or staple, and wasn't generally isn't available year-round.

This isn't accurate. Think about where and from what animals humans evolved. Evolutionarily, our digestive system for the most part has evolved to eat plenty of fruit. If you don't agree, look at the diet of chimps - they live in the tropics and eat fruit year round (along with leafy greens and insects, mainly).
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2011, 08:20:15 PM »

You know Atkins and other low carb diets get a lot of grief but there are long term studies out now (10+ years) and the findings do hold up.  I know when I cut most carbs out almost everything wrong with me physically starts to go away (shortness of breath, extreme bloating, muscle cramps, low energy level, etc).  I also tend to drop the weight much quicker than any other way.
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2011, 08:43:59 PM »

Not to mention the PURGE diet also reduces gluten intake which is the culprit in so many disorders.
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2011, 10:40:51 PM »

I've personally been largely following the Primal Blueprint for about a year now, which is basically paleo with some small tweaks.  I love it and have never been in better shape.  This recipe book is the best I've ever used, and nearly everything I've made so far has been fantastic. 

I also leave Saturdays as an "anything goes" day to round things out.  I think it's really important to admit right up front that no one's perfect, and set aside time to do what you want.  My experience with myself as well as overweight friends is that if you let yourself snack whenever you feel it, you will inevitably go overboard.
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2011, 12:26:04 AM »

Kath, how hard you rate the recipes in that book? I'm a terrible chef, and my wife isn't much better, but those amazon reviews have my interest peeked. 1-10, what'd you guess to execute properly?
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« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2011, 12:43:45 AM »

Quote from: Purge on September 02, 2011, 08:05:30 PM

Our mortality rate and growth of health issues including child asthma, mental disorders including depression, Alzheimer's, schizophrenia etc... have all been on the rise.

Are you trying to draw a correlation between these diseases and carbs?
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2011, 02:27:35 AM »

Quote from: godhugh on September 03, 2011, 12:43:45 AM

Quote from: Purge on September 02, 2011, 08:05:30 PM

Our mortality rate and growth of health issues including child asthma, mental disorders including depression, Alzheimer's, schizophrenia etc... have all been on the rise.

Are you trying to draw a correlation between these diseases and carbs?

I wouldn't say carbs...but I could see a correlation between our current diet (and lack of exercise) and the rise of diseases and ailments starting in childhood.  Of course there are so many factors (rise of antibacterial soups, pollution, genetics, diet, mutation of existing and new diseases, etc) that it would be almost impossible to have a conclusive correlation.

I think nutrition and health is still poorly understood and we'll look back 30 years from now and wonder what the hell we were thinking.
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« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2011, 02:53:18 AM »

Quote from: Laner on September 02, 2011, 07:01:16 PM



Doesn't mean I won't enjoy a slice of birthday cake every now and then, but there is *FAR* too much crap in the average American diet, and we do pay for it.

If you are strict with your paleo for a month or so, you'll find even a small slice of cake will make you feel sick. Just fair warning smile

I ate straight paleo for six months straight and it was fantastic. Then I relapsed and have been sporadic with it in the last couple of months. Fat is an infinitely better source of calories than processed carbs by and large. I've never met a single person who was genuinely paleo and who wasn't healthy, and either at a healthy weight or on their way to one. The simple fact is, it works and it makes you feel great. No ifs, ands or buts. And yes, it requires you to eliminate some food sources, so according to Cheeba it must be bad for you despite lowering basically every marker of ill health known to modern medicine biggrin
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« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2011, 04:09:00 AM »

Quote from: godhugh on September 03, 2011, 12:43:45 AM

Quote from: Purge on September 02, 2011, 08:05:30 PM

Our mortality rate and growth of health issues including child asthma, mental disorders including depression, Alzheimer's, schizophrenia etc... have all been on the rise.

Are you trying to draw a correlation between these diseases and carbs?

Not me, science.

Get the audio book or read it. Everything that is said is backed up with results and studies. Fact of the matter is that we, as a populous are deteriorating at a tremendous rate. We have been led to believe the AMA knows what they're doing, but it's a falsehood. They should swallow pride and focus efforts on trying to find out what CAN be done.

We need to let go of the "move more" concept. It does not create any significant weight loss because any additional energy expended drives fuel demands and doesn't create a healthy deficit. Fat burning requires reduced insulin levels, and if you're hungry, it is your body telling you to eat.
Carbs f$&@ with that whole process - sloth and glut aren't cause of obesity- they are a side effect that keeps you there, coupled by the craving for sugars and carbs.

Getting on a treadmill is training your muscles to do something, but instead people got it in their head that this somehow uses the law of thermodynamics to gain advantage in weight loss.

If you don't sate hunger, you risk a hormonal response that will begin storing energy. Your body already knows about your fat stores, and will use them when you are meeting IRS needs.
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« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2011, 04:10:35 AM »

Its, not IRS. Tapatalk + iPhone FTW.
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« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2011, 04:13:44 AM »

Quote from: Purge on September 03, 2011, 04:09:00 AM

We need to let go of the "move more" concept. It does not create any significant weight loss because any additional energy expended drives fuel demands and doesn't create a healthy deficit. Fat burning requires reduced insulin levels, and if you're hungry, it is your body telling you to eat.
Carbs f$&@ with that whole process - sloth and glut aren't cause of obesity- they are a side effect that keeps you there, coupled by the craving for sugars and carbs.

Getting on a treadmill is training your muscles to do something, but instead people got it in their head that this somehow uses the law of thermodynamics to gain advantage in weight loss.

We need to let go of the... exercise concept?
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« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2011, 04:52:54 AM »

Exercise as a key to weight loss.
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« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2011, 05:39:06 AM »

Quote from: Purge on September 03, 2011, 04:09:00 AM

We need to let go of the "move more" concept. It does not create any significant weight loss because any additional energy expended drives fuel demands and doesn't create a healthy deficit.

Oh bullshit. Stop talking in absolutes, first of all. Nothing is absolute in dieting and what may work for one person may not work for another. The only absolute is that absolutes are bad (wrap your head around that! slywink).

Second of all, you cannot advocate a more paleo diet without also advocating exercise. The paleo diet fad says that we need to eat like the cavemen ancestors from which we've evolved. But these cavemen exercised a shit ton. They roamed and foraged and hunted and didn't sit around playing Deus Ex all day.

Third of all, I'm living proof that the above quote is bullshit. I've lost fricking 122 lbs and it all began with exercise and exercise has been absolutely integral to my weight loss throughout my 16 months of losing weight. I've logged my progress every week for that whole time on OO and can show that, without fail, if I don't get exercise, I do not have a good week of weight loss. For me - note that part, it's important - I get less hungry after I exercise. I will also eat with my exercise in mind - if I'm going running I'm sure as hell not going to eat 8 meatballs and a pork tenderloin beforehand.

I eat a ton of carbs. But as I said, I don't eat much processed carbs. I eat a whole bunch of fruit. I exercise. A lot. Carbs aid in the recovery and fueling of that exercise. It works for me. It may not work for you.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 05:41:55 AM by cheeba » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2011, 07:30:51 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on September 03, 2011, 05:39:06 AM

Oh bullshit. Stop talking in absolutes, first of all. Nothing is absolute in dieting and what may work for one person may not work for another. The only absolute is that absolutes are bad (wrap your head around that! slywink).

 Roll Eyes

Quote
Second of all, you cannot advocate a more paleo diet without also advocating exercise. The paleo diet fad says that we need to eat like the cavemen ancestors from which we've evolved. But these cavemen exercised a shit ton. They roamed and foraged and hunted and didn't sit around playing Deus Ex all day.

Yes, you can. Exercise might enhance results, but it is by no means a requirement. One lady I worked with on her weight loss involved me putting her on a paleo diet and reducing her exercise to almost nil. She lost 45 pounds in 4 months, and felt great the entire time while doing it. Now that her weight is healthier, she can exercise consistently and everything gets easier. She wasn't even obese, weighing in at 185 lbs at the beginning.

Quote
Third of all, I'm living proof that the above quote is bullshit. I've lost fricking 122 lbs and it all began with exercise and exercise has been absolutely integral to my weight loss throughout my 16 months of losing weight. I've logged my progress every week for that whole time on OO and can show that, without fail, if I don't get exercise, I do not have a good week of weight loss. For me - note that part, it's important - I get less hungry after I exercise. I will also eat with my exercise in mind - if I'm going running I'm sure as hell not going to eat 8 meatballs and a pork tenderloin beforehand.

I eat a ton of carbs. But as I said, I don't eat much processed carbs. I eat a whole bunch of fruit. I exercise. A lot. Carbs aid in the recovery and fueling of that exercise. It works for me. It may not work for you.

Have you stopped for a moment and considered that perhaps exercise is so critical to your personal weight-loss experience because of your diet? That perhaps if you changed the way you ate you wouldn't need so much exercise in order to experience results? Because I've worked with multiple people on this, and none have ever *needed* exercise the way you rave about it. The only thing you're living proof of is that the way you do it you need to exercise.

And don't get me wrong - exercise is hugely important for a lot of health reasons - but weight loss isn't really one of them. It's far more important for the health of your brain than it is for weight loss. It's like the old myth that muscle mass burns significantly more calories than fat mass. Not really true. When someone finally got around to doing a good study on it they found that while muscle mass does burn a little more calories than fat mass, it is not significant enough to count as a contributing factor towards weight loss.

Exercise is a drop in the bucket towards creating a calorie deficit as compared to potential dietary changes. In addition, weight loss is simply not as simple as calories in vs calories out. Recent studies have consistently shown that *what* you eat plays a huge part, not just how many calories of it. Your body does not process 100 calories of spinach the same way it processes 100 calories of bread.

And finally, paleo eaters do not need to watch their cholesterol. A studies on paleo diet showed that it was the *most* effective diet for decreasing cholesterol. It did a better job of controlling blood sugars for diabetics than a typical diabetes-specific diet does.

And I know you'll probably cry out for links, so here is a link to an response by Professor Loren Cordain, who includes references to all the appropriate studies smile

http://primitivestimulus.com/2011/06/cordain-refutes-bad-journalism/#more-636

EDIT: Figured including the link might help smile
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 07:39:28 PM by Crux » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2011, 09:14:30 PM »

I can attest to that, as I lost a decent amount of weight on Atkins with nearly no exercise (to start) when you are limiting your carbs to next to none, you almost have to lose weight.

How about the 'junk food diet'?  icon_biggrin 

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-11-09/entertainment/27080716_1_junk-food-food-diary-unhealthy-food
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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2011, 09:19:34 PM »

Quote from: Purge on September 03, 2011, 04:09:00 AM

We have been led to believe the AMA knows what they're doing, but it's a falsehood.

Call me weird, but I tend to trust people who have formal training and experience in physiology, nutrition, and metabolism, over a journalist with no such training (no training in biology whatsoever, in fact).  Kind of a weird thing for you to say, Purge.

Or the "research" cited in the response that Crux linked to...5 studies, each with an N between 9 to 29.  That population is not sufficient to be considered powered effectively to draw any sort of valid, statistical conclusion.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 09:22:00 PM by Eightball » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2011, 09:49:38 PM »

People are more or less arguing two different concepts.  Weight loss associated with diet versus overall health associated with diet and exercise.  I will agree that exercise is not the primary factor in weight loss, especially when considering the credo "abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym."  Losing weight will make overweight people healthier, however without exercise, despite being healthier through weight loss, fitter people from exercise will predominantly be healthier.  I think that is where the confusion in the discussion lies.  Someone may weigh less than I do, but if they don't exercise regularly I can assure you they aren't healthier than I am.  However, that's in part due to exercise but also obviously in part due to diet as well. 

While diet is important, and exercise is not the only factor leading to weight loss, there seems to be an underlying idea that exercise is not entirely important to a healthier lifestyle.  If you want to lose weight, adjust your diet, but if you want to be healthier, which is often associated with fitter, diet alone isn't completely sufficient.
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« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2011, 09:52:43 PM »

Quote from: Crux on September 03, 2011, 07:30:51 PM

Have you stopped for a moment and considered that perhaps exercise is so critical to your personal weight-loss experience because of your diet? That perhaps if you changed the way you ate you wouldn't need so much exercise in order to experience results? Because I've worked with multiple people on this, and none have ever *needed* exercise the way you rave about it. The only thing you're living proof of is that the way you do it you need to exercise.

You don't get it, which is not surprising since you are so hostile all the time, which is downright creepy, btw.

I don't *need* exercise to lose weight. I lose weight without exercise, just not as much. I exercise because that's what the human machine is supposed to do and because health is about so much more than just weight. My diet changed gradually to suit my newly active lifestyle.

So now here I am, 120+ lbs lighter, eating any carbs I want, albeit sensibly. I'm able to run up hills I used to have trouble walking. I ran my first 5k. I'm currently training for a triathlon... all because I started out by going for a walk and getting the machine working again.

I'm not saying people can't lose weight by just dieting. That's dumb, of course people can lose weight with a diet. I'm just saying if you're not exercising, even if it's not to lose weight, then you are living life wrong. It's about being healthy, and diet, while a huge part of it, is only a part.
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« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2011, 09:53:50 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on September 03, 2011, 09:49:38 PM

While diet is important, and exercise is not the only factor leading to weight loss, there seems to be an underlying idea that exercise is not entirely important to a healthier lifestyle.  If you want to lose weight, adjust your diet, but if you want to be healthier, which is often associated with fitter, diet alone isn't completely sufficient.

And for once I and PeteRock agree.
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« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2011, 10:24:35 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on September 03, 2011, 09:52:43 PM

Quote from: Crux on September 03, 2011, 07:30:51 PM

Have you stopped for a moment and considered that perhaps exercise is so critical to your personal weight-loss experience because of your diet? That perhaps if you changed the way you ate you wouldn't need so much exercise in order to experience results? Because I've worked with multiple people on this, and none have ever *needed* exercise the way you rave about it. The only thing you're living proof of is that the way you do it you need to exercise.

You don't get it, which is not surprising since you are so hostile all the time, which is downright creepy, btw.

I don't *need* exercise to lose weight. I lose weight without exercise, just not as much. I exercise because that's what the human machine is supposed to do and because health is about so much more than just weight. My diet changed gradually to suit my newly active lifestyle.

So now here I am, 120+ lbs lighter, eating any carbs I want, albeit sensibly. I'm able to run up hills I used to have trouble walking. I ran my first 5k. I'm currently training for a triathlon... all because I started out by going for a walk and getting the machine working again.

I'm not saying people can't lose weight by just dieting. That's dumb, of course people can lose weight with a diet. I'm just saying if you're not exercising, even if it's not to lose weight, then you are living life wrong. It's about being healthy, and diet, while a huge part of it, is only a part.

Quote from: cheeba on September 03, 2011, 09:52:43 PM

Third of all, I'm living proof that the above quote is bullshit. I've lost fricking 122 lbs and it all began with exercise and exercise has been absolutely integral to my weight loss throughout my 16 months of losing weight.

You have a funny way of saying that.

And I'm hostile to you because you come into these threads being aggressive to other people with regards to diet, and generally act like an asshole. You're a formerly obese man. I'm someone who has been extremely fit, healthy and at a healthy weight his entire life who also happens to train athletes and advise them on diet for a living. I see the results of this stuff on both ends with my very own eyes day in, day out. And yet you continuously spew bullshit as though you have a fucking clue what you're talking about. It's irritating. It probably shouldn't be because you're so obviously clueless, but it irritates me that your hyper-aggressive posting about this stuff probably serves to dissuade people from considering dietary options that could change their life irrevocably for the better. The simple fact is cheeba, you don't know what you're on about. You have never tried paleo and you're also not remotely educated on it. So try just shutting the fuck up about it until you either educate yourself or give it a try. And with that, I'm done. A good night to all, and to all a good night.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 10:31:08 PM by Crux » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2011, 10:25:33 PM »

PS. I am well aware that my previous post makes me just as much of an asshole as you are, if not more so. As I said, I'm done. You're just not worth the aggravation.
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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2011, 10:53:49 PM »

Quote from: Eightball on September 03, 2011, 09:19:34 PM

Or the "research" cited in the response that Crux linked to...5 studies, each with an N between 9 to 29.  That population is not sufficient to be considered powered effectively to draw any sort of valid, statistical conclusion.

Agree 100% on the small sample sizes. It's really unfortunate, but of course it all comes down to funding. You don't get large samples for long term studies without the resources to do so, and the current food industry has little to no interest in promoting anything resembling the paleo diet - in truth they'd all fight against it because you can't even sustain current world population levels if you take grains out of the equation.

I will say this however: Through those studies, people I've put on the diet myself, a lot of people I know from the crossfit community, I've *never* heard of a person who went on paleo and didn't either maintain or move towards a healthy weight. I've never spoken to a single person who said "I did paleo and it didn't work for me". I've done paleo both while training and while being sedentary. When training, I maintained low body fat and put on muscle mass. When being a lazy SOB, I simply maintained low body fat. This is all anecdotal, but I think it is somewhat powerful as far as it goes.

Now granted, most 'diets' work if you stick to them, to greater or lesser degrees. I think in modern society, for the typical sugar/grain addict beginning paleo is tougher than a lot of other diets because of the restrictions. It takes motivation. But if you have the motivation, it is the single most effective and powerful weight control/general health tool I've come across to date. And I always recommend when you are at or near a healthy weight that exercise should be a part of the equation smile
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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2011, 11:15:56 PM »

Quote from: Crux on September 03, 2011, 10:24:35 PM

You have a funny way of saying that.

And I'm hostile to you because you come into these threads being aggressive to other people with regards to diet, and generally act like an asshole. You're a formerly obese man. I'm someone who has been extremely fit, healthy and at a healthy weight his entire life who also happens to train athletes and advise them on diet for a living. I see the results of this stuff on both ends with my very own eyes day in, day out. And yet you continuously spew bullshit as though you have a fucking clue what you're talking about. It's irritating. It probably shouldn't be because you're so obviously clueless, but it irritates me that your hyper-aggressive posting about this stuff probably serves to dissuade people from considering dietary options that could change their life irrevocably for the better. The simple fact is cheeba, you don't know what you're on about. You have never tried paleo and you're also not remotely educated on it. So try just shutting the fuck up about it until you either educate yourself or give it a try. And with that, I'm done. A good night to all, and to all a good night.

Quoting this so you can't delete it. Holy shit dude.

(btw, how do you change size of an image through the forum?)

And you're right, I totally have no idea wtf I'm talking about. I've only lost 120+ lbs and I'm telling people what works for me might not work for them. Jesus Christ dude, you have problems.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 11:17:52 PM by cheeba » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2011, 11:23:36 PM »

I think this thread needs to go down in to the P&R put of despair.
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« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2011, 12:58:08 AM »

The arguing here is weird.

Fact: weight loss = consuming less calories than you use.
Fact: sitting on your ass and consuming 1,000 calories a day, but consuming 700 = weight loss.
Fact: exercising and consuming 3,000 calories a day, but consuming 2,700 = weight loss.

It's all the same.

However...

Fact: consume more than what you use without exercising: you become a fatass.
Fact: consume more than what you use while exercising like hell: you get big.

Fact: consume less than what you use while sitting on your ass: you become a skinny weak-ass bastard.
Fact: consume less than what you use while exercising: you become lean and ripped.

Fact: diet and exercise achieve different aims.
Fact: diet and exercise are deeply interwined with each other.

Simple.

Ideal result: you consume what you use, stay at a healthy weight, and exercise to stay fit.

Further details worth arguing about: diets and exercise programs. Not the above.



Personal note: I wholly support the paleo diet, and second the experiences above. How I feel before and while on the diet is like day and night.
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« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2011, 01:24:27 AM »

Quote from: Purge on September 03, 2011, 04:09:00 AM

Quote from: godhugh on September 03, 2011, 12:43:45 AM

Quote from: Purge on September 02, 2011, 08:05:30 PM

Our mortality rate and growth of health issues including child asthma, mental disorders including depression, Alzheimer's, schizophrenia etc... have all been on the rise.

Are you trying to draw a correlation between these diseases and carbs?

Not me, science.

I'd love to see this "science" linking childhood asthma and mental illnesses to carbohydrates.
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