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Author Topic: [Hivemind] Looking for education on bourbon and whiskey...  (Read 7494 times)
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PeteRock
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« on: October 08, 2008, 06:30:51 PM »

For as long as I have known her, my wife has been a drinker of Jack Daniels and Coca-Cola.  I, on the other hand, have not been much of a fan of hard liquors, instead preferring beer and wine.  Part of my problem is having "poisoned" myself on a number of popular liquors such as rum, vodka, tequila, and whiskey during my immature drinking days, and part of my problem is not having attempted to develop a palatte for what I would consider "harsher" flavors such as cognac, bourbon, etc. 

But recently I've been considering attempting to develop an appreciation for "sipping" beverages such as scotch, whiskey, bourbon, etc.  Part of the problem is I drink too much beer and it causes unnecessary weight gain, and wines aren't convenient because they're pricey and don't age well once opened.  Keep in mind, I despise mixed drinks, and my intent is to find a liquor I can sip during a relaxing evening while chatting with friends.  Something that doesn't require additions such as Coca-Cola or any other mixer, but instead can stand on its own or perhaps needs just a dash of water.  I've heard that adding ice is considered a bad habit by connoisseurs, but I'm not even close to being educated enough to know any better.  I want something smooth without the harshness I associated with whiskey.

Unfortunately my experience and understanding are terribly limited.  On my first attempt I poured myself a small glass of Jack Daniels and added water based upon some reading I had done on sipping whiskeys and the enhancement clean water can have on the beverage.  Apparently Jack Daniels is the exception as I didn't at all enjoy the experience.  The alcohol was harsh on my throat, the flavor had a hint of charcoal and was what I would consider "sickly sweet" (not sugary sweet, but an unpleasant sickly sweetness), and so my first attempt at sipping a more "mature" drink failed miserably.  I also despise rum (too much cheap rum in Puerto Rico ruined it for me for eternity), I don't like vodka, I'm obviously not a fan of Jack Daniels, and I'm not much of a tequila fan as well.

The reason for this discussion is last night a friend stopped by with a glass of his favorite Kentucky bourbon.  I have never had bourbon before, only Tennessee whiskey.  He noticed a bottle of Jack Daniels on our counter and started to discuss how important to folks from Kentucky the distinction is between Tennessee whiskey and Kentucky Bourbon.  I understand that whiskey is filtered through charcoal before aging, whereas bourbon is aged in charred oak.  Beyond that I'm a little ignorant on how the two differ in terms of taste, harshness, etc.  But he offered a sip, and I was pleasantly surprised.  It didn't have the harshness I associate with Tennessee whiskey, the flavors were subtle and not nearly as sickly sweet, and it was wonderfully smooth.  He had added a splash of water (I am assuming water applies to scotch, whiskey, and even bourbon, but I have no idea) and I was surprised at how much I enjoyed my few sips. 

I don't really like scotch, I certainly don't like whiskey (or at least Jack Daniels), and because of my initial failure with Jack Daniels I thought I'd never develop an appreciation for "mature" cocktails.  But I was surprised at how pleasant bourbon seemed to be.  Unfortunately I have no idea what brand or age he was drinking.  And I wouldn't even be able to wager a guess. 

Can someone perhaps explain a little more about how Tennessee whiskey and Kentucky bourbon differ in terms of flavor and "experience", and perhaps why I would find bourbon more pleasant than whiskey (and perhaps I just haven't had good whiskey), and would there  be a reason why I would prefer bourbon to whiskey and scotch?

I'm completely new at this, but last night's tasting certainly got me intrigued.     
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kratz
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2008, 06:45:02 PM »

Okay...

Um... briefly.

Hard alcohol doesn't save you much on calories since the calories in beer are mostly from the alcohol.  I think a shot of your average booze is about 130 calories, so in the neighborhood for a lot of beers.  The other drawback is that it's a smaller drink, so you can spend less time on one drink...

Secondly, Jack Daniels is crap.  It is NOT a good whiskey... it's cheap, harsh... yeah.  You figured that out.

The only thing probably distinguishing bourbon from tennessee whiskey is that you can't call it bourbon unless you distill it in kentucky.  The other rule for bourbon is that it needs to be mostly corn and aged in white oak barrels.

If you want to drink bourbon, try Knob Creek or Maker's Mark... much better stuff.  However, I'm guessing based on your description of the JD (which is definitely still crap), that you might prefer irish or canadian whiskey.

http://www.knobcreek.com/lpa

http://www.makersmark.com/AgeCheck.aspx?redir=%2fDefault.aspx

Scotch is generally going to have more of that burnt taste you didn't like, as they generally use peat fires when making it, and that makes up a lot of the flavor.

Irish whiskey has a lot of bite, in my mind, but there is some good stuff out there.  I'm assuming you've had Jameson, but two others I've enjoyed are Merry's and Bushmills.

The best, in my opinion, and certainly the smoothest, is good canadian whiskey.  Now, don't go buy Canadian Mist, because it'll strip paint... crown royal is pretty good, and most places have it, but the one that has become my #1 favorite in the last year or so is Pendleton.  It's bottled in Oregon, but it's canadian whiskey.  It's very smooth, flavorful, not bitter or burnt... kind of carmely.

http://www.hrdspirits.com/brand_pendleton.cfm

Check it out.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 06:49:31 PM by kratz » Logged
rickfc
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2008, 06:48:43 PM »

You really can't go wrong with The Glenlivet 15 or older.  Probably the smoothest scotch I've ever had.  You owe it to yourself to try it if you're looking into a sipping scotch.  The downside is that it can be a little pricey for some; $50 - 60 for the 15 and more for the others.  I saw the 18 for ~$80 when I was in Corpus the last week and a half.
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JCAnejo
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2008, 06:57:51 PM »

Although I am pretty much a Tequila drinker my wife drinks Crown Royal straigtht,hard to beat the price and it is really smooth. I also like Makers Mark as I have a couple of friends who like to drink it, although it costs about twice as much around here.

I also like a good scotch(and I will second the Glenlivet) but again the price tends to make them a special drink for me.

With the hard stuff you have less carbs then beer but the calories are about the same. I also have found that it helps to have a non alcoholic drink to help space out the booze a bit. I usually go with pellegrino or diet coke but that is about all I drink besides Tequila
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Doopri
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2008, 07:00:25 PM »

im a bourbon drinker myself - love the stuff either straight up or in a manhattan

whisky (whiskey) im more hit or miss with - it really depends on what it is to tell you the truth - though kratz and i must have similar tastebuds because it does seem like when i drink it, more often than not its the canadian stuff i like (weird)

scotch i dont have much experience with though if you go that route, if youre anything like me dont even mess with the blended stuff

and cognac is strange, no matter how many times i get it, i always end up preferring just regular ol' brandy (which i also love - as far as sipping drinks go its either bourbon or brandy - brandy invariably fills my flask when i go skiing smile) so im guessing i have a pretty uncouth palate smile

sorry i couldnt help out pete and used this more as a rant on what i like and dont like (though like you i also find rum to be pretty much useless - its nice in summer cocktails but a sipping drink it is NOT) - best advice - sip around, sip around - its part of the fun, sure youll find things you cant stand but the fun of sitting down with liquors is finding the ones you like and picking up on the subtle differences between them
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2008, 07:03:16 PM »

wow and the guy with anejo in his name is a tequila drinker - shocker smile
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2008, 08:22:29 PM »

I've never had the luxury of comparing top-shelf whiskeys. Among the bottom-shelf varieties, I keep coming back to Jim Beam. I can't tell you why, I just enjoy the flavor -- maybe because it stands up to cigars well. Seagrams VO, Canadian Club, and other cheap blends are just too bland.

Whatever whiskey you decide upon, seltzer makes an excellent chaser. I can sip a shot of Beam for an hour if I'm using seltzer to slake my thirst.
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PeteRock
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM »

Quote from: kratz on October 08, 2008, 06:45:02 PM

Hard alcohol doesn't save you much on calories since the calories in beer are mostly from the alcohol.  I think a shot of your average booze is about 130 calories, so in the neighborhood for a lot of beers.  The other drawback is that it's a smaller drink, so you can spend less time on one drink...

I'm not necessarily as concerned with general calories as I am with unnecessary carbohydrates.  And while I would drink one or two glasses of bourbon, it isn't unusual for me to drink five or six beers in any one night. 

Quote
Secondly, Jack Daniels is crap.  It is NOT a good whiskey... it's cheap, harsh... yeah.  You figured that out.

Glad to learn that my unrefined pallate is at least competent enough to make that determination.  No wonder so many mix it with Coke.  You can't stomach it otherwise.

Is Jack Daniels crap across the board, or is something like their Single Barrel offering a bit more refined or of higher quality? 

Quote
The only thing probably distinguishing bourbon from tennessee whiskey is that you can't call it bourbon unless you distill it in kentucky.  The other rule for bourbon is that it needs to be mostly corn and aged in white oak barrels.

Isn't another difference the filtration of Tennessee whiskey through maple charcoal?  I've read that this gives it a very distinctive flavor separating it from bourbon.  I'm not sure what kind of flavor, but I have noticed that at least in terms of Jack Daniels the flavor is much more harsh than the bourbon I tried the other night.

Quote
If you want to drink bourbon, try Knob Creek or Maker's Mark... much better stuff.  However, I'm guessing based on your description of the JD (which is definitely still crap), that you might prefer irish or canadian whiskey.

Don't the distinctions go deeper than just region, such as the "single malt" moniker?  Or is that more for scotch?   icon_confused

Quote
Scotch is generally going to have more of that burnt taste you didn't like, as they generally use peat fires when making it, and that makes up a lot of the flavor.

Scotch strikes me as having a "stronger", more "burnt" taste, as you describe it.  So far I haven't been a fan, but I doubt I tasted anything of reasonable quality.

Quote
Irish whiskey has a lot of bite, in my mind, but there is some good stuff out there.  I'm assuming you've had Jameson, but two others I've enjoyed are Merry's and Bushmills.

Is Jameson considered "good" Irish whiskey?  Outside of the Jack Daniels we have in the house I haven't really tried any other brands of whiskey.   icon_redface  Crown Royal seems to be rather popular, but what is its flavor like?  The problem I have is I don't go to bars much, other than to watch the Eagles on Sunday, and because of the amount I drink while lamenting their shortcomings I stick with Sam Adams Lite or Amstel Lite.  And if we go out for a nice dinner I usually drink wine.  So, for me to try the various suggestions I have to purchase them for my home.  And as you delve into higher quality liquors, you go up in price.  I fear that if I purchase something I really don't enjoy I'll be stuck with an expensive paper weight.  And my wife would have my ass.  Plus, if I were to try tasting various offerings at a local bar, it would have to be a quality bar in order to find better liquors, and then I run into the problem of what to order and how to order.

Quote
The best, in my opinion, and certainly the smoothest, is good canadian whiskey.  Now, don't go buy Canadian Mist, because it'll strip paint... crown royal is pretty good, and most places have it, but the one that has become my #1 favorite in the last year or so is Pendleton.  It's bottled in Oregon, but it's canadian whiskey.  It's very smooth, flavorful, not bitter or burnt... kind of carmely.

I've heard good things about Pendleton.  As I've found that the higher the quality, the higher the price, and the lower the quality, the worse the taste, even though I am only beginning my journey into appreciating fine liquors, I fear that starting out with cheaper options will only turn me off or discourage me.  But buying more expensive liquors means risking finding something I will not enjoy and wasting the dough.  Although I am PeteRock.  Fabulous

So, based on our discussion, obviously I need a starting point.  This week I would like to pick up one bottle of something of quality.  But I have no idea where to start.  Do I try Crown Royal?  Do I go with Maker's Mark?  Do I drink it with ice?  Without?  With water?  Without?  And then there are things like brandy, which I know even less about.  Christ. 

 icon_confused
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 08:38:07 PM by PeteRock » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2008, 08:51:52 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM


Quote
Scotch is generally going to have more of that burnt taste you didn't like, as they generally use peat fires when making it, and that makes up a lot of the flavor.

Scotch strikes me as having a "stronger", more "burnt" taste, as you describe it.  So far I haven't been a fan, but I doubt I tasted anything of reasonable quality.


Just completely ignore my advice on trying quality scotch, why don'tcha?

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 06:48:43 PM

You really can't go wrong with The Glenlivet 15 or older.  Probably the smoothest scotch I've ever had.  You owe it to yourself to try it if you're looking into a sipping scotch.  The downside is that it can be a little pricey for some; $50 - 60 for the 15 and more for the others.  I saw the 18 for ~$80 when I was in Corpus the last week and a half.
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2008, 09:02:43 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

Quote
Secondly, Jack Daniels is crap.  It is NOT a good whiskey... it's cheap, harsh... yeah.  You figured that out.

Is Jack Daniels crap across the board, or is something like their Single Barrel offering a bit more refined or of higher quality? 

I honestly wouldn't bother finding out... I assume it's not that different from regular JD (the 'fancy' stuff usually is very similar to the base brand in my experience).

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

Quote
The only thing probably distinguishing bourbon from tennessee whiskey is that you can't call it bourbon unless you distill it in kentucky.  The other rule for bourbon is that it needs to be mostly corn and aged in white oak barrels.

Isn't another difference the filtration of Tennessee whiskey through maple charcoal?  I've read that this gives it a very distinctive flavor separating it from bourbon.  I'm not sure what kind of flavor, but I have noticed that at least in terms of Jack Daniels the flavor is much more harsh than the bourbon I tried the other night.

Couldn't answer that...

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

Quote
If you want to drink bourbon, try Knob Creek or Maker's Mark... much better stuff.  However, I'm guessing based on your description of the JD (which is definitely still crap), that you might prefer irish or canadian whiskey.

Don't the distinctions go deeper than just region, such as the "single malt" moniker?  Or is that more for scotch?   icon_confused

I wouldnt' get hung up on singles vs. blends... blends often take the best parts of different bits to make a better end product.

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

Quote
Scotch is generally going to have more of that burnt taste you didn't like, as they generally use peat fires when making it, and that makes up a lot of the flavor.

Scotch strikes me as having a "stronger", more "burnt" taste, as you describe it.  So far I haven't been a fan, but I doubt I tasted anything of reasonable quality.

I have... and if you don't like the burnt taste, scotch will probably never be for you.  It's not for me either, for that matter.

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

Quote
Irish whiskey has a lot of bite, in my mind, but there is some good stuff out there.  I'm assuming you've had Jameson, but two others I've enjoyed are Merry's and Bushmills.

Is Jameson considered "good" Irish whiskey?  Outside of the Jack Daniels we have in the house I haven't really tried any other brands of whiskey.   icon_redface  Crown Royal seems to be rather popular, but what is its flavor like?  The problem I have is I don't go to bars much, other than to watch the Eagles on Sunday, and because of the amount I drink while lamenting their shortcomings I stick with Sam Adams Lite or Amstel Lite.  And if we go out for a nice dinner I usually drink wine.  So, for me to try the various suggestions I have to purchase them for my home. 

A lot of people think Jameson is 'good'.  I prefer one of those other brands.

Crown Royal is fairly smooth, a little sweet, carmely/vanillaish...

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

And as you delve into higher quality liquors, you go up in price.  I fear that if I purchase something I really don't enjoy I'll be stuck with an expensive paper weight.  And my wife would have my ass.  Plus, if I were to try tasting various offerings at a local bar, it would have to be a quality bar in order to find better liquors, and then I run into the problem of what to order and how to order.

I think the best way to get a feel for *most* whiskey is to order it on the rocks with a splash of water.  The stuff I'm suggesting is not especially expensive... in the $20 - $25 for 750ml range.  I really would recommend going to a bar where you can try a few different things.

You can find Crown Royal, Pendleton and Maker's Mark in even the dive bars here now... so you could hit a bar and have a little tasting party.  They might even have Knob Creek.

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

I've heard good things about Pendleton.  As I've found that the higher the quality, the higher the price, and the lower the quality, the worse the taste, even though I am only beginning my journey into appreciating fine liquors, I fear that starting out with cheaper options will only turn me off or discourage me.  But buying more expensive liquors means risking finding something I will not enjoy and wasting the dough.  Although I am PeteRock.  Fabulous

So, based on our discussion, obviously I need a starting point.  This week I would like to pick up one bottle of something of quality.  But I have no idea where to start.  Do I try Crown Royal?  Do I go with Maker's Mark?  Do I drink it with ice?  Without?  With water?  Without?  And then there are things like brandy, which I know even less about.  Christ. 

 icon_confused

I steer clear of the really expensive stuff because 1, it's really expensive, and 2, it's not *that* much different generally from the root brands.

As I mentioned, I'd say hit a bar where you can try Crown, Pendleton, Maker's, Knob Creek (my favorite bourbon).  If you insist on buying something for home only, I really would recommend a bottle of pendleton... you can probably even buy it get it in 375ml, and save some money (as you can w/ Crown).  I don't know if you can get 375ml of knob creek or maker's mark, but that's one way to save some money when you are figuring out what you like.

It's not something you need to figure out in one day, either...  

Anyway, once you figure out what types of whiskey you prefer (if you prefer any of them), you can start branching out.  I've heard good stuff about one called 'Forty Creek' that I haven't tried yet.  I've got a little list going of the stuff I want to try (mostly canadian). Of course some of them you can only get in canada.  Bastards!
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2008, 09:03:18 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 08:51:52 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM


Quote
Scotch is generally going to have more of that burnt taste you didn't like, as they generally use peat fires when making it, and that makes up a lot of the flavor.

Scotch strikes me as having a "stronger", more "burnt" taste, as you describe it.  So far I haven't been a fan, but I doubt I tasted anything of reasonable quality.


Just completely ignore my advice on trying quality scotch, why don'tcha?

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 06:48:43 PM

You really can't go wrong with The Glenlivet 15 or older.  Probably the smoothest scotch I've ever had.  You owe it to yourself to try it if you're looking into a sipping scotch.  The downside is that it can be a little pricey for some; $50 - 60 for the 15 and more for the others.  I saw the 18 for ~$80 when I was in Corpus the last week and a half.

Well... even the good stuff is peaty.  If you don't like that flavor...
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2008, 09:06:45 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 08:51:52 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM


Quote
Scotch is generally going to have more of that burnt taste you didn't like, as they generally use peat fires when making it, and that makes up a lot of the flavor.

Scotch strikes me as having a "stronger", more "burnt" taste, as you describe it.  So far I haven't been a fan, but I doubt I tasted anything of reasonable quality.


Just completely ignore my advice on trying quality scotch, why don'tcha?

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 06:48:43 PM

You really can't go wrong with The Glenlivet 15 or older.  Probably the smoothest scotch I've ever had.  You owe it to yourself to try it if you're looking into a sipping scotch.  The downside is that it can be a little pricey for some; $50 - 60 for the 15 and more for the others.  I saw the 18 for ~$80 when I was in Corpus the last week and a half.

My post had already run a little long and because I appreciated your suggestion so much I intended to honor your advice by responding in its very own post.  Such a needy bitch.   icon_wink 

My concerns are 1) spending $50-$60 on a bottle I may not enjoy, and 2) is the Glenlivet 15 smooth for a scotch or smooth in general?  I find scotch to be a bit harsh and I worry that smooth for a scotch may not be smooth enough in general for my virgin pallate.  But, because of my lack of experience I really have no way of knowing until I try for myself. 

And if I want to try a smooth scotch in a bar or restaurant, how does one go about ordering to ensure that you don't come across as an idiot and you get something of reasonable to high quality.  And if they were to offer a number of brands and say, "We have 'so-and-so' along with 'this-and-that', which would you prefer," I'd have no idea.  And then how do I drink it?  Straight up?  With water?  With ice?  I kind of need to develop a starting point to branch from. 
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2008, 09:12:02 PM »

Quote from: kratz on October 08, 2008, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 08:51:52 PM


Just completely ignore my advice on trying quality scotch, why don'tcha?

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 06:48:43 PM

You really can't go wrong with The Glenlivet 15 or older.  Probably the smoothest scotch I've ever had.  You owe it to yourself to try it if you're looking into a sipping scotch.  The downside is that it can be a little pricey for some; $50 - 60 for the 15 and more for the others.  I saw the 18 for ~$80 when I was in Corpus the last week and a half.

Well... even the good stuff is peaty.  If you don't like that flavor...

True, but he did mention that he had never tried quality stuff...
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2008, 09:15:32 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 09:06:45 PM

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 08:51:52 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM


Quote
Scotch is generally going to have more of that burnt taste you didn't like, as they generally use peat fires when making it, and that makes up a lot of the flavor.

Scotch strikes me as having a "stronger", more "burnt" taste, as you describe it.  So far I haven't been a fan, but I doubt I tasted anything of reasonable quality.


Just completely ignore my advice on trying quality scotch, why don'tcha?

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 06:48:43 PM

You really can't go wrong with The Glenlivet 15 or older.  Probably the smoothest scotch I've ever had.  You owe it to yourself to try it if you're looking into a sipping scotch.  The downside is that it can be a little pricey for some; $50 - 60 for the 15 and more for the others.  I saw the 18 for ~$80 when I was in Corpus the last week and a half.

My post had already run a little long and because I appreciated your suggestion so much I intended to honor your advice by responding in its very own post.  Such a needy bitch.   icon_wink 

My concerns are 1) spending $50-$60 on a bottle I may not enjoy, and 2) is the Glenlivet 15 smooth for a scotch or smooth in general?  I find scotch to be a bit harsh and I worry that smooth for a scotch may not be smooth enough in general for my virgin pallate.  But, because of my lack of experience I really have no way of knowing until I try for myself. 

And if I want to try a smooth scotch in a bar or restaurant, how does one go about ordering to ensure that you don't come across as an idiot and you get something of reasonable to high quality.  And if they were to offer a number of brands and say, "We have 'so-and-so' along with 'this-and-that', which would you prefer," I'd have no idea.  And then how do I drink it?  Straight up?  With water?  With ice?  I kind of need to develop a starting point to branch from. 

LOL...order "The Glenlivet" pronounced Glen Live It, on the rocks.  Make sure you say "The".  That's the brand name, and you'll sound like you know what you're talking about if you order it correctly.

And The Glenlivet 15 and 18, IMHO are smooth.  Period.  I had never really liked drinking whiskey or scotch on the rocks until I had the 15.  Good, yummy stuff.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 09:19:01 PM by rickfc » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2008, 09:18:52 PM »

If someone ordered 'the' glenlivet I would think they owned a yacht and had a stick in their ass...

I do agree that rocks or rocks/splash of water is the way to go.

Good whiskey has this magic point where just enough ice has melted for it to be perfectly mixed and nice and cold... one of the good things in life.  The splash of water can get you there faster.
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2008, 09:20:04 PM »

Quote from: kratz on October 08, 2008, 09:18:52 PM

If someone ordered 'the' glenlivet I would think they owned a yacht and had a stick in their ass...

It's not my fault you hang out at the seedy part of town, kratz.  Tongue
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2008, 09:21:33 PM »

Quote from: kratz on October 08, 2008, 09:02:43 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

Quote
Secondly, Jack Daniels is crap.  It is NOT a good whiskey... it's cheap, harsh... yeah.  You figured that out.

Is Jack Daniels crap across the board, or is something like their Single Barrel offering a bit more refined or of higher quality? 

I honestly wouldn't bother finding out... I assume it's not that different from regular JD (the 'fancy' stuff usually is very similar to the base brand in my experience).

Good to know.  I don't think I could drink the same brand as my mother-in-law, anyway. 

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Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

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If you want to drink bourbon, try Knob Creek or Maker's Mark... much better stuff.  However, I'm guessing based on your description of the JD (which is definitely still crap), that you might prefer irish or canadian whiskey.

Don't the distinctions go deeper than just region, such as the "single malt" moniker?  Or is that more for scotch?   icon_confused

I wouldnt' get hung up on singles vs. blends... blends often take the best parts of different bits to make a better end product.

I didn't realize that.  I always assumed that "single barrel" meant "concentration of goodness" while "blend" automatically meant "random mixture."  It's good to know that "blend" does not automatically imply an inferior product.

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Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

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Scotch is generally going to have more of that burnt taste you didn't like, as they generally use peat fires when making it, and that makes up a lot of the flavor.

Scotch strikes me as having a "stronger", more "burnt" taste, as you describe it.  So far I haven't been a fan, but I doubt I tasted anything of reasonable quality.

I have... and if you don't like the burnt taste, scotch will probably never be for you.  It's not for me either, for that matter.

I may leave my scotch tastings until after I've narrowed down my bourbon/whiskey preferences.  So far I've found bourbon/whiskey to be smoother on my pallate.  I don't think I'm ready for scotch just yet.  I haven't liked what I've had so far.  It was last night's sip of bourbon that really piqued my interest.

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Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

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Irish whiskey has a lot of bite, in my mind, but there is some good stuff out there.  I'm assuming you've had Jameson, but two others I've enjoyed are Merry's and Bushmills.

Is Jameson considered "good" Irish whiskey?  Outside of the Jack Daniels we have in the house I haven't really tried any other brands of whiskey.   icon_redface  Crown Royal seems to be rather popular, but what is its flavor like?  The problem I have is I don't go to bars much, other than to watch the Eagles on Sunday, and because of the amount I drink while lamenting their shortcomings I stick with Sam Adams Lite or Amstel Lite.  And if we go out for a nice dinner I usually drink wine.  So, for me to try the various suggestions I have to purchase them for my home. 

A lot of people think Jameson is 'good'.  I prefer one of those other brands.

Crown Royal is fairly smooth, a little sweet, carmely/vanillaish...

I am really leaning toward picking up a small bottle of Crown Royal as it sounds like a reasonably-priced sipping whiskey option.

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Quote from: PeteRock on October 08, 2008, 08:35:20 PM

And as you delve into higher quality liquors, you go up in price.  I fear that if I purchase something I really don't enjoy I'll be stuck with an expensive paper weight.  And my wife would have my ass.  Plus, if I were to try tasting various offerings at a local bar, it would have to be a quality bar in order to find better liquors, and then I run into the problem of what to order and how to order.

I think the best way to get a feel for *most* whiskey is to order it on the rocks with a splash of water.  The stuff I'm suggesting is not especially expensive... in the $20 - $25 for 750ml range.  I really would recommend going to a bar where you can try a few different things.

You can find Crown Royal, Pendleton and Maker's Mark in even the dive bars here now... so you could hit a bar and have a little tasting party.  They might even have Knob Creek.

That's a really good idea.  Is there any one "right" way to sip whiskey?  I don't fully understand why ice is good or bad, and I have at least read that water opens up the whiskey's flavors, but outside of that I guess "on the rocks with a splash of water" is as good a place to start as any.

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I steer clear of the really expensive stuff because 1, it's really expensive, and 2, it's not *that* much different generally from the root brands.

As I mentioned, I'd say hit a bar where you can try Crown, Pendleton, Maker's, Knob Creek (my favorite bourbon).  If you insist on buying something for home only, I really would recommend a bottle of pendleton... you can probably even buy it get it in 375ml, and save some money (as you can w/ Crown).  I don't know if you can get 375ml of knob creek or maker's mark, but that's one way to save some money when you are figuring out what you like.

It's not something you need to figure out in one day, either...  

Anyway, once you figure out what types of whiskey you prefer (if you prefer any of them), you can start branching out.  I've heard good stuff about one called 'Forty Creek' that I haven't tried yet.  I've got a little list going of the stuff I want to try (mostly canadian). Of course some of them you can only get in canada.  Bastards!


Even though I was leaning toward Crown Royal, I looked up Pendleton and found that BevMo has the 750ml bottle for only $20 and the description pretty much sold me.  "Named in honor of The Pendleton Round-up, one of the most respected rodeos in the country, this 'smooth as silk' Canadian import is aged 10 years in premium American Oak barrels for extra smoothness."  And smooth is exactly what I am looking for.  But I've also read that it is rather sweet.  Is this true, or are the reviewers a bit excessive in their opinions?

Odds are my grocery may have it as our local grocery stores are well-stocked.  And if I can't find Pendleton I can always fall back on Crown Royal, no? 
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2008, 09:23:23 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 09:20:04 PM

Quote from: kratz on October 08, 2008, 09:18:52 PM

If someone ordered 'the' glenlivet I would think they owned a yacht and had a stick in their ass...

It's not my fault you hang out at the seedy part of town, kratz.  Tongue

And I am fabulous.  Fabulous
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2008, 09:40:09 PM »

When they say it is 'sweet'... it's not.  Maybe if you drank lots of whiskey you might think it sweet compared to other whiskies, but you won't think it is sweet, as in sweet like Southern Comfort.
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2008, 10:22:21 PM »

Honestly, if you've got a good bar (or if the place you and Moliere play pool has a well stocked bar), I'd sit down with the bartender and tell them what you've told us. Jack Daniels isn't for you, you've had some bourbon that piqued your interest, can't recall what brand it was, but you're willing to taste and learn what makes a good bourbon. As long as it's not during their peak busy hours, any good bartender should be happy to help you find something you enjoy drinking. After all, a happy customer is a well tipping customer.

Being honest that you're a noob comes across far less foolish than obviously faking that you know what you're doing/what you want.
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2008, 10:23:42 PM »

Oh yeah, and enjoy being accidentally wasted.
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2008, 11:18:53 PM »

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I didn't realize that.  I always assumed that "single barrel" meant "concentration of goodness" while "blend" automatically meant "random mixture."  It's good to know that "blend" does not automatically imply an inferior product.

ill still hate on kratz for this - ive always thought the singles knew what they were doing and have been doing it for years - you know that picture in the "this is fun... thread" where they take a donut and stick a burger in between? burger = good, donut = good; burger inside donut = not so good - but like i said ive not had as extensive an experience with scotch as others (other liquors and other people smile)

and pete definitely play along with the bourbons for now - i like that youre narrowing it down to bourbon and canadian stuff until you find what you like

oh and i second the "prepare to be accidentally drunk" particularly if you go out on a tasting night - if you try 3 drinks youll probably be surprised - have a driver ready

and one last thing if youre concerned about ordering - i personally always go with bourbon on ice - i suppose a splash of water couldnt hurt, but i find the ice melts pretty darn quickly and id rather not have a bartender be overzealous with the "splash" (though if you start in eventually with scotch id suggest trying it, at least a few times, room temp - ditto on some of the nicer bourbons too)
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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2008, 01:06:18 AM »

Quote from: Doopri on October 08, 2008, 11:18:53 PM

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I didn't realize that.  I always assumed that "single barrel" meant "concentration of goodness" while "blend" automatically meant "random mixture."  It's good to know that "blend" does not automatically imply an inferior product.

ill still hate on kratz for this - ive always thought the singles knew what they were doing and have been doing it for years - you know that picture in the "this is fun... thread" where they take a donut and stick a burger in between? burger = good, donut = good; burger inside donut = not so good - but like i said ive not had as extensive an experience with scotch as others (other liquors and other people smile)

and pete definitely play along with the bourbons for now - i like that youre narrowing it down to bourbon and canadian stuff until you find what you like

The one primary qualifier is that the liquor I drink, whether it be Canadian whiskey or bourbon, has to be smooth.  I don't want a harsh bite, I don't want something that will cause my throat to involuntarily close, I want something that rolls off my tongue and down my throat in a uniform, pleasant manner.  I get the impression from my reading that aged Canadian whiskeys are a little less "harsh" than Irish whiskeys or Tennessee whiskeys, and apparently there are only two brands of Tennessee whiskey:  Jack Daniel's and George Dickel.  But I definitely think I've narrowed my interest at the moment to bourbons and Canadian whiskeys to develop some level of experience and appreciation.  Then perhaps I can learn to branch to other types of sipping liquors such as cognac, brandy, scotch, etc.

Quote from: CrayolaSmoker on October 08, 2008, 10:22:21 PM

Honestly, if you've got a good bar (or if the place you and Moliere play pool has a well stocked bar), I'd sit down with the bartender and tell them what you've told us. Jack Daniels isn't for you, you've had some bourbon that piqued your interest, can't recall what brand it was, but you're willing to taste and learn what makes a good bourbon. As long as it's not during their peak busy hours, any good bartender should be happy to help you find something you enjoy drinking. After all, a happy customer is a well tipping customer.

Being honest that you're a noob comes across far less foolish than obviously faking that you know what you're doing/what you want.

Quote
oh and i second the "prepare to be accidentally drunk" particularly if you go out on a tasting night - if you try 3 drinks youll probably be surprised - have a driver ready

I actually considered doing some sort of tasting at my favorite pool hall, but transportation is an issue.  After a few beers over the course of four or five hours of pool interspersed with water and iced tea, at the end of the night I'm perfectly capable of driving home (on more than one occasion Moliere has commented that he has never seen me drink, even despite the amount I normally drink).  While I'd love to sip bourbon or whiskey while shooting pool, during my first few experiences with such a strong beverage I plan to sample various brands and ages while out with a designated driver or in the comforts of my own home.  But never in a situation when I could find myself stranded without the ability to drive home.

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and one last thing if youre concerned about ordering - i personally always go with bourbon on ice - i suppose a splash of water couldnt hurt, but i find the ice melts pretty darn quickly and id rather not have a bartender be overzealous with the "splash" (though if you start in eventually with scotch id suggest trying it, at least a few times, room temp - ditto on some of the nicer bourbons too)

I certainly don't want to come across as some kind of "poser" pretending as if I am a veteran whiskey drinker.  I have no problem asking bartenders for suggestions, input, advice, etc.  I certainly take wine suggestions from knowledgable waitstaff very seriously, and I would treat input on whiskey and bourbon the same way.  Given the hellish day I've had, I think to treat myself I'm going to swing by BevMo to pick up a small bottle (750ml) of Pendleton as the reviews have made me desperate to give it a try.  And I could share something with my neighbor as he was kind enough to share a quality bourbon with me. 

I'll be sure to weigh in with impressions once I've had an opportunity to sample my new vice. 
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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2008, 01:18:07 AM »

I like to keep a bottle of Makers Mark around. I also have a bottle of this, http://www.bourbonenthusiast.com/forum/DBvd.php?id=34&task=displaybottling. It is not too expensive and much better than Jack Daniels.   I prefer this, http://www.jamesonwhiskey.com/text/global/enjoy/premium/redbreast.php, for a good Irish Whiskey.  As far as scotch goes, I like this one, http://www.themacallan.com/shop/detail.asp?pid=WEEU0800.
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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2008, 01:53:34 AM »

750ml isn't what I'd call a 'small' bottle... it's a fifth...

This thread sent me to the liqour store on the way home today, where I got pendleton because it was on such a good sale, though I was tempted to try a couple bourbons I read about today. (Buffalo Trace and Bulleit).  The price tags were a bit steep comparatively...
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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2008, 02:22:08 AM »

I love threads like this.  icon_biggrin

For some reason beer gives me an upset stomach so I've just given up on ever drinking it. 

I like the hard stuff.  I've had Crown Royal and liked it, but I think I'll give Pendleton a try.  I love trying new things.

Yummy.
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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2008, 02:44:01 PM »

Well, last night as I was about to head over to BevMo to pick up a "small bottle" ( ninja ) of Pendleton's my wife called and asked if I wanted to meet her and a friend over at The Tilted Kilt for dinner.  I saw this as a perfect opportunity to try a glass or two of whiskey before taking the plunge on a full bottle.   icon_biggrin

When I arrived I asked the server for a list of their top-shelf whiskeys.  I'm PeteRock.  If I'm going to get into whiskey, it has to be fabulous.  I had initially asked for Pendleton's, but they didn't have any on-hand.  The server informed me that they offered Crown Royal Special Reserve and Aberfeldy 12.  Before anyone comments, I'll get to Aberfeldy in a minute.

I started with a glass of the Crown Royal Special Reserve on the rocks with a splash of water.  The color was a light golden and the nose was pleasant but certainly far from overpowering like Jack Daniels.  I unfortunately wasn't making it a point to pay close attention to specific flavor nuances as I am new to sipping whiskey and wanted to first determine if this is a path I may be going down due to a desire for a more mature drink or because I actually appreciate the flavor of quality whiskey.  The Special Reserve was pleasantly smooth, it rolled of the tongue and didn't have the harsh effect of constricting your throat, and the flavors had a hint of sweetness from what I would say were flavors of vanilla and perhaps a touch of caramel.  It wasn't quite as smooth as the bourbon I sampled at home, which my wife is fairly certain was Evan Williams, but certainly far smoother than past whiskeys I've tried, and to be honest, I enjoyed the experience.  What I wonder is how the Special Reserve stacks up against the general Crown Royal offering.  If basic Crown Royal is as smooth and similar in flavor then I would certainly enjoy it.  But if it is a tad harsher then I think I would prefer the Special Reserve.

Now, on to Aberfeldy 12.  Because I am far from being familiar with all of the different brands of whiskey and bourbon I was not aware that the bartender wrongfully mentioned a scotch in his list of top-shelf whiskeysdisgust  And because I at least understand that as whiskeys and bourbons age they become smoother, I at first thought I'd have a chance to try a 12-year-old whiskey which should be wonderfully smooth and have much richer flavor notes.  I was wrong.  But, at least because of his accident (or lack of knowledge) I was able to sample a 12-year scotch.  Right from the start I could tell that the flavors were going to be different.  The nose had a hint of smokiness and none of the sweetness I associated with the Special Reserve.  The Aberfeldy wasn't nearly as smooth as the Special Reserve and left a lingering aftertaste of smoke and perhaps wood.  I will say that the Aberfeldy was far smoother than scotches I've had in the past like Dewer's more common offerings.  But the flavor notes weren't what I was looking for.  I wouldn't know what peat tastes like, but because of all the reading I've done I would say that there was a burned organic note to the flavors.  Not as sweet, not as smooth, and more wood and alcohol than what I would say was a warmer, smoother, leather-vanilla-caramel flavor in the Crown Royal.

And, because the Aberfeldy was served right about when we started to eat dinner, I learned that I definitely don't enjoy sipping scotch while eating dinner.  Food and scotch just don't seem to blend as well as a well-paired wine or beer.  The flavors want to fight against each other rather than enhance one another.  Perhaps this assessment is due to my lack of appreciation of scotch, but it just didn't work.  I'm not sure how the Crown Royal would have done, but I think I will prefer sipping whiskey on its own and drinking beer or wine when pairing a drink with dinner.  It could be my broader experience with wine and beer that may be clouding my judgement, but I am uncertain as to what types of foods would benefit from the flavors in various whiskeys and bourbons.  They just seem to be better off either as an aperitif, and after-dinner drink, or a late-evening nightcap. 

And I could be making yet another mistake by spelling the plural of "whiskey" as "whiskeys" if it instead should be "whiskies".   paranoid

Overall I learned a fair bit last night and am now curious what I can expect from Pendleton's given my recent experience with Crown Royal Special Reserve.  And last night at least helped me to definitely determine that scotch just doesn't offer the flavor notes I seem to prefer which only whiskey and bourbon can offer.   
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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2008, 03:47:35 PM »

I've had the Crown Royal Reserve (I don't think there is a *special* reserve... just normal, Reserve, Cask 16, and XR ($170/bottle!)).

It's pretty similar to regular crown, a bit better, but not that different. If you liked it, you would probably like Crown as well.  Pendleton is smoother than either of them.

I'm really dying to try that Forty Creek... argh.

Glad I could help steer you at something you enjoyed!
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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2008, 03:49:52 PM »

Quote from: kratz on October 09, 2008, 03:47:35 PM

I've had the Crown Royal Reserve (I don't think there is a *special* reserve... just normal, Reserve, Cask 16, and XR ($170/bottle!)).



 icon_cool

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It's pretty similar to regular crown, a bit better, but not that different. If you liked it, you would probably like Crown as well.  Pendleton is smoother than either of them.

SOLD!   icon_biggrin

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Glad I could help steer you at something you enjoyed!

All of the input and advice has been greatly appreciated.  This is going to be a really fun new pursuit for me.
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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2008, 03:52:57 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 09:12:02 PM

Quote from: kratz on October 08, 2008, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 08:51:52 PM


Just completely ignore my advice on trying quality scotch, why don'tcha?

Quote from: rickfc on October 08, 2008, 06:48:43 PM

You really can't go wrong with The Glenlivet 15 or older.  Probably the smoothest scotch I've ever had.  You owe it to yourself to try it if you're looking into a sipping scotch.  The downside is that it can be a little pricey for some; $50 - 60 for the 15 and more for the others.  I saw the 18 for ~$80 when I was in Corpus the last week and a half.

Well... even the good stuff is peaty.  If you don't like that flavor...

True, but he did mention that he had never tried quality stuff...

Sorry, Rick, but after enjoying Crown Royal and then trying Aberfeldy 12 immediately after I was able to determine that my taste preference is whiskey and bourbon, not scotch.  While Aberfeldy is no The Glenlivet, there are flavor notes in scotch that I still haven't learned to appreciate.  My flavor preference leans toward the whiskey family.  But I do appreciate the advice.  I've learned a great deal from this thread and in my information travels around the intarweb. 

We can almost always count on the GamingTrend population to provide information on almost any subject.  We are a wonderfully broad and diverse group of folks with such a broad depth of experience and it's always great to learn from each other. 
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« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2008, 04:35:08 PM »

Yeah, I guess that's what I had.  Huh.
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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2008, 06:11:46 PM »

Funny that I'm responding to this as I recently decided to reduce my drinking to almost nil. I've never really been a hard liquor drinker, that said the only hard liquor I'd touch was Bourbon. I'd caution against the muted whiskeys such as Scotch and Irish. Others here may have required a taste for them, but they contain far more impurities than bourbon. So you can expect some nasty hangovers if you ever over do it; even a bit.

I agree with Kratz about JD being 2nd rate and that both Makers Mark and Knob Creek are fine bourbons; I'd also add Jim Bean to the 2nd rate column. Once when on business in Ashville, North Carolina I picked up a boutique bourbon from Kentucky in one of the government stores there. I wish I could remember the name, as it was excellent and much cheaper than Knob or Makers. Maybe someone else here from that area would know.

[Edit] BTW Despite being from Canada I recommend you avoid Canada Club and any other rye whiskey. I know we sell lots of it all over the world, but quite honestly I just don't undertand what people taste in it.
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2008, 07:46:31 PM »

I don't drink so much any more, except for tonight.  :o  And I like a number of mixed drinks, so I'm probably in the wrong ball park because I'd not sip on a drink on the rocks and I like my drinks to be mello.  If I were to drink a drink like that I'd grab and pour then  maybe it'd be a Baily's or a Captain Morgans (while a rum, it's not like rum).  If you made me do I traditional drink on the rocks then I'd probably go for Crown Royal as well.  It's much more mello than other whiskeys (as are most Canadian Whiskeys) but more mellow probably means you are less inclined to sit it.

Do vermouth drinks count as mixed drinksif you were looking at scotch and soda or whiskey and water?  There is the whole set of martinis, manhattans, rob roys, rusty nails, etc...

Me?  If I were going to sip a drink, I'd get in season with a sour apple.  (Jager, Apple Pucker, and Pine Apple Juice)

I'm totally a girl drink drunk.
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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2008, 07:57:28 PM »

ya pete none of the drinks mentioned are "sit down with dinner" drinks - it just doesnt pair up - stick with the wine / beer with dinner

if anything have a nice cold glass of water AFTER dinner before having another

pretty much the only time ill mix these kinds of drinks with food is ill occasionally have a brandy / cognac w/ tiramisu after dinner - but thats about it
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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2008, 07:59:57 PM »

oh and two more things...

i know you like to cook so dont let your experience dissuade you from using bourbon / brandy / whiskey in a nice SAUCE - totally different

and yes lord mortis - you are a girl drink drunk smile
to quote scrubs: "ill have an appletini - wait no, ill have a mans drink tonight - one nectarini please" smile
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2008, 09:08:40 PM »

Alright... I'm a bit late to this thread, but I'll chime in.

Single Malt vs Blended Scotches - Totally different taste.  In fact, Pete, I honestly think you would prefer a good blended Johnnie Walker if you like the idea of scotch but can't get past the Peaty taste.  JW Gold or JW Green are slightly on the higher end, but are very smooth and very nice, I think.  It really depends on my mood/craving of the day if I prefer a single malt to a blend.  Both are good, but definitely different.  For single malts, the Glenlivet 18 or any of the MacAllans are enjoyable.

Regular Whiskey - Pendletons.  Game over.  There's nothing else worth trying.

Bourbon - I like both Maker's Mark and Knob Creek.  Knob is much better standalone (I prefer it neat, actually) but Maker's to me makes a better Manhattan.  I'm not sure why this is, but it is.  Also as a tip on Manhattans (2nd best cocktail ever), I recommend to order it on the rocks (as opposed to Up in a martini glass).  It doesn't taste overly sweet this way for some reason.  I'd also shoot anyone who doesn't put bitters in a proper Manhattan.

Irish Whiskey - I go back to this as a preference from time to time.  Jamesons, Bushmills, and even Tullamore Dew are quite good.  In fact, if you put one in front of me without telling me what it was, I'd likely not be able to differentiate between the 3.  I used to enjoy this a lot more, but just have moved on to Bourbon I guess.


Click for full size - Uploaded with plasq's Skitch

And that's my bartop here at the condo.  From Back to Front, Left to Right: Glenlivet 18, MacAllan 15 Fine Oak, Maker's Mark, Dom Perignon, JW Gold, JW Black (for people I don't trust to appreciate good scotch), Knob Creek, Bushmills, Hendricks, Pendleton, Tullamore Dew.  Under the bar I keep my mixers (Sweet Vermouth, Dry Vermouth, Angostora Bitters, Tonic, Ginger Ale, Red Bull) and a large bottle of Stoli for friends.

gellar
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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2008, 09:15:17 PM »

Gellar, see if you can get that Forty Creek in your neck of the woods... then try it and lemme know.
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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2008, 09:17:37 PM »

Quote from: kratz on October 09, 2008, 09:15:17 PM

Gellar, see if you can get that Forty Creek in your neck of the woods... then try it and lemme know.

Sure thing buddie.

I forgot to also mention: if you know a bartender that can make a good Sazerac, you should try it.  It's fucking spectacular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sazerac_(cocktail)

gellar
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Doopri
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« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2008, 09:20:06 PM »

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Also as a tip on Manhattans (2nd best cocktail ever), I recommend to order it on the rocks (as opposed to Up in a martini glass).  

i always get mine straight up, but have been asked a few times if id like it on the rocks - ill have to try this sometime on your reccommendation gellar

and your awesomeness is reaffirmed by your choice of cocktail (i would put it first but why quibble over one spot?)

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gellar
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« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2008, 09:21:16 PM »

Quote from: Doopri on October 09, 2008, 09:20:06 PM

Quote
Also as a tip on Manhattans (2nd best cocktail ever), I recommend to order it on the rocks (as opposed to Up in a martini glass).  

i always get mine straight up, but have been asked a few times if id like it on the rocks - ill have to try this sometime on your reccommendation gellar

and your awesomeness is reaffirmed by your choice of cocktail (i would put it first but why quibble over one spot?)



Honestly, I started getting it on the rocks first because I fucking HATE martini glasses, but then was pretty happy to find that it tasted better.

gellar
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