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Author Topic: WoW - The Rogue Class  (Read 9447 times)
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Valael
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« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2005, 10:45:23 AM »

Quote from: "Falator"
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if ss is your main attack and you use daggers, you are massively hurting yourself.

ss is an instant attack so your speed is useless.

lets look at it this way. You have a really nice 80 dmg dagger. i have a pretty nice 120 dmg mace. you do 80 dmg every 4 seconds which is 20 dps. I do 120 dmg every 4 seconds which is 30dps...



By your math, we both attack the same ammount of times in 4 seconds, but my dagger is almost twice as fast as your mace, so I'm actually throwing down a lot more hits, with many of them also dropping poison, which makes up for any lower damage, plus I can also SnD, which means I hit even faster.  It's all a gamble really, one I am actually going to test out, but with swords instead of dagger once I hit level 30. We'll see how it goes.


Sinister stike is not based on speed. so the higher damage you do per hit, the higher your dps.

daggers in my experience are harder to find (good ones at least) so chances are the mace also has higher dps.

Thus, the mace is doing higher damage with ss and the same or more damage with default attacks. You proc poison more with daggers, but not that much more. Riposte also does more damage with maces Tongue

Koz: this is why ss mace builds are better at soloing. The only way you will compete against a mace user when you are using daggers is by using backstab.




What he's saying is that you may hit harder with your SS, but he's hitting more often in between each SS, and procing more poison because of it.  

So you may do 30dps with your SS while he does 20dps, but he probably threw twice the number of swings AND procced more poison in between.

Damage wise, I'm not really convinced the difference is that big.  However, the stun is very tempting.


I have a level 18 Rogue, a level 32 rogue, and a level 12 rogue.  Currently, I had the level 18 and 32 rogues specced exactly the same.  But I'm very tempted to respec the 18 rogue for more of a combat build.  If only I could save up 1g.
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Valael
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« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2005, 10:57:33 AM »

A quick question --


Supposedly with stun, the first time it's 100% effective, then it drops from there until it isn't effective at all.

So if it's a 2 second stun, it works for the full two seconds the first time, then 1 second the second time it procs, then less than a second from there.  So unless it's a caster, the stun would be pretty meaningless.


Have you noticed this?  Is this only with the bigger stuns, like Gouge?
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JRC1978
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« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2005, 06:43:14 PM »

With the mace stun build it is a 5% chance to stun on every hit for 3 seconds, and it is 3 seconds every time.  If you dual wield maces, it is essentially a 10% chance to stun (maybe less when you factor in the slower attack rate of off hand) but it is still pretty damn good.

And yes, the dmg difference is very noticeable.  I steal aggro from dagger rogues all the time when we partner up. They can not keep up with the damage my SS and Eviserate does.  A higher DPS dagger on a rogue similar level to me is not going to have enough extra dps to make up for the ton more damage I do on my SS and Evis.
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Koz
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« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2005, 08:31:32 AM »

I have to say I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from. As a dagger rogue, I've never been "outdone" by a mace build. I'm thinking you might play with people that don't know how to properly play a dagger rogue. I know I've certainly run into them.

Here's a favorite combo of mine: CS, wait 4 seconds, gouge, wait 3 seconds, BS, KP, wait 4 seconds, gouge, wait 3 seconds, BS. That's a virtual stunlock and will take a similarly leveled mob down to maybe 20-25% of their heatlh (and sometimes dead if I hit a couple real nasty BSs). At that point you got a couple CP's and a SS and Evis will usually finish it off.

Note I don't use any SSs (except maybe at the end) because SS is not the strength of a dagger rogue, backstab is.

I personally don't believe any one rogue build is fundamentally superior over another. It entirely has to do with equipment and how the char is played.
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Falator
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« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2005, 09:26:48 AM »

Valael: that logic is incorrect. As mentioned, non daggers generally have more dps. Even if you do find a dagger with equal dps, you are still only doing the same damage over time with normal strikes.

You will proc poison more using daggers, but that is all. the extra poison procs don't make up the extreme difference in ss damage.

Koz: your dps will be lower than a combat rogue. The only way you are going to compete with a combat rogue is to constantly backstab. You can do this in groups and your dps will be above a combat rogue's dps.

Now, as far as i know there isn't a huge difference either way, but the difference is there.
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JRC1978
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« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2005, 09:37:46 AM »

I have played rogues each way in beta and I decided on a mace build for retail because I saw the difference myself.  An SS/Evis rogue with swords or maces will out damage an ambush/BS rogue with daggers.  

I am sorry, but your CS/gouge idea is way flawed, especially in PvP.  Gouge is useless except in PvE and 1v1 PvP to regain energy, but any good rogue keeps thistle tea at all times, so gouge really is entirely useless.  I open with CS, when that wears off I Kidney Shot and my mace talent keeps them stunned the rest of the time more than enough to keep them from fighting back effectively.  If enough time passes I just kidney shot again, but I only have that much time when fighting Paladins.

Backstab is useless in PvP because you have to be behind a person.  Sometimes you do not have time to position yourself and the best route is a full frontal assault with SS and Evis.  

Here is an example from Beta.  I did a test at 40.  I used ambush and backstab in a fight and my ambush/backstab talents were maxed.  I would crit for 650ish on my ambush,  350ish on my BS.  I had a Coldrage Dagegr in my main hand.  I respecced right after and went SS/Evis with a  Heaven's Light mace in my main hand.  My SS did 450ish crits and Evis did 850ish with a couple 900+ crits.   My DPS with daggers according to Cosmos was 80ish, with my dual maces it was 130ish.
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Koz
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« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2005, 05:51:20 PM »

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I am sorry, but your CS/gouge idea is way flawed, especially in PvP.  Gouge is useless except in PvE and 1v1 PvP to regain energy, but any good rogue keeps thistle tea at all times, so gouge really is entirely useless.  I open with CS, when that wears off I Kidney Shot and my mace talent keeps them stunned the rest of the time more than enough to keep them from fighting back effectively.  If enough time passes I just kidney shot again, but I only have that much time when fighting Paladins.


You do realize YOUR logic is flawed, yes? Gouge = 4 free seconds. 4 seconds = ~40-60 energy regen. Thistle tea cooldown = 5 minutes. Also gouge gives you 1 CP. There is NO negative impact of a gouge. It's a free CP and by the time it wears off you've regened all of the energy you spent to use it in the first place. Explain to me how this is useless?

My opening is far better than your's: I get 4 CPs to your 2, and I take just as much damage (i.e. zero). In fact as a mace build you could do the exact same opening, exchanging the BS for a SS.

And how is BS useless in PvP? You gouge, position yourself, BS. This is like the most basic combo for a dagger build. Perhaps if you're fighting at greater odds than 1v1 (so a teammate keeps breaking gouge), but then you let them take aggro and BS away anyways. I've done this, it works.

I should also mention Evis is weapon independant, so a 5-point Evis with a mace will do the same as a 5-point Evis with a dagger.
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JRC1978
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« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2005, 07:53:08 PM »

Ok, I am tired of this argument.  I am having the same one on another forum.  

I know from my first hand experience that a mace or sword build rogue does more damage than a dagger one does.

I know from first hand experience and common sense that gouge is not a reliable stun in PvP because it can be broken.  Cheap shot, kidney shot and mace stun can not be.  

SS with sword/mace will always do more damage than BS.  It's the game mechanics.  Just like a 2 hand sword is going to do more dmg than a 1 hand one when a warrior uses Mortal Strike.

The gouge/BS method is only worthwhile in PvE or the rare 1 on 1 PvP battle.  You even  mentioned letting your team mate take aggro.   You can't take aggro in PvP!  And why use BS when you can use the higher dmg SS/mace combo that also stuns???  More damage plus a stun is much better than just BS.

And I don't only get 2 CP's for my opener.  I get 4.  By the time the other player has revived I have 4 CP's and have just hit my 3rd SS and get my 5th CP.  I am also convinved Evis has a weapon dmg factor in it, because I can not crit with a dagger for the amounts my maces or swords do.

So, anyways, I am done on this thread.  I have tested and tested and tested some more, and the mace stun build is the most effective PvP build.  Daggers and swords can not stun, so they are not as good for PvP.
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slackerjoe
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« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2005, 01:13:32 AM »

I hit lvl 26 with my Rogue last night. Let me just say that cheapshot rules. And since I found a blue (rare) sword, the rogue life is very good.
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Elenkis
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« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2005, 04:39:04 AM »

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The gouge/BS method is only worthwhile in PvE or the rare 1 on 1 PvP battle.


You must not play on a PvP server if 1 on 1 battles are "rare" for you. I'm in involved in many 1 on 1 and group PvP fights (1v1 mostly) every night and I'd say from my first hand experience that Gouge is one of the greatest PvP utilities a rogue has.  Any good rogue knows what a lifesaver it can be, especially when jumped by more than one enemy.

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SS with sword/mace will always do more damage than BS. It's the game mechanics


At end game ambush can crit for about 1300 and backstab for 800-900+ - SS will not come close to that.  BTW, you also neglect that with talents backstab crits far more often than SS can.

Of course an advantage to using SS and mace/sword is that it's non-positional and requires less energy (and the good daggers are harder to find - mid 30s to early 40s can be a rough time for dagger users).

A good combat build will be better for damage over time and I sometimes prefer it for grinding, but it wont beat a crit backstab build for burst damage.  Both are very effective and which is "better" will always be hotly debated.  This is why I love rogues, there's a lot of great options.

Quote
Daggers and swords can not stun, so they are not as good for PvP.


I can keep enemies locked in stun for almost the entire battle regardless of whether I'm using daggers, swords or maces.

Just a moment ago some lvl 37 orc hunter jumped me when I was being swarmed by mobs and had 400hp left. I gouged him... He remained stunned for pretty much the rest of the battle until he was dead, when he came back he collected his corpse as far away as possible and then ran as fast as he could.  I was using daggers at the time (recently respeced to a more balanced build because I've been doing a lot of group instance runs).
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« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2005, 06:32:52 PM »

i thought gouge wore off the second you hit them again.  how could you keep someone stunned the entire battle?

i'm not doubting you, i'm just curious how it's done.  i have a lvl 17 human rogue i'm playing currently (next week who knows what alt i'll be playing  :wink: ) and i'd like to know how to build for that.
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« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2005, 10:34:42 PM »

If you read my combo above, it's not too hard to do. At level 17 you don't have 2 of the required skills, but by level 30 you can do it.

Try: Start with cheap shot (4 sec stun + 2 CPs), once it wears off gouge, wait like 3 seconds, then backstab, then immediately Kidney Punch (4 sec stun), once that wears off, gouge, wait 3 seconds, then backstab. That will often do it, but you may have a bit more hp left.

At least that's how I do it, Elenkis may have a different method. You keep the mob in virtual stun lock the whole time until the very end. Works great against casters and you don't even need maces for it.
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« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2005, 11:50:41 PM »

I had two human paladins come up to me yesterday.  I'm a level 41 rogue they were lvl 36 or 37.  I play on PvE so no ganking is possible.  One of the paladins turns on his PvP flag and starts jumping around to let me know he wants to fight.  So I attack him and basically get him down to nothing.  Then his friend starts to heal him and I see I'm losing this fight.  So I start to run away and then vanish.  I see that he does the /rude emote to make a rude gesture at me.  This makes me mad.  So I stay stealthed and creep back up.  They've decided to stay and creep, both with their flags on.  The one who gestured at me has maybe a sliver health left.  I cheap shot him and ss-evis and he's toast.  Then I go to work on the next guy and take him out without even getting hit.  It was a thing of beauty.  :lol:
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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2005, 01:53:18 PM »

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Well you don't want to primarily lean on SS in a dagger build, but you still use the skill heavily. Only SS and gouge give CPs during normal fighting (you can't BS without stunning in some fashion), and gouge has a longish cooldown (especially with no points in the talent), so even a dagger build is going to use quite a few SS's.


At level 18 solo'ing, I will either ambush or backstab (1 cp); take 3 seconds of stabbing (meter fills), gouge (+1), hold A and E for a second (strafes to the back of the monster), Backstab (+1), take another 3 seconds of stabbing, drop an SS (+1) and then a gouge (+1) and before the gouge wears off my energy is high enough to drop a max Evis.

I'm liking the daggers; got a sword in my second hand.

I truly haven't decided on a spec' yet; I've only got 2 points assigned right now (1 in improved evisc, 1 in remorseless... both were assigned accidentally while I was just looking.) I'm not spending a gold to have those two cleared out while I try to decide.
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Elenkis
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« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2005, 03:04:11 PM »

My typical combo with daggers in PvE is a simple: Cheap Shot, Backstab, Gouge, Backstab, 5pt Kidney Shot, Backstab, then SS if still not dead/or replace KS with Evis if it will be enough for the kill.  I take like 50hp damage per fight with mobs my level using that, but it should be noted I have Improved Gouge and Improved Cheap Shot talents and those make a difference when it comes to energy management.

Now if I need to really put out the damage:

Cheap Shot, Backstab, Gouge, Backstab ~wait for energy to hit 100/use thistle tea~, Kidney Shot, Backstab, Backstab, Gouge, Backstab, Eviscerate - blind/vanish and repeat if necessary.

That's not really a stunlock combo since it's not very energy effecient and you have a lengthy window where they aren't stunned after the second backstab while you're waiting for max energy (which you need if you want to get in two backstabs after the KS); unless you drink a tea.  But it's pretty damn awesome when you pull it off.

SS with swords/maces is of course better for a pure stun build as it's much kinder on the energy.
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« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2005, 07:09:13 PM »

This thread has been a help. One of my alts is a 16 rogue and I admit I've been foundering a bit-the class just hasn't quite clicked for me yet. I don't yet have a lot of the abilities I see mentioned here but experimenting with different approaches using the abilities I have has brought me limited success. I'm thinking that I'm overlooking some fundamental rogue strategies for my level.

When fighting stuff my level I tend to lose most of my health and if I get an add I either run or I die.  As far as stun abilities goe all I have is 'gouge' so far, so hopefully with the addition of a few more levels and abilities things will smooth out for me a bit.
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Falator
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« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2005, 03:29:51 AM »

Well, let me start off saying that i play on a normal, no ganking, server. It is for this reason that 95% of my pvp experience is large scale raids. I also don't duel a great deal as you really can't use stealth in duels.

I don't find gouge good in large scale pvp. The reason is that most of the time, that person is going to be taking damage after you gouge them. whether a hunter used a dot sting on the person or a warlock decided to aoe everyone, matters not as either way, you gouge is gone.

I generally don't use kidney strike in group pvp as every second i am there fighting, is one second i am out of the shadows and am risking being engaged  by my target's friends.

Bs is viable in pvp. Hell, it is even viable in 1 vs 1 pvp as long as the person doesn't have very good knowledge of rogues, but it can be very hard to land a bs on a person who knows what your positional attacks are capable of (as long as they aren't stunned somehow).

I still think that bs builds do more dps assuming they can chain bs, but even in instance pve, i think it is of questionable worth. Just the mere act of walking a little bit from your group to get behind the mob can be enough to get the attention of adds and i tired of begging my groups to pull farther back a long time ago (of course that assumes there is even room to pull them farther back).

bs builds require too much planning in my opinion. Yes, if everything goes perfectly they will get off their 1k damage ambush followed by a backstab  and a 5 point cold blood eviscerate (we all know that the cheap shot talent and seal fate go off every time for them) and instantly kill whatever, but what happens when it doesn't? what happens when you are 52 fighting lvl 55 living blazes and your cheap shot seems to miss them 80% of the time?

oh and "positional lag" (monster graphic shows the monster facing one direction, but the server say it is facing another direction) really stinks for bs builds.
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Elenkis
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« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2005, 07:41:23 AM »

Quote
I don't find gouge good in large scale pvp. The reason is that most of the time, that person is going to be taking damage after you gouge them. whether a hunter used a dot sting on the person or a warlock decided to aoe everyone, matters not as either way, you gouge is gone.


Communication works wonders... I love gouge in group PvP sometimes.

Sure it's not as useful when in a group of random people that totally ignore teamwork (I can imagine this being more frequent on PvE servers); but then since it's a hell of a lot easier to backstab in group PvP anyway, gouge really isn't as important.

Quote
I generally don't use kidney strike in group pvp as every second i am there fighting, is one second i am out of the shadows and am risking being engaged by my target's friends.


I too tend to not use KS as much in group PvP, though it definitely does have it's uses.  But generally in group PvP I'm assigned the job of taking out the casters (healers being priority), and I do it fast.

Quote
Bs is viable in pvp. Hell, it is even viable in 1 vs 1 pvp as long as the person doesn't have very good knowledge of rogues, but it can be very hard to land a bs on a person who knows what your positional attacks are capable of (as long as they aren't stunned somehow).


Which is exactly why you use the stuns... In fact it's often easier to backstab in 1v1 PvP than PvE because humans don't have the instant reaction time of mobs and don't automatically turn to face with you with no delay.  You'd be amazed how many times you can strafe through someone and backstab them before they manage to turn (this is without them being stunned). I swear some of them are using keyboard to turn instead of mouse, or maybe I've just played too many twitch based FPS games at high mouse sensitivity in my life.

Quote
but what happens when it doesn't? what happens when you are 52 fighting lvl 55 living blazes and your cheap shot seems to miss them 80% of the time?


I hit my macro to switch to maces and still win smile
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