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Author Topic: WoW patch today  (Read 5040 times)
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olaf
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« on: April 19, 2005, 01:07:05 PM »

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/patch-05-04-08.html

olaf
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2005, 04:12:38 PM »

Quote
Live Patch Notes Disclaimer: While we make every effort to include all upcoming changes in our patch notes, please be aware that occasionally some changes are unintentionally omitted.


Tee hee.

Actually not a bad patch, as far as I can tell.  Warlocks continue to suck ass, and I guess Hunters are still reeling from their DPS loss, but otherwise it looks good.
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2005, 04:42:04 PM »

"Ancona creature name changed to Ancona Chicken."

Thank god this was finally changed.  This was so confusing, that I cancelled twice.  Having Ancona Chickens named merely "Anconas" was a TK griefers' paradise:
"Look out! I aggroed the chickens!"
" I can't target any chickens!  All I see are these Ancona-things, and they are pecking me to death!  Arrgh!"
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2005, 08:23:19 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote
Live Patch Notes Disclaimer: While we make every effort to include all upcoming changes in our patch notes, please be aware that occasionally some changes are unintentionally omitted.


Tee hee.

Actually not a bad patch, as far as I can tell.  Warlocks continue to suck ass, and I guess Hunters are still reeling from their DPS loss, but otherwise it looks good.


Enlighten me on how Warlocks continue to suck ass, please.  Do you mean in PVP?
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Daehawk
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2005, 08:30:37 PM »

still no servers..1 1.2 hours late...sigh
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Daehawk
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2005, 09:11:11 PM »

They may as well say forget Teusdays...just log in wednesday..we're getting worse and worse at patching and we mess more stuff up each time....hey in a year or so you can log in fine on sunday and monday.
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olaf
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2005, 09:48:03 PM »

I think Tuesdays ought to be credited days as long as they are going to schedule 6 hours of downtime, and then some, on each one.

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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2005, 10:08:07 PM »

I agree olaf.

Anyway though, anyone who played on test for more than a minute knows that the test server had massive problems. There was so much pvp around the southshore/tm area that you can nearly walk to tm along a paved path of dead bodies from southshore. This caused MASSIVE lag as every step you took you were loading about 50 bodies.

If they haven't fixed that, battlegrounds will not work AT ALL. it will also mean that it will be impossible to level in either of those two cities.

oh and for a fun note, a while back, 2-3 RAID groups of horde attacked ironforge on bronzebeard. The alliance quickly mounted a defence of which the guild i am in played a large part since we had a raid group coming back from a try at onxyia. The battle was ended nearly without a blow. The lag was so bad that single hordes would run to the if king, attack him and then for like 40 seconds nobody would be able to attack him until he instantly died as the server caught up. The server crashed shortly after that.

so in conclusion, WOW CANNOT handle large pvp raids.
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olaf
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 10:10:20 PM »

And they couldnt be bothered to add something like /hidecorpse to the game.  Nice.

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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 11:09:48 PM »

Quote from: "Rob81Lakes"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote
Live Patch Notes Disclaimer: While we make every effort to include all upcoming changes in our patch notes, please be aware that occasionally some changes are unintentionally omitted.


Tee hee.

Actually not a bad patch, as far as I can tell.  Warlocks continue to suck ass, and I guess Hunters are still reeling from their DPS loss, but otherwise it looks good.


Enlighten me on how Warlocks continue to suck ass, please.  Do you mean in PVP?
Head over to the official Warlock forums and read some of the 'issues' posts.  Not only is the class riddled with bugs, it's horribly gimped in PvP.

PvE-wise, they're pretty balanced.  The bugs still need to be fixed, but they're a viable class in terms of PvE.
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Daehawk
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2005, 11:39:48 PM »

I cant read the boards..The wow website has been dead to me all day..its the same everytime they patch.
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2005, 02:10:03 AM »

Has anybody else been having lots of problems with crashes since the latest patch?

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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2005, 02:19:08 AM »

Yeah. I just got booted from a critical error.
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2005, 03:31:56 AM »

Horror stories about post-Honor PvP are already cropping up.  Here's a link from QT3.

In short:

-As expected, Honor didn't reduce ganking at all.  As expected, it increased it.

-You better as hell be Alliance to enjoy this patch:

Quote from: "olaf (QT3)"
Played some just now. Suramar. Alliance outnumbers Horde 7:3 50+, even more if you run census by activity and not by existing characters. It really shows now that PvP has some meaning.

But before we talk faction imbalance, the lag just kills the game. How this got off of the Test servers I will never know. Its as bad as DAOC was on early relic raids. So bad you cant type. The servers havent even been up for an hour and TM was literally paved in corpses. Every inch of the place from the center of the town to the fields, to the road, bodies everywhere.

Second, the Horde just has no chance on this server. Its pointless to stay in one region for more than 5-10 mins because as soon as we triggered a world defense alert, within 10 mins or so the Alliance was swarming on us like stink on shit. 2 to 1 for sure, felt like 4-5 to 1.


(Emphasis mine.)

My, this is a pity.  I had the notion of re-subbing, but if it's going to be a cakewalk as Alliance or a lost cause as Horde, and either way it's going to be laggy, I think I'll keep my credit card in my pocket for the time being til Blizzard figures out that they might need to do something to balance this horrible population skew.  Even if it's implementing a FFXI-style forced allocation of new players and sides.  i.e, if you want to play a PvP Night Elf, you're sent to some backwater server where the ratio is closer to 1:1, while if you want to play a PvP Orc, you're sent to one of the larger servers where you're outnumbered 7:3.  

Another way would be to give the underdog side a substantial EXP bonus based on just how outnumbered they are.  

Another way would be to put population caps on sides for the servers.

There are three quick, logical options that'd work til some overwrought and unoffensive system can be put into place.

But my money's on Blizzard never doing a damn thing to address faction balance... at least, not for a long, long time.
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olaf
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2005, 10:12:56 AM »

They fucked up Defensive stance too.  It lowers DPS by 20% now instead of the 10% its supposed to.  Go Warriors.

olaf

edit: I dont think they will ever do anything to adjust population numbers either.  Hell they wont even own up to the fact that they are so skewed, they outright lie to players insisting that sites like www.warcraftrealms.com are inaccurate, when they are not.  Go there and look at average acitivity across all servers.  Its very nearly 2 to 1.  If that isnt out of whack...get the fuck out of here, of course it is.  2 Alliance for every 1 Horde?  How in the fuck are you supposed to deal with that as the Horde?
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2005, 12:08:46 PM »

Why not allow people to transfer characters from alliance to horde?  I probably would...on Lothar I have 3 Alliance characters and I hate the Alliance more than the Horde.
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2005, 12:54:29 PM »

Quote from: "Blackadar"
Why not allow people to transfer characters from alliance to horde?  I probably would...on Lothar I have 3 Alliance characters and I hate the Alliance more than the Horde.

They would have to admit to being liars, that the Alliance really does outnumber the Horde 2 to 1 on average.  They wont do that.

olaf
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2005, 03:50:35 PM »

Quote from: "olaf"
Quote from: "Blackadar"
Why not allow people to transfer characters from alliance to horde?  I probably would...on Lothar I have 3 Alliance characters and I hate the Alliance more than the Horde.

They would have to admit to being liars, that the Alliance really does outnumber the Horde 2 to 1 on average.  They wont do that.

olaf
pH34r THE VISION (tm).

Oh well.  Guess this game will continue to be a clusterfuck of incompetence until the first expansion, or maybe even later...
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2005, 05:36:57 PM »

I updated and played some last night for the first time this week.  

I respec'd my priest just to see how ineffective the new Holy Nova was.  Even with my lowered expectation, I was still disappointed.   Passing through Southshore, I found a large fight brewing, and so I joined in.  This is on a PvE server mind you.

With the new Honor system in place, Tarren Mill and Southshore was an absolute bloodbath.  The Horde, outnumbered probably 3:1, spent most of the time bottled up in TM, and only when the Alliance folks pulled back to let them regroup were they able to get organized.

I racked up nearly 200 honorable kills last night (as part of a 5 man group), though I personally only killed about 3.   PvP is not my focus, and I've probably had my pvp tag on about 6 times total the past 4 months.  I just wanted to see what huge numbers of people fighting looks like, and it was a mess.

Server performance was horrible as usual when in large groups.  Unless Blizzard plans on making battlegrounds 15 vs 15, I just don't see how it will work, instanced or not.

With the new Honor/Ganking code in place, I can't imagine what it's like on PvP servers now.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2005, 07:06:28 PM »

Quote
Head over to the official Warlock forums and read some of the 'issues' posts. Not only is the class riddled with bugs, it's horribly gimped in PvP.


Yep those boards are usually so accurate.  Not only that but they usually highlight the positive while overlooking minor flaws.

There are SLIGHT imbalances in pvp, but player skill levels make up more of a factor in the outcome of a battle.  As someone who played bnet wc3 for 2+ years I understand that sometimes I am just OUTPLAYED.  If I am consistently beaten by a tactic I either adjust my own tactic or I keep dying.  I don't see why this is so hard to see in WoW.  People think that they should either win all or at least half of their fights.  It is quite silly really to think that.  You might as well just play a coin flipping tournament with your friend.  This game has a pretty heavy skill component and no amount of buffs or tweaks will surmount a lack of ability.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2005, 08:06:16 PM »

Sadly, most people dont want to admit they are the problem.  It's so much easier to blame the game (or whatever).
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2005, 08:46:14 PM »

Of course skill plays into it, I'm not disputing that.  What I am concerned with involving Warlocks is:

-An utter lack of defensive spells aside from Fear, which has been nerfed from here to the moon.  (And Succubus's Charm, which leads me to...)

-The utterly obnoxious Soul Shards mechanic, ESPECIALLY when applied to PvP.  Warlocks can indeed be good in PvP -- but to use some of those 'good' spells, like pets and insta-cast damages and such require Soul Shards.  The last time I checked, consensus was that it required one hour of farming shards via PvE to do 15-20 minutes of straight PvP.  The ratio was better for those of lower level (more mobs out there that'd yield exp, and thus shards), and worse for higher level (fewer mobs out there, mobs that do exist at those high levels are found more frequently in instances).

-The lame 'babysitting' required to keep high-end pets charmed.  There are many better ways to express the challenge required to keep pets on your side--perhaps your mana could slowly but steadily drain, and when it runs out, you lose control of the pet?  You wouldn't be allowed to eat/drink during this time, but you could cast Life Tap to spill your own blood for more mana to control that super-demon...

Those are the biggest non-bug issues I have with the class.
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2005, 09:21:56 PM »

Quote from: "olaf"
They fucked up Defensive stance too. It lowers DPS by 20% now instead of the 10% its supposed to. Go Warriors


For real?  Well that just completely messes up my soloable prot-spec deal.  Might as well start investing some in Fury.
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olaf
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2005, 10:56:46 PM »

Quote from: "SuperHiro"
Quote from: "olaf"
They fucked up Defensive stance too. It lowers DPS by 20% now instead of the 10% its supposed to. Go Warriors


For real?  Well that just completely messes up my soloable prot-spec deal.  Might as well start investing some in Fury.

It could just be a tooltip bug I guess.  I cant say that I have parsed it.

olaf
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« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2005, 04:20:36 AM »

Quote
The last time I checked, consensus was that it required one hour of farming shards via PvE to do 15-20 minutes of straight PvP.


Completely and totally false.  Pvp (the large scale kind) involves casting insta dots and aoeing, no shards required.  IF you are demon specced you can have your void out for 8k hp but that is not that hard to get a shard for.  You have to decide if it is worth the summon time when you may or may not live long enough for it to be worth it.  

Quote
An utter lack of defensive spells aside from Fear, which has been nerfed from here to the moon. (And Succubus's Charm, which leads me to...)


False again.  Voidwalker.  Even if you don't have soulink you can still devour him and get a 800 hp shield.  Fear is a better devensive spell than polymorph, that gives them full hp back almost instantly and takes longer to cast.  Also being able to drain tank is a nice defensive move...



Quote
The lame 'babysitting' required to keep high-end pets charmed.


After seeing an infernal in battle I totally agree with blizzard making this so hard to control.  It dominates.  Plain and simple.  

I'm pretty sure WoW is not the game for you.  You have too much built in hatred/cynicism/prejudice.
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« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2005, 08:16:41 AM »

I'd like to chime in on this warlock issue. Having played a warlock since day 1 and up to lvl 60 I'm fully aware of the problems.

First of all, fear has diminishing returns and is not guranteed to last the full 20 seconds. Fear also breaks on damage. What do warlocks? We dot, there goes our defense from fear. Same with seduction. Curse of Exhaustion simply is not worth spending those valuable talent points. Maybe if its buffed, but not right now. Besides any mage can easily dispell it.

The void walker sacrifice is good for melee. However, it doesnt scale properly to the damage that you need the protection from. So its gone quite fast. Not to mention the taunt for pve doesnt scale either. So hardly warlocks use it anyways past lvl 40.

Shards are vital, even in large scale battles. I cant tell you how many times I ended up 3:1 wishing i had my pet and could use real spells. Instead I was resorted to jumping around hoping someone would take notice eventuallly. In a perfect world I would like to just sit back and dot, but thats quite impossible due to the massive alliance imbalance.

Besides, there is no good reason to have the shard system in place. It is simply a triple balance that is not justified, not even by Blizzard.

The infernal powerful? Perhaps, but not really. I did the quest for more of a novelty than anything. You wont see any locks with it out for a few reason. Firstly, it'll kill you, how great of a pet. Second, it really is not that strong. It can easily be taken down when you would need to use. Third, the reagent does cost 45s and for the 2 above reasons thats quite high.

The complinants are more that justify. It is not a matter of skill as much as a lack of options to do anything. I just cant understand why Blizzard is continuingly nerfing us when we are one of the weakest classes in the game. Just rid of the stupid shard system and give a banish player that works like sheep. There, once thats done fix our broken talents. Not hard, but apparently Blizzard's too inept to actually think of that. Inside they have Eyonix post about once a month saying they are looking into the issues with no further updates.
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« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2005, 12:33:57 PM »

jersoc, warlocks have some legitimate gripes, but don't compare them to mages.

You want sheep?  Take it.  It's a 1.5s cast spell that - in PvP - won't last longer than 10 seconds (usually) AND heals the target.  It's wonderful in PvE...in PvP, it blows.  I'd take fear every time in PvP.

As for voidwalkers (blueberries) and infernals...at least you get a pet.  That friggin' infernal is a freight train.  Giving 'locks the ability to really control those would make them the most powerful class in the game, bar none.  

I'm not saying warlocks don't have their problems (they need a shard bag and their talent bugs fixed), but they're not woefully weak.
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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2005, 07:46:36 PM »

I originally just wanted to know whether the latest patch changed something major that my 31 warlock needed to be aware of, but MY GOD... how do some of you manage to have any fun with this game?

I LOVE my warlock.  She's the most unique character I've played in any RPG.  So many different strategies.  She can simply rule in a given PvE situation one minute, and then be the cause of getting every freindly ally dead the next.   :lol:   Never boing.

I have just about as much fun with my 22 Druid and 26 Rouge.  WoW is just that much fun.
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« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2005, 08:47:04 PM »

Playing a character since day 1 doesn't endow you with any sort of credibility or omnipotence.  It just alerts everyone of your bias.  

Quote
Besides, there is no good reason to have the shard system in place. It is simply a triple balance that is not justified, not even by Blizzard.


Totally wrong on this statement yet you state it as if it were a self evident fact.  The reason why warlocks need shards is because otherwise they would be DPS kings with a pet.  They have no downtime in large scale fights (life tap, life drain, first aid, etc).  What is to limit them to even the dps of a mage?  Nothing if they have no shards to contend with.  Shards are there for the very purpose of limiting their power.  

Without shards they have more dps than a mage, comparable aoe (hellfire is twice the damage, rain of fire is comparable depending on spec), no downtime, more flexibility in pets than a hunter, and the ability to make health stones that are on a separate timer than potions.  
Yep, no justifiable reason to limit the power of warlocks....
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« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2005, 10:41:21 PM »

Additionally damage does NOT break fear, it has a chance to break fear.  That is much different than poly which DOES break fear.  

Was just in a battle in TM when a warlock from our side dropped an infernal.  Opened up so much whoopa*s it was silly.  Then i started blizzard around him and GGed the alliance.  Warlocks are great to have around.
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« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2005, 10:45:16 PM »

Quote from: "Ender"
Playing a character since day 1 doesn't endow you with any sort of credibility or omnipotence.  It just alerts everyone of your bias.

No, I think retarded statements like this alert everyone of your bias.

Quote
Without shards they have more dps than a mage,

Wrong.

Quote
comparable aoe (hellfire is twice the damage, rain of fire is comparable depending on spec),

Wrong.  Plus, no one in their right mind casts Hellfire.  Not only is it channeled, it damages you.  It's like asking to die.

Rain of Fire is shit compared to Blizzard.

Quote
no downtime,

Very wrong.  Drain Life/Life Tap is nowhere near as powerful as to completely remove downtime.

Quote
more flexibility in pets than a hunter,

Wrong.  Hunters have scads more choices in pets than Warlocks do.

Quote
and the ability to make health stones that are on a separate timer than potions.

That heal for a paltry amount of HP considering the levels you get them at.  Soul Stones are useful, though.  Probably the only useful ability Warlocks get (PS:  That's why they're taken on raids--no other reason).

As usual, Ender, your shocking lack of knowledge regarding your most precious game continues to amuse me.  It's really quite pathetic how blind you are to the glaring flaws World of Warcraft is riddled with.
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« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2005, 11:33:41 PM »

I'd respond, but I know how LE thinks he's the end-all-be-all of RPG experts.  Even on games he doesn't play.

 :roll:
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« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2005, 04:37:45 AM »

Quote from: "Ender"
Playing a character since day 1 doesn't endow you with any sort of credibility or omnipotence.  It just alerts everyone of your bias.  

Quote
Besides, there is no good reason to have the shard system in place. It is simply a triple balance that is not justified, not even by Blizzard.


Totally wrong on this statement yet you state it as if it were a self evident fact.  The reason why warlocks need shards is because otherwise they would be DPS kings with a pet.  They have no downtime in large scale fights (life tap, life drain, first aid, etc).  What is to limit them to even the dps of a mage?  Nothing if they have no shards to contend with.  Shards are there for the very purpose of limiting their power.  

Without shards they have more dps than a mage, comparable aoe (hellfire is twice the damage, rain of fire is comparable depending on spec), no downtime, more flexibility in pets than a hunter, and the ability to make health stones that are on a separate timer than potions.  
Yep, no justifiable reason to limit the power of warlocks....



Never said I was the know it all on the issue. I said I am fully aware. The shard hinders us more than you know. All of the spells that require them have insane cool downs and mana cost. Summoning a pet, 10 seconds and over 1k in mana. Shadowburn, 15 seconds. How is that different from the mages fireblast? Warlocks have downtime, especially in pvp. We also have the worst downtime of any class upon res. You can't use a healthstone then make one right away and then use it. It is liek 4-5 minute cool down. I dont remember exactly, cause in large scale battles they dont matter. Not to mention to summon one is over 1k mana.

So You really should look at the class further before you do think the shards are ther for a reason. Shards do far more to hinder us than you know it. With laughable defenses, its stupid.

On the sheep subject, I do have a mage, lvl 43 in fact. Its great to stop the 2v1. Its great to get away from ganks as well.

I'm not trying to start a huge flame war or anything. But a lot of you guys are basing your knowledge on nothing. I have experience. I want to like my class. I think they are fun. I just want some defense and something modified about shards.

Oh yeah, the infernal.  Having it break is blizzards cop out on easy balancing. Its AoE is the only cool thing about it. Its quite easy to kill. Have it where it vanishes after a set time or something. It'll last like 4-5 minutes, has a 1 hour cooldown and a 45s reagent. Just not worth it outside of novelty or freaking out a raid of opponents.
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« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2005, 05:25:59 AM »

Wow, i cannot even begin to reply to that.  I mean how to refute when someone says "wrong".  If LE says it, it must be so.  He has an intimate knowledge and understanding of this game.  Suffice it to say you are totally misinformed on aoes, healthstones (1200 health at level 60 is half of my health as a mage, yeah pretty inconsequential), and warlocks in general.  Your claim about the options of hunter's pets shows your lack of knowledge as it pertains to the hunter class.  Not wasting anymore time responding to you.  

Jersoc, I say this because I have been watching the highest pvper on our realm the past 2 days.  He has over 3k honor kills.  He is a warlock, and I am basing my statements on observations of him, conversations with him, and my own lvl 26 warlock (yeah doesn't mean anything except that i understand the basic fundamentals of the class).  I'm not claiming that they are not without problems but that they ahve weaknesses and strengths like every other class.  Skill is the major determining factor though just like every class.
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Gedd
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« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2005, 02:24:00 PM »

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Wrong. Hunters have scads more choices in pets than Warlocks do.


We may have more options for different skins for our pets, but functionally Warlocks have a great deal more flexibility to adjust to situations.

With Hunters we can pretty much tame pets that have minor differences in armor, DPS, and health.  We can then add-on a few skills that can slightly increase DPS and a taunt.  Sure, there are a few pets that have increased run-speed or faster attacks, but the trend at this point has been for Bliz to find the pets that don't line up with the "normal" pet scheme and put them back in-line.

Warlocks have a high-dps pet that buffs the party. They have a low-dps pet that's great at tanking.  They have another medium/high dps pet that adds a CC ability.  They have another pet that's fair against casters and can eat up certain debuffs on party members, and also adds a party stealth detection buff.  Start dipping into talents and powers, and those pets add even more functionality.

I can't really comment about the infernal or doomguard because my wife hasn't really played with them yet (we just started her on her infernal quest).  

That's variety and choice.  Having the option of a different model that has little to no effect on the Hunter's capability is not.  Now, once the pet customization comes in to play (no ETA, natch) then maybe we can talk.
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« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2005, 08:51:50 PM »

I will have to agree with Warlocks having more pet flexibility.  It is my understanding a Hunter can only carry one pet at a time, and if they wish to switch pets they need to go to a stable.  I dont have a Hunter, so I cannot speak authoritatively, but Im fairly certain that is how it works.

And dont mind LE; he is our "non-WoW playing resident expert".  His rants are like reading complaints in the WoW forums, but take 99% less time, so he provides a valuable service here  biggrin   He's a good guy.
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« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2005, 10:08:21 PM »

Quote from: "Gedd"
We may have more options for different skins for our pets, but functionally Warlocks have a great deal more flexibility to adjust to situations.
That's true.  Of course, before the massive Hunter pet nerf, I'd say Warlocks' and Hunters' pets were about equal -- Warlocks' had more abilities, but Hunters' had more interesting stats/attack speeds/resistances that made them useful in varying situations.

And yes, I bitch alot about WoW.  I'm sorry.  I can't help it.  At very least, I try to be informed about my stances on the game--I check out the WoW Class forums about once a week, (never the General forums, ick), cross-referencing claims by one class about another class, reading CM responses, etc.

I'd like to add that I've played both a Mage and Warlock, neither to the 'high end' but both to the 'late midgame' (getting a mount).  You complain that I say things like "Wrong" as if I know for sure whether you're right or not.

The thing is, in the all the Mage vs Warlock cases you presented up there, you are indeed factually wrong.  Mages easily out-DPS Warlocks, ESPECIALLY if the Warlocks can't use a single shard-based spell.  AoEs are not comparable in the least -- Mages can run around in circles spamming IAE every second and a half.  Warlocks have to stand still to cast Hellfire, PLUS it's channeled, PLUS it's PBAoE, PLUS it does damage to the caster as well!  Considering the damage difference between IAE and Hellfire's per-tick damage is minimal at best, it's very clear IAE is the 'better' spell.  Mages are known as the masters of AoE damage for a reason.

As for Rain of Fire / Blizzard, again, no contest, Blizzard is better.  The cleft is even worse when both sides have specced the spell up -- Cataclysm lists, what, 20% chance to stun?  In practice, it's more like 2% chance to stun (Eyonix of the Blizzard forums explains this by saying the 20% isn not 'per tick' but is across the duration of the spell -- I call bullshit).  Improved Blizzard, on the other hand, is just disgustingly good, able to snare or outright stop an entire group (thus keeping them in the Blizzard damage radius).

Downtime.  Warlocks have some of the worst downtime in the game, mostly due to shards.  And while Life Tap is a fast way to get mana, Drain Life is *not* a fast way to get Health.  It's much faster to stay out of combat and just eat food than it is to Drain Life something to death.

And Health Stones aren't exceptionally useful until later levels, and even then, you'll need to put some points in the appropriate skills to make them really good.  Plus there's a big cooldown on making each respective type of stone.
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« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2005, 11:27:24 PM »

Sorry but still you are incorrect.  Before the hunter pet nerf???  There was really only one single pet that was changed, snarler.  That was IT.  All he did was add 100 to resistances so he was good verse bosses and elemental type mobs.  

IAE is very very mana inefficient AND it is also pbaoe.  In addition you have to spend talent points to get it, as well as it doesn't do near the damage of hellfire.  Hellfire does about twice the damage of blizzard, additionally the warlock can have 10k hp if specced correctly (sharing hp with voidwalker).  With healthstone, voidwalker health then devour, the hellfire aoe isn't as bad as you make it out to be.  For farming mobs it is amazing when done with a mage.  

Blizzard is great IF you are specced for it.  Still at lvl 60 I do 150ish per tick.  Comparable to fire storm, and I am frost specced (frost +damage gear as well as extra damage from talent).  Yes blizzard has a CC component but that is for the frost mages, we give up major DPS in order to do that.

Comparing the overall dps you are mistaken again.  A DPS specced warlock (with imp, and imp talents, and destruction) can frontload a buttload of dps.  One of the top warlocks from beta showed this in many different instance combat parses.  The warlock couldn't out dps the rogues but WAS out dpsing the mage.  Destruction specced warlock is comparable dps with a fire mage (much more dps than frost) when you count the imp.  

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« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2005, 02:08:46 AM »

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Sorry but still you are incorrect. Before the hunter pet nerf??? There was really only one single pet that was changed, snarler. That was IT. All he did was add 100 to resistances so he was good verse bosses and elemental type mobs.


Wrong, the Spire Spiderling was nerfed as well. Used to have a 1.00 attack speed and now has 1.5 attack speed.
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« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2005, 02:28:28 AM »

Quote from: "Ender"
IAE is very very mana inefficient AND it is also pbaoe.

Yeah, but you can move while casting it.

Quote
In addition you have to spend talent points to get it, as well as it doesn't do near the damage of hellfire.

Most Mages get IAE.  It's basically a requirement.  The other option is heavy frost.  I've never met a Mage who both lacked IAE and wasn't Primarily Frost-specced.

Quote
Hellfire does about twice the damage of blizzard, additionally the warlock can have 10k hp if specced correctly (sharing hp with voidwalker).  With healthstone, voidwalker health then devour, the hellfire aoe isn't as bad as you make it out to be.


If you're specced for 10kHP (Demonology), sure, Hellfire's not an issue.  Of course, it won't be anywhere near as impressive as it would be if you were Destruction-specced.  And again, you've got the problem of a channeled PBAOE.  Not only do you have to rush up into melee range, but your enemy both has to ignore you and not move out of the damage radius to take full damage from the spell.

Hellfire's just not worth the mana to cast (in PvP), considering how quickly it will be interrupted.

Quote
Comparing the overall dps you are mistaken again.  A DPS specced warlock (with imp, and imp talents, and destruction) can frontload a buttload of dps.

...and a DPS specced Mage will out-DPS the DPS Warlock.

Your point?

Quote
One of the top warlocks from beta showed this in many different instance combat parses.  The warlock couldn't out dps the rogues but WAS out dpsing the mage.  Destruction specced warlock is comparable dps with a fire mage (much more dps than frost) when you count the imp.


I read those very same parses.  If you recall:

-The Mage was a Fire Mage.
-The group was fighting highly fire resistant enemies.
-The Mage himself said he was relying primarily on Arcane Missles for damage (a woefully inefficient spell).

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