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Author Topic: WoW newbie  (Read 5639 times)
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Qbert
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« on: June 13, 2005, 07:07:38 PM »

Well, I got WoW, a bit late I know, but better late than never:

http://www.mygeekyplace.com/world_of_warcraft.html

Just level 6, but I'll get up there.

I'm on Argent/horde/undead

What server is everyone on, character name, alliance, etc?
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Raven
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2005, 08:04:24 PM »

Rogues and pallys are very newb friendly. The rogue has stealth, but the pally can summon a horse.

Earning 100 gold, by 40th is not impossible, but you'll have to manage your spending habits.

All crafting is a money-time sink. Take mining and skinning, instead. If you absolutely must be a crafter, herbalism/alchemy would be the way to go.
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Qbert
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2005, 08:21:23 PM »

I'm just bummed that my warlock cannot wear armor.  I feel like I made a wrong choice (that's what I get for not reading the manual)
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Raven
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2005, 08:39:19 PM »

It's not too late to start over. I'd go with an undead or gnome rogue. Take skinning and mining.

Now that I think about it, you might consider a mage.
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Qbert
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2005, 08:41:42 PM »

So warlocks suck?  I picked him for the pet...but I'm a loot whore, and bummed that I can't wear anything or wield the cool weapons.
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Gedd
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2005, 09:07:11 PM »

Uh, you need to play a bit more if you think you can't wield or wear anything. smile

You're basically a caster, so that means you get cloth armor, but you also get a spell shield (demon armor) which will protect you a bit more.  You're still squishy (most casters are), but you're not supposed to be on the front line. In terms of weapons, you can wield swords, staves, daggers (and possibly some others I'm missing).  Understand that you're not going to be meleeing a lot though.

My wife has a warlock and it's a great utility class with some nice DoTs, pets, and some stuff that makes them very group friendly.  I'm pretty sure they're the only class that can CC two mobs at once, and when you consider things like healthstones (basically health potions on a separate timer), soulstones (party wipe protection), and the ability to summon folks, they're great to have around.

You do have some issues, particularly the whole soul shard mechanic which could be cool, but ends up just hogging space in your bags.  Pet pathing can be killer in higher instances, although as a Hunter I've had more pathing problems that my wife.

I'd say give it a try until 20 (pretty easy to get to since you're going to be a good solo-class).  If you don't like, try something else then.

[edit]

Trust me, there will be plenty of loot for you.  Since you fall under a pretty much pure caster role, you'll be able to use loot that mages and priests would want for most of the game as well.
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Qbert
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2005, 09:09:22 PM »

I though warlocks can only use daggers and staves, or wands, or whatever there called.

Back to reading the manual for me.
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Raven
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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2005, 09:16:13 PM »

No WOW class really sucks, but some are more newbie friendly than others.

I'd rank them in this order.

1. Rogue: you get stealth, which is huge
2. Paladin: healing, tanking, and a free mount
3. Mages: massive damage spells, and can teleport
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drifter
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2005, 10:49:48 PM »

The trick with a warlock is that they have no root spells.  If something gets past the pet then its usually time to run.  The voidwalker is definitely you're best buddy when you get him for a long time.

Warlocks also get a "free" mount like the pally
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Qbert
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2005, 11:28:41 PM »

free mount?  how?  i am definitely missing something.
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Raven
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2005, 02:32:14 AM »

All classes can learn how to ride mounts, starting at 40th level. Only warlocks and paladins have the option of summoning a mount, while every other class has to buy theirs.

The skill to ride a mount cost about 10 gold to learn, while the mount itself cost around 90 gold.
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drifter
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2005, 04:16:22 AM »

Warlocks get the Felsteed which they summon to them.  I do not know if there is a cost since I have not played a Warlock up to 50 but everyone has todl me they are free, you do a quest or something.
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VynlSol
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2005, 05:21:19 AM »

When a warlock hits level 40 (at least for horde) all ya have to do in order to get a mount is go to a guy in Ratchet and talk to him.  Wammo-blammo, you've got yourself a felsteed.

A felsteed isn't as fast as a normal "store-bought" mount (40% versus 60% unless Blizzard has changed it) but considering it doesn't cost you anything and the quest to get it really isn't even a quest, it's pretty cool.

I stopped playing my warlock when he hit level 41, rolled a mage and have him to 44 now. I love my mage, even though I had to fork out 100 gold for a horse...
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slackerjoe
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2005, 07:37:46 AM »

Hey Qbert,

I just started a Warlock too and although it's my 3rd character (Rogue-60, Priest-35), I think the Warlock has a lot of potential (I'm on a PVE server, btw).  For one thing, I'm finding my Warlock (currently lvl 10) is leveling as fast as my rogue did early on.  Warlock is a more difficult class to play because you have to manage not only your character, but also your minion.  But a Warlock who plays with skill is invaluable to a party later on.

For your info, here's is my leveling build for my warlock. [This build is to be used to level to 60. At 60, it will be necessary to respec to an "end-game" build.]
It's mainly an affliction build but also there are key pts in the Demonolgy tree to buff your minion.  This build will use lots of life draining for quick leveling and no downtime. Dark Pact will make you very difficult to kill.

Affliction Talents (33 points)

Improved Corruption - 5/5 points
Suppression - 5/5 points
Improved Drain Life - 5/5 points
Improved Life Tap - 2/2 points
Fel Concentration - 5/5 points
Grim Reach - 2/2 points
Nightfall - 2/2 points
Siphon Life - 1/1 point
Shadow Mastery - 5/5 points
Dark Pact - 1/1 point

Demonology Talents (18 points)

Demonic Embrace - 5/5 points
Improved Imp - 3/3 points
Improved Healthstone - 2/2 points
Fel Intellect - 5/5 points
Fel Domination - 1/1 point
Master Summoner - 2/2 points

Order for distibuting talent points:

Level 10-14 Improved Corruption 5/5
Level 15-19 Suppression 5/5
Level 20-24 Fel Concentration 5/5
Level 25-26 Nightfall 2/2
Level 27-28 Grim Reach 2/2
Level 29-33 Improved Drain Life 5/5
Level 34 Siphon Life 1/1
Level 35-39 Shadow Mastery 5/5
Level 40 Dark Pact 1/1
Level 41-45 Demonic Embrace 5/5
Level 46-48 Improved Imp 3/3
Level 49-50 Improved Lifetap 2/2
Level 51-52 Fel Intellect 2/5 (just get 2 pts for now)
Level 53 Fel Domination 1/1
Level 54-56 Fel Intellect 5/5 (get the last 3 pts here)
Level 57 Improved Healthstone 1/2
Level 58-59 Master Summoner 2/2
Level 60 Improved Healthstone 2/2

I gathered this information from various message boards and I think this will be an extremely effective plan.

If any Warlocks out there have a comment about my build, I'd welcome any feedback!

p.s. I think for a final level 60 build, I'll probably go 30Affliction/21Destruction.
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2005, 11:19:05 AM »

Quote from: "Qbert"
Well, I got WoW, a bit late I know, but better late than never:

http://www.mygeekyplace.com/world_of_warcraft.html

Just level 6, but I'll get up there.


One thing to keep in mind is that the journey to 60th in WoW is much more fun than actually being there. Partly due to the ease of leveling and the rich world Blizzard created and partly due to Blizzard's not-so-fast process of rolling out new content. So savor your time leveling up. Don't think of it as a chore to "get to the good stuff" as it is in other MMOL games.

Quote from: "Qbert"
I'm on Argent/horde/undead

What server is everyone on, character name, alliance, etc?


I am on Cenarion Circle (RP server) where I run an all-dwarven roleplaying guild thats been around various MMOL games for 11 years, starting in old Neverwinter Nights on AOL. I do not think many CGers or OOers are on my server though.

Tradeskills can be fun and useful. Pick with what sounds like the most fun for your character. As a tailor you would be able to make cloth armor, sometimes better than what you would currently be wearing. As an alchemist, you would be able to make potions, which, to me, seems in character for a warlock. But note, you have to take herbalism (to gather the herbs) as a main profession as well. Since you can only have two, they would have to be herbalism and alchemy. For tailoring, you do not need a second profession to advance, instead you can pick one of the gathering skills to make some extra cash.

Quote
So warlocks suck? I picked him for the pet...but I'm a loot whore, and bummed that I can't wear anything or wield the cool weapons.


Once you get your voidwalker (I think at 10th level) things turn around drastically for you. Life is much easier. Warlocks offer a group some good utility and damage and can solo very well due to high survivability and limited/no downtime.

Once you get to 10th level or so, you will be able to access the two major horde cities. Travel to Ogremire and just walk around, checking out the other players. You will see lots of high level characters of every class. Then you can get a feel for how "cool" various classes (and races) look and see if warlock is where you want to go.

I know, since its your first character, it seems like you invest a lot of time, but trust me, it is nothing to level up a character to 10th once you learn the ropes a bit. So do not feel like you have to stick with a character because you already leveled him up some. You got 10 character slots per server, so make another race/class if you want to try something out.

One last thing. If you do decide to start over as a new character, remember that you can mail cash and item to your other character via the in-game mail system (although it does cost 30 copper per message). So they would not have to start out copperless.
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Gedd
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2005, 12:09:33 PM »

Quote from: "Qbert"
I though warlocks can only use daggers and staves, or wands, or whatever there called.


From the Warlock FAQ on the official boards:

Quote
Q: What weapons can Warlocks use?
A: We start out with Daggers and wands, and can learn Staves and One-Handed Swords at trainers.


So you do get one additional weapon option, one-handed swords.

Be sure to check that FAQ for some other basic info.  As much as folks condemn the official boards for being full of morons and being generally worthless, there is a lot of good player-compiled information there.
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Qbert
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2005, 12:27:46 PM »

Quote from: "Gedd"
Quote from: "Qbert"
I though warlocks can only use daggers and staves, or wands, or whatever there called.


From the Warlock FAQ on the official boards:

Quote
Q: What weapons can Warlocks use?
A: We start out with Daggers and wands, and can learn Staves and One-Handed Swords at trainers.


So you do get one additional weapon option, one-handed swords.

Be sure to check that FAQ for some other basic info.  As much as folks condemn the official boards for being full of morons and being generally worthless, there is a lot of good player-compiled information there.


Yeah, I went and read the manual last night, and I saw I could use swords.
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2005, 02:42:02 PM »

Quote from: "Gedd"
Be sure to check that FAQ for some other basic info.  As much as folks condemn the official boards for being full of morons and being generally worthless, there is a lot of good player-compiled information there.


There is at least one FAQ for each class (from what Ive seen).  They all seem to be really good in my experience.
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Arkon
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2005, 03:09:18 PM »

While there is much debate about the usefulness of hunters at high levels, they are a wonderfully easy class to solo with.
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Calvin
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2005, 06:04:29 PM »

I did not like the warlock dynamic at all, although I only ever got my warlock guy into the high 20s. I suggest a rogue, hunter, or mage.
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GGMark
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2005, 05:32:55 AM »

many of us alliance are on Whisperwind.  Pantheon of Heroes Guild.  Agate, Cipher, Mangedor, Creepingly, Korrac, and a few others from here.  Wanderers is the guild on Horde side on Whisperwind, but from what I can tell they are pretty much limite to power gamers.  At least thats how its seeming.  Just my outside impression though.  Warlocks are a good class though.  The pets are nice.  Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus, Fellhunter, and the demon at the end.
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Soulchilde
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« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2005, 12:44:57 PM »

Quote from: "GGMark"
many of us alliance are on Whisperwind.  Pantheon of Heroes Guild.  Agate, Cipher, Mangedor, Creepingly, Korrac, and a few others from here.  Wanderers is the guild on Horde side on Whisperwind, but from what I can tell they are pretty much limite to power gamers.  At least thats how its seeming.  Just my outside impression though.  Warlocks are a good class though.  The pets are nice.  Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus, Fellhunter, and the demon at the end.



Not to be picky, but the Wanderers are not a power gaming guild.  We do have some very hard core raiders (shameless selfplug-First  guild to drop Ragnaros on Whisperwind),  but the majority of our membership are very casual in nature.  Check us out at www.thewanderers.us

Next, I have a 44 Warlock and they are a very nice class and I agree with everyone else when soloing the Voidwalker is your very best friend. Warlocks aren't a nuke you down in 2 sec class.  They are a debuffer , i.e curses and a DoT class.  I seriously, suggest trying severals classes especially Shaman.  Probably, the most complete class in the game
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Gedd
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2005, 12:49:05 PM »

Quote from: "GGMark"
Wanderers is the guild on Horde side on Whisperwind, but from what I can tell they are pretty much limite to power gamers.  At least thats how its seeming.


Heh, no way.  We've got some folks that would definitely qualify as power gamers, but we're a mix of both casual and power gamers.  My wife and I have been playing since retail and we just dinged 60 a week and a half ago.  There are lots of folks in the guild in a similar situation. smile
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GGMark
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2005, 03:44:37 PM »

Ok, well let me tell you from someone who has a Rl friend inf Wanderers and follows the forums on Blizz.  Wanderers is nothing like it used to be in the days of DAoC.  They are very cliqu-ie now.  Refusing to help out the people coming up for the most part.  If you didnt reach 60 in the inital group, then your kinda screwed.  They have a slow exodus going on.  They lost the alliance with the guild they had been raiding with.  Its been discussed on thier forums aboiut why they wont help others.  MANY time.  I dont understand why you guys cant see it.  Even on the Blizz forums HERO wants to know why you cant raid in house?  You have more than enough people.  But no one has the time, to help people out.  Friend of mine has been 60 for 120 hours of game time, and has ZERO of his warlords papers.  Cuz no one has the time to go back and help him.  The other day one of the pages spawned in a pretty easy spot to be reached.  When he got to the instance, no one wanted to come kill the 5 mobs in the area so he could grab them.  Wanderers lacks teamwork.  i congrtualte you guys on killing Onyxia, I really do.  I think you became to full of yourselves though.  The Original group now pretty much controls what goes on.  Even the people outside your guild dont understand why you are doing things the way you are.  I live with someone in wanderers.  Level 60.  been that way for at least 2 months now.  And only ONCE has they been able to go with you guys to do something.  No one wants to do the lower end LBRS stuff, becuase you did it already.  Well thats nice, but if you want to be a guild and do things as a guild you need to help the other people out.  I am sorry.  It just irks me that a guild of that size, with that many people, needs to look outside the guild to other people to do what they need to do, when the people inside WANT to help and do it.  Hey, its not my guild, not my problem.  But dont lie to people who are looking for a guild.
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Gedd
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2005, 04:27:22 PM »

Mark, this may not be the place for this, but let me answer a few things. Note that I don't follow what HERO or any other guilds say about us, but as an officer of the overall guild and the WoW guild I do know  what's going on internally.

Quote
Wanderers is nothing like it used to be in the days of DAoC.


I joined Wanderers in the opening days of SWG, and it's true. The WoW guild isn't the same as it was in SWG and I would suspect the same is true of the DAoC days.  As any guild gets larger (and boy did we get larger in WoW), it's going to change.  We've got a lot of new folks with us for WoW, and quite a few of the old guard (although many of those have moved on to Guild Wars).

Quote
They have a slow exodus going on.


Some players have left, some have come back, and we've got some new folks.  Let me say that from my past experience with the guild, it's amazing that we still have a sizeable presence in WoW at all.  In both SWG and CoH, most of the guild had left for something else by the second or third month.

We did have a number of folks leave recently over some of the issues you mentioned (although some of these folks have stuck around with the guild as a whole and are playing GW).  However I think the "exodus" has mostly stabilized at this point.

Quote
They are very cliqu-ie now. Refusing to help out the people coming up for the most part. If you didnt reach 60 in the inital group, then your kinda screwed.


I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but I've had several of the old guard 60s help me get to 60 and work on gearing up.  I also know there was a huge push a couple months ago to get folks keyed up for Onyxia, and many of the old 60s have run instances like LBRS and the like somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40 times.

I will say that it is difficult to get a 60 group together sometimes on nights when there's raids, but this brings us to...

Quote
They lost the alliance with the guild they had been raiding with. Its been discussed on thier forums aboiut why they wont help others. MANY time. I dont understand why you guys cant see it. Even on the Blizz forums HERO wants to know why you cant raid in house? You have more than enough people.


We didn't lose the alliance with the primary guild that we were raiding with, we both decided to go our separate ways and try raiding more in-house.  You'll also note that in our raids we still have folks from that other guild coming with us, there's just less of them.  We also continue to raid with many of our other partners, and some of the old 60s work with the new 60s to get geared up to come as well.

As for the last comment, while we may have several hundred in the guild, we have a lot of folks with alts and a bunch of others that haven't logged on in months.  Doing raids in house would require us to have 40 level 60s, all on at that same time, all able to spend 3-4 hours in Molten Core.

Quote
Friend of mine has been 60 for 120 hours of game time, and has ZERO of his warlords papers. Cuz no one has the time to go back and help him.


Again, this hasn't been my experience.  My wife and I dinged 60 about 10 days ago.  In that time we've been able to get all but her docs.  I've also been in just about every LBRS group that's gone out between 8p-11p EST over the last week (and there have been about 4).  I don't know if your friend is playing odd hours, or if I've just missed his requests for groups.

I'll also mention that during the 4 runs I've done over the last week, that on three of them that I had folks from the old-guard 60s helping us.

If your friend is having issues with the guild, or needs help getting an LBRS group together, I'd suggest he either talk to me, or post about it in our events forum (in the case of the LBRS run).  The officers and warchiefs have been very open to hearing what folks have to say, but we can't always know about problems unless folks tell us.

Quote
But dont lie to people who are looking for a guild.


I can't believe this, but I actually take offense with the accusation that I'm lying here.  You stated the guild is limited to power gamers and I responded that we have a mix, which is absolutely true. If it wasn't, we'd be a guild full of powergamers, everyone would've been 60 by the second month, we'd all be keyed, and we'd be raiding internally.  The *fact* is that we do have a sizeable "casual" contigent that's playing with us.  Heck, my wife and I just reached 60 after having played since launch and we've always had folks to group with during that time.  There are also folks who leveled to 60 in the last month or two, and some who won't hit it for the next few months.  If those people, including myself, aren't casual, then what are they?
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GGMark
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2005, 07:19:04 PM »

I believe in the raiding guildlines set forth by the guild, people who are 1st timers cant go to take away loot from the other people, even though you guys use Dragon Kill points for loot.

I also went and grabbed a couple screenshots of posts from people all the way back to april, looking for warlords command stuff.  And also a post about the split, that didnt happen.










there are at least 4 posts from people STILL looking for warlords command.  And a post by what looks to be a officer about a guild split.  Hmm, I dont know.  Its all about a clique from what I could see.  Like I said.  At least be honest.  Its hard to believe that even the officers in the guild dont see whats goin on under them.  You guys need to buckle down, and help each other out.  

I understand that you cant do RAIDs fully in house yet.  But if you aided the people coming up it wouldnt be a problem.  I also have a hunter friend who tried to buy a BOE piece of equipment from another guild member that he saw in the AH.  He sent a tell offering more than the minimum ask price,  my friend offered 90, which was more than min, but not the buy out price.  the person refused to sell the item to him for 90.  Instead sold it for the 150 to someone else.  I dont know.   Just seems to me like you guys need to help each other out, and not ignore requests daily in channel for 5 man help to do instances for small items that are required by your guidelines to get into the high level raids.  I understand you have done certain things A LOT.  But, some people havent.
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2005, 07:33:01 PM »

One posting from our private forums is a no-no.  Please remove the post, thanks

Next, let me address your issue with Onyxia and MC.  Just because you are ....bah, n/m.  Look it seems you have made your mind up about the Wanderers.  Me being a longtime member since DAoC feels differently.  Alot of us have no problem running lbrs, but again SOME of us have ran that place hundreds of times...you know what n/m.  

Your friend should talk to a Warchief.  PM them from the website or /tell them in game.


Forge
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Wanderers
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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2005, 08:03:24 PM »

Quote from: "GGMark"
I believe in the raiding guildlines set forth by the guild, people who are 1st timers cant go to take away loot from the other people, even though you guys use Dragon Kill points for loot.


One thing to keep in mind is that those rules are used for everyone who raids with us, not just the folks from the guild.  The rule was dropped into place to prevent folks from just dropping in for one raid and then splitting with a piece of loot and never coming back.  Considering there are raids going 3 or 4 times a week, and that you could go ahead and purchase something on the second raid, it's not really that big an issue is it?

I also went and grabbed a couple screenshots of posts from people all the way back to april[/quote]

As Forge said, those threads are from a restricted access forum (only guildies can view them) and while there's nothing super-secret in there, posting them in a public area is bad form.

Quote
I also went and grabbed a couple screenshots of posts from people all the way back to april, looking for warlords command stuff.


I won't argue that some folks haven't had difficulty getting Warlord's Command groups together.  I'm just posting my experience.  I have no idea why Firewalker had so much difficulty, whether he was working odd hours, a limited window of opportunity, went off to play an alt, or whether the guild snubbed him.

Quote
And also a post about the split, that didnt happen.


You said:

Quote
They lost the alliance with the guild they had been raiding with.


This is what I said:

Quote
We didn't lose the alliance with the primary guild that we were raiding with, we both decided to go our separate ways and try raiding more in-house.


The split happened.  "Losing" the alliance seems to indicate that we did something to drive off the other guild, or that we were now somehow less capable with them gone.  What I said about both guilds deciding to try raiding separately was true, as is the fact that in the last week we've still had some members of that guild raiding with us.

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there are at least 4 posts from people STILL looking for warlords command.


Of the 4 people who posted about WC, only one was a repeat.  In fact, Daveman reported he was done with Warlord's Command on 4/29. I seem to recall Tikiman finished his WC pretty soon thereafter.  Firewalker did actually get WC finished on 5/29, so I'm not sure why he was posting about it afterwards.

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At least be honest.


I am being honest, I've got no reason to lie about it.  If we were a bunch of power gamers, would that be something I should be ashamed of?  It's not like I'm just saying this as an officer...I'm playing in this game as a somewhat casual player.

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Its hard to believe that even the officers in the guild dont see whats goin on under them.  You guys need to buckle down, and help each other out.  


We did see some issues, particularly when folks raised flags about things.  We talked about it, both publicly and privately, made some changes. Things are perfect now, but I haven't heard any complaints from the "casual" group in a long time.  If there's still issues, someone should be talking with us.

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I understand that you cant do RAIDs fully in house yet.  But if you aided the people coming up it wouldnt be a problem.


It would be less of a problem, and to some degree the old 60s are helping us new 60s move up as I described before.  There will still be issues getting that many people geared up and then getting together at the same time for long runs, but more folks are getting involved with the raids from within.

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I understand you have done certain things A LOT.  But, some people havent.


Some haven't, like many of the new 60s, and those are the folks currently getting together and doing these runs, mixed in with some of the old 60s.  But just about all of the old 60s *had* to run places like LBRS tons of times to get their gear and to help other old 60s get their gear as well, as well as for things like Warlord's Command.

And while it would be ideal for a perfect 5 man group to form instantly whenever someone wants to get their documents, folks are typically doing things, whether it be raids (like I said, about 4 nights a week) or messing around with the new battlegrounds and the like.  You can't always expect folks to just drop whatever they're doing and spend the next 3+ hours in an instance with you, although a lot of times it does work out that way.  That's why I suggested using the events forum to try to pull together folks before the night you want to go.
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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2005, 02:26:17 AM »

Jeez.

Anyway, I just offered because you expressed wanting to be on a PvP server (I believe Wanderers is on a PvE server)
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GGMark
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« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2005, 04:44:35 AM »

Ok.  I didnt mean to start a fight, I even paid a compliment to you guys for your accomplishments.  My 'beef' was that to a lot of people in guild, and outside you are not very friendly anymore.  I am not going to go back and forth on all these issues.  You see things from where you see them, and I see things from where I see them.  I have some more clips I would like you to see.  Maybe the problem is that officer people arent around when the things are being said.  My friends, both of them have said something to officers in the passed, personally and in guild chat.

Here are some clips from guild chat tonight.  You can make your decsions as to what they mean.  

<edited>-  I wanted to clarify these are clips pertaining to the MC Raid.











Not only is thier talk about not wanting to teach people things.  But there is talk about how things cant be done becuase of the 'split bug'.  Its been said in your own forums.  And its been said in your own guild chat.  Personally it affects ME not at all.  But it affects people who are my friends.  One of which sought you out based on my recommendation from DAoC.  Now these aren't just people that I know.  I have been friends with one for about 10 years, we went to High School together.  The other is someone close to me.  If this is going on, and you don't know about it, then I am sorry.  I can imagine that a guild Wanderers size is tough to manage.  But there is proof of what some of the people who are in the clique are saying.
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Gedd
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« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2005, 12:56:39 PM »

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Not only is thier talk about not wanting to teach people things. But there is talk about how things cant be done becuase of the 'split bug'.


I was actually on for that conversation last night, but I was in LBRS at the time and it was hard to keep up with.  Just FYI, the raiders has a problem forming up the other night because of the split bug, where some folks were saved to a different Molten Core instance than they should've been, so the group couldn't go.  Decision was made to go last night with the folks who were saved to the correct instance, but not enough folks showed up, meaning that it would've taken roughly a dozen new 60s to get a full raid going.

The issue last night, and one missing from your screen caps of guild chat, is that the raid had already cleared many of the bosses and were up to some of the tougher fights, starting with Geddon.  I've never been to MC yet (still working on building up my gear and working through many of the regular instances), but from what was said last night and elsewhere you don't want to start out learning MC from half-way in, particularly with Geddon.  There were folks in chat last night more than willing to teach folks, but a few thought it wasn't the best boss to cut your teeth on. Honestly, I doubt they run would've gone off anyway, as a lot of us were already wrapped up in other instances.

And just FYI, the leader of last night's raid took myself and some other folks through DM North and took the time to teach us how to do a Tribute Run.  We also had several folks make it through the dragon killing step of the Onyxia key quest as well.

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Ok. I didnt mean to start a fight, I even paid a compliment to you guys for your accomplishments. My 'beef' was that to a lot of people in guild, and outside you are not very friendly anymore.


And my only real issue with what you said was labeling us as powergamers, when we're made up with a mix of both casual and powergamers.  That and the part where you accused me of lying.

In all honesty, we have some folks in the guild who aren't the friendliest.  It'd be easy to focus on these people and say the guild as a whole isn't friendly.  The fact is that we also have a lot of folks in the guild who are friendly, who are more than willing to help, and who embody the Wanderer spirit of old.

Anyway, sorry to muck up your thread Q...I fully didn't expect it to go this far, but if someone is going to paint us as a powergaming guild, then as a casual member I'm going to present my point of view.
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« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2005, 03:46:09 PM »

I have no first hand knowledge of the situation, but just as an observer it would seem to me that your experience with the clique group(s), Gedd, is a little skewed.  You said you were an officer in the guild.  That means that the clique groups are going to include you and be nice to you since you have the power to shake things up and influence other officers, including the guild leader.  But people who aren't in such a position and haven't "earned" their way into the clique won't get the same welcoming treatment.
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Gedd
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« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2005, 04:17:14 PM »

You might think that Scuba, but the funny thing is a lot of folks in the guild don't even realize I'm an officer.  I took a very low-key position with the WoW guild (Treasurer who collects money with an alt), and I've never made a habit of saying "Hey guys, come group with me I'm an officer!" However, it is certainly possible that my view has been skewed a bit by my rank.

And FYI, if there's a clique comprised of these folks who rushed to 60 and are accomplished raiders, I certainly haven't worked my way into it. If I had, I wouldn't have any trouble pulling together LBRS groups. As it is, most of the folks that I've grouped with for LBRS have either been new 60s (folks working on their key) or a few folks I know out of guild, and even talking to a few of our raiding partners in other guilds.

One of the reasons folks (at least on the Horde side) have trouble getting Warlord's Command finished is because LBRS is by far one of the worst instances in the game.  It's long, you're frequently dealing with large pulls, it's got one of the most frustrating mob groups in the game (the spider zergs), it's difficult to fight in due to all the ledges and line of site issues, and there's been weird aggro attributed to all sorts of things like roaches pulling groups (laugh, but I saw it happen last night).  You can split it up into somewhat more manageable chunks, but because of the way the documents work you can't guarantee that the part you're running will have them.

As a side discussion on the clique phenomenon in WoW...

My observation of the situation is the clique thing is mostly derived from the fact that you tend to spend time grouping with the folks who are leveling at the same rate.  Because there's no sort of sidekick functionality akin to CoH's well thought out system (that I wish every MMO would somehow try to emulate), you spend a lot of time with the folks close to your level.  When you find folks that play at the same time as you, are around the same level, and leveling at the same rate, you're going to naturally gravitate towards playing and interacting with those people. Even into the 60s those folks who you've been leveling with tend to be going after the same goals, and are at the same spot in terms of gear, so you naturally tend to group with them more.
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GGMark
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« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2005, 05:30:55 AM »

Quote from: "Gedd"


As a side discussion on the clique phenomenon in WoW...

My observation of the situation is the clique thing is mostly derived from the fact that you tend to spend time grouping with the folks who are leveling at the same rate.  Because there's no sort of sidekick functionality akin to CoH's well thought out system (that I wish every MMO would somehow try to emulate), you spend a lot of time with the folks close to your level.  When you find folks that play at the same time as you, are around the same level, and leveling at the same rate, you're going to naturally gravitate towards playing and interacting with those people. Even into the 60s those folks who you've been leveling with tend to be going after the same goals, and are at the same spot in terms of gear, so you naturally tend to group with them more.


Thats understandable.  The fact that you group with people who are your level.  I do it.  Everyone does it.  But, there are points where when you are in a guild that you lend a hand to the people below you.  I stopped what I was doing in Winterspring today, being 2 bars from 60, to make a run through Zul Furrak for two people in the guild who only needed to kill Gahzrilla, and do the temple/rod quest in there.

You dont think its odd that many of the people in your guild who play during the times you mentioned cannot, even with near begging, to get a group for LBRS, yet you and your wife managed to nearly finish the quest in 10 days.  And also were ASKED specifically if you needed to still go?  

I know that one of your members couldn't get his quests done, or groups for them, left to another guild, and became raid leader there.  It just seems to me, and I guess maybe its becuase i am outside, and I only hear of it from what I see, and what I am told.  That the teamwork with the high/older groups, helping the lower/60 groups is lacking.  I know that it HAS been addressed to officers through tells, in the forums, and in Guild Chat, and its just sort of glossed over.  

Maybe, not you specifically, since you moved up, but it seems there is sort of a blind spot there.  That you dont see it going on, becuase for officers, and people in positions like yourself, it doesn't exist.  I would think though that with multiple complaints, and posts regarding it.  I know you dont want clips from the WAnderers forum, but I know they are in there.  That it's still going on.  Or maybe some just feel that people are whining about wanting to do it.  You have to start early to teach people to work in the high end.  We take low level people through SM, on a regular basis.  Letting them learn to work together as a group so that when we need help in the high end.  Its there.  We dont have to worry about teaching them anything, really.

I think, personally, a lot of the issues arise from the amount of people in the guild.  It's very large, and hard to manage, I am sure.  Being in one of the top 10 guilds, Alliance side, people wise.  I know we have issues with people feeling like they cant get help with something.  Or that people ignore them.  So, what we do, is take a day, or even just a couple hours to help them out.  I mean at level 60 if you want to really accomplish anyting you needs hours.  And it takes time to prepare for that sort of thing.  IN the meantime, you can aide others.

I didn't intend to argue, or create a hatred/anger towards me, and I hold no malice towards you.  But you told me things weren't so.  So I gave verbal examples.  And you told me they weren't so.  I have visual examples and you told me that it wasn'y so.  So I gave more visual examples, and again, you told me it wasn't so.  You are using your own instances as examples and thats fine, because thats what you have to work with.  But, i know many instances, not my own, where what I have said IS going on.  Really all I would like, is for you to just look.  People I talk to feel they are being alienated from members of the guild.  Thats all, I suppose.
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« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2005, 02:09:39 PM »

Quote from: "GGMark"
You dont think its odd that many of the people in your guild who play during the times you mentioned cannot, even with near begging, to get a group for LBRS, yet you and your wife managed to nearly finish the quest in 10 days.  And also were ASKED specifically if you needed to still go?


I will admit that it's fully possible that there are a few guildies that have had trouble over the last few months getting LBRS groups together. What I can't tell you is why.  What I can tell you, is that it's not just my wife and I who have wrapped up Warlord's Command in the last 10 days.  I can tell you of at least two other players off the top of my head who have finished it, fairly quickly, fairly recently.

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It just seems to me, and I guess maybe its becuase i am outside, and I only hear of it from what I see, and what I am told.  That the teamwork with the high/older groups, helping the lower/60 groups is lacking.  I know that it HAS been addressed to officers through tells, in the forums, and in Guild Chat, and its just sort of glossed over.


There was a pretty big discussion that happened on our boards several months ago on this subject.  Officers were involved, both publicly and privately, and some things were done to try to correct the issue, including a period of time where an officer got together a list of all the players in the guild who were 60 and needed to get their Onyxia key quests done.  A lot of folks got worked through the chain during that time, and a lot of the old 60s spent a lot of time running through instances that they'd been through dozens of times already.  Lots of folks got keyed during that time.

Since that time, I haven't seen any complaints on the issue of old 60s not helping new 60s.  Maybe it happened in tells that I wasn't a part of.  Maybe it was in PMs that I wasn't included in on.  Maybe those folks left or just didn't feel it was worth their time to try to bring up the issue anymore.  All I know is that we went from a time where folks were regularly trying to talk about the issue, to where it's not anymore.

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Maybe, not you specifically, since you moved up, but it seems there is sort of a blind spot there.


Maybe there is, but the blind spot can work both ways.  We had a lot of folks who focused completely on the negative stuff that was happening and were completely oblivious to the good stuff that was going on.  People would say that no one helped anyone, and then several folks would say that they got help, or were helping other folks, but people couldn't necessarily see it because it's not like people announce in guild chat or post on the board that someone ran them through such and such an instance.  Folks tend to say "looking for group, please!" in guild chat, but say "Thanks for the help" in party or tells which isn't public.

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That you dont see it going on, becuase for officers, and people in positions like yourself, it doesn't exist.


I'll say it again, most folks don't realize I'm a guild officer, and I'm not so blind as to not see when someone is helping me just because of my position. The reason I rarely had a hard time finding groups for instances when I was leveling was because of what I described above, I made a lot of use in the events forum, but more importantly I sought out those players in my level range who were playing about the same time and same rate as I was.  You might even say I formed a clique of players that I went through most of the low to sub-60 instances with (although I've also helped others with their instance runs at times).

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I think, personally, a lot of the issues arise from the amount of people in the guild.  It's very large, and hard to manage, I am sure.  


It is partly due to the size of the guild. It's also because we try to be as hands-off in terms of setting up rules as we can.  We want folks to help, but we don't want to get to the point where we're telling folks what to do, so we tried to provide tools like the forums for folks to get together, and let the players use them. If a player can't get a group together, sometimes we'll try to help them, but we can't say "Hey guildie, stop what you're doing and go help this guy."  All we can do is ask, or point the guy looking for a group to someone who might be able to go.

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I didn't intend to argue, or create a hatred/anger towards me, and I hold no malice towards you.  But you told me things weren't so.  So I gave verbal examples.  And you told me they weren't so.  I have visual examples and you told me that it wasn'y so.  So I gave more visual examples, and again, you told me it wasn't so.  You are using your own instances as examples and thats fine, because thats what you have to work with.  But, i know many instances, not my own, where what I have said IS going on.


While I've used my own personal experiences, I've also used those of others.  I've also tried to provide some context to the examples you've posted, since you're not in the guild and I assume that most of your information is gathered second-hand, most likely out of the frustrations that your friend is having. I've read every post on the board, and I often know what's happened in-game as the result of those posts, at least if it happened when I was on.  When you point out issues, I'm not necessarily denying that they occur, I'm simply saying that in some cases those issues resolved, but you wouldn't see a forum post about it and your friend might not have seen it in guild chat.  Folks can also sit there and point at a few instances of things going on and say that's representative of the guild as a whole, when in fact they're just normal issues that a lot of guilds, particularly larger ones, go through and they miss a lot of the good going on as well.

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Really all I would like, is for you to just look.  People I talk to feel they are being alienated from members of the guild.  Thats all, I suppose.


Honestly, I appreciate you bringing this up (although I'm not sure we should've bogged down Q's thread with it).  If nothing else, I know there's at least one guildie out there who is still upset over some of the same issues we discussed a few months ago. There's not a whole lot that I can do at this point except to keep it in mind unless I get some more information from that guildie, so once again I'd recommend they PM an officer, either myself or one of the others who they may be more comfortable with.

In the end, all I wanted to do was give what I think is the most accurate description of our guild because you characterized us as being limited to powergamers.  I've said it on the Wanderer boards, but we're not a casual guild, we're a guild with casual players. We're not a hardcore guild, we're a guild with hardcore players.  We're not a PvP guild, we're a guild with folks who like to PvP. We're not a raiding guild, we're a guild with folks who raid.  We try to cater to all different sorts, and try to foster an environment where people respect each other and can play free of l33t attitudes, ninja looters, overly strict rules, and so forth.  It's not always 100% successful, but it's our goal.  I can't really say much more than thhat to try to convince folks otherwise.
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