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Author Topic: WoW: it's a WAR out there, man! (Dueling)  (Read 5113 times)
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unbreakable
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« on: December 09, 2004, 01:35:04 AM »

W00T!!!  I won my first post-release duel today!

Me: 23 priest
Opponent: 23 warrior

and DAMN, it wasnt even close.  Power Word: Shield, DD, DD, take a few hits, DD, Psychic Scream, DD, DD, Power Word: Shield, DD a few more times, finish off final HPs with mace.  I finished with about 80% of my HP.
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Andy22
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2004, 01:03:57 PM »

Which is the very reason I shelved my level 15 warrior and started a Night Elf Rogue. I got sick of losing half my health to mobs that were right at my level. So far at level 5 I am very happy with my new character.
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2004, 01:26:14 PM »

Yep.  Doesn't surprise me.  

The way that Blizzard implemented the Warrior (in concept) is great.  Now they just need to give them a bit of love, and the ship should right itself.

When that will be is another story...


LD   :wink:
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2004, 01:43:13 PM »

Quote from: "Andy22"
Which is the very reason I shelved my level 15 warrior and started a Night Elf Rogue. I got sick of losing half my health to mobs that were right at my level. So far at level 5 I am very happy with my new character.



That makes me sad.  I played a warrior through most of Alpha and Beta, and damn did they kick ass.  Especially when they allowed charge to be used in combat.  Well, they were actually way too strong.  But still...!  

I remember soloing things 3 - 4 levels above me.  If I was soloing things of equal level, I could do so nonstop without ever having to sit down and break.  Warriors weren't always so weak and pathetic.
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2004, 02:37:25 PM »

My warrior didn't seem to come around until around level 22-24...now he a duel wielding, dealer of death.  biggrin

I played a druid and a mage up to maybe 15 each during open beta, so I think my biggest problem in the beginning was my strategy. I thought "The warrior should be an easy class to play. Just wade on in and start chopping!" Wrong! It's much tougher than either the druid or mage, by a long shot. I end up using many more of my skills in a fight than with the other classes....it's a mad frenzy of stance and target switching.

I'm not sure how other classes fare at my current level, but soloing three equal cons are my absolute maximum if I break out my shield...not that I'm batting 100% or look for three at a time.

Anyhow, I'm not sure what the warrior was like in beta but I don't think it's nearly as gimped as you would imagine from the official forums.
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2004, 03:30:30 PM »

Quote from: "Booner"
Anyhow, I'm not sure what the warrior was like in beta but I don't think it's nearly as gimped as you would imagine from the official forums.


Warriors, in beta prior to the infamous "awesome changes" patch (this patch Blizzard said had some "awesome changes" for warriors and what it did was nerf pratically every good warrior ability. i am still pissed about that  :x  If you are going to nerf me, don't try to blow smoke up my ass by saying that these are "awesome" changes, I am not a idiot) could solo in PvE as effectively as hunters and paladins do currently. Now they are but a shadow of their former PvE abiltiy. They could also effectively taunt multiple mobs when needed due to how taunt was implemented. After patch, it became a lot worse. This causes problem mainly due to high-level instances being designed with the old taunt in mind and not adjusted for the new taunt.

Also, the hitpoints and stat bonus you get as you level up are either bugged or Blizzard is smoking something. Stamina increases that are gain during level up do not grant any more hitpoints than someone that levels with no stamina increase on level up. For example, if a mage gains a level he might get 15 hps and no stamina increase. A same-level warrior gains a level and he gets 15hps and +2 more stamina. Yet he gets only 15 extra hps. He gets no extra hps from the +2 more stamina.

The end result is that mages (and every other class) can have the same hps as warriors even though the warriors have a much higher stamina stat. As of yet, Blizzard has not acknowledged that this is a bug or whether it is working as intended.

You might not feel gimped now, but believe me when i say its coming. When hunter pets and paladins hold agro 10 times better than you, you start feeling gimped.
When you see a hunter, at 51st level, taking out 3 mobs at one time that you, as a 51st warrior, must take one at a time, you start feeling gimped.
When every single class in the game consistantly destroys you in PvP, you start feeling gimped.
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2004, 03:41:54 PM »

Quote
The end result is that mages (and every other class) can have the same hps as warriors even though the warriors have a much higher stamina stat. As of yet, Blizzard has not acknowledged that this is a bug or whether it is working as intended.


Can or do? I have over 300 more hp than an guild mage who is four levels ahead of me....granted I have damn fine hand-me-down gear from our guilds high level warriors. smile
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2004, 03:56:07 PM »

Quote from: "Booner"
Quote
The end result is that mages (and every other class) can have the same hps as warriors even though the warriors have a much higher stamina stat. As of yet, Blizzard has not acknowledged that this is a bug or whether it is working as intended.


Can or do? I have over 300 more hp than an guild mage who is four levels ahead of me....granted I have damn fine hand-me-down gear from our guilds high level warriors. smile


That is because most of said gear more than likely has +stamina on them.

+stamina from items do increase hitpoints as you would assume. +stamina gained from leveling, does not.

If the guild mage wore items that added +stamina instead of +intellect and +spirit, then he would have the same.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2004, 04:01:06 PM »

Quote from: "Toe"
Quote from: "Booner"
Quote
The end result is that mages (and every other class) can have the same hps as warriors even though the warriors have a much higher stamina stat. As of yet, Blizzard has not acknowledged that this is a bug or whether it is working as intended.


Can or do? I have over 300 more hp than an guild mage who is four levels ahead of me....granted I have damn fine hand-me-down gear from our guilds high level warriors. smile


That is because most of said gear more than likely has +stamina on them.

+stamina from items do increase hitpoints as you would assume. +stamina gained from leveling, does not.

If the guild mage wore items that added +stamina instead of +intellect and +spirit, then he would have the same.

I guess I'll have to watch my hits when I level with my warrior, but let me say that that makes zero sense that only bonus stamina adds to you're health.  It could be a bug, but I have a hard time believing that is intentional.

s
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2004, 04:02:39 PM »

well regardless, a mage probably wouldn't be smart to wear that much stamina gear, as most int gear doesn't have stamina as well from what I've seen. Int=damage for a mage(I think), so you'll want to increase that.

If a tank type gets close to a mage type, it's over anyway, mages do not absorb much damage(early at least) due to the much lower Armor Class.


I agree that the stamina thing must be a bug though.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2004, 04:04:51 PM »

I keep hearing how gimped warriors are and I don't see it. Killing a level 40 elite with a small group myself, 2 hunters, 1 warrior. I'm the highest 35 (paladin) the rest are 34. The warrior gets aggro and keeps it untill I heal him. Now I had aggro for less then a minute and my health just plummets I mean drops to squat in no time. He's been in front of this mob for well over 2 minutes now with me healing him whereas I managed to get his attention for 30 seconds and I'm shitting bricks.  His damage mitagation is leaps and bounds far above what mine is. I couldn't of tanked that mob. I would of had to use divine protection and heal myself and the mob would of attacked someone else.

I don't buy it, a level lower then myself and out tanking the hell out of me and doing a fine job at it.  Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but I think warriors are fine.


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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2004, 04:14:07 PM »

Here I was happy that I won a duel, and you guys start saying its because Warriors suck.

Thanks for harshing my mellow   :cry:
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Toe
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2004, 04:38:01 PM »

Quote from: "Ascendent"
I keep hearing how gimped warriors are and I don't see it. Killing a level 40 elite with a small group myself, 2 hunters, 1 warrior. I'm the highest 35 (paladin) the rest are 34. The warrior gets aggro and keeps it untill I heal him. Now I had aggro for less then a minute and my health just plummets I mean drops to squat in no time. He's been in front of this mob for well over 2 minutes now with me healing him whereas I managed to get his attention for 30 seconds and I'm shitting bricks.  His damage mitagation is leaps and bounds far above what mine is. I couldn't of tanked that mob. I would of had to use divine protection and heal myself and the mob would of attacked someone else.

I don't buy it, a level lower then myself and out tanking the hell out of me and doing a fine job at it.  Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but I think warriors are fine.


Since hitpoints and armor are going to be the same between a paladin and a warrior, the only other factor in damage mitagation is talents.

If you care to look at the defensive talents of a paladin and warrior you will see that a paladin come out ahead in the damage mitagation game especially if factoring in the ability to heal yourself and defensive aura.

The vast majority of people who say warriors are "fine" do not know what they are talking about.

If you were defensive specced and had the same equipment as the warrior, you could easily tank that mob and hold agro better.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2004, 04:39:36 PM »

Don't worry unbreakable...a warrior is perfectly able to win a duel.  Tongue
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2004, 04:43:11 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Here I was happy that I won a duel, and you guys start saying its because Warriors suck.

Thanks for harshing my mellow   :cry:


Yeah, you didn't win because you are good, you won because warriors suck.  Go out and get in a real fight if you want to prove your manliness -- take out a hunter or something.  Girly-man.  slywink

By the way, I haven't been in a duel yet, although I've been challenged a couple of times, typically by guys 3 or 4 levels higher than I am.  Guess priests are just intimidating.
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2004, 05:31:00 PM »

Quote from: "Butterknife"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Here I was happy that I won a duel, and you guys start saying its because Warriors suck.

Thanks for harshing my mellow   :cry:


Yeah, you didn't win because you are good, you won because warriors suck.  Go out and get in a real fight if you want to prove your manliness -- take out a hunter or something.  Girly-man.  slywink

By the way, I haven't been in a duel yet, although I've been challenged a couple of times, typically by guys 3 or 4 levels higher than I am.  Guess priests are just intimidating.

Priests are surprisingly strong in PvP.  I came darn close to taking out a druid 4 levels above me with my priest.  I had him to almost nothing, but he got in one lucky heal and I was too low on mana to finish him off.  Great fight though.  It's surprising to me how many tactics there really are to fighting in WoW.

I also fought a rogue a level below me and got decimated.  I threw up my PW:S, but man, it's like it wasn't there.  I don't know if he got like the magic shot that interupted it, or if he just got a critical that droped my shield fast, but I could barely get any spells off before I was on the ground.  He was just brutal with those two daggers.

s
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2004, 05:34:09 PM »

I'm not going to turn this into a pissing contest I really don't care enough. But from what I saw he did his job better then I could of, for me right there that says that as tanks they aren't broken.

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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2004, 06:33:29 PM »

Quote from: "Ascendent"
I'm not going to turn this into a pissing contest I really don't care enough. But from what I saw he did his job better then I could of, for me right there that says that as tanks they aren't broken.


Thats a mighty be assumption based on that one PvE battle.

Do you think its possible that you might not be aware of all the problems that plague warriors in both the PvE and PvP arena across the relevant level ranges of, say, 10-60?

A lot of warriors have had experience in that area. And almost every one of them whole-heartedly agree that warriors are gimped. Not gimped based on previous builds. Gimped compared to every other melee class out there.

Heck, even most paladins agree that warriors are subpar in all facets of tanking (mitagating damage, holding agro, and DPS) and wants Blizzard to improve them.

Please, do not take my word for it, peruse the Blizzard boards and see the outcry. Read past the 15th level warriors claiming "warriors rock!" and the perpetual whiners that would complain about anything. You will find that experience warriors all agree they are as bad as what I am saying.
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2004, 06:42:47 PM »

Quote from: "Toe"

Please, do not take my word for it, peruse the Blizzard boards and see the outcry.


Ooop, there's the problem right there. Reading those boards guarantees to lower your IQ by 10 points. I remember seeing all the whining the mages did at the end of OB after they patched them, and now there's relatively little when Blizzard did absolutely nothing to them in the meantime.

Now I think the warriors are a bit underpowered, and Blizzard even admits this to some extent, but but I wouldn't base your opinion on a bunch of hysterical 12 year-olds who can't spell the word "the". Basically I think the class needs a bit of tweaking, not a major overhaul.
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2004, 12:44:19 AM »

Ok, screw you guys  Tongue

I beat an enemy Warlock today, it wasnt even close, but it was highly funny!

Power Word: Shield, Mind Control, have warlock attack pet, see warlock die  :twisted:

Wait for warlock to revive himself, hit with Power Word: Pain, chase Warlock to keep up PW:Pain, watch warlock die, again.
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2004, 05:38:38 PM »

I don't seem to have any problems with my level 28.  I can usually solo mobs my level or lower with no problems, unless of course they are elites.  If I am being hit by multiple enemies I have learned that effective use of abilities is the key to surviving.  My only complaints would be that they do seem to be a little light when it comes to hitpoints, and they also seem to miss alot when you are dual wielding.  Other than than that, I don't really see a problem with them.  Of course this may change when I get into the 35-45 range.

Glycerine
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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2004, 06:00:21 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
W00T!!!  I won my first post-release duel today!

Me: 23 priest
Opponent: 23 warrior

and DAMN, it wasnt even close.  Power Word: Shield, DD, DD, take a few hits, DD, Psychic Scream, DD, DD, Power Word: Shield, DD a few more times, finish off final HPs with mace.  I finished with about 80% of my HP.

Not to be a jackass, but you were fighting a Warrior.  They're like shooting fish in a barrel.
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« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2004, 06:06:51 PM »

Quote from: "Booner"
Don't worry unbreakable...a warrior is perfectly able to win a duel.  Tongue

Hypothetically.  I've never actually seen it happen, though.

And congrats on your Warlock victory, though again, they aren't much of a problem.  You just happen to have picked the two most gimped classes to duel against (and a Shadow Priest is one of the absolute best duelers in the game to boot).   smile
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« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2004, 06:24:08 PM »

Quote
Not to be a jackass, but you were fighting a Warrior. They're like shooting fish in a barrel.


Kinda like the Paladin is in DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot). I got a Paladin all the up to 46 in DAoC and never had gotten very far in the battlegrounds until some Theurgist or Scout killed me in 3-4 hits.  Scouts could one shot me if they were even 3-4 levels higher.

Much different from the Paladins in WoW.
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« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2004, 06:49:43 PM »

Well, I did almost beat a paladin twice, but the first time I (ahem) hit the wrong button for a spell, and the rematch I missed on what would have been the killing blow (I was oom, of course).  Plus, he was one level higher than me.

But my talents are all messed up, I dont really like how I laid them out.  Im going to respec into shadow, and save most of the enhancement stuff for later.  It isnt so bad in PvE, but in PvP it becomes very noticable.  And I keep noticing times when having Mind Flay would come in handy.

BTW, how the hell do paladins do so much damage in one blow?
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« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2004, 07:05:23 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Hypothetically.  I've never actually seen it happen, though.


That's funny, because on my server I've seen warriors take down other classes that were several levels higher than they were...with ease.  Maybe the people on your server don't know how to play the class.

Glycerine
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« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2004, 07:13:13 PM »

Quote from: "Glycerine"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Hypothetically.  I've never actually seen it happen, though.


That's funny, because on my server I've seen warriors take down other classes that were several levels higher than they were...with ease.  Maybe the people on your server don't know how to play the class.

Glycerine


This is pure insanity. I am an experienced closed beta warrior. I have a 38 warrior decked out in half blue/half good green stuff. I had the Whirlwind axe at 30freaking1, I have two fantastic 1h weapons for dual wield.

It is a STRUGGLE to kill a 40, I mean a rip roaring struggle. PvP? Havent done it much with the warrior-a few duals and a couple instances of real PvP, and each time i was slaughtered. For the hell of it I fought a Pally a couple levels lower than me near the docks a few days ago-I am sure the Almost Heroes will attest that I am not a newb as you seem to suggest you need to be to lose as a warrior-to say that I barely damaged him would be something of an understatement. I did manage to take down an Undead priest in PvP in westfall, but he was concentrating on another guy and was a couple levels lower than me.

As someone with quite a bit of experience wiht warriors, my final opinion is that they are, in their current state, completely broken. They simply DO NOT function as indicated or designed, and that is a goddamn shame.

I played a mage to 42 before realizing blizzard had no intention of fixing a class that they had continually and habitually nerfed into mediocrity and boredom. They did the same thing to the warrior, and now my attention must turn else where.
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« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2004, 07:33:08 PM »

Quote from: "Glycerine"
That's funny, because on my server I've seen warriors take down other classes that were several levels higher than they were...with ease.  Maybe the people on your server don't know how to play the class.

Glycerine


First, I'm on a PvP server.  I've seen sanctioned duels, raids, small squad tactics, baits, pulls, amphibious assaults (not kidding), and more.

In the 100+ PvP combat situations I've been in, I have never died to a Warrior.  Never.  Not a orange or red con Warrior.  Not a ?? Warrior.  Yes, I've run from Warriors with a significant number of levels on me -- but I've never actually died to one.  And I've killed several.

But you're right, Glycerine.  I'm sure just the 50 individual players behind those Warriors I've encountered didn't know how to play their characters.  That's it.     :roll:
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« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2004, 09:29:03 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
First, I'm on a PvP server.  I've seen sanctioned duels, raids, small squad tactics, baits, pulls, amphibious assaults (not kidding), and more.

In the 100+ PvP combat situations I've been in, I have never died to a Warrior.  Never.  Not a orange or red con Warrior.  Not a ?? Warrior.  Yes, I've run from Warriors with a significant number of levels on me -- but I've never actually died to one.  And I've killed several.

But you're right, Glycerine.  I'm sure just the 50 individual players behind those Warriors I've encountered didn't know how to play their characters.  That's it.     :roll:


I'm on Stormreaver, which is PvP as well.  You can roll your eyes all you want, but the fact is there are people on there who do know how to play the class and can win.  Maybe you need to find a new server?  Maybe the one you are playing on isn't challenging those l33t skills of yours, eh?  Or maybe you are just running your mouth like you usually do...  Hmmm...I wonder which it could be...

Glycerine
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« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2004, 09:52:22 PM »

Quote from: "Rage"
This is pure insanity. I am an experienced closed beta warrior. I have a 38 warrior decked out in half blue/half good green stuff. I had the Whirlwind axe at 30freaking1, I have two fantastic 1h weapons for dual wield.


Insane or not, it has happened.  I don't do duels myself mainly because it takes time away from leveling, so I am just telling you what I have seen while running through x-roads, org, undercity, etc.  Right off the top of my head I can think of at least a few entertaining duels I watched where a lower level warrior has beaten a higher level warlock, priest, shaman, and hunter.  Believe it or not, it happens.  I've also seen warriors lose to classes lower than themselves, so it goes both ways.  These are all horde vs. horde, so I really have no clue regarding warrior vs. paladin.

I'm not trying to say that the warrior is perfect.  As I stated above I do agree that Blizzard needs to do some more work on the class.  I'm also not trying to say anyone "sucks", that was supposed to be a wise-crack.    Maybe it was in poor taste but that never stops Ebonstone so I didn't think it should stop me.  I'm just saying that the blanket statement of "all warriors suck" isn't true on Stormreaver where I play.  I don't rememeber hearing any of the other warriors in my guild complain about the class more than the casual nitpick here and there.  Just about all of them were in the closed beta too.  They seem to be doing okay, as far as I can tell.  Then again that's just one realm...I have no clue how things go down on the realms you people play on.

Glycerine
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« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2004, 10:24:36 PM »

I don't even know why I bother replying to you, Glycerine.  Not only do you post some utterly moronic points, (ie, every Warrior I've come in contact with was a newb, all the good Warriors are on the Stormreaver server, if you want a place where Warriors don't suck, change servers), you have the gall to personally insult me for merely sharing my experience with the game and the horribly broken Warrior class.

I'm happy to argue why Warriors are broken, using objective, circumstantual, and personal experience, til I'm blue in the face, but I never made this personal, and really, you shouldn't have either.

And stop posting your handle at the end of every post.  Good god that's obnoxious.  Your name is already to the left of what you wrote.  You don't have to write it again.
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« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2004, 10:33:48 PM »

Hold on I need to get my popcorn...

Alright... and... go!
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2004, 02:34:48 AM »

Quote from: "Glycerine"
I'm also not trying to say anyone "sucks", that was supposed to be a wise-crack.    Maybe it was in poor taste but that never stops Ebonstone so I didn't think it should stop me.

Let's try to keep personal opinions about users out of this and let's not compare another user to ourselves.

And cool it Ebonstone...you could have just left the statement be, but you choose to escalate it.  Sometimes cooler heads just need to prevail...sometimes you have to not go to another person's level and leave it alone.

And if you have problems with things like signatures or the user themselves, take it to e-mail or PMs instead of letting it go in threads.
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2004, 05:00:07 AM »

You're right, Fox.  Sorry for the disruption.

To get the thread back on topic -- anyone have reliable strategies for killing Shamen?
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« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2004, 10:23:42 AM »

Since my Shadow line respec, Ive been doing well with using my enhanced Shadow Word: Pain, then Mind Flay.  With Blackout, sometimes I can even stun them.

Havent gotten into a 1-on-1 with a shaman, however.  

Im thinking of possibly getting Silence, which I *think* is insta-cast, and will prevent someone from casting spells for 5 seconds.  But if it isnt instacast, it would probably just be better to cast Mind Flay and hope for a stun, since that would cause damage, and retargetting is a pain in the butt anyway.
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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2005, 01:43:23 PM »

What is with the constant duel requests now in the newbie areas.  It's not unusual to get one every 5 minutes in the evenings...and some will ask multiple times after you decline them.

Oh and level 10-12 hunters should not duel level 8 rogues unless they like dying smile  Their pets can not kill me before I kill them.
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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2005, 07:26:10 PM »

When I was a level 15 priest, I was challenged to a duel by a level 10 character who was dual-wielding some bladed weapons.  I don't remember if he was a warrior or a rogue, but I do remember that he wouldn't stop whining when I used Power Word: Shield to absorb his initial attacks and then hit him with a Fear effect while my DoT spells took their toll.

I really don't see why it would be bad form for spell-casting classes to use their spells against enemies in PvP combat....

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2005, 08:42:24 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
When I was a level 15 priest, I was challenged to a duel by a level 10 character who was dual-wielding some bladed weapons.  I don't remember if he was a warrior or a rogue, but I do remember that he wouldn't stop whining when I used Power Word: Shield to absorb his initial attacks and then hit him with a Fear effect while my DoT spells took their toll.

I really don't see why it would be bad form for spell-casting classes to use their spells against enemies in PvP combat....

-Autistic Angel


I expect it and it's not bad form.  That type of whining is as bad as hunters complaining about me stunning them and backstabbing them with my rogue because they couldn't use their bows against me.  I mean duh...it's my class.  What do you expect.  Anyway if he was lvl 10 and had duel wield then he was a rogue.  Probably thought he could kick ass out of anyone or anything and probably hadn't even upgraded his knives yet.
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« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2005, 10:39:37 PM »

I hate how people (usually on the WoW forums) cry for nerfs rather than being intelligent enough to get "resist shadow" gear or buffs.  I get attacked by rogues or warriors (or pets) all the time, and frankly the only thing which gives me a chance is hitting fear.  If they nerf that, they may as well say priests arent allowed to PvP.

BTW, one of the main reasons Dwarven Priests rule, IMO, is the "Fear Ward" spell.  I wish, just for convenience, that it would last longer than 10 minutes, but I can understand why they did it just the way they did.
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