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Author Topic: WoW: Casual Player = waste of time in PvP?  (Read 4470 times)
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Destructor
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« on: April 26, 2005, 08:40:37 PM »

Normally I'm not so negative about World of Warcraft, but this just in from Blizzard themselves:

If you're a casual player that didn't particapate 24/7 in last week's attempt to gain gank (er, honor) points, you'll get absolutely no record of your accomplishments AT ALL.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=2820898&P=1
Quote
The PvP Honor system is on a roving scale. Below a certain minimal performance, your kills and contribution points are not calculated. The reason is that because the whole point tally is based on the performance of everyone in your faction, if there is no minimum cut off, the scale would greatly skew downward, thus, ths cut off was implemented.


IE: If you're a solo player who only got a few kills, or you ganked with all the others at Tarren Mill for only a few hours, you were outright SCREWED out of the caculation for your 'honor level'.

If this doesn't kill the hordes of people rushing out to kill each other, I don't know what will.

And before you ask: Why does this piss me off? I had fun PvPing for a few hours over the course of last week. I knew I wasn't going to become 'uber' in my ranking, but I at least expected my time to be worth something. Apparently I was just wasting my time.

Now, when I hear that some Alliance territory is under attack, I simply won't go to defend it. Why? There's simply no point anymore.
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2005, 09:12:21 PM »

The PvP Honor system is the most screwed up thing Blizz has done and that's saying something.  It's one of the reasons I "gave" my account away (though my time was worth a pretty penny, wink wink).  If you don't stay there and gank for 4 hours a day, you have no shot of a decent ranking.  

With so many kids playing and summer vacation coming up, do you think a casual "working man" stands a chance in hell of a decent ranking against the overwhelming number of teenagers and college kids who will do nothing but play for 4-8 hours per day since they're home for the summer?  Hell no.  It's a virtual lock that by July everyone in the top 50% of the "honor system" will be unemployed or a student.  

WoW - a great casual game for 59 levels becomes perhaps THE most hardcore MMORPG at level 60.
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2005, 09:58:40 PM »

All my characters are lvl 42 and under and Ive not bothered with pvp.
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2005, 10:36:07 PM »

The problem as I see it is that the game requires larger and larger time commitments to "see progress".  The early stages are great for a casual gamer, you can get a lot of stuff done very quickly.  I could get some exp, craft, travel, etc.  But that's not really the case at level 36.  I can't craft because I don't have any of the 60 parts I need to get.  I can't really solo mobs unless I have a group... or when I do solo combat takes a while and so my exp/time ratio is really low.  In the heyday, it was like "Oh I have an hour to spare... on to WoW I go".  Now it's more like, "What's the point?  Can't get anything worthwhile done in an hour.  Might as well surf for Pr0n."  And frankly, if a MMORPG can't beat pr0n...

I haven't hit the infamous "wall" yet, but I know it's coming.  I can even see it in the distance.  The PvP rewards are 100% unattainable for me.  It's just not going to happen.  The solo-ability factor is starting to stink, and I just don't want to wallow as a low level anymore.  So why keep going to hit the wall when I can just stop before I'm bitter?
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2005, 11:39:06 PM »

It's weird to me that the end game in WoW (both pve and pvp) is geared towards rewarding almost exclusively the player that can commit hours and hours at a time, when most of the game (into the mid 50s+) can be enjoyed by casual players.  I imagine there's a lot of people that don't have the time to do the same 3-4 hour raid every night hoping for the off chance that they'll get the class item drop that they wanted.  I personally don't think grinding through 20+ three hour raid runs sounds even remotely fun, just to get better equipped so you can go to the real 40 man raids...and do them over and over again.  It just seems like a really weird break in the game concept.
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2005, 11:28:06 AM »

Quote from: "SuperHiro"
The problem as I see it is that the game requires larger and larger time commitments to "see progress".  The early stages are great for a casual gamer, you can get a lot of stuff done very quickly.  I could get some exp, craft, travel, etc.  But that's not really the case at level 36.  I can't craft because I don't have any of the 60 parts I need to get.  I can't really solo mobs unless I have a group... or when I do solo combat takes a while and so my exp/time ratio is really low.  In the heyday, it was like "Oh I have an hour to spare... on to WoW I go".  Now it's more like, "What's the point?  Can't get anything worthwhile done in an hour.  Might as well surf for Pr0n."  And frankly, if a MMORPG can't beat pr0n...

I haven't hit the infamous "wall" yet, but I know it's coming.  I can even see it in the distance.  The PvP rewards are 100% unattainable for me.  It's just not going to happen.  The solo-ability factor is starting to stink, and I just don't want to wallow as a low level anymore.  So why keep going to hit the wall when I can just stop before I'm bitter?


Not sure where/what you are fighting, but you should have no problem soloing creatures and doing "regular" quests all the way from to 60th. The experience required to level is not on a steep exponential curve like other MMOL games, it never takes that much more quests to level than it did the previous level, all the way up to 60th.
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2005, 01:33:15 PM »

Quote from: "Roguetad"
It's weird to me that the end game in WoW (both pve and pvp) is geared towards rewarding almost exclusively the player that can commit hours and hours at a time, when most of the game (into the mid 50s+) can be enjoyed by casual players.

In my experience, the entire game can be soloed. You'll just be grinding quite a bit outside instances. And you'll never, ever, get any of the 'really good' stuff.

That's what makes this game so much different than other MMO's - soloability.

Unfortunately, come 60, the game becomes an utter grind fest, filled with constant raids and zerg mobs just to advance your character anywhere. Goes from the most casual game to the most hardcore raiding game EVER in the course of a single level.
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2005, 01:53:05 PM »

The PvP ranking system is just one of those things that is going to reward the hardcore...it's the nature of the beast.

However, from what I understand it is possible to get into the lower ranks without spending 30 hours a week PvPing.  It may take up most of a casual player's time, but it is possible, particularly on the Horde side since there is less competition.

I'm not sure why anyone would expect to be rewarded for a handful of PvP kills though.  I got my first honorable kill last night...should I be given an uber rank for that when there are people with hundreds of kills a night?

Oh, and let's stop throwing around the term ganking when it comes to the honor system.  Ganking is not rewarded here (it's not really discouraged either), only fighting folks with a few levels of you will net you any contribution points.
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2005, 02:01:05 PM »

Quote from: "Gedd"
The PvP ranking system is just one of those things that is going to reward the hardcore...it's the nature of the beast.

However, from what I understand it is possible to get into the lower ranks without spending 30 hours a week PvPing.  It may take up most of a casual player's time, but it is possible, particularly on the Horde side since there is less competition.

I'm not sure why anyone would expect to be rewarded for a handful of PvP kills though.  I got my first honorable kill last night...should I be given an uber rank for that when there are people with hundreds of kills a night?

Oh, and let's stop throwing around the term ganking when it comes to the honor system.  Ganking is not rewarded here (it's not really discouraged either), only fighting folks with a few levels of you will net you any contribution points.


I think ganking is a very applicable, especially on PvE servers.

I'll give you an example. I'm running in Southshore with my level 34 warrior.  I come across a level 36 Tauren warrior. Normally, we'd stop, flag, fight. So we do.  He flags.  I flag.  We fight.  He wins a close, well-played battle.  So I res close to him and bow.  He bows back.  I heal and we start to square off again.

This is an honorable battle.  But wait, stop the presses!!!  There's 4 other Alliance characters who think they instantly have to jump into the fight. I'm typing in "back off" and "don't fight him" and "STOP!!!" and I'm being totally ignored by a level 45-60 gank patrol.  All they wanted was more "honor".  I felt so bad for the Tauren.  I literally stopped fighting him when they jumped in.  When they killed him I /mourned my opponent.  If I could have helped him kill the Alliance players I would have.

There's no honor there. It's a horrible system.
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2005, 03:39:12 PM »

IMO, I think the Honor system should only apply to Battleground encounters, where it's (supposedly) going to be a 'fair fight' both in terms of number of foes / teammates and levels.

The Honor system outside of the Battlegrounds needs to be 100% abolished.  It's just a fucking mess.
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2005, 03:57:34 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
IMO, I think the Honor system should only apply to Battleground encounters, where it's (supposedly) going to be a 'fair fight' both in terms of number of foes / teammates and levels.

The Honor system outside of the Battlegrounds needs to be 100% abolished.  It's just a fucking mess.


We found something to agree on...
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2005, 04:37:08 PM »

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All they wanted was more "honor".


Except they didn't get more honor.  You can't gank and get honor (remember the level requirement?).  All they got was a dishonorable kill which does nothing one way or the other.  When you flag for PvP you have to expect stuff like this can happen.  If you don't like it, either find a nice secluded spot, or engage entirely in PvE.

The honor system does need some tweaking, but as someone succinctly put it: with PvP you can't have 1 first place and 99 second places.  Someone ends up as the loser.
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2005, 04:52:33 PM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
Unfortunately, come 60, the game becomes an utter grind fest, filled with constant raids and zerg mobs just to advance your character anywhere. Goes from the most casual game to the most hardcore raiding game EVER in the course of a single level.


Compared to what other MMOL games? Based on my experience, WoW has the least "hardcore" raiding of any MMOL game out there today. If I want to "raid" someplace with my 60ths I can pick one of the following:

1) 5-man easy/moderate = BRD, some of LBRS, portions of Dire Maul
2) 5-man difficult = some of LBRS, portions of Dire Maul, Scholomance, Stratholme
3) 10-man easy= Scholomance, Stratholme
4) 10-man difficult = UBRS
5) 15-man moderate = UBRS
6) 40-man moderate = Molten Core front bosses, Kazzak (if up), Azureogth (if up)
7) 40-man difficult = Molten Core deep.  

These options range from a 1-2 hour time commitment to 4-5.

There are always groups doing the first 5 options I listed with various goals that have different time commitments, like doing a 5-man Baron run in Stratholme, or hitting the ogre side of Dire Maul, etc.

I just am kind of clueless as to what people like you really want. It seems you want to be drowned in endless content so that every time you log on you are instantly put in a group that is going to raid an dungeon that requires the exact amount of time you have to play that session. I just don't get where all the unrealistic expectations of end-game MMOL content is coming from.
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2005, 05:27:05 PM »

Well, WoW raiding definitely isn't the 'most hardcore raiding game EVER' at any level -- I would give that title to Everquest, which basically coined the term 'raid' in an MMORPG context.

I think Destructor's point, Toe, is that WoW doesn't flow very smoothly into the raid game.  It very abruptly changes from a solo-friendly game into a group-required game.
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2005, 05:28:50 PM »

Quote from: "Scuba-V"
Quote
All they wanted was more "honor".


Except they didn't get more honor.  You can't gank and get honor (remember the level requirement?).  All they got was a dishonorable kill which does nothing one way or the other.  When you flag for PvP you have to expect stuff like this can happen.  If you don't like it, either find a nice secluded spot, or engage entirely in PvE.

The honor system does need some tweaking, but as someone succinctly put it: with PvP you can't have 1 first place and 99 second places.  Someone ends up as the loser.


Nice of you to ignore the entire story and comment only on one line.  

BTW, one of them probably got some honor because they were level 45.

My point is that there's roving groups of idiots all over the place ganking anything flagged.  They don't care about level.  They don't care if you're already fighting.  It's the "if it moves, we kill it" mentality in the land of WoW.  And it flat-out sucks.

I couldn't even have an "honorable" battle because of the interference of my own side!  How screwed up is that?  Even Blizz has realized how bad the system is since they're going to put  in penalties for dishonor.  But ultimately, they should only calculate honor on the Battlegrounds and leave the normal areas alone.
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2005, 05:34:51 PM »

Quote from: "Blackadar"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
IMO, I think the Honor system should only apply to Battleground encounters, where it's (supposedly) going to be a 'fair fight' both in terms of number of foes / teammates and levels.

The Honor system outside of the Battlegrounds needs to be 100% abolished.  It's just a fucking mess.


We found something to agree on...
If the Honor System is going to work and be fun, it's got to be in a goal-based environment, like the Battlegrounds.  Honor should be gained from things other than killing opponents -- if you mined resources or whatever for your team, killed mobs so your peons could work, or damaged enemy buildings, you should get Honor too.

If you don't attach Honor to a specific goal, Honor becomes the goal, and the game devolves into a gankfest, since that's what is most quickly rewarded.
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2005, 05:40:55 PM »

The PvP system blows.

1) It caters to DPS classes.  Blizzard can say what they want, but the top ranks are going to be Rogue/Hunter/Mage heavy.

2) At least the enlisted ranks should be STATIC.  Meaning you need X points to get them and once you have them you cant ever lose your rank.  This allows casual players, and latecomers, some chance at PvP gains.

3) Rank decay.  Ugh.  But ok, I can see a little at the highest ranks.  I guess.  I really dont see why it is necessary (except to become a time sink, as they have a weak as hell high level game otherwise) but for the sake of argument I will go along with it here.  Losing the ability to wear your gear though?  HORRIBLE.

4) Population imbalance.  Nearly all servers are Alliance heavy.  This is a fact.  Data is here www.warcraftrealms.com and if you dont trust that data you can collect your own and marvel at how well the data sets will match up.  Now since the rankings ARE subjective, the realms are equal in that regard.  But in practice, it makes PvP for the Horde suck balls.  I cant say for PvP servers, but on our PvE server Suramar TM is under constant siege.  Because they outnumber us about 2 to 1 overall and closer to 3 to 1 50+, the Alliance can literally setup shop in the center of town and kill anything that moves.  This is a problem.

Honor only from Battlegrounds is a good idea and something that might have to happen to counter the massive Alliance numbers advantage.  Still, I dont see Battlegrounds as a panacea to their population problems.  They should have spent a lot more time in beta looking into why the Alliance was so much more popular.  Instead they did...NOTHING!  LOL Nothing!  Nothing at all to make the Horde more appealing to players.  Unbelievable.

Blizzard is turning out to be a very poor steward to a very good game.  About half way through the beta you could tell their focus changed from making the best game they could to making the most money they could, in the least amount of time.

olaf
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2005, 06:18:50 PM »

Quote from: "olaf"
Honor only from Battlegrounds is a good idea and something that might have to happen to counter the massive Alliance numbers advantage.  Still, I dont see Battlegrounds as a panacea to their population problems.

It won't solve the population problems but it will in part stem them.

If Blizzard was smart, they'd have Battleground servers that any realm could reach.  On a by-server basis, the Alliance:Horde ratio fucking sucks for the Horde, (4+:1 in some cases) but in the overall it comes close to averaging out (1.2:1).

At this point, there is no way Blizzard can solve the population problem.  It's FUBAR.  Only the most drastic of solutions would work, (forced relocation, server caps, etc), and that'll never happen.  

The Alliance will continue to be dominant unless Blizzard is smart and gives the Horde a metric ton of goodies in the expansion while simultaneously snubbing the Alliance (I'm thinking, Horde gets Blood Elves as a playable race, Alliance gets another ugly short race; Horde gets Death Knights as a playable class, Alliance gets something shitty, like a Tinkerer or something).

But again, that requires Blizzard to do something smart.  Not going to happen.

Quote
They should have spent a lot more time in beta looking into why the Alliance was so much more popular.  Instead they did...NOTHING!  LOL Nothing!  Nothing at all to make the Horde more appealing to players.  Unbelievable.


There is no reason to play Horde unless you want to play a Shaman or be an (cough, unstoppable) Undead Rogue.  The Horde areas suck, their quests suck, they're outnumbered, their racial abilities suck (except for WotF), their towns suck, etc etc etc.

Quote
About half way through the beta you could tell their focus changed from making the best game they could to making the most money they could, in the least amount of time.

olaf


Yeup.  Coincidentally, they finished polishing the Alliance side about that time too.
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« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2005, 06:20:54 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Well, WoW raiding definitely isn't the 'most hardcore raiding game EVER' at any level -- I would give that title to Everquest, which basically coined the term 'raid' in an MMORPG context.

I think Destructor's point, Toe, is that WoW doesn't flow very smoothly into the raid game.  It very abruptly changes from a solo-friendly game into a group-required game.


I am still confused about what he (and whoever else is put off by this) expected for end-game content? Were they expecting something new to the MMOL game genre? Solo epic instance raids maybe? Yeah, I wish WoW's end game was not similar to every other MMOL games, but I really was not expecting much of anything else.

I think Blizzard did a good job at "trying" to get you to do some 5-man instance raids prior to 60th without "forcing" you to with things like Bind-on-pickup treasure, great quest rewards for finishing instance quests, increased experience from instance adventuring, etc.

Eventually, you are going to run out of content. Whether you are just a soloer, have a dedicated group, or a massive guild, you are going to eventually hit the content wall for that playstyle. With WoW, unfortunately, thanks to their no-grinding-required leveling process, that comes sooner rather than later (unlike most MMOL games).
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« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2005, 07:20:38 PM »

Quote from: "Toe"
I just don't get where all the unrealistic expectations of end-game MMOL content is coming from.


Prolly from the first 59 lvls in the game.
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2005, 08:59:21 PM »

Man some people just don't actually read about stuff on this board. You can get good points(your rank is your contribution points not just how many HK's you get.). I have seen people who had 3 times the HK's of me but not that much more in points because they just fight in places like Tarren Mill. If your in some mass of 30 players and you kill even 50 others players your gonna have allot of HK's but not that many points. Killing another faction by yourself is very much worth it for the honor system.
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2005, 10:13:53 PM »

Quote
2) At least the enlisted ranks should be STATIC. Meaning you need X points to get them and once you have them you cant ever lose your rank. This allows casual players, and latecomers, some chance at PvP gains.


Ah, the first constructive criticism of the thread.  This makes very good sense to me.  Anyone play Gunbound?  The lower ranks had an unchanging point requirement while the higher ranks were percentage based.  The lower level rewards for PvP aren't earthshattering so they won't unbalance anything but they will add a sense of accomplishment for casual PvPers.  Bravo olaf!
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2005, 11:57:35 PM »

And yeah the raid game does not make sense given the rest of the game.  Its nothing like it in fact.

At 60 you have:

5 man content:
LBRS/Scholo/Strat/DM

Now you CAN raid the above places, but they were all clearly designed as 5 man stuff.

10-15 man content:
UBRS

The first raid in the game.  Really not much different than the 5 man stuff though.  You dont need healing roations, voice chat or insane UI mods that do things like autocast dispels over and over.

40 man content:
MC/Onyxia/Kazzak/Azuregos

Surprise!  Forget all you learned up until now because these encounters are entirely different beasts.  You need rigorous organization and a good leader to win here.  You also need some unforgiving class mixes and TONS of healers.

Where is the 20 man stuff?  What happened to it?  Why is the next instance they are pushing out the door 40 man?  No idea.

olaf
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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2005, 12:21:06 AM »

The honor system is not as casual unfriendly as many of you think.  Some in our guild pvped for maybe 2 hours all week and were rank 2.  I pvped for a total of about 14 hours on the week and got rank 4.  Not a big difference, and I don't consider 14 hours a week hardcore.
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2005, 12:36:34 AM »

Quote from: "Gedd"
Oh, and let's stop throwing around the term ganking when it comes to the honor system.  Ganking is not rewarded here (it's not really discouraged either), only fighting folks with a few levels of you will net you any contribution points.

Unfortunately, when you're level 60, level 48s and up are considered 'green' to you, which means they net you honor points.

And does the 48 have a chance in hell of winning a 1 on 1 fight? No.

And dishonorable kills of players far lower level (gray) than you aren't currently in the game. The only way to get a DK is to kill a civilian. And currently there's no penality even if you get a DK, so...

Quote from: "Lord Ebonstone"
I think Destructor's point, Toe, is that WoW doesn't flow very smoothly into the raid game. It very abruptly changes from a solo-friendly game into a group-required game.

And that's my point exactly.
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2005, 12:51:11 AM »

Anyone wanting to get ahead in the pvp system will not roam lvl 50 areas to gank 48-52s.  That is just much too slow to get HK and contribution.  Any serious pvper will just go to TM to get Hks at about 10 times the speed.  I think the danger 49s are facing is exaggerated as my 49 shaman has no problem questing or grinding so far.
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2005, 01:39:42 AM »

Quote from: "olaf"
And yeah the raid game does not make sense given the rest of the game.  Its nothing like it in fact.

At 60 you have:

5 man content:
LBRS/Scholo/Strat/DM

Now you CAN raid the above places, but they were all clearly designed as 5 man stuff.

10-15 man content:
UBRS

The first raid in the game.  Really not much different than the 5 man stuff though.  You dont need healing roations, voice chat or insane UI mods that do things like autocast dispels over and over.

40 man content:
MC/Onyxia/Kazzak/Azuregos

Surprise!  Forget all you learned up until now because these encounters are entirely different beasts.  You need rigorous organization and a good leader to win here.  You also need some unforgiving class mixes and TONS of healers.

Where is the 20 man stuff?  What happened to it?  Why is the next instance they are pushing out the door 40 man?  No idea.


I guess I do not understand where you get this expectation that there should be a certain progression, in terms of numbers required, of raid content. You act like there is some type of standard MMOL raid template that Blizzard was suppose to be following.

I would not be suprised if this time next year folks were doing UBRS with 1 group, Onyxia with 20 people, MC with 30, etc.
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2005, 02:47:31 AM »

Quote from: "Toe"
I guess I do not understand where you get this expectation that there should be a certain progression, in terms of numbers required, of raid content. You act like there is some type of standard MMOL raid template that Blizzard was suppose to be following.


Of course there isn't, but one would hope since Blizz removed (most) of the 'grind' from the pre-raid game, they'd find a way to streamline the raid game too.

Well, they haven't yet.

I don't think it's fair to knock the game for that, but it's an area that could be improved upon.  Giving players who have just come off a very easy, very friendly level curve an EQ1-style raid is just asking for frustration and disaster.

From what I've read about Onyxia/Molten Core, it's not a very difficult raid in terms of other MMORPGs.  It sounds about as hard as that EQ1 Velious zone, the Frost Giant castle (I forgot the name).  And that raid is trivial compared to what EQ1 has in it now (Planar Raids = mind-blowingly amazing).
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2005, 11:18:38 AM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Toe"
I guess I do not understand where you get this expectation that there should be a certain progression, in terms of numbers required, of raid content. You act like there is some type of standard MMOL raid template that Blizzard was suppose to be following.


Of course there isn't, but one would hope since Blizz removed (most) of the 'grind' from the pre-raid game, they'd find a way to streamline the raid game too.

Well, they haven't yet.


Ok, what do you mean by "streamline the raid game too"? Make it easier? I guess they don't want to do that due to the massive amount of raid content they would need to add in order to keep players busy.

Quote
I don't think it's fair to knock the game for that, but it's an area that could be improved upon.  Giving players who have just come off a very easy, very friendly level curve an EQ1-style raid is just asking for frustration and disaster.


I do agree that it could be improved upon and I think it has been somewhat already and will continue to be as time progresses. End-game/high level raid content has traditionally been one of the last things to get addressed. Blizzard probably should have realized that their forgiving leveling curve meant they needed to focus more resources on it sooner than they have.

In EQ1, there was no "introduction" to dragon or plane raids. At least in WoW you have 5-man instances that test your skills more than non-instances.

Quote
From what I've read about Onyxia/Molten Core, it's not a very difficult raid in terms of other MMORPGs.  It sounds about as hard as that EQ1 Velious zone, the Frost Giant castle (I forgot the name).  And that raid is trivial compared to what EQ1 has in it now (Planar Raids = mind-blowingly amazing).


Its not that difficult, atleast as far as I have been (Magmadar). Admittedly though, what is in the game now, in terms of raid content, is supposedly the "easy" raids, with the more difficult ones to follow. [/quote]
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2005, 06:26:06 PM »

Quote from: "Toe"
In EQ1, there was no "introduction" to dragon or plane raids.
Sure there was -- all the other, older, easier raids...
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2005, 01:48:38 AM »

Yeah we should judge WoW based on a 6 year old MMO.  EQ didnt do it, so why should WoW?  Come on.  They should have learned from EQ's mistakes, not repeated them.

olaf
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2005, 02:05:27 AM »

I've learned you just can't argue with Blizzard fanboys.  The excuses for the poor level 60 content from fanboys has been pretty much this:

First, the excuse was "if you didn't level so fast and skip all the other content, this wouldn't be a problem".  Given the insanely short leveling time, that excuse was valid for, oh, about 30 days.  I saw that posted for literally months.  Inevitably, it was posted by level 24 characters who didn't have a friggin' clue about the endgame in the first place.

Then, it was "start an alt character and do the horde quests".  As if going through levels 1-59 AGAIN somehow legitimized the poor endgame content.

Then, there was so many level 60s, even the most idiotic Blizz fanboy had to stop posting the "rushing" excuse.  So, the next excuse was, "have you tried ALL the endgame content?  If you haven't defeated Onyxia, don't complain".  As if defeating Onyxia is substantially different than defeating any number of the 40-man raid bosses.  Of course, they missed the point that many of us in small guilds couldn't even ATTEMPT much of the endgame content.

Then the excuse de jour was "it's the same type of content as other MMORPGs".  Of course, Blizzard said WoW was different than other MMORPGs and for the first 59 levels the game is substantially different.  Of course, you'd think that Blizzard could have actually learned something from the last 8-10 years of MMORPGs and designed something better.

Now it's "give Blizzard time".  Of course, they've had 6 months and substantial features that are promised in the manual (Battlegrounds) aren't even out yet.  Heck, I think the BGs were promised on the game box!  But give them time!  They'll make it right!  Just keep paying them!

Contrary to popular belief, I enjoyed WoW.  I just really think that it's a shame that the endgame to a great MMORPG is so limited, poorly-designed and substantially out of character with the rest of the game.
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2005, 06:10:09 AM »

About the rushing comment, that you can get to 60 in 30 days.

Ehm, no.

I'v been playing for 2,5 months now, and I'm level 37. A lot of people in my guild are about as fast as me, often slower in levelling.

So, just FYI, I guess I'm a casual player, you're not, and this is a MMORPG that was build for me :p
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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2005, 10:01:11 AM »

Quote
As if defeating Onyxia is substantially different than defeating any number of the 40-man raid bosses. Of course, they missed the point that many of us in small guilds couldn't even ATTEMPT much of the endgame content.


Why do you need a large guild to "even ATTEMPT much of the endgame content"?    
:?:  Im confused...

FYI, Ive been L60 for a while, and I still have tons of stuff left to do.
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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2005, 11:06:51 AM »

Quote from: "The Rocketman"
About the rushing comment, that you can get to 60 in 30 days.

Ehm, no.

I'v been playing for 2,5 months now, and I'm level 37. A lot of people in my guild are about as fast as me, often slower in levelling.

So, just FYI, I guess I'm a casual player, you're not, and this is a MMORPG that was build for me :p


That excuse was *valid* for about 30 days.  Not that it takes 30 days to get to 60.  Big difference.

And I got to level 60 in under 10 days played.  So it is a very short leveling cycle.  

Finally, don't try to dictate who's a casual player and who is not.  I had the game since November and only dumped it recently - that's 5 months.  So if you've only had the game for 2.5 months, then la-de-da.   Your comment is just about as valid as if I said "I guess I'm a better player and you suck, that's how I leveled faster".  I'm not trying to be brutal here, but if you're only level 37, you wouldn't understand anything about the endgame anyway.


Quote from: "Unbreakable"
Why do you need a large guild to "even ATTEMPT much of the endgame content"?
Question Im confused...

FYI, Ive been L60 for a while, and I still have tons of stuff left to do.


Maybe it's different on different servers, but my old server became very regimented.  It became difficult for peeps to find groups for raid content if they weren't in a large guild.  Since much of the content IS raid content, that created major problems.  I know of many people who quit over this.  I was lucky to be in one of the larger guilds and therefore got to see Onyxia, MC and the like.  But others were literally standing in IF for hours trying to get on a group.  Unless you are a warrior, mage or priest, it can be very difficult to get on a non-guild, endgame raid/group.
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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2005, 11:46:24 AM »

Quote from: "olaf"
Yeah we should judge WoW based on a 6 year old MMO.  EQ didnt do it, so why should WoW?  Come on.  They should have learned from EQ's mistakes, not repeated them.

olaf


Yeah, I guess Blizzard should have kept the game in devlopment for a few more years to create all the raid content other games have :roll: Or better yet, they should have made the leveling curve much steeper like other games so folks would only be around 50th level now, grinding exps off mobs in Felwood. That would buy them more time to work on raid content.  :roll:
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2005, 12:00:51 AM »

They should have prioritized their development efforts better, yeah.

And definitely the game was released too soon and the Horde, PvP/Battlegrounds and the high end game (raids and hero classes) suffered the most because of this.

olaf
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2005, 06:23:11 AM »

Quote from: "Blackadar"
Maybe it's different on different servers, but my old server became very regimented.  It became difficult for peeps to find groups for raid content if they weren't in a large guild.  Since much of the content IS raid content, that created major problems.  I know of many people who quit over this.  I was lucky to be in one of the larger guilds and therefore got to see Onyxia, MC and the like.  But others were literally standing in IF for hours trying to get on a group.  Unless you are a warrior, mage or priest, it can be very difficult to get on a non-guild, endgame raid/group.


Was is more someone spamming the channel in IF looking to go to MC, or was it someone saying "I have the key to Onxyia's lair, so anyone looking to go..."?

Because getting the key is kind of annoying, but its definitely not something that someone needs a large guild for.  And I know on my server, unguilded 60s make up a sizable part of the community.
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