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Author Topic: WoW 1.4.0 patch notes  (Read 6804 times)
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madpeon
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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2005, 05:13:03 PM »

Quote from: "Falator"
Quote from: "madpeon"
Note: I have alot of high end equipment, but this is just a counterpoint to guys saying rogues > all.

As an Arms/Fury warrior (standard 31/20) with a Reaper, and all the +crit gear plate I can find, I absolutely destroy rogues. Overpower crits for 1k+, MS crits for 1.2k. They can't vanish (deep wounds bleeding), they can't run (hamstring/piercing howl > sprint), and they can't damage you faster than you damage them. You're always enraged, +40% melee damage, since their crit rate is so high.

Deep wounds, rend, hamstring, improved overpower, piercing howl (spam this to knock them out of stealth), disarm, and the always amazing mortal strike are all rogue killing tools.

I've taken full Shadowcraft rogues, with a Felstriker offhand Rend mainhand with 60% or more hps left.

The old rock paper scissors mentality is definately here: warriors > rogues > casters > warriors. Casters have so many tools available to keep warriors at range, while rogues can stealth in and stunlock/kill them before they can use these tools. Its fairly balanced, but you have to look at the whole picture. Group PvP is where the balance lies, not in dueling or 1 on 1 fights. A holy priest is laughed at in a 1on1 fight, but pair him with a 31/20 warrior in a group, and I guarantee you people will think twice about jumping him.


rock paper scissors my ass.

A rogue only stands a CHANCE against a decent mage if they have sprint up, otherwise forget it. shadow Priests just hands down destroy rogues unless you are fotm undead. Good druids are also VERY hard to kill (although this may change with the root changes). Warlocks aren't too bad, unless they have a succubus and then you will be hard pressed to kill them (unless you are fotm undead of course).

So really, what magic using class do rogues cancel out like a warrior does a rogue? I am not complaining about warriors since i am also making a war alt myself and think they should have the advantage against rogues, i just find people saying rogues destroy casters funny. Yeah, we kill the newbie mages who don't even blink (this annoys me to no end as it breaks my cheap shot, sprint schedule) and warlocks who decide not to have succubus up (why warlocks, why?), but that is about all.


Outside of dueling situations, which I already stated are pointless, rogues do and will tear it up.

Their main function is to cause chaos behind enemy lines. Nothing quite like seeing a groups priest drop in 5 seconds to two rogues. Unfortunately, ambush/bs builds are key for stuff like this, none of that combat crap I've been seeing from most rogues lately.

I still hold that rogues > casters in a real world situation. Having the element of suprise on a class you can kill in under 10 seconds is an amazing bonus.
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Fuzzballx
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2005, 06:44:08 PM »

Quote from: "madpeon"

Outside of dueling situations, which I already stated are pointless, rogues do and will tear it up.

Their main function is to cause chaos behind enemy lines. Nothing quite like seeing a groups priest drop in 5 seconds to two rogues. Unfortunately, ambush/bs builds are key for stuff like this, none of that combat crap I've been seeing from most rogues lately.

I still hold that rogues > casters in a real world situation. Having the element of suprise on a class you can kill in under 10 seconds is an amazing bonus.


I think you'll see a lot more rogues respec once the battle grounds are live, MP.  Combat spec is definitely nice for PvE and high level instancing though.  The damage mitigation, precision, disarm and flurry are skills that are excellent for helping rogues stay alive and do their job in instances more so than say sub/ass skills.  I know i took the ambush SS route for grinding up my levels.  When i hit 59 i switched to combat/ass in order to better survive instances and still have the best possible damage output for pve.  When battle gounds come out i'll move back to sub/ass so I can get behind the lines and kill cloth users better than a combat rogue.  Combat is nice for 1 on 1 non battlegrounds pvp too.  It helps you fight classes like warriors which a sub ass rogue just can't really do.  parry and disarm are very helpful for that.  I think thats why you see combat rogues right now, MP.  They're focusing on high level instances a lot and combat is good for that.

In a a real worl situation, assuming rogue maintains surprise through opening attack, i agree, rogues tear it up=)  Rogue is one class that pretty much works 100% as intended with the exception of a few very minor bugs.  They do exactly what they were designed to do and do it well and if they're caught before the act....you end up with a really fantastic fight on your hands..perfection IMHO.

I also agree with you that duels are pointless.  The game's designed for group balance and many classes rely on surprise distance vs melee and it just doesn't come realistically in a duel.

And rock paper scissors may be a bit too simple... Paper....scissors...oragami...that might work :lol:
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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2005, 06:45:47 PM »

Quote from: "madpeon"
Outside of dueling situations, which I already stated are pointless, rogues do and will tear it up.

Their main function is to cause chaos behind enemy lines. Nothing quite like seeing a groups priest drop in 5 seconds to two rogues. Unfortunately, ambush/bs builds are key for stuff like this, none of that combat crap I've been seeing from most rogues lately.

I still hold that rogues > casters in a real world situation. Having the element of suprise on a class you can kill in under 10 seconds is an amazing bonus.


Absolutely. I'm running a rogue with a full assassin tree (less poison skills) and the rest in combat to reduce energy cost.

If I get my cheapshot off, Inside 5sec I have a 5/5 combo, and unleash Expose armor for ~1900 armor loss on target (I'm only 46). No damage reduction for target. Build combo, up again (SS, gouge/BS) and then a cold blood evisc and we're talking some major hurt. On casters though, I don't need to waste it on expose; I can expose on 3 and speed things up so I can use to interrupt casting. Throw a poison or two in the mix and it happens faster.

Rogues kick ass at combat; problem with them is... 1 target. They're awesome in a party, great for pulling (as rogue types *SHOULD* be more conscious of threat area etc.). I feel completely helpless when the party gets ganked though; switching targets means losing combo points=just another mid-dps dealer.

That being said, the current balance is much more even than before, and rogues aren't the "ultimate" class. (at least, not on the alliance side).
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Fuzzballx
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« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2005, 06:49:34 PM »

Being an undead rogue is definitely a huge advantage over night elf or gnome.  Most useful racial in my opinion.  Makes alliance warlocks and priests lives a lot harder than horde ones.
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Koz
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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2005, 07:51:44 PM »

I don't think the advantage is "huge". The undead immunity only lasts 20 secs and the gnome break snare ability is incredibly useful for a rogue.

I'm a human rogue, which is probably the worst racially-wise, especially for a dagger build like mine.
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Falator
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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2005, 08:01:02 PM »

Quote from: "madpeon"
Quote from: "Falator"
Quote from: "madpeon"
Note: I have alot of high end equipment, but this is just a counterpoint to guys saying rogues > all.

As an Arms/Fury warrior (standard 31/20) with a Reaper, and all the +crit gear plate I can find, I absolutely destroy rogues. Overpower crits for 1k+, MS crits for 1.2k. They can't vanish (deep wounds bleeding), they can't run (hamstring/piercing howl > sprint), and they can't damage you faster than you damage them. You're always enraged, +40% melee damage, since their crit rate is so high.

Deep wounds, rend, hamstring, improved overpower, piercing howl (spam this to knock them out of stealth), disarm, and the always amazing mortal strike are all rogue killing tools.

I've taken full Shadowcraft rogues, with a Felstriker offhand Rend mainhand with 60% or more hps left.

The old rock paper scissors mentality is definately here: warriors > rogues > casters > warriors. Casters have so many tools available to keep warriors at range, while rogues can stealth in and stunlock/kill them before they can use these tools. Its fairly balanced, but you have to look at the whole picture. Group PvP is where the balance lies, not in dueling or 1 on 1 fights. A holy priest is laughed at in a 1on1 fight, but pair him with a 31/20 warrior in a group, and I guarantee you people will think twice about jumping him.


rock paper scissors my ass.

A rogue only stands a CHANCE against a decent mage if they have sprint up, otherwise forget it. shadow Priests just hands down destroy rogues unless you are fotm undead. Good druids are also VERY hard to kill (although this may change with the root changes). Warlocks aren't too bad, unless they have a succubus and then you will be hard pressed to kill them (unless you are fotm undead of course).

So really, what magic using class do rogues cancel out like a warrior does a rogue? I am not complaining about warriors since i am also making a war alt myself and think they should have the advantage against rogues, i just find people saying rogues destroy casters funny. Yeah, we kill the newbie mages who don't even blink (this annoys me to no end as it breaks my cheap shot, sprint schedule) and warlocks who decide not to have succubus up (why warlocks, why?), but that is about all.


Outside of dueling situations, which I already stated are pointless, rogues do and will tear it up.

Their main function is to cause chaos behind enemy lines. Nothing quite like seeing a groups priest drop in 5 seconds to two rogues. Unfortunately, ambush/bs builds are key for stuff like this, none of that combat crap I've been seeing from most rogues lately.

I still hold that rogues > casters in a real world situation. Having the element of suprise on a class you can kill in under 10 seconds is an amazing bonus.


The priest's group would have to be full of morons for that to happen. Priest can just ae fear the rogues (Unless you are ud again) and then the rogues are dead since there are a ton of ways to disable the ability to stealth once revealed (rightly so of course).

Everything i have said has been talking about real pvp (ie not duels) though. Maybe it is different on pvp servers, but on my normal server, if i see Bob the undead mage pvp enabled, i know for a fact that he is either A) ready and looking for pvp, or B) a newbie. A is almost as common as B now and growing. So since Bob is ready for pvp and since he knows that rogues are common as hell (pisses me off that so many people picked rogue after i did and makes me wish i had started with a warrior instead), he will be just waiting for some poor fool to read a comment like "rogues > mages" and attack him so that he can blink out of the cheap shot and then start killed the rogue.

Yes, rogues are better in real pvp than duels, but magic users are not a walk over. If you are paying attention, you can generally kill a warlock, unless they are using a succubus, but the others ones... you better hope they stink (and a lot of the mages seem to, thank god. maybe they were diablow 2 fire wall sorcs?) or you will be lucky to run for your life.

oh and just until recently i was a a pure dagger bs/ambush rogue using barman shanker. I had been wanting to switch to ass/subt with a non dagger as i believe that char does nearly as good damage, with MUCH more utility and no positionals. My experience with my now subt/ass sword rogue show me that i was right (in my opinion at least). I use Sword of zeal with crusader on it (if you are on bronzebeard, have 2 righteous orbs and want crusader, tell Talok and i will hook you up for some token fee) and plan to switch to dal'rend set whenever i get it.

I won't say i die in pvp a lot to other classes, as i don't, but this is because of stealth. I simply don't attack warriors or priests alone and generally unless there is great need. Generally the warriors like to charge our plds/wars and that is when i strike :twisted:

oh and Koz: you are wrong. wotf is HUGE. in 20 seconds, a warlock will die from a ud rogue, no question about it. in 20 seconds, a priest will likely die from a ud rogue, something that every other rogue dreams about doing against a half decent shadow priest.

oh and fuzzballx: that group of 56 priest, 59 mage, and 60 warrior must have been afk to lose to a single rogue (or they were just terrible players).
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Fuzzballx
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« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2005, 09:37:01 PM »

Quote
oh and fuzzballx: that group of 56 priest, 59 mage, and 60 warrior must have been afk to lose to a single rogue (or they were just terrible players).


They were terrible players who attacked me, so i doubt they were afk.  That was my point and it was clearly stated in my post which actually supported your earlier posts.  Their priest died in 2 seconds literally, the mage followed quickly in about 6 seconds, then i fought the warrior about 20 seconds in a crazy run around fight until i ended up chasing him 2 minutes till sprint refreshed then slaughtered him while he was still running away from me.  They were the worst players i'd ever come across in pvp in WoW..  The warrior by himself should have nailed me to the floor.

I don't support your last post at all.  I think your just flailing now.  Step back and look. You and MP agree on an awful lot here.  Not everything is an attack against your class.

It should be obvious to everyone that the biggest imbalances are in the skill levels of the players, not in the game design.

Quote
Everything i have said has been talking about real pvp (ie not duels) though. Maybe it is different on pvp servers, but on my normal server, if i see Bob the undead mage pvp enabled, i know for a fact that he is either A) ready and looking for pvp, or B) a newbie.


I disagree.  I don't think you've experienced real pvp.  Real pvp hasn't occurred yet in WoW live and won't until battlegrounds are opened.  That's what blizzard is balancing pvp for, is battlegrounds.
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Falator
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« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2005, 10:26:08 PM »

Fuzzballx: well, fuzzball, i agree with nearly his whole post except that wow is rock/paper/scissors. Yes, some classes are better against some other classes than others, but the idea that most people have that rogues counter magic users is laughable.

People have a lot of misinformation about the rogue class (things like a mage can be killed in 2 hits by a rogue, rogues kill priests and that rogues are the best 1vs1 class) and i like to at least try to help set them straight.

Yes, you are probably right that the large alliance vs horde battles that happen whenever one side attacks a town are probably not real pvp. I must have forgoten that that can only happen when blizzard labels the area "battleground." This also means that the honor system can't be tested on the test server. Someone needs to log on to test and tell them it isn't real pvp so the players there can stop paving a path of dead bodies between southshore and tauren mill :roll: Do you think people aren't going to be expecting to be attacked in battlegrounds? Do you honestly believe the mage won't have his finger on that blink button when running around so that he can get away if attacked bya  rogue? I don't know about you, but my warrior WILL be in defence stance when running around the battlegrounds and he WILL be prepared for an ambush.

All I have said have been based on my experiences with a pure dagger bs/ambush build and a sword using subt/ass build (i did use other builds before 60 though), if that seems like flailing to you, then so be it.
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Skeld
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2005, 04:07:38 PM »

Apparently there's a trinket for making rank 2 of PvP.

The trinket act like WoTF, you can buy it from the merchant.

Dead priests everywhere.
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Calvin
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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2005, 06:32:09 PM »

Quote from: "Skeld"
Apparently there's a trinket for making rank 2 of PvP.

The trinket act like WoTF, you can buy it from the merchant.

Dead priests everywhere.


There is some discussion/debate over whether this is temporary or final-it seems so overpowering that some think it will be modified or taken out before the new patch hits.
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Falator
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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2005, 07:31:10 PM »

It isn't overpowered because it has no immunity timer, it just breaks it much the same as the gnome racial does. This also means it is nothing compared to wotf since warlocks at least (i admit that it is better against priests) can cast fear more than once in a short while.

I have also heard that the cd on the item is 5 minutes which is quite a bit longer than wotf. not to mention that an ud rogue can get both wotf and that item i believe :?

Personally, i think that ud shadow priests could use an effective counter such as alliance rogues with that trinket, but ud rogues with it are going to make the poor alliance warlocks cry.
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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2005, 08:05:01 PM »

Buy nets.
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madpeon
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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2005, 10:58:44 PM »

Re: trinkets.

Remember, these rewards were built with GROUP pvp in mind. When you run into situations like 10 v 10, being able to BREAK one CC ability isn't overpowered at all.

Break the warlocks fear? Priest will get ya then.
Break a mage nova? Druid can back them up.

Its a great addition imho, nothing more frustrating than being chain feared by lvl35 warlocks at lvl60.
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Skeld
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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2005, 12:31:04 PM »

I am... I am a troll priest  frown

The idea is that I will probably die more often now since I will lost my windows of survival. Not to mention that priests are everybody's prime target. Basically, rogues can approach me from behind the line, stunlock me and my only defense against that would be my psycho scream. And now that defense would be lost (not to mention they already make it supremely unreliable).

Coupled with rogue's new ambush backstab fix (hell, even BEFORE the fix), my 3500 health would probably last about 4 seconds?

Not to mention, not every instances that you get jumped you would be in a group versus group situation. I doubt that many people brings a friend when they are farming. Granted, I know Blizzard said that they balanced the game based on group pvp, but hell if that isn't making my life more difficult.

And for those of you who played on the alliance side, good luck  :wink: I wonder if the trinket and WoTF are on the same cool down timer?
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Falator
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« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2005, 07:21:40 PM »

Skeld: You can't be stunlocking and using ambush/backstab at the same time.

Something priests like yourself don't realize is if you aren't stunned for 1 second, we are dead. trying to "stunlock" you is the only chance we have against the god of battle, the shadow priest.

Being horde, you have NO room at all to complain about fear counters. How do you think alliance feel having to deal with 50% of horde being undead? It could be worse though, you could be alliance going up against both that trinket and wotf instead of just some half assed fear break.

oh and props to you for not jumping on the ud bandwagon Tongue

They also nerfed ambush on test so that should make you happy...
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« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2005, 09:07:08 PM »

Quote from: "Falator"
Skeld: You can't be stunlocking and using ambush/backstab at the same time.

Something priests like yourself don't realize is if you aren't stunned for 1 second, we are dead. trying to "stunlock" you is the only chance we have against the god of battle, the shadow priest.

Being horde, you have NO room at all to complain about fear counters. How do you think alliance feel having to deal with 50% of horde being undead? It could be worse though, you could be alliance going up against both that trinket and wotf instead of just some half assed fear break.

oh and props to you for not jumping on the ud bandwagon Tongue

They also nerfed ambush on test so that should make you happy...


You can stunlock with BS, at least for a little while. Open with CS, wait 3 secs, BS, then immediately gouge... wait a couple seconds, BS then KP... wait 5 secs (or just as the little twirly thing above the target's head starts to fade), then BS and gouge. At this point you can't get true stunlock since it's hard to get 5 CPs for a full KP (to regen energy) while BSing, but I use the above and it usually does enough damage to kill something squishy.

It takes a good amount of timing to pull off exactly right, and you can throw in a SS instead of a BS if you're low on energy, but I find it's pretty useful. When done on a caster, they shouldn't have time to cast anything, even an instant spell.

I should note this tactic doesn't hold stunlock in PvP very well though, since players don't automatically turn around like mobs do when you BS them (since you need to be facing to gouge).
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Skeld
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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2005, 12:39:31 PM »

Quote
Being horde, you have NO room at all to complain about fear counters. How do you think alliance feel having to deal with 50% of horde being undead? It could be worse though, you could be alliance going up against both that trinket and wotf instead of just some half assed fear break.


Hey I do feel for them. That's why I was wondering if the trinket and WoTF are on the same timer. If it isn't, well, dead alliances priest everywhere... not that I have any problem with that  :twisted:

And I do realize that stunlocking is your only chance against a priest if you jump me one on one (and when all things being equal, like I have full health mana as well as you etc etc). I started by spamming the psycho scream key and if you guys messed up, you would be send running.

The heal, shield, DoT you rogues so you can't stealth, and see if you want to stay and fight (usually not) or sprint away. Pretty standard tactic stuff.

But then again, I am not the god of battle, the shadow priest  :o  I am actually one of the few holy / disc troll priest on the server (one of the three level 60 troll priests no less), but I do sometimes regret not rolling a undead...

I don't get why people think Shadow Priest is a god of battle though. If you want to talk about 1v1 duel, a well played shaman OR a fire mage would totally destroy me. I found out about the fire mage in a hard way on the test server. Polymorph, combustion, pryoblast, counterspell, arcane missle = scary burst damage.

However, I think the shadow priests will be able to pile on damage over time much better than mages could, since our shadow resist debuff stacks up over hits. The problem is, of course, none of the pvp encounters usually last that long for me to build up the full debuffs, and the debuff is dispellable.
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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2005, 05:03:17 AM »

My 60 frost mage continues to dominate both pvp and pve situations.  Nerfing it up the butt????  I hardly think so.  Mana regen is better, +damage items are better, I think you should reserve your comments for when you have experience.
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2005, 07:27:51 AM »

Quote from: "Ender"
My 60 frost mage continues to dominate both pvp and pve situations.  Nerfing it up the butt????  I hardly think so.  Mana regen is better, +damage items are better, I think you should reserve your comments for when you have experience.
They actually saved Frost Mages -- your only dimishing returns spell is Frost Nova.

The original design called for EVERY frost spell to count toward the SAME diminishing returns formula.  That means that in four casts of ANY kind of Frost spell, the enemy would be totally immune to both the damage and the snare/root effects.
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2005, 03:52:44 PM »

LoL that was not part of the design decision, that was a bug.  If they had gotten it to work to not snare as long after 4th bolt I STILL would be fine with it.  4 frost bolts is enough to kill.  Rarely do I ever cast 4 frost bolts in pvp at same target, need AM and fireblast to finish off.
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