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Author Topic: WoW 1.4.0 patch notes  (Read 6867 times)
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olaf
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« on: April 09, 2005, 01:17:40 AM »

Almost identical to the 'leaked' notes:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/patch-05-04-06.html

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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2005, 04:00:29 AM »

What's the ETA for it going live?
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Calvin
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2005, 04:06:34 AM »

Only one change to warriors is not even close to being enough. Still, some nice stuff. Time to start spending more time with teh game again.
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2005, 04:08:26 AM »

Really?  I thought the changes to Warriors were great last patch.  But then I don't duel or PvP that much.  But soloing has just become so much easier (level 34 now).
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olaf
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2005, 08:14:18 AM »

Quote from: "SuperHiro"
Really?  I thought the changes to Warriors were great last patch.  But then I don't duel or PvP that much.  But soloing has just become so much easier (level 34 now).

They were nice.  Still, the protection and fury trees need a lot of work.  Especially protection.  You might expect a tree called protection to actually provide some.

H
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2005, 04:06:40 PM »

I think the changes to warrior were significant last patch (whether or not you liked them), and perhaps Blizzard is giving a bit of time to see how they pan out.

Any word on how the honor system is for those who've tried it on the test servers?
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Sepiche
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2005, 01:56:22 PM »

Quote from: "SuperHiro"
Really?  I thought the changes to Warriors were great last patch.  But then I don't duel or PvP that much.  But soloing has just become so much easier (level 34 now).

Same here.  I noticed a significant improvement to my survivability in the last patch.  I don't care if I'm the best class or the worst, just as long as I don't die every few pulls. Tongue

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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2005, 02:01:50 PM »

Arg, so this is how it would be like if you played on a high population server. The test server is laggy and constantly disconnecting people. On the other hand, I never seen so many 60s running around.

The honor system works pretty well from what I can tell. Your honorable and dishonorable kills were being track under a new tab on your character screen. However the kills weren't constantly tallied by the server towards ranking. So you might log one night and return to find out that you are a sergeant.

There are plenty of raids everywhere, TM and BB are all madhouses and I would imagine that leveling for lower level players would be even more difficult now.

Can't wait!

On the priest changes, specifically holy nova.

Around 200 points of damage, 500 healed, 414 mana, instant cast with no aggro. 1 minute cool down.

Not sure how useful that would be, but 500 instant heal is... okay.
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drifter
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2005, 03:35:58 PM »

Kills are supposed to be tallied at the end of each day arent they.  They a pool of points and at the end of each day they points are then divided up amongst all players participating right?
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2005, 05:52:21 PM »

I cancelled my account about a month ago and it looks like it staying cancelled. My god...

I'm guessing that Blizzard is just not sure what to do with the hunter class or WoW in general. I refuse to pay them for the kind of service I have thus far recieved. Now my favorite class is nerfed to uselessness. I do mean USELESS in every sense of the word.
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2005, 06:32:32 PM »

At this point Hunters are suffering from two different DPS-lowering effects.  The first, the hit to pet DPS, has been stated by Bliz to be a bug.  The second is the switchover to using the defense stat of the target as opposed to the level for determining range hits and misses.  

Right now folks on the test server are noticing around a 10-20% miss rate in PvE and anywhere up to about an 80% in PvP.  What I've seen indicates that the issue is that now ranged shots are not just missing and being deflected, but also dodged and parried.  Bliz hasn't said anything about it yet, but it is still early since the patch was released late on Friday to Test.  Hopefully we'll see something about it today.

I can't imagine that Bliz would further reduce our DPS, particularly since it was hit significantly with the last patch.  But I figure we've got at least a week of testing to still be done on this one since it's not going up tomorrow, the earliest they'd do it is next Tuesday.
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ericb
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2005, 07:15:17 PM »

I would be surprised (but not shocked) if the patch went live tomorrow.  Blizzard seems to not mind testing for a few days and then releasing to the normal servers for more testing.

Not very happy with the patch but not mad either...since my main is a feral druid the roots nerf doesn't hurt much and the fixed polymorph bug really helps.  Racial abilities still suck for the most part, warlocks get screwed again, hunters even more screwed (why mine is not shelved probably for good) and no spirit fixes even now.  

Rogues should be really happy now with some high level people getting vastly improved damage because multipliers were not being calculated correctly.  Lots of 1/2 shot kills on cloth wearers now.
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2005, 09:36:39 PM »

The state of this game continues to disgust me.

Frost Mages are nerfed so hard up the ass this patch that the nerf comes out their mouth.  Why?  Because Blizzard gave Shaman a ludicrously overpowered spell, (Frost Shock), and we all know if one of Blizzard's favored classes gets a nerf, another class will be getting a whole lot more nerfs to ensure the favored class stays in power.

What's !@#$ing insane is that Blizzard nerfs all immobilization/snare spells, but then DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stem stunlocking butt@#!@ing Rogues.

It's pretty damn obvious to me now:  You play a Rogue in this game, or you lose.

Simple as that.
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Sepiche
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2005, 10:04:18 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
The state of this game continues to disgust me.

Frost Mages are nerfed so hard up the ass this patch that the nerf comes out their mouth.  Why?  Because Blizzard gave Shaman a ludicrously overpowered spell, (Frost Shock), and we all know if one of Blizzard's favored classes gets a nerf, another class will be getting a whole lot more nerfs to ensure the favored class stays in power.

What's !@#$ing insane is that Blizzard nerfs all immobilization/snare spells, but then DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stem stunlocking butt@#!@ing Rogues.

It's pretty damn obvious to me now:  You play a Rogue in this game, or you lose.

Simple as that.

You should try cut back on the sugar man.  Seriously.  We're worried about you.

s
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2005, 10:13:24 PM »

Quote from: "Sepiche"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
The state of this game continues to disgust me.

Frost Mages are nerfed so hard up the ass this patch that the nerf comes out their mouth.  Why?  Because Blizzard gave Shaman a ludicrously overpowered spell, (Frost Shock), and we all know if one of Blizzard's favored classes gets a nerf, another class will be getting a whole lot more nerfs to ensure the favored class stays in power.

What's !@#$ing insane is that Blizzard nerfs all immobilization/snare spells, but then DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stem stunlocking butt@#!@ing Rogues.

It's pretty damn obvious to me now:  You play a Rogue in this game, or you lose.

Simple as that.

You should try cut back on the sugar man.  Seriously.  We're worried about you.

s

Yeah, I get worked up about this too easily.

The thing is, the game has so much potential, and Blizzard just pisses it away with shitty change after shitty change.

EDIT:  And it makes me sad to see casting classes get such abuse.   :cry:
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Jumangi
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2005, 12:16:56 AM »

I'm amazed. Another patch is coming out and what are people doing? Ohh yea there bitching more. Even the people who arn't playing the game.  :roll:
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2005, 01:59:08 AM »

Quote from: "Koz"
I think the changes to warrior were significant last patch (whether or not you liked them), and perhaps Blizzard is giving a bit of time to see how they pan out.

Any word on how the honor system is for those who've tried it on the test servers?


Perhaps, but they were nowhere near enough. I guess I could have some better armor, but Orgs made me everything that I couldnt get from a dungeon at my level when I had taken a break-and when I came back and tested pure combat for a couple hours I was disgusted to say the least. They say (the boards) that it starts to get much better near 60 with weapon combos and Mortal Strike, which doesnt suprise me.
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Koz
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2005, 04:17:48 AM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
The state of this game continues to disgust me.

Frost Mages are nerfed so hard up the ass this patch that the nerf comes out their mouth.  Why?  Because Blizzard gave Shaman a ludicrously overpowered spell, (Frost Shock), and we all know if one of Blizzard's favored classes gets a nerf, another class will be getting a whole lot more nerfs to ensure the favored class stays in power.

What's !@#$ing insane is that Blizzard nerfs all immobilization/snare spells, but then DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stem stunlocking butt@#!@ing Rogues.

It's pretty damn obvious to me now:  You play a Rogue in this game, or you lose.

Simple as that.


Are you talking about PvP specifically? You may be very well correct as I've not done nearly enough PvP to know how good the class is.

But Rogues are next to hunters in uselessness in instances and other high-end PvE stuff. A very low AC (I often have an AC worse than a buffed mage or warlock) along with an inferior DPS to a mage and possibly other classes (and no useful utility abilities) make them VERY undesirable to have in a group or raid.
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olaf
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2005, 07:05:29 AM »

The worst part about Rogues in groups and raids?  Almost none have any clue what aggro management is.

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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2005, 07:12:20 AM »

Quote from: "Koz"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
The state of this game continues to disgust me.

Frost Mages are nerfed so hard up the ass this patch that the nerf comes out their mouth.  Why?  Because Blizzard gave Shaman a ludicrously overpowered spell, (Frost Shock), and we all know if one of Blizzard's favored classes gets a nerf, another class will be getting a whole lot more nerfs to ensure the favored class stays in power.

What's !@#$ing insane is that Blizzard nerfs all immobilization/snare spells, but then DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stem stunlocking butt@#!@ing Rogues.

It's pretty damn obvious to me now:  You play a Rogue in this game, or you lose.

Simple as that.


Are you talking about PvP specifically? You may be very well correct as I've not done nearly enough PvP to know how good the class is.

But Rogues are next to hunters in uselessness in instances and other high-end PvE stuff. A very low AC (I often have an AC worse than a buffed mage or warlock) along with an inferior DPS to a mage and possibly other classes (and no useful utility abilities) make them VERY undesirable to have in a group or raid.


I'm talking in every situation but Molten Core.

Rogues are incredibly useful, totally soloable, and the most lethal class in the game all the way up to 60.  They are far too good, especially in comparison to other classes.

The reason behind the myth of Rogues not being wanted in groups is simple:  there are far, far too many of them, and the limited slots in groups there are, especially at high levels, are quickly filled by guildmates, friends, or regulars -- all of which have a statistically high chance of being Rogues themselves.  The few slots left open to the public are naturally going to go to whatever the raid needs for balance -- since the bottom three classes in player populations are Priests, Druids, and Mages, they're statistically going to be in highest demand and the slots 'reserved' for them.  

In short, Rogues are quite handy in groups throughout the game, and a well-played Rogue, like any well-played class, is never more of a liability than he or she has to be.  Unfortunately, when your raid of 30 already has eight veteran Rogues who've run MC before, and you have three spots open and not enough healers, you're going to turn down any other Rogues that ask for a spot in the raid.
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2005, 11:29:23 AM »

Quote from: "Koz"
But Rogues are next to hunters in uselessness in instances and other high-end PvE stuff. A very low AC (I often have an AC worse than a buffed mage or warlock) along with an inferior DPS to a mage and possibly other classes (and no useful utility abilities) make them VERY undesirable to have in a group or raid.


Bah, you need warrior, priest, mage. The other two slots can be filled by any other class, including rogue. A well-played rogue brings a lot to the table. Ever heard of sap? or better yet, improved sap? That is an awesome ability that can make a group instance run extremely efficient. Rogue saps one, mage sheeps another, leaving a very managable battle.

Leather mitigates more damage than cloth. I heal all classes and I would not say rogues have a problem in the damage mitigation department. They seem right where they should be (i.e. need more healing than plate-wearers, but consideably less than cloth wearers. Heck, I would say, on average, I dump more mana into healing a mail-wearing hunter that has agro over a rogue. Plus the rogue has some good tools to lose agro). If a mage gets agro, it usually means I have to instantly PW:Shield him cause his health drops like a stone. That is not the case for rogues. In a lot of situations, a rogue can off-tank a mob.
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2005, 01:05:19 PM »

LE, I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are.  It's interesting to see how many people think they know the capabilities of rogues when they don't play one.  When someone who plays a rogue tries to correct those misconceptions, the response is inevitably "you're wrong, even though I have no experience with a rogue besides getting ganked".  

Just FYI, I have a 60 rogue, a 60 mage and I'm working on my warrior (post-patch).

One on one, PvP server, rogues are very powerful and quite annoying.  so many players have based their opinions on rogues from this particular situation.  In other situations, like group PvP, PvE and instances, rogues aren't anywhere near the best class.

You know, I was going to write a long discussion about how rogues aren't "uber".  But it wouldn't make any difference b/c you'd never believe the truth anyway.

Just FYI, rogues aren't the most played class - hunters are, followed by the paladin/shaman combo.  Check out Wowcensus - the best currently avaialble source for realm census info - for more details.

Needless to say, my mage is a far, far better character than my rogue and if I could, I'd trade my rogue in for any other class in a heartbeat (except hunters, which I hate to play).  That's right.  If Blizzard gave me the option to turn my rogue to a druid, priest, warrior, paladin, warlock, etc. - I'd do so without question.
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2005, 01:31:58 PM »

Quote from: "Blackadar"
LE, I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are.  It's interesting to see how many people think they know the capabilities of rogues when they don't play one.  When someone who plays a rogue tries to correct those misconceptions, the response is inevitably "you're wrong, even though I have no experience with a rogue besides getting ganked".  

Just FYI, I have a 60 rogue, a 60 mage and I'm working on my warrior (post-patch).

One on one, PvP server, rogues are very powerful and quite annoying.  so many players have based their opinions on rogues from this particular situation.  In other situations, like group PvP, PvE and instances, rogues aren't anywhere near the best class.

You know, I was going to write a long discussion about how rogues aren't "uber".  But it wouldn't make any difference b/c you'd never believe the truth anyway.

Just FYI, rogues aren't the most played class - hunters are, followed by the paladin/shaman combo.  Check out Wowcensus - the best currently avaialble source for realm census info - for more details.

Needless to say, my mage is a far, far better character than my rogue and if I could, I'd trade my rogue in for any other class in a heartbeat (except hunters, which I hate to play).  That's right.  If Blizzard gave me the option to turn my rogue to a druid, priest, warrior, paladin, warlock, etc. - I'd do so without question.


Mages are pretty awesome. I seem to remember everybody were whining about them when the game was just released.

I got killed by one in three hits without a chance to fight back. Polymorph, polymorph, combustion, pyroblast, arcane missile = dead priest. Who needs Ice Mages? Especially now with all the + spell crit items in DM mages are even more powerful then before, and much more useful in group pvp than rogues because of their range.

Apparently warriors in the unofficial standard MS / Arm build are forces to be reckon with when they are properly equipped. I think they are one of the few classes that did not suffer from item diminished return.
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2005, 03:16:25 PM »

just like any other MMO, everyone always complains about a patch, a nerf, a fix, whatever, and how ganked thier class is.  I play a 46 pallie, and everyone whined when they FIXED Seal of the Crusader.  Hey its not my fauly you specced around a big.  My gf plays a 54 warrior, on horde side, and pre patch NEVER had a problem with rage, or damage.  Cuz she went total damage spec, and STILL has her crit percent at about 22 or something nuts.  As for PVP I dont know, I dont play.  I try and take part sometimes, but until the honor system is in place, its no real point as most raids on towns are JUST level 60's smacking everyone around.  Everyone always complains no matter what about something.  The way I see things is that most people dont know how to play thier class properly, and thats the problem.  As a Protection paladin, my job is to fight when I can, heal when I can, and make sure to the best of my ability that people dont die.  I watch everyones health, I try and make sure the mob dont run, and I stand there and take damage, and try to keep aggro on me.  I cat Slavation on casters, and COmmand on myself.  Learn yo play your class properly, and thier wont be problem.  Vorcon,. who's a rogue pulled Sm Monestary for us the other day and did a WONDERFUL job.  Out healer was only about level 36 or something and also did a wonderful job.  I think the entire time we had one death.  And no more than 3 from a pull even inside where Mograine is.  Just learn to play your class, and stop whining about how blizzard nevert fixes anything, and then when they fix something you whine.  SHhhhhhh.....
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2005, 04:32:56 PM »

Rogues don't get used in raids because they are leather wearing melee units.  If you come across any mob that's AE, then the Rogue dies, pronto.
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2005, 04:38:32 PM »

Quote from: "Blackadar"
LE, I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are.  It's interesting to see how many people think they know the capabilities of rogues when they don't play one.

Actually I did have a Rogue in his 20s, and I often played my brother's 42 Rogue when he wasn't on and I wanted to do some PvPing.  I was paying for his account, after all.  Sure, I wasn't level 60 and didn't have to deal with the hell of never getting a group because I was one of countless others, but I thought I got a good impression of the class's abilities in my time played.

Quote
One on one, PvP server, rogues are very powerful and quite annoying.

I'd say, 1v1, a Rogue is probably the most lethal class in the game in PvP.  Warriors/Paladins with Plate and decent weapons can survive to turn the tide against a Rogue's initial assault.  Really no other class can.  Sure, if the Rogue isn't stealthed and isn't using Sprint and charges a Hunter or Mage, he's going to be cut down in seconds.  Despite the WoW forums indication, most Rogues aren't that dumb -- they use their immensely robust, powerful skills to simply own 1v1 and small-scale PvP.

Quote
In other situations, like group PvP, PvE and instances, rogues aren't anywhere near the best class.

Uh, Rogues are just fine in PvE, and they're quite useful in instances.  I think I adressed that point above.

Rogues suffer in middle group PvP, but thrive in 1v1, small, and large group PvP.  Why middle PvP but not large?  Because large PvP, (I'm thinking 9pm EST on a weekend, Southshore vs. Tarren Mill), is so chaotic and disorganized that Rogues can stealth-flank, pick their fights, and Sprint/Vanish away if things get hairy.

Quote
Just FYI, rogues aren't the most played class - hunters are, followed by the paladin/shaman combo.  Check out Wowcensus - the best currently avaialble source for realm census info - for more details.

Depends on the server, and WoWCensus is down anyway so I can't check.  I will say that most Cosmos census screencaps from this patch release I've seen have shown a clear favortism toward Rogues.  I think that's because Hunters and Paladins were nerfed/fixed.

And Rogues are played more than Shamen.  They always have been.  The Undead Rogue is nearly unstoppable against Warlocks and Priests.

Quote
Needless to say, my mage is a far, far better character than my rogue and if I could, I'd trade my rogue in for any other class in a heartbeat (except hunters, which I hate to play).  That's right.  If Blizzard gave me the option to turn my rogue to a druid, priest, warrior, paladin, warlock, etc. - I'd do so without question.


Oh, I hated my Rogue and I didn't much enjoy PvPing with my brother's.  It was just boring, and far too easy.  I much preferred my Mage as well, but I'll readily admit he was a much worse PvPer.
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2005, 05:57:56 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Blackadar"
LE, I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are.  It's interesting to see how many people think they know the capabilities of rogues when they don't play one.

Actually I did have a Rogue in his 20s, and I often played my brother's 42 Rogue when he wasn't on and I wanted to do some PvPing.  I was paying for his account, after all.  Sure, I wasn't level 60 and didn't have to deal with the hell of never getting a group because I was one of countless others, but I thought I got a good impression of the class's abilities in my time played.

Quote
One on one, PvP server, rogues are very powerful and quite annoying.

I'd say, 1v1, a Rogue is probably the most lethal class in the game in PvP.  Warriors/Paladins with Plate and decent weapons can survive to turn the tide against a Rogue's initial assault.  Really no other class can.  Sure, if the Rogue isn't stealthed and isn't using Sprint and charges a Hunter or Mage, he's going to be cut down in seconds.  Despite the WoW forums indication, most Rogues aren't that dumb -- they use their immensely robust, powerful skills to simply own 1v1 and small-scale PvP.

Quote
In other situations, like group PvP, PvE and instances, rogues aren't anywhere near the best class.

Uh, Rogues are just fine in PvE, and they're quite useful in instances.  I think I adressed that point above.

Rogues suffer in middle group PvP, but thrive in 1v1, small, and large group PvP.  Why middle PvP but not large?  Because large PvP, (I'm thinking 9pm EST on a weekend, Southshore vs. Tarren Mill), is so chaotic and disorganized that Rogues can stealth-flank, pick their fights, and Sprint/Vanish away if things get hairy.

Quote
Just FYI, rogues aren't the most played class - hunters are, followed by the paladin/shaman combo.  Check out Wowcensus - the best currently avaialble source for realm census info - for more details.

Depends on the server, and WoWCensus is down anyway so I can't check.  I will say that most Cosmos census screencaps from this patch release I've seen have shown a clear favortism toward Rogues.  I think that's because Hunters and Paladins were nerfed/fixed.

And Rogues are played more than Shamen.  They always have been.  The Undead Rogue is nearly unstoppable against Warlocks and Priests.

Quote
Needless to say, my mage is a far, far better character than my rogue and if I could, I'd trade my rogue in for any other class in a heartbeat (except hunters, which I hate to play).  That's right.  If Blizzard gave me the option to turn my rogue to a druid, priest, warrior, paladin, warlock, etc. - I'd do so without question.


Oh, I hated my Rogue and I didn't much enjoy PvPing with my brother's.  It was just boring, and far too easy.  I much preferred my Mage as well, but I'll readily admit he was a much worse PvPer.


1.  Not to get nitpicky, but there's a big difference between a 42 rogue and a 60 rogue.  A HUGE difference.  In the mid levels, rogues just flat-out own.  At 60, they don't.  Heck at 42, most paladins and warriors aren't even wearing plate yet.  My rogue was God at 42.  At 60 he's barely able to hold his own.  My mage - with my frost shield - has more HPs than my rogue.  I've been one-shot dropped in instances (not even MC instances!).  The game tends to really balance at 60.  

2.  Blizz has said, publicly, that this game won't be balanced for 1 on 1 PvP but focused on group PvP.  That's why you can have 40 on each side - max - in the Battlegrounds (which is a fairly large area).  

3.  You're right.  No other class can survive the initial assault beyond warrors and paladins (both of whom own rogues) - if they just stand there.  But there are other ways around it.  For example, a mage can blink out, turn around, poly, heal, move to max distance and nuke the hell out of the rogue.  A priest who even gets 1/2 a second will fear and then have a field day with a rogue.  A succubus will charm.  Etc.

Plus, there are a number of ways to see stealth.  The problem is on PvP servers where you can be attacked anywhere as you can't stay prepared forever.  On the BG (Battlegrounds) and PvE servers, this isn't a problem.  You expect it on the BG and you can only be attacked if flagged on PvE.

Once the rogue has been detected/feared/charmed/Dot'd/targeted/etc., the fight is over and the rogue will lose.  Virtually every single time.  As a rogue, the trick in fighting me (or any other) is make the fight last longer than 15 seconds.  If we don't get the kill quickly, we probably won't get it.  So many people don't realize that.  When fighting a rogue, go instantly defensive.  Don't flee (backstab) - but do everything you can to mitigate damage.  Once you survive the initial attack, you can have a field day with one because they're so weak.

3.  Rogues are ok PvE (though there's little point at level 60) and in some instances.  I hold my own in some places.  In others?  Forget it.

4.  I haven't tried large PvP becuase the lag is sooooo bad.  I don't know if it's been fixed or not, but it used to be a slide show, so I gave up on it.

5.  Rogues are played more than shaman.  But you have to combine shaman and paladins as these are the side specific classes to get a true number.  So it's:

#1 - Hunters
#2 - Paladins/Shaman
#3 - Rogues
#4 - Warriors

Interesting that those are the 4 melee classes. Rogues are only 3rd.  I do think you'll see a lot of rogues created because of the BattleGrounds, but they'll be sorely disappointed when they hit 60.

6.  Leveling my rogue was easy.  Leveling my mage was easier.  I really didn't see any difference.

7.  Finally, there was a site (I wish I could remember where) that tracked the win percentages on PvP battles.  You'd expect rogues to dominate on PvP servers given their inherent ability to stealth/gank.  Yet it was shaman that had the best win percentage.  

I'm not saying rogues don't need some adjustments.  I'd trade having CS/Ambush on a timer (1 minute?) and the elimination of kidney shot altogether to have some AoE avoidance.  Because in the Battlegrounds people will be totally prepared - stealth detection glasses, totems, DoTs, AoEs - and rogues will be decimated quickly.  I think that's when we'll really see the weaknesses of rogues come to the forefront.
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Jumangi
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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2005, 06:31:37 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"


Rogues are incredibly useful, totally soloable, and the most lethal class in the game all the way up to 60.  They are far too good, especially in comparison to other classes.


That is simply false. period.

Your "experience" that you listed about playing Rogues just shows that you don't really have it, especially in higher levels. Playing one to the 20's means nothing. Trying out a higher level one is minimal. Play one all the way to at least the 50's then come back and talk(I'd say this about any class, becasue unless the person has then they don't know what their talking about).

They arn't the best PvP. IMO a well specced priest for example played decently is right up their as the best in PvP.

The biggest fallacy of all this PvP talk is that everybody talks about this as if its only 1v1 dual stuff. This isn't the reality of PvP for the most part(at least not on a PvP server) out in contested areas. All this talk is nothing more than "on paper" stuff which mostly goes out the window when you get into the game.
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2005, 07:21:23 PM »

Quote from: "Blackadar"
Not to get nitpicky, but there's a big difference between a 42 rogue and a 60 rogue. A HUGE difference. In the mid levels, rogues just flat-out own. At 60, they don't. Heck at 42, most paladins and warriors aren't even wearing plate yet. My rogue was God at 42. At 60 he's barely able to hold his own. My mage - with my frost shield - has more HPs than my rogue. I've been one-shot dropped in instances (not even MC instances!).


What mob one-shotted you in an instance? When you say "barely able to hold his own", what exactly are you talking about?

Frost shield? I am not sure exactly what that is. Do you mean Ice Barrier? While that is a handy spell it is on a two minute cool-down so is not really "hit points".

And, as I noted previously, I have healed the mages, rogues, tanks, hunters, ect through all the instances and some raids (but, admittedly no Molten Core yet). It does you no good trying to convince me a mage has more survivability than a rogue. I am the one healing your butts and based on that, I know a rogue's damage mitigation is far superior to a mages. I do not have to instantly cast power word shield on a rogue that gets agro because he will die before I can cast a Flash Heal, which is what I have to do with mages.  

You will get no sympathy from this priest, thats for sure. Rogues in my groups have almost always pulled more than their share of the weight and the really good ones have a big impact on group success/efficiency.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2005, 07:35:47 PM »

Quote from: "Toe"
Quote from: "Blackadar"
Not to get nitpicky, but there's a big difference between a 42 rogue and a 60 rogue. A HUGE difference. In the mid levels, rogues just flat-out own. At 60, they don't. Heck at 42, most paladins and warriors aren't even wearing plate yet. My rogue was God at 42. At 60 he's barely able to hold his own. My mage - with my frost shield - has more HPs than my rogue. I've been one-shot dropped in instances (not even MC instances!).


What mob one-shotted you in an instance? When you say "barely able to hold his own", what exactly are you talking about?

Frost shield? I am not sure exactly what that is. Do you mean Ice Barrier? While that is a handy spell it is on a two minute cool-down so is not really "hit points".

And, as I noted previously, I have healed the mages, rogues, tanks, hunters, ect through all the instances and some raids (but, admittedly no Molten Core yet). It does you no good trying to convince me a mage has more survivability than a rogue. I am the one healing your butts and based on that, I know a rogue's damage mitigation is far superior to a mages. I do not have to instantly cast power word shield on a rogue that gets agro because he will die before I can cast a Flash Heal, which is what I have to do with mages.  

You will get no sympathy from this priest, thats for sure. Rogues in my groups have almost always pulled more than their share of the weight and the really good ones have a big impact on group success/efficiency.


I need to look up the name of the one-shot mob.  It was in Scholo.

Barely holding my own means that I believe that any class has just as good of a chance in a fight as I do.   I truly believe that.

Yes, it is Ice Barrier.  Two minute cooldown, spell lasts for 1 minute.  It does effectively become hit points.  I use it often.

More later...gotta run to attend a meeting.
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2005, 08:28:50 PM »

Quote from: "Toe"
Quote from: "Blackadar"
Not to get nitpicky, but there's a big difference between a 42 rogue and a 60 rogue. A HUGE difference. In the mid levels, rogues just flat-out own. At 60, they don't. Heck at 42, most paladins and warriors aren't even wearing plate yet. My rogue was God at 42. At 60 he's barely able to hold his own. My mage - with my frost shield - has more HPs than my rogue. I've been one-shot dropped in instances (not even MC instances!).


What mob one-shotted you in an instance? When you say "barely able to hold his own", what exactly are you talking about?

Frost shield? I am not sure exactly what that is. Do you mean Ice Barrier? While that is a handy spell it is on a two minute cool-down so is not really "hit points".

And, as I noted previously, I have healed the mages, rogues, tanks, hunters, ect through all the instances and some raids (but, admittedly no Molten Core yet). It does you no good trying to convince me a mage has more survivability than a rogue. I am the one healing your butts and based on that, I know a rogue's damage mitigation is far superior to a mages. I do not have to instantly cast power word shield on a rogue that gets agro because he will die before I can cast a Flash Heal, which is what I have to do with mages.  

You will get no sympathy from this priest, thats for sure. Rogues in my groups have almost always pulled more than their share of the weight and the really good ones have a big impact on group success/efficiency.


I was two-hit killed by an ogre in Dire Maul once. It may have been one of the bosses, can't remember. And Herod in SM killed me with one of those whirlwind things he does, that was pretty funny.

I'm not saying Rogues are crappy classes. They work well in PvP and on certain types of mobs in instances, but they are not the elite uber class LE thinks they are. They are in fact *GASP* quite balanced (and have been from the beginning).
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2005, 09:25:49 PM »

Quote from: "Blackadar"
Quote from: "Toe"
Quote from: "Blackadar"
Not to get nitpicky, but there's a big difference between a 42 rogue and a 60 rogue. A HUGE difference. In the mid levels, rogues just flat-out own. At 60, they don't. Heck at 42, most paladins and warriors aren't even wearing plate yet. My rogue was God at 42. At 60 he's barely able to hold his own. My mage - with my frost shield - has more HPs than my rogue. I've been one-shot dropped in instances (not even MC instances!).


What mob one-shotted you in an instance? When you say "barely able to hold his own", what exactly are you talking about?

Frost shield? I am not sure exactly what that is. Do you mean Ice Barrier? While that is a handy spell it is on a two minute cool-down so is not really "hit points".

And, as I noted previously, I have healed the mages, rogues, tanks, hunters, ect through all the instances and some raids (but, admittedly no Molten Core yet). It does you no good trying to convince me a mage has more survivability than a rogue. I am the one healing your butts and based on that, I know a rogue's damage mitigation is far superior to a mages. I do not have to instantly cast power word shield on a rogue that gets agro because he will die before I can cast a Flash Heal, which is what I have to do with mages.  

You will get no sympathy from this priest, thats for sure. Rogues in my groups have almost always pulled more than their share of the weight and the really good ones have a big impact on group success/efficiency.


I need to look up the name of the one-shot mob.  It was in Scholo.

Barely holding my own means that I believe that any class has just as good of a chance in a fight as I do.   I truly believe that.

Yes, it is Ice Barrier.  Two minute cooldown, spell lasts for 1 minute.  It does effectively become hit points.  I use it often.

More later...gotta run to attend a meeting.


More....

You may be healing, but I actually play a 60 rogue and mage.  I'd dare say I know more about the class than someone who merely heals them.  

Against direct attacks, I die about as quickly either way from an endgame mob.  The only defense that a rogue has to last longer against a direct attack by an endgame mob is evade.  That will keep me alive a bit longer.  Of course, as a mage, I can Ice Block and instantly lose the aggro (and be invulnerable for 8 seconds).  I just can't attack during that time.  Both of those skillls (evade and ice block) are on timers, by the way.  Or I could blink.  It won't lose the aggro, but it will keep me alive.

I could care less about sympathy.  But rogues aren't the uber class that many make them out to be.  I find that most complaints against rogues are on PvP servers where "ganking" is rather easy.  One PvE servers or in places where you're really concentrating on PvP, rogues aren't better than any other class.
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2005, 09:26:56 PM »

Note: I have alot of high end equipment, but this is just a counterpoint to guys saying rogues > all.

As an Arms/Fury warrior (standard 31/20) with a Reaper, and all the +crit gear plate I can find, I absolutely destroy rogues. Overpower crits for 1k+, MS crits for 1.2k. They can't vanish (deep wounds bleeding), they can't run (hamstring/piercing howl > sprint), and they can't damage you faster than you damage them. You're always enraged, +40% melee damage, since their crit rate is so high.

Deep wounds, rend, hamstring, improved overpower, piercing howl (spam this to knock them out of stealth), disarm, and the always amazing mortal strike are all rogue killing tools.

I've taken full Shadowcraft rogues, with a Felstriker offhand Rend mainhand with 60% or more hps left.

The old rock paper scissors mentality is definately here: warriors > rogues > casters > warriors. Casters have so many tools available to keep warriors at range, while rogues can stealth in and stunlock/kill them before they can use these tools. Its fairly balanced, but you have to look at the whole picture. Group PvP is where the balance lies, not in dueling or 1 on 1 fights. A holy priest is laughed at in a 1on1 fight, but pair him with a 31/20 warrior in a group, and I guarantee you people will think twice about jumping him.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2005, 09:28:27 PM »

Quote from: "madpeon"
Note: I have alot of high end equipment, but this is just a counterpoint to guys saying rogues > all.

As an Arms/Fury warrior (standard 31/20) with a Reaper, and all the +crit gear plate I can find, I absolutely destroy rogues. Overpower crits for 1k+, MS crits for 1.2k. They can't vanish (deep wounds bleeding), they can't run (hamstring/piercing howl > sprint), and they can't damage you faster than you damage them. You're always enraged, +40% melee damage, since their crit rate is so high.

Deep wounds, rend, hamstring, improved overpower, piercing howl (spam this to knock them out of stealth), disarm, and the always amazing mortal strike are all rogue killing tools.

I've taken full Shadowcraft rogues, with a Felstriker offhand Rend mainhand with 60% or more hps left.

The old rock paper scissors mentality is definately here: warriors > rogues > casters > warriors. Casters have so many tools available to keep warriors at range, while rogues can stealth in and stunlock/kill them before they can use these tools. Its fairly balanced, but you have to look at the whole picture. Group PvP is where the balance lies, not in dueling or 1 on 1 fights. A holy priest is laughed at in a 1on1 fight, but pair him with a 31/20 warrior in a group, and I guarantee you people will think twice about jumping him.


Excellent post by someone who knows how to play their class.
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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2005, 01:23:16 PM »

Quote from: "Blackadar"

You may be healing, but I actually play a 60 rogue and mage.  I'd dare say I know more about the class than someone who merely heals them.  


I'd dare say I know more about the what level of damage each of the classes take compared to one another than someone who merely attacks mobs.

I thought we were talking about PvE (instance) group contribution here and the balance of classes in said group, not PvP power.

I do not think rogues are "uber". I was trying to point out that they are not as weak as you were trying to imply with comments like "I was one-shotted.", "My mage has more hitpoints.", etc. It seemed to me that you were complaining about how weak they are with comments like those. Which, based on my experience healing them and the other classes, is misleading and not accurate.

Yeah, some instance main bosses can crit on a mortal strike and bring the pain, one-shotting just about anyone but a full-health, sheild-bearing warrior.

Quote
Yes, it is Ice Barrier. Two minute cooldown, spell lasts for 1 minute. It does effectively become hit points. I use it often.


So when you said your mage has more hits points you meant to say "My mage has more hit points 50% of the time when I have the required mana and have not had my spells suppressed." (with stuff like Silence, shield bashes, kicks, etc). Ok, I can buy that.
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2005, 02:07:59 PM »

Quote from: "madpeon"
Note: I have alot of high end equipment, but this is just a counterpoint to guys saying rogues > all.

As an Arms/Fury warrior (standard 31/20) with a Reaper, and all the +crit gear plate I can find, I absolutely destroy rogues. Overpower crits for 1k+, MS crits for 1.2k. They can't vanish (deep wounds bleeding), they can't run (hamstring/piercing howl > sprint), and they can't damage you faster than you damage them. You're always enraged, +40% melee damage, since their crit rate is so high.

Deep wounds, rend, hamstring, improved overpower, piercing howl (spam this to knock them out of stealth), disarm, and the always amazing mortal strike are all rogue killing tools.

I've taken full Shadowcraft rogues, with a Felstriker offhand Rend mainhand with 60% or more hps left.

The old rock paper scissors mentality is definately here: warriors > rogues > casters > warriors. Casters have so many tools available to keep warriors at range, while rogues can stealth in and stunlock/kill them before they can use these tools. Its fairly balanced, but you have to look at the whole picture. Group PvP is where the balance lies, not in dueling or 1 on 1 fights. A holy priest is laughed at in a 1on1 fight, but pair him with a 31/20 warrior in a group, and I guarantee you people will think twice about jumping him.


rock paper scissors my ass.

A rogue only stands a CHANCE against a decent mage if they have sprint up, otherwise forget it. shadow Priests just hands down destroy rogues unless you are fotm undead. Good druids are also VERY hard to kill (although this may change with the root changes). Warlocks aren't too bad, unless they have a succubus and then you will be hard pressed to kill them (unless you are fotm undead of course).

So really, what magic using class do rogues cancel out like a warrior does a rogue? I am not complaining about warriors since i am also making a war alt myself and think they should have the advantage against rogues, i just find people saying rogues destroy casters funny. Yeah, we kill the newbie mages who don't even blink (this annoys me to no end as it breaks my cheap shot, sprint schedule) and warlocks who decide not to have succubus up (why warlocks, why?), but that is about all.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2005, 02:42:05 PM »

Quote from: "Toe"
Quote from: "Blackadar"

You may be healing, but I actually play a 60 rogue and mage.  I'd dare say I know more about the class than someone who merely heals them.  


I'd dare say I know more about the what level of damage each of the classes take compared to one another than someone who merely attacks mobs.

I thought we were talking about PvE (instance) group contribution here and the balance of classes in said group, not PvP power.

I do not think rogues are "uber". I was trying to point out that they are not as weak as you were trying to imply with comments like "I was one-shotted.", "My mage has more hitpoints.", etc. It seemed to me that you were complaining about how weak they are with comments like those. Which, based on my experience healing them and the other classes, is misleading and not accurate.

Yeah, some instance main bosses can crit on a mortal strike and bring the pain, one-shotting just about anyone but a full-health, sheild-bearing warrior.

Quote
Yes, it is Ice Barrier. Two minute cooldown, spell lasts for 1 minute. It does effectively become hit points. I use it often.


So when you said your mage has more hits points you meant to say "My mage has more hit points 50% of the time when I have the required mana and have not had my spells suppressed." (with stuff like Silence, shield bashes, kicks, etc). Ok, I can buy that.


I've never said that rogues are a horrid class.  Just responding to LE's assertion that rogues are the end-all-be-all of WoW.  It's simply untrue.  Rogues aren't weak.  But they do have weaknesses that can be easily exploited.  A mage caught unawares by a rogue is going to have a hard time beating that rogue.  A rogue caught in the open against a prepared mage will die just as easily.

Besides, everyone knows the uber class is shaman.
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2005, 03:12:01 PM »

Mages have the tools to counter a rogue that takes them from stealth. If the rogue doesn't have sprint up (or maybe an item that gives similar), they are dead.
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« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2005, 04:30:33 PM »

Rogues rely on stealth to win.  no stealth = at best even odds for the rogue (must rely on sprint and still quick kill), often, no chance if the other guy is good at pvp.  It all comes down to skill of the player if the rogue is spotted.

Last night i took out a 56 priest, 59 mage, and 60 warrior in a straight up 1 vs 3 fight and spanked all 3 of em at once...does that mean i'm overpowered?  No, just means i was probably slightly better geared and their skill level was probably only slightly higher than LE's.

In serious group pvp, rogues require incredible skill and timing to be effective...all those rogues just being rogues so they can gank real cool like...they're gonna suck in battlegrounds big time.  Only those rogues who are serious about being their character, learning everything about playing their character and have the proper assassin mindset will excell in battlegrounds.  You actually have to be playing the rogue because that character type is the best for you in order to be really good in serious group pvp.  It requires faster thinking, better reaction timing, and constantly thinking several steps further ahead than any other class because of its serious weaknesses and lengthly timers.

As for 1 on 1 ganking, whoever attacks first with surprise normally wins.  Rogues just have a natural advantage in doing so but such is not limited to rogues.  I've been surprised a few times by others while leveling with my rogue and taken down easily even though i'm normally an extremely wary and aware player.
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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2005, 05:04:08 PM »

Quote from: "Fuzzballx"
Last night i took out a 56 priest, 59 mage, and 60 warrior in a straight up 1 vs 3 fight and spanked all 3 of em at once...does that mean i'm overpowered?  No, just means i was probably slightly better geared and their skill level was probably only slightly higher than LE's.

Oh, nice quip at the end, Fuzzy.   :roll:

Get a life.

PS -- I played as a Mage on a PvP server with my brother (who was a Rogue, as I mentioned).  We were extremely powerful--even taking out a 60 Tauren Shaman and his lesser cohorts who were tormenting Booty Bay one day.  Not only did we both have alot of individual skill and an acute knowledge of our abilites, we had an unspoken playbook of traps, baits, and strategies to dominate nearly any situation.

In short, I had quite a bit of skill and knowledge on how to play my classes (Human Mage and later on another PvP server, an Undead Priest).  Saying I'm worse than a trio who should have 'pwnt' you without a scratch but failed to do so due to a lack of ability is just childish.

Go back to IGN or the official WoW forums.  We don't want your kind here.
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