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Author Topic: Would you play a PVP'less MMO?  (Read 2373 times)
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Razgon
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« on: January 21, 2010, 12:03:29 PM »

So, the talks about an Elder Scrolls MMO got  me thinking about PVP in MMO's. Its like every MMO HAS to have PVP in it, and I dont get why?

It takes a ton of resources, and not only in development, but continualling, and all it does is nerf one class over another over the course of years, changing a bit every year. Look at WoW for how it goes - they simply cannot make each class as good as the other without totally equilising them, thereby eleminating class systems.

I for one would LOVE a PVPless MMO - I dont need it, I can have all the pvp I want in other games, but if a game like Elder scrolls could keep its current system in place, i.e. realtime combat, hitboxes and the like with PVP out of the way, I'd most certainly would LOVE it.

As I said in the other thread, one way to keep the classes and still have pvp is to do it like LOTRO does it, by having "Monster PVP", which was pretty great.

What about you, would you play a PVP'less MMO?
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 12:28:53 PM »

I've never played PvP in an MMO.  Why would I want to play with annoying teenagers when I'm a grown man?

/rimshot
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 12:49:25 PM »

But PvPers provide near infinite forum enjoyment! It's some serious, serious stuff.

Actually, I learned to enjoy PvP in WAR and might even take it up in FE if I ever get out of the starter area.

So, no, I probably wouldn't play a game that was exclusively PvE.
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Blackjack
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 01:57:39 PM »

I played a little PvP in City of Heroes, but generally I don't bother in MMOs or even other genres. I've enjoyed lots of friends in PvE, and in co-op games in general. Whacking other players? Not so much.  icon_razz

However, these days, MMO-devs generally consider it financial masochism to release without some form of PvP at launch.
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Razgon
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 02:00:04 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on January 21, 2010, 01:57:39 PM

I played a little PvP in City of Heroes, but generally I don't bother in MMOs or even other genres. I've enjoyed lots of friends in PvE, and in co-op games in general. Whacking other players? Not so much.  icon_razz

However, these days, MMO-devs generally consider it financial masochism to release without some form of PvP at launch.

Indeed -and thats what I dont get- why do they think the vast majority of people want to PVP? I know tons of people who never does, and hardly any who DOES pvp in games.

Like Lonestarspur said, besides BF2, I never pvp'ed before WAR actually, and that got me a bit hooked on it, but I REALLY dont care about it mostly.
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 02:24:36 PM »

I consider lack of PvP a plus in MMORPGs. It means the devs were able to focus their efforts on things that matter more to me as a player.
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 02:28:21 PM »

I'm not a big PvP player (and at 41 I have a slow reaction time), but it makes sense given the nature of MMOs. A social fighting game with thousands/millions of people on it. Why wouldn't you fight each other?

PvP is good to break up the monotony that comes in MMOs. WoWs PvP got too hardcore for me, but I enjoy jumping into Wintergrasp (PvP zone) and being part of a massive PvP army every now and then.
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 03:09:43 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on January 21, 2010, 12:03:29 PM

... thereby eleminating class systems.

...

Bingo.  I think skill based is the way to go in MMOs, not classes.  Lately I've lost interest with PvE that just regurgitates quests to kill N of X, FedEx, escort, gather 10 widgets, etc.  Likewise I have no desire nor the time to spend 3-4 hours a night running places like Molten Core ad nauseam praying for a piece of gear to drop that my class can use.  If it weren't for PvP I'd probably never play another MMO.  Now there is still plenty of room for improving PvP as well.  Fighting over the same ground night after night gets old very quickly, and someone has to find a way to fix PvP being a slide show with more than 20 people in a fight.  But at this point good PvP is what I look for first in a new MMO.
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 03:11:15 PM »

you mean a MMO where PvE doesn't get fucked over by PvP balancing?  I'd play.
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 03:15:13 PM »

I very rarely PvP in any MMOG. I also don't play deathmatch shooter games for the same reason. I think the reason isn't that its PvP, but rather the format of the conflict.

In a deathmatch shooter game you respawn, shoot everything you can, die, respawn again, repeated over and over until some goal is reached. The winner (at least the perceived winner) is determined by kill and death counters. Something has always seemed fundamentally wrong with all that. Maybe its the way it trivializes death. Maybe its the way it glorifies personal acheivement over team achievement.

I would prefer no PvP to that trivial mini-game style PvP. Also, being a collectible card game junkie, I would prefer a well integrated CCG as a means of player competition over traditional PvP. I'm thinking something along the lines of the CCG in KOTOR, but with the strategic depth of MtG.
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 06:15:48 AM »

Okay, despite the fact that I was enslaved by FFXI for almost two years, I'm a noob on MMOs and I need some vocabulary help.  When you say PvP - do you only mean one-on-one, or is fighting against other player's parties considered PvP?

I'm not even quite sure why I drifted into this Forum, lol - because FFXI damned near killed me, so I really shouldn't play another MMO.  Or... maybe just any without PvP, or steep monthly fees - or that require a decent memory, sense of direction, or super-duper-teen-skillz.

Why did I post on this thread?   saywhat
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 07:38:30 AM »

Yes, you can't have both a PVP MMO AND a PVE MMO. Well, unless you make 2 rulesets. This has been blizzard's undoing in both pvp and pve lately. Ever since they introduce pole dancing against another side it has just run pvp into the ground. It's just not even fun anymore. As someone who got 2 different characters up to rank 11 this saddens me. I will take the time to gather a pvp set and shit simply to waste 30 mins a day or whatever. Just pointless and not what pvp is about. pvp is about skill vs skill. not gear vs gear, which is exactly what wow's currently is now. the fact that they have fucked so many pally spells cause of stupid pole dancing is amazing.

i'll gladly take a great pve game as long as it breaks the old mold of 2 tanks 2 healers and rest dps that everyone is doing now. needs more interactive battles imo.
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ydejin
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 07:50:53 AM »

Absolutely.  I've played a lot of LotRO and have never entered the PvP area. 
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Harkonis
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2010, 07:52:40 AM »

I wouldn't.  I played LotR and got bored out of my mind.  I definitely enjoy pvp more than pve in mmos.
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 08:10:41 AM »

Nope.  I enjoy some PVE action but I need the thrill of PVP in my MMO's
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Razgon
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 10:34:09 AM »

Quote from: USMC Kato on February 02, 2010, 08:10:41 AM

Nope.  I enjoy some PVE action but I need the thrill of PVP in my MMO's

Dont you have enough PvP in your normal dayjob? ;-)
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 11:04:14 AM »

I've been playing Darkfall for the past year.

So uhhh...no Tongue
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mytocles
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 11:36:49 AM »

Ummm... PVE?  Is that Player vs. Everyone? Really, I'm in kindergarten on this topic - though I played FFXI obsessively - I don't get most of the MMO lingo, especially from "PC talk" since I played FFXI on the 360 - with a lot of other people in that same boat.

 icon_confused
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Mytocles (MY-toe-cleez)

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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2010, 12:41:55 PM »

City of Heroes had no PvP at launch in 2004. And I was quite content.  icon_smile Nowadays Jack Emmert has said he feels it's not realistic to launch a big MMO that doesn't have some PVP component at launch.

For me it's mostly a social thing. I like to make buddies (however short lived) in MMOs, and I've done that quite often in PvE. Running around in PvP trying to backstab everyone in sight -- no I've never made any buddies doing that.  icon_razz I do appreciate that no MMO AI is as unpredictable or ferocious as the average human player. If I wanted more of a "white knuckle" experience, I'd certainly do more PvP in games.
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2010, 12:51:18 PM »

Quote from: mytocles on February 02, 2010, 11:36:49 AM

Ummm... PVE?  Is that Player vs. Everyone? Really, I'm in kindergarten on this topic - though I played FFXI obsessively - I don't get most of the MMO lingo, especially from "PC talk" since I played FFXI on the 360 - with a lot of other people in that same boat.

 icon_confused

PvE = player vs. environment
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mytocles
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2010, 01:13:51 PM »

Quote from: LoneStarSpur on February 02, 2010, 12:51:18 PM

Quote from: mytocles on February 02, 2010, 11:36:49 AM

Ummm... PVE?  Is that Player vs. Everyone? Really, I'm in kindergarten on this topic - though I played FFXI obsessively - I don't get most of the MMO lingo, especially from "PC talk" since I played FFXI on the 360 - with a lot of other people in that same boat.

 icon_confused

PvE = player vs. environment

Ahh, that makes sense, lol - thanks!   nod
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2010, 03:00:07 PM »

No PVP?  I'd love to play that.
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2010, 06:35:01 PM »

PvP doesn't affect class balance.  A game like Guild Wars is very well balanced (in PvE) and it's mostly PvP.  A game like Everquest 1 which was entirely PvE (on 99% of servers) had balance issues for years and years.

Why bother with a PvE only game when you can attract both demographics and make more money?
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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2010, 06:41:35 PM »

I'd play any MMO as long as it had a good design and gameplay (see my other thread on MMO design).  So while I prefer an MMO to have multiple options, I would certainly play a PVP-less one.
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Razgon
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« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2010, 06:54:40 PM »

Quote from: skystride on February 02, 2010, 06:35:01 PM

PvP doesn't affect class balance.  A game like Guild Wars is very well balanced (in PvE) and it's mostly PvP.  A game like Everquest 1 which was entirely PvE (on 99% of servers) had balance issues for years and years.

Why bother with a PvE only game when you can attract both demographics and make more money?

because so very very few get it right, and it keeps them from focusing entirely on one aspect and get it right.
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2010, 07:19:40 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on February 02, 2010, 06:54:40 PM

Quote from: skystride on February 02, 2010, 06:35:01 PM

PvP doesn't affect class balance.  A game like Guild Wars is very well balanced (in PvE) and it's mostly PvP.  A game like Everquest 1 which was entirely PvE (on 99% of servers) had balance issues for years and years.

Why bother with a PvE only game when you can attract both demographics and make more money?

because so very very few get it right, and it keeps them from focusing entirely on one aspect and get it right.

Get it right by whose standards?  Obviously WoW got it right since it's doing so well.  I don't even like WoW but can anyone deny it's a success story?

PvP is hardly to blame here.  Do you have specific examples where you think PvP caused a MMO to fail?

AoC?  Lots of problems in PvE and they didn't even spend much resources in PvP.  I was in beta and the PvP stuff was thrown in last minute.

Champions?  Again, very little PvP there, most of the problems are in PvE.

I just don't buy the argument that if they dropped the PvP in these games, they would have had a superb PvE game.
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2010, 07:40:35 PM »

Thye might not have a superb game but it wouldn't be any worse and more than likely be better.
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2010, 08:20:26 PM »

Quote from: skystride on February 02, 2010, 06:35:01 PM

PvP doesn't affect class balance.  A game like Guild Wars is very well balanced (in PvE) and it's mostly PvP.  A game like Everquest 1 which was entirely PvE (on 99% of servers) had balance issues for years and years.

Well Guild Wars is not an MMO so it doesn't count.

But regardless, the issues seem to arise when one or the other is "tacked on". When games are built from the ground up as PvE-only, PvP-only, PvE+PvE, etc, they seem to fair rather well in terms of game balance. Yeah, there are always hiccups down the road since 200,000 players can find ways to exploit one type of gameplay mechanics in the other environment, but good devs plan for making changes as needed.
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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2010, 08:31:35 PM »

Quote from: Toe on February 02, 2010, 08:20:26 PM

Quote from: skystride on February 02, 2010, 06:35:01 PM

PvP doesn't affect class balance.  A game like Guild Wars is very well balanced (in PvE) and it's mostly PvP.  A game like Everquest 1 which was entirely PvE (on 99% of servers) had balance issues for years and years.

Well Guild Wars is not an MMO so it doesn't count.

I always found it odd that many people don't like to consider GW an "MMO".  I guess the main game was too instanced but on the other hand in terms of how many different people you could interact with, it's actually more "massive" since you aren't tied to a single server of a few thousand people.  It's a different style of MMO but it's still an MMO in my book.

Anyway, GW was actually a strange case in which the original game was supposed to be PvP-based and balanced around that.  PvE was well balanced because they froze your level and all equipment was geared to not unbalance PvP.  My whole problem with that was PvE felt way too restrictive.  All the items and upgrades you could make felt too superficial in PvE (using Diablo 2 as a comparison).
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2010, 09:34:18 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on February 02, 2010, 08:31:35 PM

I always found it odd that many people don't like to consider GW an "MMO".  I guess the main game was too instanced but on the other hand in terms of how many different people you could interact with, it's actually more "massive" since you aren't tied to a single server of a few thousand people.  It's a different style of MMO but it's still an MMO in my book.

The devs even said that GW has server costs similar to other MMOs.  I guess perhaps a persistent world defines a MMO?  But then that would disqualify Champions Online, Aion and many others because they use instancing.
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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2010, 09:59:06 PM »

In concept PvP in MMO's always looks attractive..but I've rarely had long term fun with it in practice. It's always a seesaw thing. They balance for PvP, put the classes out of whack for PvE...they rubber band back to please the PvE crowd, PvP'ers get their girdles in a knot..........on and on it seems to go.

I would prefer a really out of this World PvE only MMO...
And another PvP exclusive MMO.
Then its my choice, and I'd probably enjoy both more.

It doesn't seem to make for good bedfellows the whole PvP-PvE thing. In game, and In forums............. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2010, 04:52:04 AM »

Quote from: Aganazer on January 21, 2010, 03:15:13 PM

I very rarely PvP in any MMOG. I also don't play deathmatch shooter games for the same reason. I think the reason isn't that its PvP, but rather the format of the conflict.

In a deathmatch shooter game you respawn, shoot everything you can, die, respawn again, repeated over and over until some goal is reached. The winner (at least the perceived winner) is determined by kill and death counters. Something has always seemed fundamentally wrong with all that. Maybe its the way it trivializes death. Maybe its the way it glorifies personal acheivement over team achievement.

I would prefer no PvP to that trivial mini-game style PvP. Also, being a collectible card game junkie, I would prefer a well integrated CCG as a means of player competition over traditional PvP. I'm thinking something along the lines of the CCG in KOTOR, but with the strategic depth of MtG.

EQ2 has what you're looking for.  I tried it out a bit, and the Legends of Norrath card game, which you can play against folks while you are playing EQ2, is pretty solid if you actually take a little time to learn how to play.
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« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2010, 06:56:40 AM »

I admit to having a ton of fun in a non pvp mmo..namely EQ1. But given the choice I will always choose a PVP mmo over non pvp. UO...Im talking old original UO...was and is my all time favorite MMO. Followed by EQ and WoW. I played WoW on a PvP server. I did fine. solo'd all the way to the max of 60 at the time. I had an undead rogue. Most fun ever. I kinda missed the looting ability from old UO but then again it was nice since I was basically alone to not lose my stuff. PVP is what I did when bored. I cant tell you how a PVE only game will bore me to tears after a while.
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« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2010, 08:55:29 AM »

If the PVP can take place on competely different servers/areas, I don't really care if it is in the game.  It just seems like you are more likely to run into the griefer personality if there is PVP involved.  That might also be because I am more sensitive to such people and it doesn't take much to ruin my enjoyment of said game with that kind of personality around.

Some people's fun in games comes from making other people angry/frustrated/annoyed.  It still happens in PVE focused games, but, it isn't as accepted/tolerated.

To be honest, I have quit playing the MP of certain games because of people that cannot help but set things up as much in their own favor as possible, even when playing with 'friends', despite being informed that the majority of other people playing are not having any fun.
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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2010, 04:34:08 PM »

I'm surprised Jarrod doesn't favor PvP considering how good he is at PvP in FPS.  I would think that you would be for PvP considering how much more fun and challenging it can be to take on other players rather than predictable AI?
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« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2010, 06:35:27 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on January 21, 2010, 03:11:15 PM

you mean a MMO where PvE doesn't get fucked over by PvP balancing?  I'd play.

There is a simple yet complicated solution to this, and it doesn't require eliminating either playstyle.  The solution is to eliminate the whole "threat mechanic", and program all npcs to act like humans were playing them.  No longer can the warrior spam two or three skills to get the mobs to "snap back to him".  No longer is the boss going to be fooled by the guy who is shouting at him yet cannot even land a blow that hurts... the boss is going for the damned healer, just like a human would.  The problem with PvE isn't PvP.  The problem with PvE is PvE!!!

Blizzard implemented one encounter in the Argent Crusade dungeon where the mobs were "human npcs".  They were in fact npc members of the opposing faction that your raid had to fight.  The fight had NO threat table at all, and it played out like a PvP free for all.  There was no taunting; you had to root and stun.  Focus fire on the wrong champ, and the pally would sit in the corner and spam flash heals that were impossible to overcome... and then he'd bubble.  I played this encounter on both a PvP server and a PvE server.  As expected on the PvP server, it didn't take much effort to get everyone organized during the fight and it went quite smoothly.  On the PvE server, the fight caused many wipes.

I know why the threat mechanic was originally developed -- it was another mechanic designed to abstract the turn-based nature of early MUDs and MMOs.  With the bandwidth increasing to the point where rounds are shorter, come in quick succession, and player skill can be highlighted, there is no reason to continue with this archaic mechanic.  PvP and PvE can be one single ruleset, and once that happens you can differentiate classes from the same base.
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« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2010, 11:42:55 PM »

One thing that always bothered me in PVE only MMOs were the aholes who were higher lvl than you or your group and would just come over and kill your mobs or your special spawns and there was ZERO you could do about it. That didn't fly in the PVP mmos or servers. When that happened you would either log out and come back with your maxed out guy and wipe them and laugh or get your friends or just yell for help. Someone would always come by to kill aholes. They enjoyed it as much as the aholes enjoyed..well being aholes smile With PVE you just had to sit there and take it or come back another time and hope for the best.
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« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2010, 06:40:09 AM »

I enjoy playing games with friends.  I much prefer Co-op to Vs play the majority of the time.
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« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2010, 01:37:37 PM »

I prefer co-op in everything other than an MMO...shooters and RTS being our favorites. Well used to be years ago anyways before we got all grown up and old and drifted frown smile
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« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2010, 02:16:34 PM »

Quote from: Jarrodhk on February 04, 2010, 06:40:09 AM

I enjoy playing games with friends.  I much prefer Co-op to Vs play the majority of the time.

PvP is usually Co-op.  Gank squads are the best kind of co-op slywink
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