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Author Topic: Star Wars: The Old Republic announced  (Read 131642 times)
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CeeKay
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« Reply #320 on: May 27, 2010, 11:32:03 PM »

on companions, and no, they're not the whores from Firefly  icon_twisted
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« Reply #321 on: May 28, 2010, 02:01:20 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on May 27, 2010, 11:32:03 PM

on companions, and no, they're not the whores from Firefly  icon_twisted

these are NPCs?...so,you could play The Old Republic like one massive single player game?
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« Reply #322 on: May 28, 2010, 11:31:30 AM »

Quote from: metallicorphan on May 28, 2010, 02:01:20 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on May 27, 2010, 11:32:03 PM

on companions, and no, they're not the whores from Firefly  icon_twisted

these are NPCs?...so,you could play The Old Republic like one massive single player game?
I would just think "pets," but with a little more meaning in how you treat/reward them. Some little R2-D2 droid (I think that's just one kind of companion) isn't going to remove the desire to team up with other players imho. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they're trying to do Gods & Heroes.
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« Reply #323 on: May 28, 2010, 12:36:53 PM »

I love this idea on a companion. Very cool. Best part is I can give them old looted guns and items I don't need that they can use. As long as those items show up on their person that is. I always loved giving my earth pet in EQ a set of summoned daggers. That thing was badass with them.

This is my must have MMO. Only sticking to STO till this. I bet I play this as much as I did WoW. And I loved WoW. Can't wait!!!!!!

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« Reply #324 on: May 28, 2010, 02:17:27 PM »

Quote from: metallicorphan on May 28, 2010, 02:01:20 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on May 27, 2010, 11:32:03 PM

on companions, and no, they're not the whores from Firefly  icon_twisted

these are NPCs?...so,you could play The Old Republic like one massive single player game?

I think they said it will be very solo friendly.
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« Reply #325 on: May 28, 2010, 06:55:37 PM »

the usual Friday update
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« Reply #326 on: May 29, 2010, 03:57:32 AM »

It really seems to me that this game is going to be more like a single player game that just happens to have other people around at times. You never hear anything about how it utilizes the MMO aspect of the game. Are there going to be guild wars? Raids? If so how big can a group be?
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« Reply #327 on: May 30, 2010, 01:13:52 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on May 29, 2010, 03:57:32 AM

It really seems to me that this game is going to be more like a single player game that just happens to have other people around at times. You never hear anything about how it utilizes the MMO aspect of the game. Are there going to be guild wars? Raids? If so how big can a group be?
The tricky thing always seems to be rewarding players for grouping without requiring it to progress.

I mean, I like that LOTRO has a dedicated LFG channel and at all hours of the day pretty much, you'll see players on a given server begging for someone to team up with them. But there are plenty who don't like that, and don't want to have to be frantically hawking themselves or begging for help because they have all this content they can't do without assistance.

For better or worse, most of the marketing on SWTOR is focused on how you'll be able to do a lot of stuff solo, and isn't that great. I do tend to think "Well, if you're making this game so solo-able, why is it an MMO at all? Why not just make it like a Mass Effect Star Wars game and shove a lot of DLC at everyone after launch?"  Some interviews have talked about group content in the vaguest terms, sort of "Oh yeah, we'll have guilds and group content and PVP and blah blah blah," but it sounds like we'll just have to wait and see on that. I'm hopeful, and I think there's a lot more to show that Bioware is holding back until closer to beta launch.
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« Reply #328 on: May 30, 2010, 11:53:52 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on May 30, 2010, 01:13:52 PM

I do tend to think "Well, if you're making this game so solo-able, why is it an MMO at all? Why not just make it like a Mass Effect Star Wars game and shove a lot of DLC at everyone after launch?"
I see your point, but I think for many (or at least for me) playing an MMOG is about the community aspect more than the gameplay. It's about being able to socialize when you want to, and seeing hundreds of players in your travels that you don't have to team with, but can if you feel like it.

To sum it up, I think I play MMORPGs because they have living NPCs. I wish the games had the depth of single-player RPGs. But these days, those just feel so empty to me.
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« Reply #329 on: May 31, 2010, 07:26:43 AM »

Quote from: Blackjack on May 30, 2010, 01:13:52 PM

Quote from: cheeba on May 29, 2010, 03:57:32 AM

It really seems to me that this game is going to be more like a single player game that just happens to have other people around at times. You never hear anything about how it utilizes the MMO aspect of the game. Are there going to be guild wars? Raids? If so how big can a group be?
The tricky thing always seems to be rewarding players for grouping without requiring it to progress.

I mean, I like that LOTRO has a dedicated LFG channel and at all hours of the day pretty much, you'll see players on a given server begging for someone to team up with them. But there are plenty who don't like that, and don't want to have to be frantically hawking themselves or begging for help because they have all this content they can't do without assistance.

I think WoW has proven the best way to do it.  Anyone care to disagree?

Basically it's very simple... all players should be able to easily solo to the max level strictly by questing.  But in order to get the best loot, you need to do group content (instances/raids/pvp in WoW's case).  What's so hard about that?  I don't think anyone can argue against that.
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« Reply #330 on: May 31, 2010, 08:05:25 AM »

Quote from: KePoW on May 31, 2010, 07:26:43 AM

I think WoW has proven the best way to do it.  Anyone care to disagree?

Basically it's very simple... all players should be able to easily solo to the max level strictly by questing.  But in order to get the best loot, you need to do group content (instances/raids/pvp in WoW's case).  What's so hard about that?  I don't think anyone can argue against that.

I can! slywink

I don't think your statements are necessarily true. I think MMO's are still in their infancy and not fertile grounds for innovation, so I can easily see a clever developer devising a way in which grouping becomes necessary, not painful, and even fun. I'm thinking of Star Wars Galaxies (early, non-suck years) where it was necessary to go to cantinas and watch/listen to entertainers, though that wasn't really grouping. Still, it was forced interaction with other players and it created a social aspect to the game that WoW couldn't match.
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« Reply #331 on: May 31, 2010, 08:45:33 AM »

Quote from: KePoW on May 31, 2010, 07:26:43 AM

Quote from: Blackjack on May 30, 2010, 01:13:52 PM

Quote from: cheeba on May 29, 2010, 03:57:32 AM

It really seems to me that this game is going to be more like a single player game that just happens to have other people around at times. You never hear anything about how it utilizes the MMO aspect of the game. Are there going to be guild wars? Raids? If so how big can a group be?
The tricky thing always seems to be rewarding players for grouping without requiring it to progress.

I mean, I like that LOTRO has a dedicated LFG channel and at all hours of the day pretty much, you'll see players on a given server begging for someone to team up with them. But there are plenty who don't like that, and don't want to have to be frantically hawking themselves or begging for help because they have all this content they can't do without assistance.

I think WoW has proven the best way to do it.  Anyone care to disagree?

Basically it's very simple... all players should be able to easily solo to the max level strictly by questing.  But in order to get the best loot, you need to do group content (instances/raids/pvp in WoW's case).  What's so hard about that?  I don't think anyone can argue against that.

Yes, we can argue against that. Look at how LOTRO did things before any of the expansions (they've sort of ruined the concept since). You could get the big loot through several ways:

- Playing through the main story quests, which rewarded pretty awesome equipment.
- Crafting (some of the best equipment in the game was craftable)
- Raiding

There was a slight advantage given to raid equipment, but it was so small that you always had a choice in what to use depending on things like looks and playstyle. The game easily disproved the WoW-notion that awesome equipment needs to be a reward for increasingly difficult group content. In fact, LOTRO started implementing WoW-like systems with equipment gating for high-level instances in the expansions, and the players mostly hated it. They're not likely to try that again.
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« Reply #332 on: May 31, 2010, 11:20:54 AM »

Tilt, how does that answer Blackjack's question though?

We were talking about coming up with good ideas and reasons *for* grouping.  Your LotRO examples (main story quests and crafting) all encourage soloing.

This is just my opinion... but any MMO that allows you to get the best rewards by soloing just seems like a stupid MMO to me.  Goes back to this Star Wars discussion about worrying that it just seems to be a single-player type game.  That would be a BAD thing, not good.
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« Reply #333 on: May 31, 2010, 11:25:14 AM »

Besides, using LotRO as an example doesn't seem to support your case... considering the fact that it's not one of the hugely successful MMOs.  So why would you argue that they are doing things correctly?

I mean sure, there's always going to be the minority of gamers who like a specific game and think it's perfect.  But that doesn't mean it's the right way to design a game.  Let me put it this way... if Star Wars only achieves the subscription numbers of LotRO, then Bioware/EA will deem the game to be a massive failure.
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« Reply #334 on: May 31, 2010, 01:57:38 PM »

Quote from: KePoW on May 31, 2010, 11:25:14 AM

Besides, using LotRO as an example doesn't seem to support your case... considering the fact that it's not one of the hugely successful MMOs.  So why would you argue that they are doing things correctly?

I mean sure, there's always going to be the minority of gamers who like a specific game and think it's perfect.  But that doesn't mean it's the right way to design a game.  Let me put it this way... if Star Wars only achieves the subscription numbers of LotRO, then Bioware/EA will deem the game to be a massive failure.

I don't think Bioware/EA would consider 300k+ active subscribers a massive failure.  LOTRO is a great game to compare since it's usually placed second in the top 3 of paid MMOs and has been critically acclaimed for a couple years in a row.  Unless The Old Republic is spectacular it will go just like a certain "other" Star Wars game with a huge influx of new players quickly falling to second place when it's not a WoW killer the fanboys think it is.  I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt being Bioware that it will be good enough to probably take over second place but it would be surprising if they had 500k active after six months.  The only way to huge numbers is to capture the Asian market and Star Wars is not the game to do that.
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« Reply #335 on: May 31, 2010, 05:28:17 PM »

Quote from: ericb on May 31, 2010, 01:57:38 PM

Quote from: KePoW on May 31, 2010, 11:25:14 AM

Besides, using LotRO as an example doesn't seem to support your case... considering the fact that it's not one of the hugely successful MMOs.  So why would you argue that they are doing things correctly?

I mean sure, there's always going to be the minority of gamers who like a specific game and think it's perfect.  But that doesn't mean it's the right way to design a game.  Let me put it this way... if Star Wars only achieves the subscription numbers of LotRO, then Bioware/EA will deem the game to be a massive failure.

I don't think Bioware/EA would consider 300k+ active subscribers a massive failure.

I'm pretty sure this is not true.  Don't have any links, but I remember reading an article or interview a while ago where Bioware/EA said that their goal was 1-2M subs.  I believe something was even mentioned about 1M being the point where they would just break even on development costs.

I don't recall the length of time they planned on having those numbers of subs, but I think the point was clearly made that anything less than 1M would be a failure.
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« Reply #336 on: May 31, 2010, 06:09:47 PM »

I can pretty much skip this whole page. To me I don't care . I think ToR will be fun and I plan to be there day one no matter what. I don't care if it's a WoW killer or not. I'm done with WoW. I want a Sci-Fi MMO and they are giving it to me. It's all I want in a MMO right now. My MMO tastes have changed over the years and I think they will continue to change. I'm happy for new MMOs and new ways to make them. I'm just glad someone is making this. But I'm overjoyed that it is Bioware doing it. I trust them without doubts.

Looking forward to this more than anything.
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« Reply #337 on: May 31, 2010, 06:21:22 PM »

if this game can be done totally solo with the option of doing some co-op stuff or a marketplace I'll be really happy.
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« Reply #338 on: May 31, 2010, 06:35:53 PM »

Group content doesn't have to be about getting better loot.  I enjoy doing group stuff for the challenge and the teamwork involved.  Uber loot from grouping can actually be a bad thing because it creates a divide between casual/solo players and hardcore/group-oriented players.  When that mostly solo guy feels like grouping, he is viewed as a liability because of his crappy gear.
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« Reply #339 on: May 31, 2010, 06:44:02 PM »

Quote from: KePoW on May 31, 2010, 05:28:17 PM

Quote from: ericb on May 31, 2010, 01:57:38 PM

Quote from: KePoW on May 31, 2010, 11:25:14 AM

Besides, using LotRO as an example doesn't seem to support your case... considering the fact that it's not one of the hugely successful MMOs.  So why would you argue that they are doing things correctly?

I mean sure, there's always going to be the minority of gamers who like a specific game and think it's perfect.  But that doesn't mean it's the right way to design a game.  Let me put it this way... if Star Wars only achieves the subscription numbers of LotRO, then Bioware/EA will deem the game to be a massive failure.

I don't think Bioware/EA would consider 300k+ active subscribers a massive failure.

I'm pretty sure this is not true.  Don't have any links, but I remember reading an article or interview a while ago where Bioware/EA said that their goal was 1-2M subs.  I believe something was even mentioned about 1M being the point where they would just break even on development costs.

I don't recall the length of time they planned on having those numbers of subs, but I think the point was clearly made that anything less than 1M would be a failure.

I agree with you here.  LOTRO at a few hundred thousand subs is a success for that game, but I think Bioware is aiming much higher and expects over a million subs. 
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« Reply #340 on: May 31, 2010, 06:58:01 PM »

I do want custom armors and clothing. By that I mean maybe mix n match pieces and dyes. And i don't want dyes that are all drab light colors or different shades of brown. Those are useless. I want UO style dyes. True colors.
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« Reply #341 on: May 31, 2010, 06:58:36 PM »

Quote from: skystride on May 31, 2010, 06:35:53 PM

Group content doesn't have to be about getting better loot.  I enjoy doing group stuff for the challenge and the teamwork involved.  Uber loot from grouping can actually be a bad thing because it creates a divide between casual/solo players and hardcore/group-oriented players.  When that mostly solo guy feels like grouping, he is viewed as a liability because of his crappy gear.

we must form the Solo Guild, for Solo Group outings!
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« Reply #342 on: June 01, 2010, 10:23:44 AM »

Quote from: KePoW on May 31, 2010, 11:20:54 AM

We were talking about coming up with good ideas and reasons *for* grouping.

I played some WoW, some AoC and most of all LOTRO. Never that long, at most 3 or 4 months. The reasons I quit was mostly because grouping, while fun, was very hard to achieve.
I always thought I was a solo-player, but I'm wrong. These games are too boring to be played solo, and I enjoyed them the most when in a group (with adults!). Sure, some parts are better when you solo, but these are parts that are mostly 'fluff'. For instance enjoying the scenery, reading a well-written quest, browsing items to buy / sell... But that's just filling, the core of an MMO are it's quests, and often they can be reduced to 'kill X critters', which becomes fun when you interact with other players.

So, for me it's simple: make grouping INFINITELY easy to do, and reward it heavily. How? Keep it 'gamey'. Show which people are doing the quests you want to do, and make joining them as simple as clicking a button which instantly zaps you towards them. And make it so that people are encouraged to help others, by giving them some loot and experience as well, even if you don't have the quest. Often I'd post on LFG that I was ready for hire (read: for free), so if anyone needed help they could PM me. I almost never got a reaction.
Also, organise your quests so that anyone can jump in at any time, and that downtime is reduced to a minimum.

Basically, treat your quests and grouping options the same as a multiplayer lobby.

I like roleplay as much as the next guy, but it has to go when it comes to easy grouping.
PS Sorry if I hijacked the thread here.
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« Reply #343 on: June 01, 2010, 03:08:28 PM »

LFG channles are so antiquated.  I like Warhammer's system, you can join any open group or raid party by just looking at a list and hitting join.  Why it took MMO developers this long to think of this, I have no idea.
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« Reply #344 on: June 01, 2010, 03:43:20 PM »

I think my biggest complaint on grouping is that there are so many players who just want to rush rush through quests. I don't like to rush and I HATE other people telling me to do it. I like to enjoy a quest if I have not yet done it. Then there are those who do spawns over and over for loot and exp. Don't like those either. And third is the worst kind of player...The one who knows it all and gripes at you if you don't use soNso buff/anility at soNso time and someone loses 10 health or the item doesn't spawn. Must be your fault. Aholes.
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« Reply #345 on: June 01, 2010, 03:44:59 PM »

Quote from: skystride on June 01, 2010, 03:08:28 PM

LFG channles are so antiquated.  I like Warhammer's system, you can join any open group or raid party by just looking at a list and hitting join.  Why it took MMO developers this long to think of this, I have no idea.

plus the public quests were a great idea too.
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« Reply #346 on: June 01, 2010, 04:02:04 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 01, 2010, 03:44:59 PM

Quote from: skystride on June 01, 2010, 03:08:28 PM

LFG channles are so antiquated.  I like Warhammer's system, you can join any open group or raid party by just looking at a list and hitting join.  Why it took MMO developers this long to think of this, I have no idea.

plus the public quests were a great idea too.
I thought I'd like STO's similar public quest system or Champions for that matter. But is it really fun to group with people randomly, and then have them immediately run off after the mission? It's useful as a cheap mechanic to get people through quests they can't solo, but as far as encouraging groups or socializing, it's useless imho.

The other point of an LFG channel is to have a little frickin' (you can tell this is an issue with me cause I never say frickin' around here) organization to chat channels instead of 10,000 people gabbing disorganized garbage in one screwed up general chat channel. That's part of the reason I've quit MMOs for now. I don't need chat channels that make me feel like an air traffic controller because I have to parse so much lightspeed-scrolling junk.

At least in an LFG channel you can specifically look for people who want to team for a bit.
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« Reply #347 on: June 01, 2010, 04:47:56 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 01, 2010, 03:44:59 PM

Quote from: skystride on June 01, 2010, 03:08:28 PM

LFG channles are so antiquated.  I like Warhammer's system, you can join any open group or raid party by just looking at a list and hitting join.  Why it took MMO developers this long to think of this, I have no idea.

plus the public quests were a great idea too.

...as long as people are in the zone...otherwise it's kind of hard to complete them when no one is around. 

 icon_wink
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« Reply #348 on: June 01, 2010, 04:48:06 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on June 01, 2010, 04:02:04 PM

I thought I'd like STO's similar public quest system or Champions for that matter. But is it really fun to group with people randomly, and then have them immediately run off after the mission? It's useful as a cheap mechanic to get people through quests they can't solo, but as far as encouraging groups or socializing, it's useless imho.

That wasn't my experience in Warhammer.  If you joined a PQ group and it worked out well people usually wanted to stick together.  Someone invariably mentions at the end, "anyone want to do X?".  But I don't remember CO and STO having open groups, I could be wrong.
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« Reply #349 on: June 01, 2010, 04:49:31 PM »

Quote from: skystride on June 01, 2010, 04:48:06 PM

Quote from: Blackjack on June 01, 2010, 04:02:04 PM

I thought I'd like STO's similar public quest system or Champions for that matter. But is it really fun to group with people randomly, and then have them immediately run off after the mission? It's useful as a cheap mechanic to get people through quests they can't solo, but as far as encouraging groups or socializing, it's useless imho.

That wasn't my experience in Warhammer.  If you joined a PQ group and it worked out well people usually wanted to stick together.  Someone invariably mentions at the end, "anyone want to do X?".  But I don't remember CO and STO having open groups, I could be wrong.

That was my experience as well.  WAR had a useful tool to group and then invariably you'd go do some quests or some public PvP with that same group if you wanted to. 
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« Reply #350 on: June 01, 2010, 05:06:19 PM »

Bill Roper Says Champions Online Borrowed [Public] Quest System From Warhammer Online
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3173533

STO

http://radiofreetomorrow.org/2010/01/19/star-trek-online-open-beta-impressions/
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Another way this game will stand out amongst MMOs is the way it handles group action. By default, all players are set up to auto-join ad hoc teams. What this means is that, if you’re flying solo, and enter a system at roughly the same time as other players, you will be automatically teamed up with them.

As currently implemented, this leaves itself open to some abuse. As the latecomer to a party, you could choose to just sit back and let your “teammates” take all the punishment while you reap the benefits, since all quest goals are immediately shared4.
Jog your memory?  icon_smile

I didn't find STO's "open teaming/ad hoc teams" feature well explained. Lots and lots of players had no idea the feature was even there, or they'd break away from teams because they thought it was a bug, etc. Not sure if it's changed over time. I just haven't found any of these gimmicks cure-alls vs. simpler means of encouraging people that wanna team to find each other and communicate.

No idea what to expect in SWTOR since Bioware hasn't done an MMO before. But given how much of the dev team consists of former devs for other MMOs (I think I read they have a few former SOE devs), and that Mythic (Warhammer) is now under the EA Umbrella with Bioware, I'd think copying Warhammer's system is a safe bet. It's too bad Mythic couldn't find a way to patent that system.  icon_smile
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« Reply #351 on: June 01, 2010, 05:13:14 PM »

I'm more curious to hear about instancing (or lack thereof). Tabula Rasa had a few key instances (some of them very fun), but mostly it was players all running around in the same environs, often on top of each other. In the open beta and launch phases (when it had a lot of players), you'd literally see sometimes dozens of people queing up and waiting in line to finish a certain key mission objective.

OTOH, it was often gratifying to feel part of a huge battle, be surrounded by other players etc. I don't have a magic answer for how to get that feel, without subjecting players to waiting lines for quests or "quest stealing" where someone else takes your quest objective before you get a chance to. I'd like to think there's some imaginative content designer at Bioware who would have a magic fix for that.
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« Reply #352 on: June 11, 2010, 05:04:35 PM »

the Jedi Civil War.  of course we've all heard about it, but not with Lance Henriksen narrating it.
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« Reply #353 on: June 12, 2010, 01:06:10 AM »

I think the story of Revan is one of the best Star Wars stories. I'd like to hear more of it. Better yet play more of it.
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« Reply #354 on: June 12, 2010, 01:32:55 AM »

hopefully next week will be a bonanza of info.
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« Reply #355 on: June 13, 2010, 07:21:18 PM »

dang, I want to play this now, as in today.   crybaby
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« Reply #356 on: June 13, 2010, 11:52:02 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 12, 2010, 01:32:55 AM

hopefully next week will be a bonanza of info.

Gamespot has a fairly lengthy article with early game walk throughs of 6 of the 8 character classes.  Warning: in the article there was one early game spoiler related to the Bounty Hunter that I wish I hadn't read.
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« Reply #357 on: June 14, 2010, 06:19:26 PM »

Their big E3 reveals happen at 7pm EST. Got a softball game to go to at 6pm frown.
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« Reply #358 on: June 14, 2010, 06:26:05 PM »

I always liked the idea of scaling missions to the party size, thereby always making them challenging.  Of course, I'm not sure how this is done if not instanced; and I don't know where Bioware stands on instancing.  Personally, I walk the fence on the idea of instancing in MMO's.  I feel it has strong positives and negatives to it.  With ToR being so heavily story-driven, I am very curious how Bioware is going to work it all out.  Is their goal to make "KOTOR 3 MMO-Style" - or something drastically different?

Through trial and error, World of Warcraft has found a way to (for the most part) keep their base of players content.  This includes LOTS of solo'ers, and probably quite a few raiders, with some people falling in between.  Surely Bioware and LucasArts can steal that magic somehow - one would think.

The industry has been waiting (and proclaiming) the heir-apparent to WoW for some time now.  I would say ToR has as good a chance as any to be that MMO.  I know from the very little they have shown so far (the 20 minute gameplay video comes to mind) - I would be in it for the long haul if the story keeps me engaged.

This is probably my most anticipated title in years.  I hope they knock it out of the park.   
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« Reply #359 on: June 14, 2010, 10:34:01 PM »

I'm not convinced there'll be "another WoW," any more than I'm convinced another isometric hack'n'slash will ever have Diablo and Diablo II-size numbers outside of Diablo III. Maybe WoW's just a one-time aberration that was in the MMO market at the perfect time. Maybe Blizzard has some mystical mojo that makes them addicted, and makes them spurn any other competitors' products.

For better or worse, it's like comfort food for most fans. They're willing to jump away and try other things, but it seems like very few feel like they can give it up for good.
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