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Author Topic: Sony opens MMO Twink-o-Matic  (Read 5536 times)
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Knightshade Dragon
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« on: April 20, 2005, 12:21:09 PM »

In a nice slap to all the people they have banned for EBay'ing their characters, Sony has opened up a little auction house of their own.  

http://stationexchange.station.sony.com/

Here is the hook:

Q: Will I now own EverQuest II characters, items and/or coin?

A: No.  The User Agreement and Software License, to which you agreed when you installed the game and to which you agree every time you launch the game, makes it clear that you have no ownership rights in characters, items and coin -- what you have is the right to use them in accordance with the license agreement, the rules of conduct of the game, and SOE's terms of service.  When SOE launches Station Exchange, SOE will permit you to "sell" and "buy" that right to use characters, items and coin.  In "lawyerese," you will be buying and/or selling a limited license right, not an ownership right.

So you get to PAY for it...but not own it. smile
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2005, 12:29:38 PM »

In other words "We're tired of IGE and Ebay making the money from this.  We want it under our own roof, dammit."
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Arkon
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2005, 01:23:46 PM »

In a way I don't have a problem with this... no matter how hard they try they won't be able to stop IGE/Ebay, so offer it yourself.
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2005, 02:13:54 PM »

IMHO...It's about time they smartened up and started doing this themselves...and not punishing people for it.
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Raven
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2005, 03:35:58 PM »

Just another reason to despise SOE.
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2005, 03:47:33 PM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
In a way I don't have a problem with this... no matter how hard they try they won't be able to stop IGE/Ebay, so offer it yourself.
That's basically my feelings on it too.

People are going to buy items/currency/characters in these games whether you like it or not.  SoE is very wise to attempt to capture the market rather than make it illegal.

If you're really super-de-dooper opposed to the idea, there are always servers that won't have these kinds of real-money auctions up.  That way you can at least make believe like it's not happening on your server.

MMORPGs aren't virtual worlds anymore.  They're virtual exercises in keeping up with the Joneses.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2005, 06:26:56 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
Just another reason to despise SOE.


Why exactly?  

They polled they're customer base and found the majority do not care about the issue(selling of items/toons/$ is different then the 'farming' issue).  However they did find that 40% of they're customer service was dealing with deals gone bad.  So the Assholes at SOE did the unthinkable ....they listened to their player base and are giving them the OPTION of playing on servers where this kinda activity is monitored by them.  Choice is good.

If anything this will help the economies of those servers wheres this will not be condoned as the sellers/farmers will naturally flock to where their cutomer base is o nthe new servers.
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2005, 12:48:51 AM »

First of all, I don't trust anything SOE says. Their internal polling means nothing to me. Second, this legitimizes an activity that is bad for the game.

And since when did SOE give a shit what their players think. SOE bean counters just want a slice of the pie, when they should have been cracking down on this behavior years ago.  

Why is this activity bad for the game? I would think the reasons are obvious.

There has always been friction between people who play for fun, and people who play because it's their job. This will only increase that friction. Unless every single encounter is instanced, you've now created a situation where players have to compete with professional campers, and unlike the past, the players can no longer count on having the upper hand when CS handles the dispute.
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2005, 01:11:21 AM »

Quote
And since when did SOE give a shit what their players think. SOE bean counters just want a slice of the pie, when they should have been cracking down on this behavior years ago.



 :roll:

Oh please, Raven. SOE has done nothing but proven (with EQ2 atleast) that they LISTEN to players and support their games. Updates, content patches, communication with their playerbase. I am not seeing what you see.

Yes, with EQ it was bad. However that has changed and so far I am happy with SOE and EQ2.
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2005, 02:46:26 AM »

Quote
Oh please, Raven. SOE has done nothing but proven (with EQ2 atleast) that they LISTEN to players and support their games. Updates, content patches, communication with their playerbase. I am not seeing what you see.


Yes, because Blizzard was breathing down their neck. Everything SOE does is
transparent.

SOE is losing market share, and the bean counters think this new policy will make up for that.
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2005, 02:53:13 AM »

Quote from: "Sparhawk"
Quote
And since when did SOE give a shit what their players think. SOE bean counters just want a slice of the pie, when they should have been cracking down on this behavior years ago.



 :roll:

Oh please, Raven. SOE has done nothing but proven (with EQ2 atleast) that they LISTEN to players and support their games. Updates, content patches, communication with their playerbase. I am not seeing what you see.

Yes, with EQ it was bad. However that has changed and so far I am happy with SOE and EQ2.
Don't waste your words on SoE haters.  They're worse than fanboys.
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2005, 03:30:58 AM »

You ever wonder why so many people hate SOE? There are valid reasons, you know. No game company has worked harder to alienate their customer base than they have.
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zinckiwi
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2005, 04:07:11 AM »

Yes. I can see it now.

SOE Exec 1: Fred, we're making too much money. What to do?

SOE Exec 2: Hmm. That's a pickle. Let's alienate some customers.

SOE Exec 1: Awesome. Awesome to the max.

 :roll:
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2005, 04:52:39 AM »

I'm not sure what your point is, other than to be sarcastic. Have you ever played EQ or have any experience with SOE? We are talking about a company where one executive famously said:

Quote
"When asked if he takes into account consumer input Flock is dismissive, relying instead on the expertise of his staff. 'No, we never talk to consumers - they just f--- us up. Someone asked for a copy of our market research which made us take the decision to do EverQuest. I said we hadn't done any market research. Had we done, the game would never have been made. We never focus on them. Gamers don't know what they want. We just want to know if they have a valid credit card.'"
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2005, 07:23:53 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
I'm not sure what your point is, other than to be sarcastic. Have you ever played EQ or have any experience with SOE? We are talking about a company where one executive famously said:

Quote
"When asked if he takes into account consumer input Flock is dismissive, relying instead on the expertise of his staff. 'No, we never talk to consumers - they just f--- us up. Someone asked for a copy of our market research which made us take the decision to do EverQuest. I said we hadn't done any market research. Had we done, the game would never have been made. We never focus on them. Gamers don't know what they want. We just want to know if they have a valid credit card.'"
k, that quote's from Verant, who made Everquest.  SoE did not make Everquest.
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Raven
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2005, 10:30:32 AM »

Google "history of verant" if you don't believe me.
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zinckiwi
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2005, 11:31:06 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
I'm not sure what your point is, other than to be sarcastic. Have you ever played EQ or have any experience with SOE? We are talking about a company where one executive famously said:

Quote
"When asked if he takes into account consumer input Flock is dismissive, relying instead on the expertise of his staff. 'No, we never talk to consumers - they just f--- us up. Someone asked for a copy of our market research which made us take the decision to do EverQuest. I said we hadn't done any market research. Had we done, the game would never have been made. We never focus on them. Gamers don't know what they want. We just want to know if they have a valid credit card.'"


Yup, played EQ for a couple of years and had no negative customer experiences. My point is, YMMV. People bitch more than they praise. For every person with a legitimate gripe, twenty are just fine. For every dumb employee who says something like the contents of your quote, twenty are just fine.
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Raven
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2005, 12:57:05 PM »

He was an executive.
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2005, 01:06:20 PM »

I don't think it's that dumb really. Sure, he's a little blunt, but there's truth in what he's saying. Just look at these boards, full of gamers. They're also full of contradictions. (Just look at these WoW-threads smile )

Some serious research goes into the process of making a game, and you can't possibly include everything gamers want. You'd never finish your game! Even including one suggestion made by gamers, which may seem like the perfect solution to a problem, may not be doable due to technical limitations or some such...

I love it when people yell to make the game lag-free! Hey, now there's an idea! I'm sure they haven't thought of that! And what are you gonna do, cancel your subscription because it isn't? Some will, some won't I guess... But you are right, all the negative parts get blown out of proportion on gaming boards, and some healthy discussion is great. But really, don't expect developers to listen too much to gamers... They have smart guys working in their company already. Every skill, every stat... it's all been put through thousands of exel-sheets I'm sure.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2005, 01:30:30 PM »

Quote
But really, don't expect developers to listen too much to gamers... They have smart guys working in their company already.


Blizzard listened to their fans, and backed it up by having an open beta, with no NDA, while SOE was very secretive about the development of EQ2.

Today WOW has 1.5 million subscribers. How many does EQ2 have again?

The truth is that SOE knows how to milk the EQ franchise for cash, but hasn't produced anything interesting or good in years. Unless you call SWG, EQ2, or the last half dozen EQ expansions good. SOE is an arrogant company and the fruits of that arrogance have been the totally underwhelming SWG and EQ2, both of which have fallen way below expectations.

No one takes anything SOE says with a straight face, or no one that I know, at least.

And their answer to declining revenue is to sanction eBay farmers, so they can profit from it. This, of course, is much easier than actually addressing the root cause of their declining sales and popularity, which is their arrogance and greed.

It's a nasty cycle they've gotten themselves into. The greedier they are, the more customers they lose, and then they panic and try to milk the remaining customers, to make up for those they have lost, and then the cycle repeats itself.

Or you can actually believe that SOE limited EQ2 subscribers to four characters per account, because storage space is too expensive.

If you want to drink the SOE Kool Aid, that's your business, but declining sales and subscriptions indicate that fewer and fewer people like the taste anymore.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2005, 02:45:29 PM »

One thing you need to mention though, if you're going to compare EQ2 and WoW is patching in new content.  EQ2 has had at least six patches since launch.  WoW has had ... two?  Three?  They're getting better, to be sure (at least I hope they are), but they were really dragging there for a good while.
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2005, 02:51:40 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"


Blizzard listened to their fans, and backed it up by having an open beta, with no NDA, while SOE was very secretive about the development of EQ2.


If you want to drink the SOE Kool Aid, that's your business, but declining sales and subscriptions indicate that fewer and fewer people like the taste anymore.


Talk about drinking Koolaid  :roll:
I have yet to hear one person say they are happy with Blizzards pathetic attempt at community service.
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2005, 03:32:16 PM »

It's silly to compare server crashes and lag to character auctions. One comes from inexperience and the other comes from greed.
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2005, 05:40:53 PM »

i gotta tell you i'm always shocked when i read complaints about how these companies treat their customers.  i guess i'm just one of the lucky ones who slipped through the cracks and has never experienced all these horror stories about EQ, EQ2, DAoC, or other mmorpgs and their customer service.  i played EQ off and on for several years along with some buddies and we never had anything but pleasant experiences.  the same for DAoC and others.  i realize people do have legitimate problems but i honestly think they are minimal compared to those who have nothing but positive ones.  i constantly read about EQ or DAoC customer service being evil and such and i honestly just laugh.  i've always felt most people quit playing these particular games not because of customer service but they just get over the gameplay itself.
my $.02 anyways which probably noone will agree with and i'd be fine with anyhow.
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2005, 05:49:03 PM »

Quote from: "Zarkon"
One thing you need to mention though, if you're going to compare EQ2 and WoW is patching in new content.  EQ2 has had at least six patches since launch.  WoW has had ... two?  Three?  They're getting better, to be sure (at least I hope they are), but they were really dragging there for a good while.


I don't think they were dragging for a company's first MMOL game. I have yet to see any company's first MMOL game crank out content as fast as Blizzard has. Most seem to wait a year or so to let things "simmer".  Blizzard's main problem has been not having a grueling level grind to keep customers away from "end game" long enough for them to flesh it all out ala EQ1, DaoC, SWG, etc.
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2005, 06:13:46 PM »

Well, back to the mechanics of what's being instituted.  My biggest concern is relating to how it will affect the online trading market if people start taking more of their items to the offline auction houses.  This also goes for those "campers" who used to sell the items they got online for gold.  Now they may leave those servers where they used to have a big impact on the online market in order to have an opportunity to earn real world money for their items.  We'll have to see how it shakes down, but I'm guessing those new servers will be an interesting place.
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2005, 06:20:00 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
Blizzard listened to their fans, and backed it up by having an open beta, with no NDA, while SOE was very secretive about the development of EQ2.

Irrelevant, for two reasons:

-Blizzard ignored player opinions on game issues in the open beta.  I'm going to be brutally honest with you here:  the 'open beta' was an advertisial demo.  That's all.

-SoE had nothing to hide.  There are plenty of people out there really enjoying EQ2.  Believe it or not, closed betas with NDAs are actually the standard of the industry.

Finally, you're either crazy or just flat-out stupid if you think that Blizzard listens to a damn thing their players have to say about WoW.  They.  Don't.  Care.  They have 'THE VISION' worse than Verant did.

SoE, on the other hand, really listens to EQ2 players, makes an effort to patch frequently, releases new content regularly, and, quite frankly, is kicking Blizzard's ass in terms of customer service, communication, and relations.  You say this is 'transparent' because SoE is trying to one-up Blizzard.  I say, what the fuck does it matter?  SoE is treating their customers MUCH better than Blizzard is.

Look, Raven, you can keep wearing your tin-foil hat and sucking your thumb and thinking SoE is the Big Evil Greedy Company and Blizzard is the Good Kind Caring Company, but the fact is, they're both only in it for the money.
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2005, 06:50:15 PM »

Quote from: "Xmann"
i gotta tell you i'm always shocked when i read complaints about how these companies treat their customers.  i guess i'm just one of the lucky ones who slipped through the cracks and has never experienced all these horror stories about EQ, EQ2, DAoC, or other mmorpgs and their customer service.  i played EQ off and on for several years along with some buddies and we never had anything but pleasant experiences.  the same for DAoC and others.  i realize people do have legitimate problems but i honestly think they are minimal compared to those who have nothing but positive ones.  i constantly read about EQ or DAoC customer service being evil and such and i honestly just laugh.  i've always felt most people quit playing these particular games not because of customer service but they just get over the gameplay itself.
my $.02 anyways which probably noone will agree with and i'd be fine with anyhow.


Agree smile
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2005, 07:12:55 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
It's silly to compare server crashes and lag to character auctions. One comes from inexperience and the other comes from greed.

I'd rather play the game from the experienced, greedy company, myself.

Quote from: "Toe"
I have yet to see any company's first MMOL game crank out content as fast as Blizzard has. Most seem to wait a year or so to let things "simmer".

I don't the exact dates on hand but I think you'll find the original EQ easily trumps WoW here, with the caveat that most of the content (as opposed to bug-fixes, new minor features, UI enhancements etc.) came as a paid expansion. However, Kunark took about seven or eight months IIRC, and WoW is rounding the corner on five with nary a word...
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« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2005, 02:39:40 AM »

Quote
Finally, you're either crazy or just flat-out stupid if you think that Blizzard listens to a damn thing their players have to say about WoW. They. Don't. Care. They have 'THE VISION' worse than Verant did.

SoE, on the other hand, really listens to EQ2 players, makes an effort to patch frequently, releases new content regularly, and, quite frankly, is kicking Blizzard's ass in terms of customer service, communication, and relations. You say this is 'transparent' because SoE is trying to one-up Blizzard. I say, what the fuck does it matter? SoE is treating their customers MUCH better than Blizzard is.

Look, Raven, you can keep wearing your tin-foil hat and sucking your thumb and thinking SoE is the Big Evil Greedy Company and Blizzard is the Good Kind Caring Company, but the fact is, they're both only in it for the money.


Uh, wow - and you don't think you're a fanboy, huh.

That's a nice rant. Too bad you can't back it up with facts.

Patched Content

WOW - free
EQ2 - some free, some not free

Character Transfers

EQ - charges a fee  
WOW - free

Character Auctions

EQ - SOE profits from it
WOW - Blizzard bans you for it

Beta

EQ2 - have to buy their RTS game or play on Legends
WOW - open beta

Char slots per account

EQ2 - 4 per account LMAO
WOW - 50!

SOE is constantly dreaming up new schemes to milk their remaining subscriber base for more revenue, such as charging a fee for name changes.  

But like I said - enjoy the Koolaid.
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« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2005, 05:38:37 AM »

LE needs to stop the blizzard hate.  

He is like an ex-smoker that hates people that still smoke.  Just back away from WoW, it obviously isn't for you.  No need to spew venom everytime it is mentioned.
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« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2005, 12:39:50 PM »

Quote from: "Ender"
LE needs to stop the blizzard hate.  

He is like an ex-smoker that hates people that still smoke.  Just back away from WoW, it obviously isn't for you.  No need to spew venom everytime it is mentioned.


Hrmm sort of like Raven needs to do with SOE?

Lets see, there have been multiple free character transfers in EQ2... WoW transfers just started how long after thousands of people bitched because they couldn't play due to cues?  

EQ2 has had 1 paid content patch.... however they have had 6 major free content patches in addition to daily minor patches.

WoW and EQ2 both ban farmers etc... WoW denies that people use EBay, SOE recognizes that Ebay can't be stopped so facilitates legal transfers on only specific servers.

Beta - WoW was more a marketing demo where they didn't listen to beta player feedback... EQ2, I didn't buy the RTS nor play on Legends, yet I was in... odd....

Char Slots...EQ2 has 6 actually, which most still think is too low, personal preference, I only ever run 3 chars at max.
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« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2005, 01:55:56 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
Quote
Finally, you're either crazy or just flat-out stupid if you think that Blizzard listens to a damn thing their players have to say about WoW. They. Don't. Care. They have 'THE VISION' worse than Verant did.

SoE, on the other hand, really listens to EQ2 players, makes an effort to patch frequently, releases new content regularly, and, quite frankly, is kicking Blizzard's ass in terms of customer service, communication, and relations. You say this is 'transparent' because SoE is trying to one-up Blizzard. I say, what the fuck does it matter? SoE is treating their customers MUCH better than Blizzard is.

Look, Raven, you can keep wearing your tin-foil hat and sucking your thumb and thinking SoE is the Big Evil Greedy Company and Blizzard is the Good Kind Caring Company, but the fact is, they're both only in it for the money.


Uh, wow - and you don't think you're a fanboy, huh.

That's a nice rant. Too bad you can't back it up with facts.

Patched Content

WOW - free
EQ2 - some free, some not free

Character Transfers

EQ - charges a fee  
WOW - free

Character Auctions

EQ - SOE profits from it
WOW - Blizzard bans you for it

Beta

EQ2 - have to buy their RTS game or play on Legends
WOW - open beta

Char slots per account

EQ2 - 4 per account LMAO
WOW - 50!

SOE is constantly dreaming up new schemes to milk their remaining subscriber base for more revenue, such as charging a fee for name changes.  

But like I said - enjoy the Koolaid.


Nice facts Raven.  And I agree with you 110% about Blizzard.  But you are in a loss cause by trying to convince EQ2 players that Blizzard is better.  

We all just need to get along.
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« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2005, 02:17:52 PM »

Quote from: "zinckiwi"
Quote from: "Toe"
I have yet to see any company's first MMOL game crank out content as fast as Blizzard has. Most seem to wait a year or so to let things "simmer".

I don't the exact dates on hand but I think you'll find the original EQ easily trumps WoW here, with the caveat that most of the content (as opposed to bug-fixes, new minor features, UI enhancements etc.) came as a paid expansion. However, Kunark took about seven or eight months IIRC, and WoW is rounding the corner on five with nary a word...


Everquest was released in March of 1999. Ruins of Kurnak came out in March 2000, 1 year later.
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« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2005, 03:37:23 PM »

Quote from: "Torfish"


Nice facts Raven.  And I agree with you 110% about Blizzard.  But you are in a loss cause by trying to convince EQ2 players that Blizzard is better.  

We all just need to get along.


Except that his facts weren't actually factual.
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« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2005, 05:26:37 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
Uh, wow - and you don't think you're a fanboy, huh.

That's a nice rant. Too bad you can't back it up with facts.

Cute, catchy line, but your 'facts' don't hold water:

Patched Content

WOW - two or three 'content' patches to date, every single one including undocumented nerfs/changes.
EQ2 - over six patches, fully documented, every one of which puts any of WoW's to shame, all free.  one 'adventure pack' solely comprised of new zones for higher level characters.

Character Transfers

EQ2 - Several free transfer periods opened when circumstances required.  Option to move to any server from any server since launch, though it comes with a fee.
WOW - MIA til last month, despite CMs saying 'Soon' since release.  Extremely limited--Blizzard lets people on their chosen 'problem' servers move to one of a small selection of backwater, underpopulated servers.

Character Auctions

EQ2 - They happen and are becoming legal.  SOE profits from it.
WOW - They happen regardless of how bad you want them not to.  Blizzard says they'll ban you, but like every other MMO devhouse, it's an empty threat.

Beta

EQ2 - Had to *gasp* apply and be accepted.  Free beta slots to those who bought Lords of Everquest or played on Legends in EQL.
WOW - Had to pay Fileplanet $5 to download it, up until the last week.  Then all you had to do was wait in a 4500 person queue.

Char slots per account

EQ2 - 4 per account.  Yeah, this sucks.
WOW - 50.  zomgwtfbbq.

See how easy it is to turn your cutesy little 'facts' around on their ass?

KEEP SIPPING THE COOL ADE, BROTHER.  LAWL.   :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:
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-Lord Ebonstone-
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« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2005, 05:30:42 PM »

Quote from: "Torfish"
But you are in a loss cause by trying to convince EQ2 players that Blizzard is better.


You'd have a point if I was still playing EQ2.  But I'm not.  Last time I played it was back in November at release.  Though I didn't like the game very much at all, it's crystal clear that SoE is doing an infinitely better job than Blizzard at maintaining their game and community relations.
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Toe
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« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2005, 06:48:50 PM »

I have been playing MMOL games so long that I have developed a pretty thick skin when it comes to things like "customer relations", communication, content update frequency, nerfs, etc. Mainly thanks to EQ1's pretty weak performance in all those areas when it was first released smile.

What matters to me is if the game is fun. I know that all MMOL games have to have a little bit of unfun in order to make the fun parts more rewarding. WoW is fun. Initially, the things about WoW that made it fun to me were not something EQ2 ever had going for it. The EQ2 devs seemed to want to bring folks like me over to their game and have been making changes to EQ2 to make it more appealing to a certain type of MMOL player. Thats all well and good, but I have seen nothing yet that would remove the fun crown from WoW and put it on EQ2's head.

WoW, as a whole, has a certain character and style that adds a lot to the fun factor for me. Combined with the soloability and no-grind leveling, it is all I ever wanted in a MMOL game.

There will come a day in the distant future when WoW is just no longer fun for me. When that day comes, I will move on. Maybe to EQ2, maybe to some new MMOL game, who knows.
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morlac
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« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2005, 07:49:10 PM »

My guess Toe, is that time will be around when you get close to 60 and you realize that the game is no longer soloable and extremelly grindy.  That was my biggest(minus techincal issues of course) gripe with the game.  It really is 2 different games pre 60 and post 60.  Unfortunatlly its been touted and sold as a newbie feriendly/soloable mmorpg but has an end game the equal to if not surpassing EQ1 in terms of hardcore raiding.  That raiding also will be almost required for serious pvp when the BG's come out as gear will be even more important.  It really is a rude awakening to find out that all the time you spent getting to 60 to have a pvp chance will be for naught if you can't grind endlessly in the instances to aquire decent gear.  For alot of people this wont be a problem but it defintlly will be for those who want to pvp.  But then PVP'ers are all suppose to be hardcore anyways :wink:.

Oh and try not to compare the fun factor of 2 games if you have only played one Tongue.   In other words when you are through with WOW you really should try EQ2, if for know other reason then to compare which one actully is more fun.   I think you will find the answer to be both, I did....mostly smile
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« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2005, 08:23:35 PM »

I think EQ2 and WoW are both great.  Love em both.  Just don't happen to have my EQ2 account active atm, but then i might very well reactivate it at some point.  I got tired of not being able to do anything while looking for a group in EQ2, but then at level 60 wow is pretty much the same way.  The trick to WoW is don't play a rogue or hunter and you should be able to get groups without much trouble.

For me, being about having fun, i think either game has equal opportunity to excel.  The biggest difference between the two are graphics (cartoon vs more realistic) and pvp vs non-pvp.  However, the pvp in wow hasn't been anything to shake a stick at yet for value.  People are still waiting on and praying for battlegrounds to rock the hizzy, myself included.

What i don't get, is venom towards either of these two games, they are quite simply at this time, the pinnacle of MMORPG development.  There is nothing better yet.  If you wanna bitch at an MMO, try Lineage 2.
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