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Author Topic: LOTRO or Warhammer  (Read 5647 times)
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Tals
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« on: December 01, 2008, 07:58:59 AM »

I've been playing Warhammer for a couple of months now. Subscription has lapsed and so i'm debating should I give LOTRO another go or continue the sub with Warhammer.

I've been reading the other LOTRO thread with interest - however if I returned i'd plan on playing the game without the expansion pack initially. Has much changed since I last played - which was around launch date.

I also have got quite into some of the things that Warhammer does very well. Particularly in respect of the quests map which is frankly awesome, much easier to work out what the evenings entertainment entails. I also like its concept of PQs and Open Parties - Warhammer doesn't do grouping that well in quests (everything else yes) but most quests are PVE. LOTRO is I understand it more group based - but is their a good tool for finding groups.

Anyway interested on the vanilla side of LOTRO - previously I felt LOTRO was a less slick version of WOW with possibly a more known storyline.

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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2008, 11:12:24 AM »

Hmm, I recently resubbed for LOTRO, but, havent really played it - the world doesnt feel very interesting to me, but of course, that could be because I've only gotten to lvl 20 something with any toons.

Warhammer on the other hand,feels much more vibrant to me, although, I havent played much of that either...

I must admit, I really think it boils down to whatever guild you are in, that makes or breaks games like these two for you. It's MMO's, not single player online games, and I think the social aspect is actually much more important than people think.
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Tals
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2008, 11:20:44 AM »

Quote from: Razgon on December 01, 2008, 11:12:24 AM

Hmm, I recently resubbed for LOTRO, but, havent really played it - the world doesnt feel very interesting to me, but of course, that could be because I've only gotten to lvl 20 something with any toons.

Warhammer on the other hand,feels much more vibrant to me, although, I havent played much of that either...

I must admit, I really think it boils down to whatever guild you are in, that makes or breaks games like these two for you. It's MMO's, not single player online games, and I think the social aspect is actually much more important than people think.

This was my feeling. I love the LOTRO lore but when I played this last time it just didn't grab me - however lots of love towards the game at the moment and I was interested what has changed. On the otherhand Warhammer I think goes too much on lone quests so consequently not a lot of grouping outside of pqs/scenarios and rvr happens.

At the moment my tendancy is to continue Warhammer - i'm enjoying it, it could do with performance increase on the graphics side and various other issues but stuff like the quests being showed on the maps is a huge positive for me.

Tals
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 12:35:39 PM »

I'll give ya' my 2 cents if you care. 

If you are enjoying Warhammer (for the most part) now - I really don't think it's time to switch over yet, Tals.  Ride the wave while it's there.  I personally enjoy LotRO a little more than Warhammer because of the visuals, performance, questlines, crafting, lore, general maturity of player-base, and a ridiculously fun character class in the Warden.

But to me, even though grouping is grouping - I don't think any of these games force you to do it anymore except for the designated quests that flat-out require it (which is becoming a pretty standard operating mechanic these days I think).  I personally found Warhammer the easiest and most painless game to ever group in (with only City of Heroes coming close).  LotRO does have a very slick mechanic for setting up groups for people on the same quests; but in my limited experience back to the game after a long layoff, I'm not sure how many people actually use it.  People seem to be trained in the mantra of turning on the LFG channel and saying, "Book 1:11 LFM (2/6)" : (at least at pre-40 levels of play, which is all I'm familiar with).

As far as what has been changed since launch in LotRO - Suffice to say there is too much to list.  It's a significantly "deeper and richer" experience now than it was then.  The game being out for awhile has granted Turbine the chance to polish and fill in weak spots, which they have done an admirable job of.  LotRO is probably one of my favorite MMO's ever released.  However, if you strip away the lore, Book Quests, and Legendary Weapons, is it really that much different from anything else out there?  I don't really think so.  I think Warhammer might actually "win" that distinction.

From what I can tell, LotRO isn't going anywhere anytime soon - and even though vanilla LotRO (no Warden class) is a pretty great game, I see no reason to switch until you get tired of Warhammer.     
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 12:47:25 PM »

I think MMO's are at that stage in their life where a paradigm shift is needed. More and more I hear people complaining and moaning about the very things that drew them into this genre in the first place. That tells me people are bored with the status quo and want something different, right across the board.

I really hope a big change comes soon to MMO's in general. Some kind of new direction and game play mechanics.

The MMO crowd is getting bored and burnt out on the current game play of MMO's........We all hoped WAR would give us that dynamic change with the focus on fun rather than grinding\farming..It was a good attempt, but its failing. But at least they tried. The next one who wants to progress the genre to new heights might hit the ball a bit further out, until we get a home run again.

But till then MMO's are all very similar and alike. Slight differences in graphics and lore.........but the game play mechanics are all the same really.
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 01:34:08 PM »

I've not tried Warhammer, but my gut impression is that if you're more PVP-focused, that's the place to be. I'm not interested in PVP at all, and LOTRO in its current form has an unbelievable amount, depth and variety of PvE content and places to adventure in, along with a generally helpful and relatively mature community. So for me, it's the place to be.  icon_smile

As long as WoW has umpteen million players, and MMOs that try to steer "outside the box" either in gameplay or setting (i.e., non-fantasy settings) are usually either a technical mess or get their plugs pulled (the list is growing), I doubt you'll see much change in the genre. As the economy worsens, I could see publishers getting even more conservative in what they're willing to fund.
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 01:43:50 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on December 01, 2008, 01:34:08 PM

I've not tried Warhammer, but my gut impression is that if you're more PVP-focused, that's the place to be. I'm not interested in PVP at all, and LOTRO in its current form has an unbelievable amount, depth and variety of PvE content and places to adventure in, along with a generally helpful and relatively mature community. So for me, it's the place to be.  icon_smile

As long as WoW has umpteen million players, and MMOs that try to steer "outside the box" either in gameplay or setting (i.e., non-fantasy settings) are usually either a technical mess or get their plugs pulled (the list is growing), I doubt you'll see much change in the genre. As the economy worsens, I could see publishers getting even more conservative in what they're willing to fund.

I'm not sure i'd call it more pvp based. It certainly has the RVR elements and the scenarios (which don't differ much from the wow battlegrounds). Where it does differ is the concept of effectively having 4 levels and generally playing between there. So for example i'm level 21 and coming to the top of my 2nd tier and about to become low again for my 3rd Tier. This side on the rvr works really well. The PQs which is where I think all the action should be invariably much isn't happening and the quests in the most part arn't very challenging.

The performance however is not great and the story line so so, does make me wonder if I should dip my toe into LOTRO and decide.

Hmmm problems problems smile

Tals
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 02:44:25 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on December 01, 2008, 01:34:08 PM

I've not tried Warhammer, but my gut impression is that if you're more PVP-focused, that's the place to be. I'm not interested in PVP at all, and LOTRO in its current form has an unbelievable amount, depth and variety of PvE content and places to adventure in, along with a generally helpful and relatively mature community. So for me, it's the place to be.  icon_smile

As long as WoW has umpteen million players, and MMOs that try to steer "outside the box" either in gameplay or setting (i.e., non-fantasy settings) are usually either a technical mess or get their plugs pulled (the list is growing), I doubt you'll see much change in the genre. As the economy worsens, I could see publishers getting even more conservative in what they're willing to fund.

I hear what you're saying but think of the "dollars" that are available for a well done MMO. There are literally millions of players ready and waiting for the next big thing. Any production company talented enough in this arena could make a killing, bad economy or not. People will cut back in other area's of entertainment before they give up on MMO's.

I think this is a time for daring not conservativeness.......If any of them have the balls to step out of the box and give it a "REAL" go...IMHO of course 
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 03:51:07 PM »

LOTRO or Warhammer?

That's pretty simple.  It comes down to PvE or PvP...which one do you prefer?

I've found that LOTRO is a fine PvE game.  The quests are abundant, the instances are good, the player base is nice and it's a neat world to walk around in.  I've always found the world itself to be a bit dull and the game a bit humorless, but it's a good PvE & crafting game.  But there is no compelling PvP content IMHO.  Grouping is well done because you can play off of each others' complimentary skills in a number of ways.

WAR doesn't do PvE nearly as well as LOTRO.  Instances are dull and the quests/world aren't as good as LOTROs (not to mention that it bugs me that the game world isn't contiguous).  If the game didn't have PvP, it would be a lousy MMO.  But there is some compelling PvP content that, when it's balanced and not laggy, is some of the best PvP found in any MMO.

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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 04:52:24 PM »

I didn't like LotRO at launch (well, at the end of beta, technically). I've given it another shot this year starting around late summer-ish, and wow... I love it now. A whole bunch of factors involved there (not the least of which was playing a non-human race this time - MUCH better lore & atmosphere that way). And ironically, I actually quite like the PvMP that I've tried so far too. I say ironically because I keep hearing how LotRO is weak on PvP, but the way they've handled it is more interesting to me than other games (though WAR has the most solid overall PvP gameplay I've yet played).
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 08:22:41 PM »

Well i stopped playing Warhammer, i subbed for 1 month then quit, whatever it is i'm looking for in an mmo wasn't there.

Anyways i got Lotro a while back and managed to screw up my subscription and pay for 6 months twice, they offered me a refund but i never got round to sorting it out. The add on came out and i picked up knowing i had a subscription for it. Anways i have a 16 champion and a 24 Hunter and i am enjoying it a lot, oinly thing is i'm also playing Wotlk as well so really not getting far in either.

I have to admit to being a bit shallow when it comes ot MMO's, i love quests, i also love new gear, whether it's a new sword or whatever, those things keep me happy and playing.

All in all there isn't much in it between any of the mmo's, it's a matter of what it iches and WoW does it mainly for me, EQ2 did for a long time but i tried it again recently and there was nothing there, LOTRO also works and Warhammer didn't.

I have 2 Buddy Keys for LOTRO for the EURO version if anyone wants to try it, i assume you can download the client online?
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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2008, 03:51:27 AM »

Still have my WAR subscription, but spend most my time in LotRO (I've a lifetime subscription).  LotRO has more of what I want in a MMO and I enjoy the quests, graphics, depth of lore (of course), world, and crafting quite a bit.  And with the new expansion, the game became that much greater.  Moria (the place) is fantastic in just about every way -- especially the look, mystery, and size.  Further, the legendary weapons added still more depth.  And then they throw two more classes in to boot (don't care for the Runekeeper myself, but others apparently do). 


I greatly disliked LotRO when it first released, and I say to my friends that I just didn't "get it" at first.  But now I do.  LotRO is a great game for me.
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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2008, 06:46:56 AM »

Well i've spent all night patching LOTRO - one of the MMO's that doesn't need the subscription enabled to patch. So my plan is to try LOTRO again. I'm hoping that Warhammer will sort out the performance issues over the next month or so and then i'll return. Unlike most MMO's i'm leaving it whilst I enjoy it - just need it to improve to get the most of it. Should allow me to give a good view on LOTRO as well.

Tals
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« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 01:57:21 PM »

Personally, neither. I couldn't get drawn into the world of LotRO (also was never a fan of Tolkien's books), and WAR quickly grew stale with the unbalanced sides in PvP, repetitive mission design, and some really dumb design decisions that really screwed up PvP (no Human Tank? What?).

My current MMO love is EQ2. Yeah, I mostly solo it (have a 69 Fury right now), and in my years of being a subscriber, I still haven't hit max level (from lack of trying basically), but the game still looks pretty good (even though you need a fast processor more than anything else) and has a mature (yet low) playerbase.
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2008, 02:11:58 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on December 02, 2008, 01:57:21 PM

Personally, neither. I couldn't get drawn into the world of LotRO (also was never a fan of Tolkien's books), and WAR quickly grew stale with the unbalanced sides in PvP, repetitive mission design, and some really dumb design decisions that really screwed up PvP (no Human Tank? What?).

My current MMO love is EQ2. Yeah, I mostly solo it (have a 69 Fury right now), and in my years of being a subscriber, I still haven't hit max level (from lack of trying basically), but the game still looks pretty good (even though you need a fast processor more than anything else) and has a mature (yet low) playerbase.

EQ2 - done and don't plan to revisit. Just haven't seen what attracts people to it
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« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2008, 02:39:45 PM »

What I most enjoy about LOTRO is that I can just go exploring because of the vast areas of world that are available to explore and explore in way that you can get lost in.  By that I mean there are huge areas where you can explore and not have to worry about some large grouping of some mob always aggroing you.   In my just running around there are vast beautiful vistas that just convey a real sense of what I see in my head as the Middle Earth described in the books.

That vastness and exploring is what I really enjoyed about SWG at launch.  i could wander up in the mountains of my home planet, hunt and look around and hardly ever see anyone which i just found to be relaxing and fun.

I have found no areas in Warhammer where I can do that without running into angry tribes of something and often these areas of aggro overlap into the next band of angry something or others.

I suspect most MMO players could care less about the above but it is what has brought me back to LOTRO and what I appreciate the msot right now.
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2008, 04:21:46 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on December 02, 2008, 02:39:45 PM

What I most enjoy about LOTRO is that I can just go exploring because of the vast areas of world that are available to explore and explore in way that you can get lost in.  By that I mean there are huge areas where you can explore and not have to worry about some large grouping of some mob always aggroing you.   In my just running around there are vast beautiful vistas that just convey a real sense of what I see in my head as the Middle Earth described in the books.

...

I suspect most MMO players could care less about the above but it is what has brought me back to LOTRO and what I appreciate the msot right now.

This is, I think, a significant part of the draw to LotRO for me now that I've put some genuine time into the game and with the general updating that Turbine has done since beta. I really find the game relaxing and enjoyable now. Half the time I play, I'm not even really purposefully questing so much as just picking a direction to explore in and questing along the way if I happen to. icon_biggrin I haven't played a game that really lent itself to that since Asheron's Call.

Coincidence? I think not. I think we're finally seeing the next-gen vision of the AC team (or at least, whatever's left of them at Turbine). I hope LotRO has a long and well-supported lifespan, I wish them the success to support the game long-term. I want to see the rest of Middle-Earth fully realized by Turbine!
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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2008, 04:29:34 PM »

Me too.  The look of the world is just fantastic.  I love whatever engine they are using from a graphics standpoint.
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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2008, 05:39:42 PM »

Quote
depth and variety of PvE content and places to adventure in, along with a generally helpful and relatively mature community. So for me, it's the place to be.

I agree with that statement about LoTR 100%. I would also add in that it has a better storyline and quests associated with the storyline, than any other MMO I have ever played. This is thanks in large part to the Book system. I love the fact that they still have a TON of more content they can add to the game. Rohan, Gondor, Mordor, all of that needs to be added and will probably take several expansions to do so.
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2008, 06:06:32 PM »

Mordor........I am thinking that is probably not a place i will be able to go stroll around and explore leisurely  icon_razz

Playing LOTRO now has also given me the incentive to read the Silmarillion finally....I had a hard time making it through in the past.  The copy I have has a letter Tolkien sent to his publisher that is the most concise explanation of his world I have read.  Which has made my enjoyment of wandering around LOTRO increase quite a bit.
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2008, 06:17:29 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on December 02, 2008, 06:06:32 PM

Mordor........I am thinking that is probably not a place i will be able to go stroll around and explore leisurely  icon_razz

Playing LOTRO now has also given me the incentive to read the Silmarillion finally....I had a hard time making it through in the past.  The copy I have has a letter Tolkien sent to his publisher that is the most concise explanation of his world I have read.  Which has made my enjoyment of wandering around LOTRO increase quite a bit.

Loved the Silmarillion..........Did you ever read the book of poetry by Tom Bombadil?
Another interesting book that not too many know about..

The importance of music in Tolkein's World was above all else I believe.
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« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2008, 07:22:50 PM »

Touch choice between these two. LOTRO was one of those MMO's that I loved at first but after about 6 months got tired of it and canceled. I get the sense I'll be doing that with Warhammer as I don't think there's enough to keep me interested after the 6 month period.

I keep going back to EQ2 which now has solid play mechanics and a hell of a lot of content to keep me busy.
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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2008, 10:25:04 PM »

Early impressions on my first hour. Story as people have said is far more involving. Graphics are totally in a different league i'd argue to any other MMO around - for the equivalent performance. Still prefer Warhammers grouping and I also prefer warhammers map handling for the quests.

However should be interesting, at the moment i'm viewing this as a break to give warhammer time to sort out its performance issues smile
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2008, 03:20:36 PM »

I'd really been on the fence about this until last night after the 1.0.6 WAR patch (and its baby update(s) after the big patch).

WAR seems much more responsive now and I'm really enjoying the KotBS so I think I'll be sticking with it. And I've become a real PvP fan which blows my mind since I'd never pvp'ed before.

-Randy
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« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2008, 04:18:28 PM »

Quote from: Tals on December 02, 2008, 10:25:04 PM

Early impressions on my first hour. Story as people have said is far more involving. Graphics are totally in a different league i'd argue to any other MMO around - for the equivalent performance. Still prefer Warhammers grouping and I also prefer warhammers map handling for the quests.

However should be interesting, at the moment i'm viewing this as a break to give warhammer time to sort out its performance issues smile

same here, Tals - what server do you play on?
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« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2008, 04:35:23 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on December 03, 2008, 04:18:28 PM

Quote from: Tals on December 02, 2008, 10:25:04 PM

Early impressions on my first hour. Story as people have said is far more involving. Graphics are totally in a different league i'd argue to any other MMO around - for the equivalent performance. Still prefer Warhammers grouping and I also prefer warhammers map handling for the quests.

However should be interesting, at the moment i'm viewing this as a break to give warhammer time to sort out its performance issues smile

same here, Tals - what server do you play on?

Laurein - just started as a Dwarf so would be good to hook up smile
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« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2008, 04:39:18 PM »

Quote from: Tals on December 03, 2008, 04:35:23 PM

Quote from: Razgon on December 03, 2008, 04:18:28 PM

Quote from: Tals on December 02, 2008, 10:25:04 PM

Early impressions on my first hour. Story as people have said is far more involving. Graphics are totally in a different league i'd argue to any other MMO around - for the equivalent performance. Still prefer Warhammers grouping and I also prefer warhammers map handling for the quests.

However should be interesting, at the moment i'm viewing this as a break to give warhammer time to sort out its performance issues smile

same here, Tals - what server do you play on?

Laurein - just started as a Dwarf so would be good to hook up smile

awesome - love that server, yes, you choose the RP Server again ;-)

Whats the name, Tals?
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« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 04:45:39 PM »

I think it is tolein - but i'll post tonight smile
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« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2008, 05:16:14 PM »

I'm on Laurelin as well. If any of you want to join a kinship, I'm part of a friendly, casual one called Hand of Justice. They always accept more members.

Edit: Also, my character's name is Galagoras.
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« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2008, 07:19:37 PM »

I'm tolian, I have a friend on the server already so I suspect I will be joining his guild - others welcome. We can also friend up hopefully.

Tals
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« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2008, 08:48:39 PM »

I've stalled at 35 with my IB, but I want to get him to 40.  I think my issue has been soloing a Brotherhood IB is painfully slow and without a group to play with I just see no reason to play.   Also, the war effort started feeling like a second job.
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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2008, 05:40:16 AM »

I was subscribed to both LOTRO and WAR and killed my WAR subscription.  In my opinion, WAR is so uninteresting with regards to the game world.  Of course, having LOTRO be Tolkien helps a great deal.  I knew LOTRO was going to be my main and LOTRO be my game when I wanted some PvP, but the game ran horribly and didn't look anywhere near as good as LOTRO did, so it really confused me.  Finally gave up and I have WoW as my backup MMO.  When the LOTRO servers or down or just every now in then, I log into WoW and play.  I've not had more fun playing an MMO since I did the original Everquest and I've played every MMO out there, pretty much.
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Tals
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2008, 09:13:59 AM »

I still think war has a lot of potential. Hopefully if they get the performance sorted out the game will go from strength to strength.
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Razgon
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« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2008, 08:44:37 PM »

Okay - I'm officially hooked - Tals, I added you as friend the other night, but didnt see you online, name's Aegus, lvl 13 Warden.

oh, and have they upgraded the graphics of the game recently??? Everything seems crispy clear and damn fine looking - much much better than I remember - especailly the two starting ruins you enter as an elf looks damn good, the ones with goblins in them...
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Crawley
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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2008, 08:57:45 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on December 05, 2008, 08:44:37 PM

oh, and have they upgraded the graphics of the game recently??? Everything seems crispy clear and damn fine looking - much much better than I remember - especailly the two starting ruins you enter as an elf looks damn good, the ones with goblins in them...

They did put in DirectX 10 support awhile back and were touting the graphic improvements then so that may be what you are noticing.
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Razgon
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2008, 09:03:59 PM »

Quote from: Crawley on December 05, 2008, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: Razgon on December 05, 2008, 08:44:37 PM

oh, and have they upgraded the graphics of the game recently??? Everything seems crispy clear and damn fine looking - much much better than I remember - especailly the two starting ruins you enter as an elf looks damn good, the ones with goblins in them...

They did put in DirectX 10 support awhile back and were touting the graphic improvements then so that may be what you are noticing.

yeah, I know, but tried that once, and though everything just looked blurry somehow, so didnt use it this time around :-)
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TiLT
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« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2008, 09:29:45 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on December 05, 2008, 09:03:59 PM

Quote from: Crawley on December 05, 2008, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: Razgon on December 05, 2008, 08:44:37 PM

oh, and have they upgraded the graphics of the game recently??? Everything seems crispy clear and damn fine looking - much much better than I remember - especailly the two starting ruins you enter as an elf looks damn good, the ones with goblins in them...

They did put in DirectX 10 support awhile back and were touting the graphic improvements then so that may be what you are noticing.

yeah, I know, but tried that once, and though everything just looked blurry somehow, so didnt use it this time around :-)

Direct3D 10 doesn't make LOTRO blurrier, as far as I know. I only know of two effects it introduces: Trees and bushes cast detailed dynamic shadows (and they look awesome!), and water is supposed to look better.

I suspect the difference you're seeing in graphical quality might be caused by not using the high resolution pack last time you played.
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Tals
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« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2008, 10:35:56 AM »

Just been reading the huge amount of changes they have for 1.1

http://herald.warhammeronline.com/warherald/NewsArticle.war?id=492

Including that client performance - might just resub - miss the game already  crybaby
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EngineNo9
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« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2008, 01:48:36 AM »

It's funny reading this thread with posts for both games being randomly interspersed. 
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Razgon
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« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2008, 02:15:31 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on December 05, 2008, 09:29:45 PM

Quote from: Razgon on December 05, 2008, 09:03:59 PM

Quote from: Crawley on December 05, 2008, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: Razgon on December 05, 2008, 08:44:37 PM

oh, and have they upgraded the graphics of the game recently??? Everything seems crispy clear and damn fine looking - much much better than I remember - especailly the two starting ruins you enter as an elf looks damn good, the ones with goblins in them...

They did put in DirectX 10 support awhile back and were touting the graphic improvements then so that may be what you are noticing.

yeah, I know, but tried that once, and though everything just looked blurry somehow, so didnt use it this time around :-)

Direct3D 10 doesn't make LOTRO blurrier, as far as I know. I only know of two effects it introduces: Trees and bushes cast detailed dynamic shadows (and they look awesome!), and water is supposed to look better.

I suspect the difference you're seeing in graphical quality might be caused by not using the high resolution pack last time you played.

oh? High resolution pack? Do I have to do anything special to activate that? I do remember installing it, since the game asked specifically for it. But, I suspect you'r right, as to last time I played
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