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Author Topic: Lineage players be nice to your girlfriends!  (Read 2645 times)
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« on: January 21, 2005, 02:12:46 AM »

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Moral of the story?  Either be nice and don't break up or change your password when you dump her.

Ouch!  I wonder how long he took to get to his level?
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depward
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2005, 03:50:50 AM »

Haha that's LOW.  That's reeeeaaaal low   :lol:

Though, quite a creative revenge idea if I do say so myself.  Gotta give points to the ex-girlfriend for that.
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ericb
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2005, 03:31:33 PM »

With the way they treat online games over there I'm surprised he went to the police instead of killing her.  Seriously.  At least the game data "may" be able to be restored if he asks quick enough...don't know.
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2005, 04:05:57 PM »

Well doh!  I didn't see this thread.

Sorry leo8877!
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Butterknife
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2005, 04:47:47 PM »

I suppose I think the thing that is most odd about it is that they're actually charging her with breaking some kind of law.

I'd be as upset as the next guy if someone purposefully deleted my main character, but come on -- it's a game.
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leo8877
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2005, 05:04:28 PM »

Quote from: "warning"
Well doh!  I didn't see this thread.

Sorry leo8877!


 :cry:

 :wink:   I just didn't know what forum it belonged in!
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Fuzzballx
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2005, 07:03:19 PM »

Quote from: "Butterknife"
I suppose I think the thing that is most odd about it is that they're actually charging her with breaking some kind of law.

I'd be as upset as the next guy if someone purposefully deleted my main character, but come on -- it's a game.


Not only would i press charges, i'd be sueing on several accounts.

It's not "just a game" to people who put hundreds of hours (in many games its thousands of hours) into their characters and online lives.

Regardless of whether you approve or think its sad and stupid....that doesn't change the fact that doing something like this causes a serious loss and harm to the victim.

Excusing it and letting someone get away with a crime like that just because its "just a game" wouldn't be right.
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Butterknife
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2005, 07:54:52 PM »

Quote from: "Fuzzballx"
Quote from: "Butterknife"
I suppose I think the thing that is most odd about it is that they're actually charging her with breaking some kind of law.

I'd be as upset as the next guy if someone purposefully deleted my main character, but come on -- it's a game.


Not only would i press charges, i'd be sueing on several accounts.

It's not "just a game" to people who put hundreds of hours (in many games its thousands of hours) into their characters and online lives.

Regardless of whether you approve or think its sad and stupid....that doesn't change the fact that doing something like this causes a serious loss and harm to the victim.

Excusing it and letting someone get away with a crime like that just because its "just a game" wouldn't be right.


Repeat after me: It's just a game, it's just a game, it's just a game, it's just a game slywink

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more.  This is all make-believe, it's made up.  It's not real -- the only thing you "lost" is your time, which I have a hard time believing makes for a true legal case.  Legally you don't own anything that you "lost" anyway, the game company does.  So you lost your time?  Who cares?  Don't get me wrong, I'd be mad, but I'd get over it quickly enough.  As far as the whole breaching someone else's security thing or whatever they were tried on, OK, that might be a valid legal case.  But the fact is he's upset that his character is gone, and in my mind he's seriously overreacting because of the personal nature of the entire situation (which, of course, is the same thing that his girlfriend did).
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2005, 10:02:05 PM »

Two words : Virtual Property.

Got married online? Got Divorced online?  I get half of your gold, your boots, staff, and half the castle.
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RPGHero
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2005, 03:05:15 AM »

Quote from: "Butterknife"


Repeat after me: It's just a game, it's just a game, it's just a game, it's just a game slywink

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more.  This is all make-believe, it's made up.  It's not real -- the only thing you "lost" is your time, which I have a hard time believing makes for a true legal case.  Legally you don't own anything that you "lost" anyway, the game company does.  So you lost your time?  Who cares?  Don't get me wrong, I'd be mad, but I'd get over it quickly enough.  As far as the whole breaching someone else's security thing or whatever they were tried on, OK, that might be a valid legal case.  But the fact is he's upset that his character is gone, and in my mind he's seriously overreacting because of the personal nature of the entire situation (which, of course, is the same thing that his girlfriend did).


Lets work with this.
If I play a game, and my ex decides to destroy my account it's okay.
Lets suppose I spent time writing up a biography of my character and that was deleted?  Still okay?
What if I wrote some stories and did some sketches of my characters in the game and she deleted those too?  Probably still okay since its just a game, nothing serious.
What if I got tired of playing the game and I spent my time just writing stories about it and drawing sketches.  Still okay because there really is nothing valuable about my time and silly thoughts right?
Now imagine if my name was Tolkien.  Your right, all that time he spent writing about that silly bullshit was ridiculous, no value to that at all.
I can guarantee that there are people who have as much time into Lineage as Tolkien put into the writing of the Hobbit.
BTW, I also think that the guy who collects my garbage out of my office everynight has just as important job as I do, and the way he spends his free time whether he is researching the meaning of life or watching porn, the fact is that it's time he will never be able to get back whether he wants to or not.  
That's why she should spend time in jail, because she took assets from him, his investment of time.
The older I get, the more I understand the value of time.
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Butterknife
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2005, 03:59:36 PM »

Yay!  Another debate. slywink

Let's work with this:  Little Timmy is 8 years old, and he is playing baseball with his friends.  The score is tied, both teams have been playing for a couple of hours.  Timmy gets hit in the head by the ball, starts to cry, and takes his ball home with him, effectively ending the game.

Time for a class-action lawsuit by the other 8-year-olds, Timmy wasted their entire time!  It's not just a game, it's a valuable resource -- who knows what kind of brilliance might have come out of it?  Little Johnny was going to be the next Babe Ruth, if only he'd had a chance to finish the ball game!  Now little Timmy owes him and the other players a million dollars. slywink

I guess my point is this:  If you argue that the destruction of someone's virtual character in a video game is a crime, you must prove that the character in question has some determinable value, else no crime has been committed.  If I destroy something that has no value, I have committed no crime (why I swat mosquitoes).  

Pointing to Ebay and saying "see, this character has value, they could've been sold online" is the next step in your case.  Let me argue that:

1)  Blizzard, SOE, or whoever (at least in the States) state quite clearly in their terms of service for the game that they are reserving the right to all of the virtual property in the game.  This includes characters, deleted or not.

2)  The selling of virtual property online is regarded by most video game companies, at the moment, as "illegal".  (I don't want to get sidetracked into an argument about it's actual legality at the moment, hence the quotes.  Suffice it to say they don't want you to sell your characters online, and since they retain ownership, they have that right.)

Now for the really good stuff, the "what if"s.  The news story states that they had played together in the past.  What if she had access to his account (he'd given her his username and password in the past)?  No "breaking and entering" charge, then.  What if she had been playing a character on his account, and deleted it because she wasn't playing any more?  What if she had deleted one of his low-level characters in order to create a new character of her own because of character limits?  Did he make a fuss that time?  This is all theoretical foolishness, of course, but it would be cool to know more of the story.

Anyway, do two things for me:  First, prove that the deleted character had value.  (That should be easy enough -- just don't use Ebay).  Second, and this is the hard part, prove that the boyfriend in question "owned" the valuable character that was deleted, and not the girlfriend who did the deleting (obviously not) or the video game company who made the game (obviously the true owners).
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Fuzzballx
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2005, 10:02:34 PM »

First off, your misusing part of the EULA.

Secondly, the EULA is not a legally binding contract.  It's more like a casual agreement that you agree to it and you can get throuh the gate.  EULAs don't always hold up in court.  The EULA actually isn't legally enforcable in some cases and many EULAs outright try to force things on you that are contrary to what the law allows.  We went though this whole thing on gonegold at length.

Third, your trying to force your OPINION on everyone as fact that "its just a game" when it actually is not "just a game" to many hundreds of thousands or even millions of people.

Fourth, in Asian courts, the precedence has already been set that virtual game world crimes can be treated as real crimes.  For ex: stealing something through unauthorized access, selling it, and pocketing real world cash was determined by a court to be the exact same in matter of law as stealing a physical possession and fencing it.

Hong Kong courts have determined that loss of virtual property through hacking allowed by loopholes in game servers is a real tangible loss and that the game company can be and will be forced to restore said virtual property to the user in spite of the EULA claim that it belongs solely to the game service provider.  The court disagreed with your interpretation of hte EULA and use of that as a legal out for the company,, Butterknife.

Asian courts have also determined thoroughly and in several cases that activities such as deleting this guys lineage characters qualifies as unauthorized and illegal access with criminal intent.  

In this case, the x girlfriend WAS arrested AND CHARGED with real crimes.

So much for timmy and accidently getting hit with a baseball, that one is out of the park.
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Butterknife
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2005, 10:27:22 PM »

Quote
First off, your misusing part of the EULA.


Sorry, I don't understand.  Which part?

Quote
Secondly, the EULA is not a legally binding contract.


Agreed.  So answer my question -- who owns my online MMORPG character, me or Blizzard?

Quote
Third, your trying to force your OPINION on everyone as fact that "its just a game" when it actually is not "just a game" to many hundreds of thousands or even millions of people.


Nonsense.  I'm not trying to force my opinion on you, any more than you are trying to force yours on me, anyway.  slywink  I'm just taking the opposing side to what you obviously believe.  Even if everyone else in the whole world thought I was wrong, I could still be right.  Galileo had this exact problem.

Quote
Fourth, in Asian courts ...


Forgive me for not making myself clear earlier.  I had assumed we were debating the merit of this same case in the American courts.  Obviously, if it's against the law in Asia, it's against the law.  I'm not even an authority on American law, let alone Hong Kong and so forth.

Quote
In this case, the x girlfriend WAS arrested AND CHARGED with real crimes.


Note she was only arrested and charged, not convicted.  Innocent until proven guilty, even in Asia (I assume).  Anybody can be arrested.

Quote
So much for timmy and accidently getting hit with a baseball, that one is out of the park.


Why?  I see a great deal of similarities between the cases -- exactly why I provided the example.

Just so you know -- I'm not emotionally involved in this discussion one way or the other.  I'm taking an opposing viewpoint merely to show that there is one.  Frankly, I don't much care -- so view my posts as merely trollish if you wish.

Anyway, my original point still stands.  Assuming that the deleted character has some sort of determinable "value" (something I am willing to concede) who owns it?  The game company, or me?

Here's another example, just to stir things up even more:

Diablo 2.  You could create online characters and play them in "hardcore" mode, where they would be immediately deleted by Blizzard or Blizzard's game software to be more precise, upon their possible demise.  According to your logic, they deleted "your" character, thus you are entitled to legal recompense of some sort.  A class-action lawsuit?  I find it as preposterous as the original claim, that you somehow "own" your online characters and can somehow press legal charges against someone for destroying them.  Why should a person (the girlfriend) be liable for such an act, but a video game company is not?
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Rowdy
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2005, 05:46:18 PM »

Off topic but
Quote
Innocent until proven guilty, even in Asia (I assume). Anybody can be arrested.
 Innocent until proven guilty is very much a western society (US, Canada, Western Europe) convention - hell, even in Mexico you're guilty until proven innocent.
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SuperHiro
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2005, 05:05:52 PM »

The second... the INSTANT, any game becomes more than "just a game" to me... I will quit.  Life provides enough false sense of accomplishment as it is.
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Just Hiro will do.
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2005, 09:21:52 PM »

Quote from: "Rowdy"
Off topic but
Quote
Innocent until proven guilty, even in Asia (I assume). Anybody can be arrested.
 Innocent until proven guilty is very much a western society (US, Canada, Western Europe) convention - hell, even in Mexico you're guilty until proven innocent.


More off topic smile

Not only guilty till proven innocent in Mexico, but often you go directlly in front of a judge.  Like in as soon as they bring you in the policia station.
You dont pass go, you dont speak to a lawyer, you just go straight to court and/or jail.  Don' t ask how I know smile
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drifter
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2005, 09:38:11 PM »

You're baseball analogy is wrong anyway.  He took HIS ball and went home, his own property after being injured by being hit in the head.
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Butterknife
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2005, 11:09:54 PM »

Quote from: "drifter"
You're baseball analogy is wrong anyway.  He took HIS ball and went home, his own property after being injured by being hit in the head.


Sorry, who owns the ball is irrelevant.  Read the third paragraph in my post -- I'm arguing against the initial point that someone who is playing a game can sue other people for causing him in-game distress; whether that is from deleting their character, taking their baseball home, or just dying in a hardcore game.

By the way, I had assumed that I'd won the argument several days ago, since there weren't any more posts.  Or, at the very least, that nobody was interested in debating it any more.  slywink

(edit to add -- I'm glad to see that there are other people who feel the same way as I do about these games that we care so much about, such as Superhiro.  We're all hardcore gamers here, but I wondered if I was an oddball for thinking that it doesn't end up mattering much in the end, since it's just a game)
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drifter
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2005, 04:23:21 PM »

I agree that its a bit silly to have some one arrested for deleting a game character or items belonging to a character.  You should also look at it from the pont of view that some one else proposed.  At what point does the deletion of virtual material cause harm?  

If roommates share a PC and one deletes the others term paper what then?  There is definitely harm and distress there.  

Can you define the attachment the player had to the character and items.  The es-girlfreind knew what she was doing and intentionally acted with malice in mind.

Because people stop posting it doesnt mean you won, perhaps you just wore them down.
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Butterknife
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2005, 06:16:50 PM »

Quote
Because people stop posting it doesnt mean you won, perhaps you just wore them down.


Yeah, I'm kind of tired of talking about it, too.  I cared more two weeks ago. smile
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