Guild Wars 2 (official review on pp 21)

[Roguetad]

One of the many small things I really appreciated about GW1 was being able to respec without paying silly scaling fees or penalties.  Being able to do that outside of towns, out of combat, would be great.  I don't understand why most games look at respecs as money sinks.  Who cares how many times someone wants to respec their character?  Oh I can spend 1,000 gold to have 2 specs?  Super.  It's like they're intentionally penalizing creative players for experimenting with different builds.  That makes no sense to me.  

[Huw the Poo]

It wasn't always so - I'm pretty sure that for the first year, at least, respecs really had to be earned.  But yeah, I agree with you.  Respecs really ought to flow a lot more freely in MMORPGs.  Guild Wars is particularly suited to it.

[PR_GMR]

A different 'death' system and no true tank/healing/dps classes in Guild Wars 2!

[Huw the Poo]

Not sure what to make of that.  While it's great that you won't have to wait for certain types of player to join your PUG before doing a quest is viable any more, I personally really enjoy playing support classes.  Although it sounds like you can still play support up to a point.  We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

I'll say one thing.  Like Stardock with Elemental, I have absolute faith in ArenaNet and I'm confident that Guild Wars 2 will be something very special indeed.

[Blackjack]

Well, to me it is a little dangerously like Champions Online. There aren't really any classes there, and you mix and match skills pell-mell. I only have my open beta experience to go on, but I often felt lost as to how to mix the skills effectively. I could mix them to recreate a popular comic book character, sure, but I'd go get my arse beaten in constantly with ineffective skill mixes.

This was while players around me complained the game was "too easy," and I was like "What the HECK am I doing wrong?" My L8 character was getting pounded into the ground, and theirs was wiping things out left and right. I liked the idea of "skills freedom" but rolling broken character after broken character was a big reason I lost interest in that.

I think such a "hybrid" system can work if you give players enough guidance. I'm not real clear on if GW2's system is "every character is exactly the same and is equally good at everything and can use all the weapons in the game" (to me that sounds boring) or it's more "you can mix the skills to be just a little strong in certain areas."

Personally, I like having classes, but I've liked games where you have a couple of different specialization routes within a class (the late Tabula Rasa comes to mind, and SWTOR seems to promise some of that), or a few different sub-classes within a class (AoC comes to mind -- you can be a Priest of Mithra if you really want a healing focus or choose more DPS style mages that can still heal decently).

[Asharak]

A different 'death' system

I think there probably is the kernel of a good idea in there but most of this announcement is less revolutionary and more playing with semantics:

when you die, you enter what is called a down state. In your down state, you have four skills you can use to try and take down your attackers, three dictated by your class, and one available to all classes.

Should you manage to exact revenge before your consciousness meter runs out, you'll rally, getting back up on your feet and back into the game.

If you do die, you can either wait for a player to revive you - all character classes in Guild Wars 2 can revive - or [t]ravel to any previously visited waypoint and revive there for a small fee.

Put more clearly, what they're doing is adding a stage between fully-alive and completely-dead, the "down state", which appears to be tied to a timed "consciousness meter". It's not that there are no penalties for death, it's just that running out of health doesn't quite mean you're dead. As they admit in the very next sentence, if your consciousness meter runs out, then you really are dead and that death works pretty much like any other MMO: wait for the rez or teleport to a waypoint and run back to where you were.

It's an interesting idea but I'm not entirely convinced that the extra complexity is worth it. If you want people to be able to fight after they run out of health, why not just give everyone a bunch of extra health to begin with? Have to wait to see how the "down-state" skills work, I suppose. If those really are interesting and different from "up-state" gameplay then maybe this is justified but if they're just things like "weakened punch" then this seems rather pointless.

- Ash

[CeeKay]

help help!  I'm mostly dead!

[Destructor]

I see their 'not dead yet' tactic as a 'you're on the brink of death, yet you reach down to pull off a heroic comeback' thing. Like how Borderlands did it. I think it's a cool idea.

[skystride]

I liked the idea of "skills freedom" but rolling broken character after broken character was a big reason I lost interest in that.

I think such a "hybrid" system can work if you give players enough guidance. I'm not real clear on if GW2's system is "every character is exactly the same and is equally good at everything and can use all the weapons in the game" (to me that sounds boring) or it's more "you can mix the skills to be just a little strong in certain areas."

Since you don't have to reroll in GW every time you make a mistake, I don't really see that problem happening.  Also just because they said there won't be any archetype class doesn't mean there won't be character builds who are specialized at doing certain things.  It difficult to imagine how a Mage loaded up on offensive skills will tank as well as a Warrior with lots of defensive skills.  I think what they are trying to say is that if the Warrior in the party quits, then the Mage will be able to switch his skillset and become defensive.  Thus removing the need to have a specific class mix to accomplish a goal.

[rittchard]

I liked the idea of "skills freedom" but rolling broken character after broken character was a big reason I lost interest in that.

I think such a "hybrid" system can work if you give players enough guidance. I'm not real clear on if GW2's system is "every character is exactly the same and is equally good at everything and can use all the weapons in the game" (to me that sounds boring) or it's more "you can mix the skills to be just a little strong in certain areas."

Since you don't have to reroll in GW every time you make a mistake, I don't really see that problem happening.  Also just because they said there won't be any archetype class doesn't mean there won't be character builds who are specialized at doing certain things.  It difficult to imagine how a Mage loaded up on offensive skills will tank as well as a Warrior with lots of defensive skills.  I think what they are trying to say is that if the Warrior in the party quits, then the Mage will be able to switch his skillset and become defensive.  Thus removing the need to have a specific class mix to accomplish a goal.

What he said!  All these ideas sound wonderful to me - finally a developer willing to take a few chances and shake up the paradigm.  As much as I enjoy playing support/healing classes, I love the idea that you won't *need* one to succeed, and that players themselves will be more valued than the class they are playing.  There are more than enough traditional games out there with set defined roles and "holy triad" class structure, why not try something different?

All that said, it still seems like if you decide steadfastly to play a support role, you'll be able to tweak and tune your character, and simply *play* in a manner so that you end up truly creating that role, the caveat being that your presence may not be absolutely essential to a party's success, but it might still make everything easier or more efficient.

[CeeKay]

the ranger.

[PR_GMR]

the ranger.

Thank you, government dayjob for blocking my ability to see cool game videos during my workday. (/sarcasm) 

[skystride]

Why not go to the official source or is that blocked too?

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/ranger/

[PR_GMR]

Why not go to the official source or is that blocked too?

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/ranger/

The Man doesn't allow any type of streaming technology on work computers. They're blocked there also. I'll check them out once I get home tonight.

[CeeKay]

Damn the Man, save The Empire!

[rittchard]

Spread Shot through the fire ring - SWEET.

[Roguetad]

The GW2 version of Whirling Defense is pretty sweet too. 

[skystride]

I kinda like how the characters make comments during fights.  In most MMOs your toon is usually mute except for a bit of grunting.  Of course too much of the same chatter could get old if they don't randomize it properly.

[Blackjack]

I kinda like how the characters make comments during fights.  In most MMOs your toon is usually mute except for a bit of grunting.  Of course too much of the same chatter could get old if they don't randomize it properly.

Sounds fun though imho, it's always better to make "character chatter" a player customizable option.

I have been saying the Heroes in the Sky F2P I'm playing these days would've benefited from some optional pilot radio chatter to add some flavor and drama. It seems odd to be in a sky full of WWII fighters and bombers and not a hear a word of radio chatter.

btw, do the bears talk?   (I don't have speakers at work)

[Destructor]

btw, do the bears talk?   (I don't have speakers at work)

Other than 'generic canned growl effect', no.

And I'm really, REALLY looking forward to this game. It looks more and more amazing every update.

[Blackjack]

I thought maybe the bear would say "I'm hungry. Feed me soon, or I'll rip your head off and use it as a helm." 

Although I keep an eye on this, I couldn't get into GW. A City of Heroes SG-mate tried to get me into it, but it just didn't take.

[Roguetad]

GW had kind of a weird feel for me too.  The engine felt like it was designed for point and click, rather than a typical mmorpg designed with WASD and mouse interface.  Because of that, I struggled muscling around the camera in GW using WASD and mouse.  It just never felt good to me.   

[PR_GMR]

GW had kind of a weird feel for me too.  The engine felt like it was designed for point and click, rather than a typical mmorpg designed with WASD and mouse interface.  Because of that, I struggled muscling around the camera in GW using WASD and mouse.  It just never felt good to me.   

Ehhhh. I play GW just fine using WASD. What yo' talkin' about, Willis? 

[skystride]

What's wrong with the WASD controls in GW?  I actually prefer it to most other MMOs.  The PVP in GW is really fast paced and requires fast activation of skills, quick manouvering and good situational awareness.  I found the UI perfectly suited to do this but maybe it takes some getting used to initially.

[Roguetad]

It's hard to describe...I used WASD and mouse for GW (because of the fast pace), but it just felt weird to me.  The camera didn't feel as responsive (or maybe just different?).  I think what also contributed to that feeling for me was (as dumb as this sounds) not being able to jump over stuff in the environment.  It just felt like the game was designed for mouse and click movement, with WASD as an option.  Just my own take.

That said, I still played a ton of GW, and got a lot of value out of prophicies, factions and nightfall.  

[Huw the Poo]

 

GW2 looks better and better with every news release.  I'm more excited than I can put into words!

[rittchard]

GW2 looks better and better with every news release.  I'm more excited than I can put into words!

Me too!  It makes me want to cry that it's not coming out this year.

[PR_GMR]

Had a chance to watch the Ranger videos. They're just 'Wow'. Now, are we certain all that chatter is actually in the game and it's not just there for effect? Also, this is the first time I've actually felt sorry for a mob getting killed by pets--On the first and second vids, the sounds are pretty brutal!

[Blackjack]

Meet The Norn:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/gw2/features/previews/norn
Their armor looks pretty cool, and they can transform (shapeshift) into various animal spirits.

[CeeKay]

Q&A about the Ranger.

[Lockdown]

After seeing that video focusing on the Serpent Strike and Whirling Defense skills.... I'm not sure I've ever wanted to play a class more than this Ranger in GW2.  Holy Crap was that cool!    Wow!

[PR_GMR]

You gotta see it to believe it: Guild Wars 2: The New MMO Manifesto!   

[Destructor]

You gotta see it to believe it: Guild Wars 2: The New MMO Manifesto!   

Holy shit that looks amazing. And the guys who did the trailer deserve a raise - what a fantastic trailer visually.

[CeeKay]

You gotta see it to believe it: Guild Wars 2: The New MMO Manifesto!   

Holy shit that looks amazing. And the guys who did the trailer deserve a raise - what a fantastic trailer visually.

every fan who watches that trailer gets a raise 

[Lockdown]

Holy crap!

If this game is only half as good as it looks like it's going to be....       

[Asharak]

They're still talking big - a world that is truly persistent and dynamic is the holy grail of MMO mechanics - and it still sounds wonderful but I'm still skeptical. What they claim to have accomplished is extraordinary but there's still a lot of marketing speak and far too little nuts-and-bolts details to be convincing. How, exactly, does a truly dynamic MMO world function in the context of a 1,000 players needing quest material consecutively? How can they create quests that quickly, or do the dynamic components just fold back on themselves in a loop, eventually, giving you a world that is ultimately just as static but simply better disguised? And if repetitively "swinging a sword" is boring, well, you're going to have to do something repetitively is you want to keep a player base playing for hundreds of hours on end; whatever they have in mind might seem fresh and original for the first couple dozen hours but I fail to see how they're going to keep it so indefinitely.

Honestly, what they're promising is so far beyond what any other company has been able to provide so far that I know I'm not going to be convinced until the game is released. My fear is that this could be the reverse of Dragon Age: that was a great game with truly horrible marketing; GW2 is setting itself up to be a brilliantly marketed game that could fail disastrously if the systems they're boasting about don't work as advertised. Of course, that means that I will have to buy the game to find out, which I guess just proves that their trailers, at least, work as intended...

- Ash

[Lockdown]

But is the game "really" an MMO?  If it's the same as the original Guild Wars - maybe they are not under the same constraints.  I admit I haven't followed GW2 religiously, so I know very little of how the mechanics work; but I was under the impression it was going to function quite differently from something like the new Star Wars game, for instance.  Are my assumptions false?

[Blackjack]

Guild Wars is just... Guild Wars.   Nothing so far suggests they're going to turn it into a More Traditional MMO when their different take was so successful.

The WWII F2P I've gabbed about here is to some extent a bit similar. Airfields and lobbies where you meet up with lots of players. And lots and lots of mission instances (not really interconnected like GW's though). You don't have like 200 fighters trying to kill the same 10 targets or something. Is that really an MMO? Does that even matter? imho, all that really matters is, is the game so much fun you lose track of time? When you get home, do you feel like you can't wait to play it again?  

I never felt that hook with Guild Wars myself, though I hope GW2 will.

What's fascinating about gaming to me sometimes is that something that seems like something that I wouldn't like or that would drive me crazy becomes something I really enjoy (see Starcraft 2). And sometimes things that by all means I should love, that are - to speak - "right in my wheelhouse," don't do it for me. I'd throw stuff like Guild Wars and Champions Online into that mix for me.

I very much want to like stuff like GW2 and SWTOR, but perhaps neither will do it for me, and I'll be playing Tera, Vindictus and Black Prophecy next year instead. The gaming world works in funny ways.  

[Asharak]

But is the game "really" an MMO?  If it's the same as the original Guild Wars - maybe they are not under the same constraints.

Well, they wrote a fancy design manifesto that said, among other things (this was quoted earlier in this thread, as well):

The first thing you should know about Guild Wars 2 is that, this time around, there’s no question that it’s an MMORPG. It’s an enormous, persistent, living, social world, filled with a wide variety of combat and non-combat activities.

Thus, while I presume there will still be some instances, my understanding is that the main game world will, in fact, be more like that of a "traditional MMO". That certainly is the mechanic that makes the whole "dynamic world" thing seem so difficult to me; if they have, in fact, stuck with the entirely instanced model, then it is quite possible that your personal instances could be tailored to your previous actions. But given that making an "enormous, persistent, living, social world" was part of their design manifesto, that seems unlikely.

Still, I'm not trying to drag down the enthusiasm here. I applaud any serious effort to bring this sort of sophistication to a game and I very much want to see how it turns out. I also continue to applaud their dedication to the no monthly fees model. That, by itself, makes it a very likely that I will buy the game to see if the reality can match the expectations.

- Ash

[Lockdown]

Still, I'm not trying to drag down the enthusiasm here...

I didn't get the impression you were.  More like you were expressing doubts they will be able to deliver what they are selling.  Which is understandable I guess.  I don't know enough about programming (by a long shot) to know whether or not the things they are proclaiming are plausible or not. 

I DO know that I hope they blow us all away.  That would be refreshing in this genre to say the least.