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Author Topic: For those EQ1 Vets Playing WoW  (Read 6443 times)
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agony21
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« on: November 17, 2004, 02:54:32 PM »

After playing EQ2 for a couple weeks, I find myself very dissapointed. While I told myself I wanted something different then the original EQ, when i decided to play EQ2 it seemed like all the shortcomings from the game were things that I loved about EQ1. So i guess I had to change my way of thinking. What I am looking for in a MMORPG is something very similar to EQ1 except without the inflated economy, and far less powerleveling and twinkage. I was thinking about trying out WoW, but have been told by a few people to save my money, because its not worth it...

For all you players in Beta, knowing that I am looking for an EQ1 just a tad earlier in its life cycle, would you reccomend WoW? Or should i just stay with the original?


Thanks for your input in advance...
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Arkon
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2004, 03:02:41 PM »

I enjoy WoW, and em enjoying EQ2, and enjoyed EQ1 a lot.  WoW is very different from EQ1 and I don't think it will have what you are looking for.  But that is tough to say without knowing what particular things were that you thought you hated but have found you loved.
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Raven
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2004, 03:07:26 PM »

In my opinion, WOW doesn't have the class depth that EQ1 does. Combat is more fast paced, and strategy, while helpful, isn't absolutely necessary. Unlike EQ1, where cc and aggro management are crucial.

But I haven't played the higher levels.

But you can have 50 characters per account, compared to EQ2's 4 characters per account, and you'll never die trying to weave a shirt, so that should count for something.
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agony21
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2004, 03:22:28 PM »

Well let me list some of my pros and cons I have found

EQ2 Dislikes:

1) the whole idea of grouped mobs ( 2+ at once ), i really dislike how everything is so labeled and defined... There is no mystery. I liked the ability to learn a zone and be able to figure out strategies to pull singles rather all these mobs are coming at you regardless.
2) Cities are HUGE... Qeynos is enormous it takes awhile to find your quest NPC's even if you have a waypoint to tell you where they are.
3) Game is heavily quest oriented, as opposed to the original
4) Inventory menus are really really sluggish, i mean transfering items to the bank is a pain and money... Not quite sure why its so slow in comparision.
5) Not a fan of the questing for my class option. I like the ability to alter my stats upon character creation and choose my class.
6) Battles are extremely chaotic, very fast paced... I mean.. I am chain healing the tank at lvl 11... sheesh... Cant nuke, otherwise warrior goes down.
7) Locked encounters = GARBAGE... yes this addresses the KS issue, but also nerfs anyform of friendly PL...
Cool no buffs for non grp members? pfft.. thats just sad. No more KEI for donations :-(


EQ 2 Likes:

1) Graphics and character animations are amazing.
2) Voices are great
3) Tradeskilling is phenomenal.. Love this aspect

As far as how WoW compares? hope you guys can fill me in

Thanks
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Arkon
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2004, 04:12:57 PM »

Quote
EQ2 Dislikes:

1) the whole idea of grouped mobs ( 2+ at once ), i really dislike how everything is so labeled and defined... There is no mystery. I liked the ability to learn a zone and be able to figure out strategies to pull singles rather all these mobs are coming at you regardless.
2) Cities are HUGE... Qeynos is enormous it takes awhile to find your quest NPC's even if you have a waypoint to tell you where they are.
3) Game is heavily quest oriented, as opposed to the original
4) Inventory menus are really really sluggish, i mean transfering items to the bank is a pain and money... Not quite sure why its so slow in comparision.
5) Not a fan of the questing for my class option. I like the ability to alter my stats upon character creation and choose my class.
6) Battles are extremely chaotic, very fast paced... I mean.. I am chain healing the tank at lvl 11... sheesh... Cant nuke, otherwise warrior goes down.
7) Locked encounters = GARBAGE... yes this addresses the KS issue, but also nerfs anyform of friendly PL...
 no buffs for non grp members? pfft.. thats just sad. No more KEI for donations


Ok...

1. I agree to an extent, but it honestly hasn't ruined my fun.

2. I see this as a good thing...I like the fact that I feel like I am in a huge town.  WoW most towns are small, a few are pretty big.

3. WoW is very very quest oriented as well.

4. This depends on your system, and using shortcuts like shift dragging so you drag whole stack and so on.  I don't have any sort of lag like this, but may vary per machine, no problems with it in WoW either.

5. The quests are all very easy and fun in my opinion, altering stats while fun is useless when a difference of 5 points is meaningless, can't alter starting stats in WoW either.

6. Group with an Enchanter, or a more knowledgable tank.  My usual group consists of 1 crusader, 1 warrior, 1 druid, 1 cleric, 1 enchanter and me.  We often take on groups of 5 to 6 mobs with ease, one at a time, no chain healing needed.  Any game including WoW can have chaotic battles if you go into ill prepared to handle it.

7. Locked encounters, the good outweighs the bad... being able to have encounters tailored in difficulty due to no outside interference makes for better encounters.  Personally I am glad there is no buffing outside of the group.  I am also glad that powerlevelling has been severly limited.Encounters are locked in WoW but in a slightly different way, you can powerlevel in WoW.
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agony21
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2004, 07:11:59 PM »

Thanks for the info  biggrin

I think I will give WoW a shot... Just to see how it will be... Your probably right about the grouping... I have no doubt that the tank didnt know how to tank after you mentioned you had no problems... I think that may also be an issue in the early stages of the game... people still really havent learned to play nevermind how to play their characters... I may wait it out for awhile and try again...
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Falcon554
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2004, 07:15:44 PM »

Well tell you what if you dotn like EQ2 then you wont like WoW either. The games have more in common then not. Both are Quest heavy, battles in both are fast paced, tho Wow might be a bit faster. Heck even the dungeon in EQ2 evile side has the same name as one in Wow. smile

I like them both alot.
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Scott
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2004, 10:32:35 PM »

Stay with EQ1.  Combat in WoW is very shallow and very action-y.
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Cici
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2004, 10:49:40 PM »

I played EQ1 for 4+ years. I beta tested both EQ2 and WoW.
I choose WoW because it's more fun to me.

1. I dislike "linked" and "grouped" mob idea as well. It dramatically limits the way you can approach the battle. In EQ1, my friend and I had fun doing HARD LDON with war/enc/bst/druid/cleric/cleric. As you can see it's nowhere an ideal group and most of us only had bazaar gears. But we managed to deal with the lack of pulling and DPS with our superior healing power. I don't think I could do similiar thing in EQ2. The EQ2 Devs have a very strict mind of forcing player to fight the way they design.

2. EQ2 cities are huge. But there are only two, Quenos and Freeport. I much prefer the way of EQ1's multiple starting cities. And WoW is more like EQ1 in this part. Each race's starting zone is really really different.

3. Quests. Both have Fedexpress and kill/collection ones. But WoW's quests make more sense to me, and have more backgrounds. Most WoW quests at least have stories like that of EQ2's newbie island goblin quest, while a lot EQ2 quests, although nicely voiceovered, have nothing to do with EQ world. WoW quests are more focused. In EQ2 I tend to have 50+ quests and get confused. But in WoW I always know which quest to work on. It's more like storytelling and exploration than exp grinding.

4. Both are ok in my opinion.

5.  EQ2 class are too generic. I never feel excited or look forward to new skills. WoW is more like Diablo2. Each class plays differently, and there is subclass within class.

6.  Both games are no match for EQ1.  WoW put more emphasis on individual classes. You can solo to L60 if you want. Unfortunately it also means most pickup groups in WoW are chaotic. But if you play with friends, you can form a very efficient group to take bigger challenges.

7.  I just don't understand why people thought KS was a big issue in EQ1. Sure I met some KSer but it's never a serious problem.  I played Enc/Cleric in EQ1 and it's always a nice feeling to do MGB buffs. Sucks in EQ2 that you can neither heal others in battle nor buff them. This results I never care about what others fights anymore. There is no such limitation in WoW. And while WoW has more inmature players (more kids), I almost always get free buffs from strangers. There is no begging for buffs. Since most buffs are instant cast, you just spam it out while you are running somewhere:)


8. Trade skills: I actually like WoW's trade skills more than Eq2's. I am not a "tradeskill" player.  Hunting and exploring are my likes. WoW's crafting is integrated into the hunting. As a druid, I take skinning and leathermaking. And I actually CAN and WILL use my crafted armors at L10. I don't have to reach L200 to make a profit. I make potions from alchemy, food from cooking, bandages from tailoring. And I use these products in my daily hunting.  I would say WoW's crafting system is simple but elegant, while EQ2's is more like a fulltime job Tongue


9. Graphics and Voices.. there are enough reviews talking about those.




Just my 2c
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Daehawk
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2004, 12:40:56 AM »

Have'nt played EQ2 and wont for a while if ever. Everything Ive read just screams "cheap money maker"....2 cities....classes.....seems to be pretty graphics and no heart.
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2004, 12:54:54 AM »

Quote from: "Daehawk"
...seems to be pretty graphics and no heart.
Funny, that's what I'd say about WoW, except replacing "heart" with "brain."

I guess it depends on which mythos you're into, though.  I never played a Blizzard game's single player, thus I couldn't care less about the Warcraft story--it just seems cartoony and hackneyed to me.

OTOH, Everquest 2 won't make a lick of sense unless you have some notion of the first game, as it takes place after an apocalypse in the exact same world.
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Arkon
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« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2004, 01:21:10 AM »

Part of the problem I hear people say that classes are too generic.  Sure lvl 1-10 very generic, lvl 11-19 less generic, lvl 20+ much less generic.  They are letting people learn the game and abilities at a much more manageable pace instead of throwing very specialized roles at you from the get go.  I personally love the way the class system works.  At lvl 20 as an assassin I am very different from the other scouts.  I have many different utilities that I am bringing to a party over a brigand or a dirge etc... While from the begining you have all your main skills in WoW it leaves little room to grow other than a new version of the same spell.  EQ 2, the spells you gain 11-19 will be quite different from 1-10 and 20+ again very different from before lvl 20.

I like the sense of community that has been fostered by only having 2 main cities/hubs.  You are interacting with a much larger population from day one and you get to know a lot of people.

I am curious Cici how long you played EQ2, what level did you get up to?

Edit to add:  Crafting, yes it can be a full time job, but this is what many many crafters were asking for.  Many crafters want to be able to do nothing but craft and be very successful at it.  Personally I have been keeping my crafting lvl and adventure lvl close to each other and am always able to make items that are of use to me.
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« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2004, 02:24:50 AM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
While from the begining you have all your main skills in WoW it leaves little room to grow other than a new version of the same spell.  EQ 2, the spells you gain 11-19 will be quite different from 1-10 and 20+ again very different from before lvl 20.
That's one big thing I didn't like about WoW:  there were a 'core set' of 10-20 abilities for a class, all the other ones were just upgrades on those.
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2004, 02:28:57 AM »

Quote
Combat in WoW is very shallow and very action-y.


False.

Wow in one word is: FUN.

It is designed with that in mind, try to keep the game fun and easy to play.  That does not mean that it doesn't have longevity, many of the recent additions were made to keep a tight rein on inflation (very hard to do without making everyone mad) and make every class viable in groups (reducing the benefit of certain classes to groups).  With that in mind though there are shortcomings with the design, but as long as those shortcomings aren't focused on the game is FUN.

Pvp and battlegrounds will soon be added and should bring a whole new level of excitement.  To me that is the biggest draw of the game, it focuses more on combat with other players driving the world and raid/instance combat.  Execution will be the question mark.

The one caveat to all this is what your definition of "FUN" is.  I think Blizzard will appeal to many people that do not like mmorpgs, but by the very nature of bringing this broad appeal will turn off many that are diehard mmorpgers.  

For me blizzard games are about the flavor as well as the support.  Warcraft 3 is still receiving patches and changes to enhance the gameplay.  I played that game up until I got into the beta of WoW.  Blizzard knows how to create a fun, easy to pick up game that is difficult to master.  They also do a great job in building and keeping a customer base.

-Ender
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Arkon
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2004, 03:39:03 AM »

Ender, while I understand your point, what you define as FUN and what I define as FUN are invariably two different things.  I played WoW for about a month, and by the end of the month I just was not having FUN at all.  I found combat to be very shallow just as L.E. did.  After getting into EQ2 in some depth I am having a lot of FUN.  I find the classes to be very enjoyable, I am almost lvl 20 and am really getting into some awesome abilities.  Groups are really starting to learn tactics and strategy.

Ultimately we will most likely never agree due to our difference in how we define what is FUN.
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« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2004, 03:57:29 AM »

Quote from: "Ender"
False.

Wow in one word is: FUN.
False.

You in one word are: WRONG.

 :roll:
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« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2004, 04:55:48 AM »

Quote
Part of the problem I hear people say that classes are too generic. Sure lvl 1-10 very generic, lvl 11-19 less generic, lvl 20+ much less generic.

I don't like the fact that I have to play 20 levels to get to a class I want to play and try.  If I don't like it, it is another 20 levels to just start another one.  Sure you can look at spell lists, but blah.  The first 20 levels take a long time compared to other games, and that is a problem.  It does make the game feel generic.  You could play Halo 2 10 times before you become a Warden or Paladin.

The flip side, that was expressed, is that WoW seems to have little variety as you go, but spell upgrades.  Though I guess the Druid gets different forms and the fighters more stances.

As I think about it more though, and look at spell lists, you really don't evolve and grow that much in EQ2.  You get new spells with different names, but in a lot of cases they are just better heals or better attacks, nothing really different.  Maybe WoW is pretty even.

I'm playing EQ2 and loving it so far, not sure about WoW now, though I'll probably grab it as I liked the beta, and then decide after giving EQ2 a lot of time.  So far I don't see the same depth or complexity of the battles in EQ2 that I did in EQ.  It is faster, more chaotic, and not as strategic.  I can't speak about WoW as much, as I mostly soloed to level 10, while in EQ2 I've grouped more, and almost forced to do so.

I like the large cities and apparently large world that EQ2 has, and almost felt WoW was to small.  But then, only having two starting cities in EQ2 sucks.  I've seen all of both now, blah.  The rest of the area outside of the cities doesn't seem quite as fun to see so far.  I'm sure there is a lot of cool stuff.  WoW just seems like a better world to explore.

Still not sure which game I'll choose in the long run though.  I'm pretty torn on both.  What might decide it is WoW's fluctuating classes and the pain people will go through as Blizzard tries to balance for PvP combat.  Of course, PvP may make WoW they best game as well...  

Nice to have choices.
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« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2004, 05:05:51 AM »

Well duh, if you read my whole post you will see that the main problem is the definition of FUN.  Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with th Developer's version of FUN, that has been their strategic guiding principle, and MANY are feeling it when they play it.  You just happen to be in the minority, nothing wrong with that, just your tastes differ than the crowd blizz is catering to.

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« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2004, 06:47:16 AM »

Quote from: "Ender"
Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with th Developer's version of FUN, that has been their strategic guiding principle, and MANY are feeling it when they play it.  You just happen to be in the minority, nothing wrong with that, just your tastes differ than the crowd blizz is catering to.

Here's a little cynical hint:

Developers, Blizz included, don't give a rat's ass about "fun."  They want your money.  "Fun" just happens to be the path of least resistance to get it.

Also, I find it amusing you label people who don't like World of Warcraft in its current state the "minority."  Should I even bother to direct you to the offical WoW forums, which are so full of negativity and outrage over Blizzard's bizzare new direction for the game, PvP imbalances, and longstanding issues with class balance that I'm surprised it hasn't imploded the servers into one bitter black hole of hatred?
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« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2004, 07:12:07 AM »

I've played everything from Mud's to WoW so I'll throw my two sense in...

I never played EQ... Evercrack... but I've heard tales from people who powerleveled like it was thier job.  Your going to have to come to terms with the fact if there is leveling,, people will powerlevel.

What games I have played and what I liked about them:
Anarchy Online : Honestly, once you started ot know the game and spent time doing the little things, you went from being decent enough to downright good.  It was all about twinkage to some extent, but even then, the good pullers could pull well and the good medics could heal well...   It was ALL about groups, which I prefer.  A good group would spam out level after level and it wouldnt even seem like grinding until you hit the 150's.

The classes were fun, and while everyone would look the same in the EQ... there was something nice about while being one of a ton of people, by the time you had 50 or 60 levels, you had a solid group of friends already.  And by 150, I more or less hung out with all the big PK types and we joked around...  The community made AO for me.
(a pic of me in my heyday follows)
http://www.27in.tv/users/thefabledjames/images/mechilling2.JPG

Asherons Call 2 - I LOVED the graphics, no matter what anyone says.  I'd spend hours navigating the countryside in areas way over my head, running around mountain tops and screenshotting like mad.  I thought the crafting was rather fun and made looting key.  I also loved the world and it was interesting to see areas you were slowly taking back.  

But there was no substance to AC 2.  After you did about 25-30 levels, you just went: I've been doing the same sheet for 30 levels, and it's not changing... WTF...  he Experience you got from your quests wasnt enar enough so you had to grind out levels a lot.  If they had had some more stuff to do and more variety, I'd still play it.

Horizons:
Now there was so much variety to the classes, it was almost silly.  Spiritualists had 3 or 4 different passclaths they could take.  I went Bloodmage,  my housemate went a different class and our other friend went another one, all off the same basic starting class.  The same could be said for any classes though.  Soloing was pretty standard the entire game and grouping almost didnt make sense until you hit a level or two you just couldnt hack solo for whatever reason.  There wasnt a ton of rewards for grouping until you had a lot of levels under your belt and even then quite a few classes made more sense solo.

Buying plots of land and having the players use thier craft to build settlements/cities is damn near genius, and one of the few features that almost made that game worthwhile on its own.

Horizons wasnt deep enough either.  Crafting was good, plots of land were nice, but it REALLY got boring quick.  I just never really had a lot of fun in the game.  I played a few different character types and leveled em all up quick, but exploring really never gave me a big charge like it had in other games and it seemed easier to just spam out levels rather than quest and that never is fun.

Here is my Spiritualist after slogging aorund the countryside and finding a really tall place... Which would be my highlight from the game, scarily enough.


City of Hero's:
Character Creation made life worth living right out of the box.  I'd sit there for hours making this character and that character...
http://www.27in.tv/users/thefabledjames/images/cabal2.jpg
http://www.27in.tv/users/thefabledjames/images/kingtut1.jpg
http://www.27in.tv/users/thefabledjames/images/manaburn.jpg
And then level them up (They were all well into thier teens at the least when I was done)
You'd run around and do good.  A decent char usually molested a baddie his level or higher which made things nice.  Sometimes you could take on 3 or 4 guys your level without too much difficulty, and well, when you do that you just feel like a hero.  Grouping was terribly fun although not really needed.  You had a ton of quests to keep you busy and you just felt buffer and buffer with every level.  City of Hero's is really popular for a reason, and it's not crafting.  It's just plain fun to do things... because you are a hero smile

WoW:
I didnt get to sink my teeth into this much,.. I played about 4 or 5 days... in that time I got a Paladin, a Shaman, a Priest and a second shaman up and running in a hurry.  Leveling is interesting to say the least.  You _can_ grind it out and kill things for exp and spit out levels that way, but they give you a lot of quests for a reason in this game.  You kill a few things, you kinda level up, you finish your quest get a ton more exp and then go on to the next one.  You level more off the quests than the monster grinding in most cases which is a nice change of pace.

I rarely EVER see someone who looks just like me in the game, which is really nice.  I think they need to edit character creation and allow for changes in height and weight, but the things they have now are pretty solid.

Crafting is easy and damn near fun.  I was a tailor, so I could make myself armor on my priest, and within 2 days, I had level 50 (Out of 300), and was making very useful items...  Had I not also been raising my fishing levels and leveling, I could easily have been much higher.

Grouping wasnt bad, I think if you have any amount of friends playing with you, grouping is a bit easier and the levels just flow like water in a good group smile  Not to say you cant level and level fairly well solo, but if you have 2 or 3 people the way they have rewards for quests set up, you would be a fool to do them solo.  Some quests are purposely made for larger groups.  

Exploring is terribly fun, I would genuinely run to far away lands just checking out the sights and getting the EXP bonus you get for exploring.

It seems to me it's a Blizzard game, so people will powerlevel, will powergame and will PVP on the non PVP servers (Which shockingly enough can and will occur)  

You cant drop items on the ground and you cant scavenger for them to do a nice buisiness.  RP is ONLY on the RP servers.  The classes arn't quite as character balanced as you would hope.  I didnt get to test out level 60 stuff, but when I did see made me think some classes are just bred for PVP.  Still, most people wont ever have to worry about that unless they decide they want to.

I dont know yet if it's going ot be like FFXI where either you have to devote a large chunk of your time to do anything in that game, or it's going to be a good game for people who only have an hour or two a night tops.  But it seems to me they did a lot right with this one.  I really would have loved to test out what happens after you hit level 60, but I think it's a game where you just want to find out.

I dont know where it falls on your scale, and I Didnt review FFXI becasue I hated it for different reasons than anyone has now (When I Played, until I had to stop for school purposes, I was so high the only people i could group with were jappanese, and that just got too irritating for words...)
But to me WoW is one of the few games I would willing play after the beta.  I think as long as you have a few friends playing, WoW will move along nicely and keep you busy doing new and different things, which is key to me.

Thats my two(hundred) cents.
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« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2004, 07:45:10 AM »

Cool post, Semaj.  I'm surprised you never tried EQ or DAOC, though!

I've played almost every MMO since UO, save for SWG and Earth and Beyond.  That being said, I don't regard myself as an expert on the genre at all--I'm just a guy who's out to sample what the genre has to offer.
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« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2004, 12:19:50 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Ender"
False.

Wow in one word is: FUN.
False.

You in one word are: WRONG.

 :roll:


Nope. Sorry he is 100% correct. WoW is fun. It is more fun than any MMOL game out there on the market today. Nothing else even comes close.

Quote
That's one big thing I didn't like about WoW: there were a 'core set' of 10-20 abilities for a class, all the other ones were just upgrades on those.


I counted them last night, my 52nd level warrior has 29 "warrior" abilites that are distinct, a some of those are not available across all 3 stances. If I redone my talent points I could gain some abilities while losing others.

I have not played any other class up to high level so do not know how many they have, but I can hardly see how one can complain about lack of abilites for a pure melee class when it has 30+ abilities at high level.
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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2004, 02:03:00 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Ender"
False.

Wow in one word is: FUN.
False.

You in one word are: WRONG.

 :roll:


WoW is a blast to play, IMO.

There is very little grinding in WoW because of all the quests.  Most of the quests have good stories that make sense to the world around you.  And there are quests you need to group with others to succeed.

PvP is a blast too.  Last night I was involved with my first raid.  I was on the horde and we went hunting Alliance PvP players.  OMG, it was awesome.  It ended with a fight between 100+ players killing each other in the Night Elves woods.  PvP just added another layer of fun for me.
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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2004, 03:26:18 PM »

People complaining about changes are not necessarily people not having fun.  They are just following the standard behavioral model of resisting change.  Very few people can handle change well and certainly the average gamer will have problems with it.  A vocal minority whining about change that will in all probabily still be buying and playing the game does not prove any points.  

You will see that WoW will be the best selling and highest subscribing mmorpg in the US.  2 days to get 500k open beta subscribers?  Everyone that I am playing with are friends that I convinced to play from wc3 or family members that would NEVER touch a mmorpg before this.  Those are the people that blizzard is snatching up.  

Minority is really a relative word.  We as computer gamers are the minority.  MMorpgs just don't sell like normal games because the market is pretty static.  New mmorpgs rarely pick up new players, they just steal from the last game.  CoH broke this mold a bit but I think WoW will shatter this.  That doesn't mean EQ2 is worse, it just means that WoW has a more broad appeal.  


As a side note my lvl 30 hunter uses the 2 sidebars and 3 tool bars that thottbot provides so you can't really tell me that there are only 10-20 or so abilities.  There are a lot, and every battle I have to make use of many of them.  Plus there are separate ones that I need for pvp.  Not to mention the differentiation with talents, talents can make the same classes VERY different from each other.

-Ender
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2004, 05:14:16 PM »

I don't know why people are fighting over the definition of fun here.  I played WoW and I had fun.  I'm playing EQ2 and having a lot more fun.  I'm not going to blast anyone because they prefer one to the other.  Couple things to remember about EQ2 though:

1. There are two starting cities and they are gigantic.  That doesn't mean there are only two cities in the game.  There are already hints about other cities and lands to go out and find.  I also like the fact they are gigantic...it fits the story and I got tired of the 4 house villages in WoW (though some of the bigger places were fantastic).

2. The professions in EQ2 can vary.  You start with 4 and can get to level 10 in a long day.  Then you pick from another 3.  Then when you hit 20 you pick from another 2.  That's a lot of classes and customizations when you include racial traits and traditions too.  And there are other abilities you can find and add...you are NOT limited to the standard spells and abilities for each class.

3. The tradeskills and making items.  WoW seems geared towarded the player character making items for themselves...the EQ2 system seems geared toward a complex player controlled economy.  And the potential is huge and profit is nice fairly early...plenty of level 6-9 artisans making a hundred silver a night once they get the system down.

4. The quests...well it's a MMOG.  They all have quests.  I like the hundreds of available quests in EQ2.  I had to work early on in WoW to get more than a handful of quests going.  I ran around just about as much.

5. The games...both are very different.  There will be months of refinements, patches and updates to both games before any is close to a real "final release" product and the enhancements begin.  I'm not judging either...for everyone that says PvP is teh bomb in WoW there is someone else complaining it's even there.  Same in EQ2.  

I guess bottom line is play both and decide for yourself because you're the one sitting there putting the hours in.  And this forum is slow enough without attacking people who disagree with us and running them off  :wink:
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« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2004, 05:23:39 PM »

The spell list of a Warlock (EQ 1 necromancer) )in WoW

Prior to L20 (where I am in beta), and these don't include their upgrades (each has rank1 to rank 4-6)

1. Pet Imp: A low hp mage pet casting fireballs, fireshields and hp buffs
2. Pet Voidwalker: Tank pet with tons of hp and taunt
3. Three lines of Dots: fire-based, shadow-based, curse-based
4. Different curses to reduce mob DPS or stop mob running
5. Shadow-based bolt nuke, slow casting high damage
6. Fire-based nuke, fast casting low damage
7. Life-tap: Hp-mana convert
8. Drain-life: EQ1 type life tap, drain enemy's hp to self
9. Health funnel: Drain self hp to Pet
10. Pet-sacrifice: Sacrifice pet and give hp to self
11. Demon shield: EQ1's shield/archshield equivalent
12. Fear: same as EQ1
13. Healthstone: create +100hp instant stone for self or others
14. Soulstone: create rez stone for self or others
15. Underwater breath buff

L20+ new spells
1. Pet Succbus: A high DPS (Rogue?) pet which can mez(CC!)
2. Pet Felhunter: not sure, only know it can drain caster mana
3. Pet Inferno: An enslaved pet with high DPS but could backfire
4. Pet Doomguard: Unknown at this stage
5. Reign of Fire: Fire-based area rain dot spell
6. Hellfire: PBAOE dot spell
7. Various Curses to double enemy's casting time, reduce enemy shadown/fire/cold resistance
8. Banish: demon/elementals CC
9. Enslave Demon: Demon charm spell
10. Ritual of Summoning: EQ1's call of hero, summon groupmate to you
11. Shadow Ward: Absorb shadow spell damage
12. Detect invisibility
13. Skeletal horse riding: heh, give you a free horse

Also, after L10, you start to have talent points. Talent tree is like Diablo 2's skill tree. There are 3 branches for each class, each branch has 10+ talents, and each talent has 2-5 ranks. You get one talent each level after L10. So you will have 51 pts at L60. Different talent invest will yield very different char. Remember those different builds in Diablo? It's similiar, subclass within class.

Talent mainly do two things. One is to enhance your current spells. For example, I can make one of my dot instant cast, or increase the damage/duration/effect of various spells, or increase the power of pets. Talents can also grant you new spells, for warlock it can be instant nuke, snare, manadrain, pet-mana-transfer etc.

Most of the warlock spells are useful, solo or group. I feel like playing a EQ 1 necromancer, versatile and fun.

I would like to hear from some EQ2 veterans talking about EQ2 necromancer abilities.

By no means I claim myself expert in EQ2. My different chars are only up to L20. Maybe it will be fun later on. But it's no fun to go through that newbie island or class quest on my 6th char, using more or less the same 2-3 spells with different name/icons.  One thing WoW does right is it attracts people right at beginning while Eq2 you have to wait a long time before you can have a defined class.

Actually I kinda lost interest when SOE annouced a major class revamp three weeks before release. Sure it's a right direction, but I was surprised how they could overlook it from the beginning? Maybe one day it can evolve to the game I like.
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« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2004, 05:28:15 PM »

Quote from: "Ender"
You will see that WoW will be the best selling and highest subscribing mmorpg in the US.  2 days to get 500k open beta subscribers?  Everyone that I am playing with are friends that I convinced to play from wc3 or family members that would NEVER touch a mmorpg before this.  Those are the people that blizzard is snatching up.  
I really doubt WoW will be able to topple the original EQ.  Sure, it's a Blizzard game, and it's dreadfully "user friendly," but $15 a month is going to turn off a ton of those "casual" gamers you mention who'll buy the box and expect it to be the only cost they had to pay.
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« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2004, 05:31:26 PM »

Well actually, I didnt bother going over all the MMO's I've played...

I've done Lineage, Neocrom, Planetside, Saga of Ryzom, etc...

Just thought I'd go over the ones more people know and play than the random out of the way beta's...

But EQ was back when I mudded a lot and didnt want to pay to play, much like Ulrima Online.  Debated playing DAOC, a lot, as well as Shadowbane, but my housemate hated SHadowbane saing me torture, and I was poor for DAOC smile
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2004, 05:44:49 PM »

Quote from: "Semaj"
Well actually, I didnt bother going over all the MMO's I've played...

I've done Lineage, Neocrom, Planetside, Saga of Ryzom, etc...

Just thought I'd go over the ones more people know and play than the random out of the way beta's...

But EQ was back when I mudded a lot and didnt want to pay to play, much like Ulrima Online.  Debated playing DAOC, a lot, as well as Shadowbane, but my housemate hated SHadowbane saing me torture, and I was poor for DAOC smile
You didn't miss much with DAOC or Shadowbane, don't worry.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Saga of Ryzom... how'd that turn out?  That's another I haven't tried yet (I'm waiting for the client to go free).

Also, have you tried Neocron 2?  The first one was an interesting, if flawed game...
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« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2004, 06:34:39 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
You didn't miss much with DAOC or Shadowbane, don't worry.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Saga of Ryzom... how'd that turn out?  That's another I haven't tried yet (I'm waiting for the client to go free).

Also, have you tried Neocron 2?  The first one was an interesting, if flawed game...


Neocron 2 is coming out?  OoOoOoo...

As Far as Saga goes, I played it when it first started beta/alhpa/one of them thar thigns and the amount of bugs and problems I had running it made me uninstall it after about 2-3 hours, vowing to wait until they did more fixing, or hell froze over, I forget whiich.  

Literally on 1 character the first quest you get crashed for me and I couldnt get it again...  The second character didnt fare too much better.. I think they needed to do a bit more of the WOW entrance, where the lands are epxlained to you and the plight of your people is explained better so you get more into the lands quicker.  I dont like droning on in strange places(not interesting ones, just weird) without better understanding my plight, it just seems about as silly as investigating the house at the end of the block where people keep dying. (Vague Horror flick refrence...)

*Sidenote* I've picked up T Matrix Online and am Downloading Neocron 2 as we speak... I'll probably have thoughts for you inside of 2 weeks, when I can play them during thanksgiving break... lol
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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2004, 06:56:07 PM »

Quote from: "Torfish"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Ender"
False.

Wow in one word is: FUN.
False.

You in one word are: WRONG.

 :roll:


WoW is a blast to play, IMO.

There is very little grinding in WoW because of all the quests.  Most of the quests have good stories that make sense to the world around you.  And there are quests you need to group with others to succeed.

PvP is a blast too.  Last night I was involved with my first raid.  I was on the horde and we went hunting Alliance PvP players.  OMG, it was awesome.  It ended with a fight between 100+ players killing each other in the Night Elves woods.  PvP just added another layer of fun for me.



WoW is incredibly fun. LE is, in a word, WRONG. It has balance problems, and yes, Blizzard is slowly making progress towards ruining the incredibly fun solo friendly, casual PvE gameplay in favor of PvP "balance" (which they are nowhere near), and which should, if they had really thought this through, been an entirely separate ruleset. The shame of it is, probably less than...1/4 of all players are primarily PvP or want it beyond PvE battlegrounds. Still, its the only MMORGP I can see myself playing for more than a few months.
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2004, 09:17:07 PM »

Quote
2. The professions in EQ2 can vary. You start with 4 and can get to level 10 in a long day. Then you pick from another 3. Then when you hit 20 you pick from another 2. That's a lot of classes and customizations when you include racial traits and traditions too. And there are other abilities you can find and add...you are NOT limited to the standard spells and abilities for each class.

One problem still is that most of the classes play very similarly.  The heroic opportunities wheel almost mandates that.  If you want to be most effective, you have to chain certain abilities in order to get heroic damage or other effects.  That means each fight is almost identical.  

Granted, WoW will have its most effective approaches, but I don't think it'll be as linear, and the ability to customize your class a bit more through the Diablo like customization will change that a lot.

The more I read about both systems, the more I really think WoW has a deeper class system, and probably easier to use.

One other note that has me leaning towards WoW long term now is graphical performance.  I have a good system, and EQ2 kills it in crowded areas.  When I turn down the EQ2 options, EQ2 really deteriorates  fast.  It is amazing how quickly EQ2 goes from looking nice to looking pixellated and ugly.  WoW is very smooth on my system, and looks better for my hardware.  

I still am enjoying EQ2 though, but looking forward to WoW.
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2004, 09:50:51 PM »

I played WoW for several months and leveled a Tauren Shaman up to level 40, an unheard of feat for me. I've played just about every MMORPG out since UO and never managed to stick it out long enough to get into the upper levels. I've also leveled several alts to anywhere from 12 to 20th level.

I purchased EQ2 the day it released and have played it pretty exclusively since then, My highest character is level 15 Shaman, and I have a couple of 10ish alts.

Not exactly a fair comparison as I have had way more time with WoW however at this point I will be dumping EQ2 on the 23rd and going back to WoW.

My analogy is as follows:

WoW is like reading a Terry Pratchet or Douglas Adams novel, a fun light-hearted story that doesnt take itself to seriously. Easy to read and slightly deceptive in that there is actually a pretty deep engrossing story if you bother to scratch beneath the surface but overall in the end fun and satisfying.

EQ2 is like reading George R.R. Martin or actually even more so Robert Jordan, incredibly epic tales with lots and lots of minutae(that no one really cares about anyway) and stories(authors) that take themselves way too seriously. Playing EQ2 so reminds me of Jordans WOT books, you're going to have to trudge through about 1500 pages of text JUST to get to the part where the story starts to get good AND then you're going to have to trudge through another 15,000 pages to get close to the end.
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2004, 11:25:08 PM »

Rage, while you may think WoW is fun, I do not.  Does that make me wrong, or you wrong... no it means we have different tastes.  We need to accept both have thier audience, and for that audience each is a great game that is fun to play.
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2004, 11:28:14 PM »

I played the WoW beta extensively, then bought EQ 2 (had not played beta).  Been playing it exclusively since.  Yesterday, went back to WoW just for the h*ll of it (didn't know it was the end of the beta).  I just felt the game to be too lightweight.  Yes, it is fun.  But it reminds me so much of the first generation MMORPGs.  I've played this game before.....many times.  EQ 2 has moved ahead.  It feels like an evolved MMORPG with the HO innovation, great graphics, NPC voices, chat balloons, etc.  Though I like WoW, I like EQ 2 much more.
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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2004, 12:54:01 AM »

Quote
with the HO innovation

How is this an innovation?  If anything, it forces your hand by making you always follow a pretty prescribed set of attacks.  Group wise it also removes a bunch of strategy as well, and stops some of the freeform combat.  It is interesting, but I'm not sure it is any good in the long run, and probably hurts more then anything.  I think I'd rather have all of WoW's stances, etc.

Graphically the games are just different, not one of them really jumps ahead, at least for me.  If I had a super computer, then maybe EQ2.  Though, EQ2 feels more generic fantasy, more sterile then WoW.

I love the book analagy.  That is how I feel so far.  WoW is fun, but I think deceptively deep.
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2004, 01:56:42 AM »

scott, i really can't wait for you to stop playing EQ2 because you obviously don't like it, you complain about it all the time. please play WoW already. i personally like both games, will play them both, and don't feel a need to trash one over the other because they are not the same game and i'm glad about that.
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2004, 02:38:35 AM »

Quote
scott, i really can't wait for you to stop playing EQ2 because you obviously don't like it, you complain about it all the time. please play WoW already. i personally like both games, will play them both, and don't feel a need to trash one over the other because they are not the same game and i'm glad about that.

I'm trashing the game?  Come on.  I like EQ2, and have played a lot of it.  In  some cases, I'm curious why others feel the way they do.  I think the HO system is a step back, and curious why others like it.  I'm still partially deciding on which to play long term as well.  Right now, I think it is WoW for me.  I simply don't have as much free time as others do to play both.

I think I've stated and defended some of my points, not just random one word answers on any of this claiming it sucks or isn't fun.  I think you're over reacting saying I'm trashing the game.  Sorry if you feel I'm insulting a game.  It is fair to discuss good and bad points of both games, and in no way am I saying which game you should play.  Maybe you should go read the EQ2 forums if you only want to hear praise of games you like?

I noticed that WoW doesn't seem to have text bubbles like EQ2 does, unless I'm missing them.  That is to bad, as I enjoyed them with CoH and EQ2.
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« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2004, 12:41:45 PM »

Heh, don't go to the official EQ2 forums if you want to hear praise...they are almost as bad as the WoW forums with gripes, complaints and I'm leaving posts.

I have to agree with one of the above posts that EQ2 seems a step ahead even though it still needs some modifications.  The economy system alone would rule out WoW compared to EQ2 (for the small percentage of people like me who actually care about it and use it).  

I don't know what to say about the HO system...it's nice but not necessary.  Right now I can cast the spell, get the HO to pop up, cast my lightning like normal and do double the damage.  I treat it as a extra bonus attach and nothing else so it's just one more way of fighting.

I guess the main thing to remember is that if everyone loved one system then there wouldn't be multiple games out...I'm glad WoW and EQ2 are out at the same time because twice the people will have a game to play that makes them happy and the unhappy ones have another option.  I would be surprised though if either game isn't radically different in 6 months though for good or bad.
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« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2004, 04:25:37 PM »

Quote
I have to agree with one of the above posts that EQ2 seems a step ahead even though it still needs some modifications. The economy system alone would rule out WoW compared to EQ2 (for the small percentage of people like me who actually care about it and use it).

I don't know what to say about the HO system...it's nice but not necessary. Right now I can cast the spell, get the HO to pop up, cast my lightning like normal and do double the damage. I treat it as a extra bonus attach and nothing else so it's just one more way of fighting.

The EQ2 crafting system is pretty cool though for people that like it.  I'm still torn on it, I am slowly seeing the appeal, which almost scares me smile.  I was scanning the in game merchant board and it still looks like the economy is young.  I couldn't find any of my level 3 spells there, and almost thought about making my own.

The HO thing almost seems necessary though to fight efficiently.  It is satisfying to hit it though.

I played more EQ2 last night and really enjoyed it.  I was surprised when I finally finished all the quests I left undone, mostly just running back to give off what I caught, etc., and went from 10.5 to 11.  It seems quests really are key for experience, let alone good weapons and such.

I may play both games for a bit.  WoW when I have just time to solo, and EQ2 when I want to group.  I'm still torn on which to get.

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