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Author Topic: AOC loot question  (Read 6055 times)
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msduncan
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« on: May 18, 2008, 12:29:46 AM »

Hey guys....   How did this slip up on me without me knowing it was coming????

I have a question about AOC.    How does the loot system work?   Is it modeled in the same vein as WoW, or is it one of those games in which the developers seem to think that an economy based on crafting is even remotely fun?

In other words:   I live for random world drops, ultra rares, legendaries, etc.     Does this game do that, or is it more like LOTRO where you have no incentive at all to venture looking for loot?
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2008, 01:10:12 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 12:29:46 AM

Hey guys....   How did this slip up on me without me knowing it was coming????

I'm not sure how you missed the 16 page thread we got going.  maybe it was the obscure title  slywink  I'm kinda curious about the loot system too-  I don't recall seeing anything about it.
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skystride
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2008, 01:57:30 AM »

It's tough to say this early.  In the beta, zones weren't properly itemized.  I've seen uncommon and rare drops but the stat differences weren't huge.  Also boss mobs don't seem to drop great stuff yet.  So far it seems that items won't male a huge difference in this game, not like WoW.  It still seems to me that itemization is not fully implemented as they want, things will probably change.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2008, 02:22:13 AM »

individual bonuses seem small, but they do add up quickly.
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msduncan
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2008, 02:52:57 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on May 18, 2008, 01:10:12 AM

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 12:29:46 AM

Hey guys....   How did this slip up on me without me knowing it was coming????

I'm not sure how you missed the 16 page thread we got going.  maybe it was the obscure title  slywink  I'm kinda curious about the loot system too-  I don't recall seeing anything about it.

Laziness.   When a thread gets to be 16 pages, there is little chance I'm going to hunt through all those posts to find something obscure like loot rules.
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msduncan
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2008, 02:54:04 AM »

Quote from: skystride on May 18, 2008, 01:57:30 AM

It's tough to say this early.  In the beta, zones weren't properly itemized.  I've seen uncommon and rare drops but the stat differences weren't huge.  Also boss mobs don't seem to drop great stuff yet.  So far it seems that items won't male a huge difference in this game, not like WoW.  It still seems to me that itemization is not fully implemented as they want, things will probably change.


If that's the case, I'll pass.     I must be one of the only gamers in the world that loved the idea of getting to a hard to reach mob, killing it, and having a chance for a rare drop.
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2008, 03:16:23 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 02:54:04 AM

Quote from: skystride on May 18, 2008, 01:57:30 AM

It's tough to say this early.  In the beta, zones weren't properly itemized.  I've seen uncommon and rare drops but the stat differences weren't huge.  Also boss mobs don't seem to drop great stuff yet.  So far it seems that items won't male a huge difference in this game, not like WoW.  It still seems to me that itemization is not fully implemented as they want, things will probably change.


If that's the case, I'll pass.     I must be one of the only gamers in the world that loved the idea of getting to a hard to reach mob, killing it, and having a chance for a rare drop.

I think you have around 10 million others like you give or take a million.

I usually play to complete quests no matter how dumb they may seem and hate the idea of killing mobs just for xp or loot if they aren't part of a quest.  I always figured the levels and items will come when they come but I have run an instance or two more than once in a night trying to get a particular drop as well, and getting a purple item when you aren't expecting it was a thrill even if I did sell it on the AH.  So even though I love to quest if the different levels of loot aren't there I'm sure I'll bore of it fast as well.
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2008, 03:21:54 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 02:54:04 AM

Quote from: skystride on May 18, 2008, 01:57:30 AM

It's tough to say this early.  In the beta, zones weren't properly itemized.  I've seen uncommon and rare drops but the stat differences weren't huge.  Also boss mobs don't seem to drop great stuff yet.  So far it seems that items won't male a huge difference in this game, not like WoW.  It still seems to me that itemization is not fully implemented as they want, things will probably change.


If that's the case, I'll pass.     I must be one of the only gamers in the world that loved the idea of getting to a hard to reach mob, killing it, and having a chance for a rare drop.

No I think there are far more players that enjoy loot drops than don't. LotRO had the worst loot system in any MMO I've ever played and in the end it was what killed it for me. I don't need shiny treasure every kill but the occasional nice item drop keeps me happy and ultimately playing.
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msduncan
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2008, 03:57:02 AM »

Quote from: RobbieD on May 18, 2008, 03:21:54 AM

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 02:54:04 AM

Quote from: skystride on May 18, 2008, 01:57:30 AM

It's tough to say this early.  In the beta, zones weren't properly itemized.  I've seen uncommon and rare drops but the stat differences weren't huge.  Also boss mobs don't seem to drop great stuff yet.  So far it seems that items won't male a huge difference in this game, not like WoW.  It still seems to me that itemization is not fully implemented as they want, things will probably change.


If that's the case, I'll pass.     I must be one of the only gamers in the world that loved the idea of getting to a hard to reach mob, killing it, and having a chance for a rare drop.

No I think there are far more players that enjoy loot drops than don't. LotRO had the worst loot system in any MMO I've ever played and in the end it was what killed it for me. I don't need shiny treasure every kill but the occasional nice item drop keeps me happy and ultimately playing.

EXACTLY.   100% agree.   I canceled because of the horrible horrible loot system, and rather than the community rising up and forcing them to do somethign about it, you just had a bunch of people making excuses about it.

It's a shame too because the environment was incredible.   It could have been a WoW killer had it had more interesting classes and a real loot system.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2008, 04:20:21 AM »

I'd be fine with a system where all loot was crafting resources or sold and you bought all your gear, you know... kinda like how it would actually be slywink

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msduncan
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2008, 05:30:57 AM »

Quote from: Harkonis on May 18, 2008, 04:20:21 AM

I'd be fine with a system where all loot was crafting resources or sold and you bought all your gear, you know... kinda like how it would actually be slywink



Exactly how LOTRO was.   Exactly why it sucks.
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2008, 05:37:20 AM »

Quote from: Harkonis on May 18, 2008, 04:20:21 AM

I'd be fine with a system where all loot was crafting resources or sold and you bought all your gear, you know... kinda like how it would actually be slywink

that's the worst sort of loot system...just not fun in the long run, very boring
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skystride
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2008, 05:41:36 AM »

I still think AoC loot system will get better, it's just unfinished in it's current state.  They already have dice roll/NBG system in the game, doesn't make sense to have this if loot is not supposed to be an important part.
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Gryndyl
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2008, 06:52:14 AM »

Considering that crafting doesn't start until 40 and (I could be wrong here) seems mostly concerned with city building and upgrades, it seems like good loot should be a part of the game. Hard to tell having not seen any post level 20 loot drops
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2008, 10:30:13 AM »

Yeah pure drops for gear hasn't been great for me yet.(lv.14)
Quest rewards, and merchant stuff is the way to go so far.
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2008, 11:55:15 AM »

From a developer interview I ran across at TenTonHammer, full interview here:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/21108

Quote
How do you determine the drop rate for an item in the game? Are items going to feel ďepicĒ rather than simply being a random drop from a particular loot table? Or will bigger creatures always drop certain items?

Thomas: Itís a combination. We want to reward the exploring players, so if you come across a boss mob that isnít connected to any quest, he will have something interesting for the player. Something specific in some cases or random in others.  It just depends.

So youíre partially going back to the idea of needing to hunt X monster to get Y weapon?

Thomas: Yes. Some bosses, especially group bosses, will have quite specific loot. They will have items and equipment that are connected to their own archetype.

One thing they keep stressing is that loot tables make sense in regards to the mob. IE - you won't have wolves dropping gold and plate armor.
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2008, 01:06:12 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on May 18, 2008, 10:30:13 AM

Yeah pure drops for gear hasn't been great for me yet.(lv.14)
Quest rewards, and merchant stuff is the way to go so far.

This saddens me as this sounds precisely how the loot system for LOTRO is.    Crafting and Quest rewards are where the good loot comes from.    For those of you that didn't have the misfortune of seeing the effects of this long-term in LOTRO, let me give you a peek of the future of a game that goes this loot-route:

In about 40 levels...you will look around and notice that everyone looks the same and has the same gear.    Very very boring.     A system that mixes random valuable rares in, you have a huge variety of people wearing a huge variety of things.    THis will not happen in a game that forms their loot system like what LOTRO or seemingly AOC does.     

And for the record:   people claimed in the early life of LOTRO that the loot system probably wasn't finished.    Well... it was.   And it continued it's suckage to this very day.     

frown   I'll pass.
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2008, 01:08:11 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on May 18, 2008, 11:55:15 AM

From a developer interview I ran across at TenTonHammer, full interview here:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/21108

Quote
How do you determine the drop rate for an item in the game? Are items going to feel ďepicĒ rather than simply being a random drop from a particular loot table? Or will bigger creatures always drop certain items?

Thomas: Itís a combination. We want to reward the exploring players, so if you come across a boss mob that isnít connected to any quest, he will have something interesting for the player. Something specific in some cases or random in others.  It just depends.

So youíre partially going back to the idea of needing to hunt X monster to get Y weapon?

Thomas: Yes. Some bosses, especially group bosses, will have quite specific loot. They will have items and equipment that are connected to their own archetype.

One thing they keep stressing is that loot tables make sense in regards to the mob. IE - you won't have wolves dropping gold and plate armor.

Ok well now this seems more like it.    I need to learn to read the whole thread before investing energy into a long post.     I guess the only way for me to know is to wait a few weeks and ask around here to see what you guys think of the loot system when you start adventuring and finding more stuff.
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2008, 01:24:40 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 01:06:12 PM

Quote from: Arclight on May 18, 2008, 10:30:13 AM

Yeah pure drops for gear hasn't been great for me yet.(lv.14)
Quest rewards, and merchant stuff is the way to go so far.

This saddens me as this sounds precisely how the loot system for LOTRO is.    Crafting and Quest rewards are where the good loot comes from.    For those of you that didn't have the misfortune of seeing the effects of this long-term in LOTRO, let me give you a peek of the future of a game that goes this loot-route:

In about 40 levels...you will look around and notice that everyone looks the same and has the same gear.    Very very boring.     A system that mixes random valuable rares in, you have a huge variety of people wearing a huge variety of things.    THis will not happen in a game that forms their loot system like what LOTRO or seemingly AOC does.     

And for the record:   people claimed in the early life of LOTRO that the loot system probably wasn't finished.    Well... it was.   And it continued it's suckage to this very day.     

frown   I'll pass.

whoa whoa whoa

AoC is heavily influenced by WoW and the loot system seems the same to me.  I'm using plenty of drops as gear and have seen a few pieces that are just as good if not better than quest rewards.  I saw a named drop last night but I'm mainly just blowing through everything because levels >>> gear at this point.
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2008, 03:44:52 PM »

Yeah, the problem MSD is that correct loot tables and item stats weren't put in until very, very recently. Even then they were still largely unfinished. So even for those of us who were in closed beta, we really have no idea what the final loot system looks like - particularly in the end game/raid portion of the game.
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2008, 04:37:54 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on May 18, 2008, 03:44:52 PM

Yeah, the problem MSD is that correct loot tables and item stats weren't put in until very, very recently. Even then they were still largely unfinished. So even for those of us who were in closed beta, we really have no idea what the final loot system looks like - particularly in the end game/raid portion of the game.

Well last night we went to what looked like the final boss in Acheron Ruins (he was really cool looking btw) and didn't even get a bag dropped.  I've also killed lots of named bosses with no or useless drops.  So it's still not ready.
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2008, 05:28:29 PM »

A good loot system gives everything a slight chance of dropping a rare item, a little better chance at dropping a semi-rare item and a decent chance at dropping something useful. EQ2 and WoW have pretty decent loot systems. I loved hearing the clunk of a chest drop while playing EQ2. Having the best items only drop from elite mobs makes for camping and I hate camping.

I've only camped once for an item, two actually. There were these really nice pistols in Anarchy Online but they only dropped from a specific mob. You had to wait in line with your team to kill this mob and it didn't always drop the pistol so you might be there for hours because the mob was on something like a 30 minute respawn timer. This system is a bad...
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2008, 05:57:26 PM »

I've played AoC in open beta and now with Early Access. So far, loot hasn't been that special, but quest rewards are definitely interesting and they do make a difference. About random mob loot, I've found a few items with some decent stats, but nothing too interesting.

WoW was much the same way, and it wasn't until you started group instances that things got remotely interesting. In fact, I'd say AoC random low-level mobs drop a higher variety of loot so far, and some of it SEEM more useful than the first 10-15 levels in WoW as I remember them.

The developers have stated, more than once, that they're going for a balance between gear and player skill. Gear WILL matter, but it won't make or break a character like in many others - and I assume they're referring to WoW here mostly. I would estimate that the end-game raids (of which there are several according to the map) will have some very nice and powerful loot, but probably a bit toned down from WoW's utter dependance on loot.

A reasonable estimate would be somewhere between LOTRO and WoW in terms of raw power, and the bonuses leaning towards WoW in terms of variety. I've already seen cool stuff like increased chance of offhand hits as well as fatalities. That's hardly trivial in terms of bonuses at sub-20th level, especially not when the game goes to 80th level at launch.

They've also stated, plainly, that raid-gear, pvp-gear, and crafted gear will be roughly equal in power - but with various uses. Raid and PvP gear will tend to be better for those two activities respectively, and crafted gear will have customization in the form of magical gems - and it's supposedly this customization that yields power on par with rare raid/pvp gear.

It's too soon to say anything for sure, but unless you REALLY want loot to be the defining factor, it'd be a pity to miss out on what is - so far - a VERY good MMO.

Also, the items so far look way, WAY better than anything WoW ever had - and we're talking piss-poor low-level gear.
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2008, 06:09:22 PM »

Personally, I haven't seen too many problems with loot in general. I seem to be getting a decent collection of items as drops, and the quest rewards are quite nice.

I do have to ask though - EQ2 has a wonderful feature where (after level 20) you can put on armor into an 'appearance' slot, and you'll always look like that, but have the stats of what you're actually wearing. Did/does Conan have anything like that later on?
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2008, 06:13:35 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 01:06:12 PM

Quote from: Arclight on May 18, 2008, 10:30:13 AM

Yeah pure drops for gear hasn't been great for me yet.(lv.14)
Quest rewards, and merchant stuff is the way to go so far.

This saddens me as this sounds precisely how the loot system for LOTRO is.    Crafting and Quest rewards are where the good loot comes from.    For those of you that didn't have the misfortune of seeing the effects of this long-term in LOTRO, let me give you a peek of the future of a game that goes this loot-route:

In about 40 levels...you will look around and notice that everyone looks the same and has the same gear.    Very very boring.     A system that mixes random valuable rares in, you have a huge variety of people wearing a huge variety of things.    THis will not happen in a game that forms their loot system like what LOTRO or seemingly AOC does.     

And for the record:   people claimed in the early life of LOTRO that the loot system probably wasn't finished.    Well... it was.   And it continued it's suckage to this very day.     

frown   I'll pass.

LotRO kind of has a framework they must stay within. There wasn't a lot of bling in Middle Earth. Even so, there is a ton of variety in loot. I'm not sure why you never saw it. Higher level characters look a lot more distinctive than they do in WoW, where everyone grinds until they all have the same old tier X gear or crafted class set. No differentiation at all. I'm glad for games that are more than just lusting after the uber gear.

Ale

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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2008, 10:11:45 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on May 18, 2008, 06:13:35 PM

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 01:06:12 PM

Quote from: Arclight on May 18, 2008, 10:30:13 AM

Yeah pure drops for gear hasn't been great for me yet.(lv.14)
Quest rewards, and merchant stuff is the way to go so far.

This saddens me as this sounds precisely how the loot system for LOTRO is.    Crafting and Quest rewards are where the good loot comes from.    For those of you that didn't have the misfortune of seeing the effects of this long-term in LOTRO, let me give you a peek of the future of a game that goes this loot-route:

In about 40 levels...you will look around and notice that everyone looks the same and has the same gear.    Very very boring.     A system that mixes random valuable rares in, you have a huge variety of people wearing a huge variety of things.    THis will not happen in a game that forms their loot system like what LOTRO or seemingly AOC does.     

And for the record:   people claimed in the early life of LOTRO that the loot system probably wasn't finished.    Well... it was.   And it continued it's suckage to this very day.     

frown   I'll pass.

LotRO kind of has a framework they must stay within. There wasn't a lot of bling in Middle Earth. Even so, there is a ton of variety in loot. I'm not sure why you never saw it. Higher level characters look a lot more distinctive than they do in WoW, where everyone grinds until they all have the same old tier X gear or crafted class set. No differentiation at all. I'm glad for games that are more than just lusting after the uber gear.

Ale




And see this is where I differ.   I want a game where you can lust after uber gear, but you aren't 100% required to go into a raid to get it.    For instance:   you are a average joe fighting high level mobs for months both doing quests and in small groups or something simliar (non raid).    BLING!    You hit the jackpot on a random drop and get an uber item.

I don't understand why there has to be either all uber item raid dependencies, or NO uber items at all.    Why can't there just be uber items that randomly and very rarely drop in the world to make things interesting?   I mean it seems like devs either go all the way toward raiding, or they take out uber loot altogether.    There should be able to be loot that is randomly dropped for anyone very very rarely that is uber.     This isn't a hard concept.
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2008, 12:22:11 AM »

Quote from: Destructor on May 18, 2008, 06:09:22 PM

I do have to ask though - EQ2 has a wonderful feature where (after level 20) you can put on armor into an 'appearance' slot, and you'll always look like that, but have the stats of what you're actually wearing. Did/does Conan have anything like that later on?

I just plan on running around naked all the time  slywink
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2008, 04:58:12 AM »

I haven't been particularly impressed with the loot system thus far, but it does seem slightly better than LOTRO's early loot.  Certain named bosses have definitely dropped better/interesting items.  The manual lists rarity with 6 tiers, from poor to legendary.  Thus far the best I've seen is blue (superior) and that was a big quest reward.  Quite a few green drops and some of them not half bad.  I'd say the loot is so far close to on par with WoW's system in the early levels.  How it deviates in the late/end game will be interesting to see.
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2008, 06:00:25 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 10:11:45 PM

Quote from: Alefroth on May 18, 2008, 06:13:35 PM

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 01:06:12 PM

Quote from: Arclight on May 18, 2008, 10:30:13 AM

Yeah pure drops for gear hasn't been great for me yet.(lv.14)
Quest rewards, and merchant stuff is the way to go so far.

This saddens me as this sounds precisely how the loot system for LOTRO is.    Crafting and Quest rewards are where the good loot comes from.    For those of you that didn't have the misfortune of seeing the effects of this long-term in LOTRO, let me give you a peek of the future of a game that goes this loot-route:

In about 40 levels...you will look around and notice that everyone looks the same and has the same gear.    Very very boring.     A system that mixes random valuable rares in, you have a huge variety of people wearing a huge variety of things.    THis will not happen in a game that forms their loot system like what LOTRO or seemingly AOC does.     

And for the record:   people claimed in the early life of LOTRO that the loot system probably wasn't finished.    Well... it was.   And it continued it's suckage to this very day.     

frown   I'll pass.

LotRO kind of has a framework they must stay within. There wasn't a lot of bling in Middle Earth. Even so, there is a ton of variety in loot. I'm not sure why you never saw it. Higher level characters look a lot more distinctive than they do in WoW, where everyone grinds until they all have the same old tier X gear or crafted class set. No differentiation at all. I'm glad for games that are more than just lusting after the uber gear.

Ale




And see this is where I differ.   I want a game where you can lust after uber gear, but you aren't 100% required to go into a raid to get it.    For instance:   you are a average joe fighting high level mobs for months both doing quests and in small groups or something simliar (non raid).    BLING!    You hit the jackpot on a random drop and get an uber item.

I don't understand why there has to be either all uber item raid dependencies, or NO uber items at all.    Why can't there just be uber items that randomly and very rarely drop in the world to make things interesting?   I mean it seems like devs either go all the way toward raiding, or they take out uber loot altogether.    There should be able to be loot that is randomly dropped for anyone very very rarely that is uber.     This isn't a hard concept.

I find it an incredibly simple concept, actually.

It is ESSENTIAL to keep a balance in the game that rewards effort and investment over random chance, or there'd be absolutely no point in the end-game activities for most people.

It'd be like society handing out millions of dollards - at random - to a few people just because it'd be neat for them. How pissed do you think the rest would be?
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2008, 10:15:07 AM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on May 19, 2008, 06:00:25 AM



It'd be like society handing out millions of dollards - at random - to a few people just because it'd be neat for them. How pissed do you think the rest would be?

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DArtagnan
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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2008, 10:26:31 AM »

Quote from: Gryndyl on May 19, 2008, 10:15:07 AM



It'd be like society handing out millions of dollards - at random - to a few people just because it'd be neat for them. How pissed do you think the rest would be?

I'm not sure how lotteries function in the US, but where I'm from it's funded by people paying to play - in one way or the other, and it's optional.

It's not a society-based game that randomly selects people and pays them millions of dollars, whilst requiring the rest to work for a living - if they want to be paid. Not that society is a model i'd base a game design on - especially not the US society - but it should serve to get the point across.

I should think the distinction is pretty clear, and even if it's not, I think most people tend to feel slightly unfortunate when people win millions and they themselves don't.

I know that i'd feel pretty miffed after having worked for months or even years to get that legendary sword, only to witness a bunch of people running around with equally (or more) powerful weapons that they just happened to find on a mob. Think about it - either the drop rate will be too low and those of you who'd like it to be possible would bitch about never finding anything so the system is pointless, or it'd be too high and effectively destroy the itemization balance. If they made the drop rate suitably tiny (as in 1 in every 1000 players would ever find anything to compare with raid gear), then i'd be fine - personally - but even then I estimate many hard-core raiders would be dissatisfied.

It just doesn't work.

Life isn't fair, but games should try to be as they're made to entertain as their primary function. There will always be people who "don't mind" imbalance, at least until they're the victim of it. But they have to strive to please the majority and live with displeasing the few who'd benefit from imbalance - or they might as well give up the quest of getting a return profit from their hard work.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 10:38:44 AM by DArtagnan » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2008, 12:54:37 PM »

I think the key lies in balancing the disparity between raid gear, crafted gear, and looted gear.

I agree that raid gear should be the most elite. Unfortunately what a lot of MMOs do is make raid gear so much more elite than anything else that crafters and soloers/small groupers feel like there's no point. Even the best of their best is going to be laughable in comparison to raid drops.

In that sense, I like what Conan is doing by making only crafted items have slots for specialization, and making raid drops more raid-oriented. This gives people incentive to own pieces from various sources. Even if I have a full set of raid gear, it's likely I'll want a full set of high-end crafted gear when I'm out soloing that I can specialize to my playstyle.
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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2008, 02:07:48 PM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on May 19, 2008, 10:26:31 AM

Quote from: Gryndyl on May 19, 2008, 10:15:07 AM



It'd be like society handing out millions of dollards - at random - to a few people just because it'd be neat for them. How pissed do you think the rest would be?

I'm not sure how lotteries function in the US, but where I'm from it's funded by people paying to play - in one way or the other, and it's optional.

It's not a society-based game that randomly selects people and pays them millions of dollars, whilst requiring the rest to work for a living - if they want to be paid. Not that society is a model i'd base a game design on - especially not the US society - but it should serve to get the point across.

I should think the distinction is pretty clear, and even if it's not, I think most people tend to feel slightly unfortunate when people win millions and they themselves don't.

I know that i'd feel pretty miffed after having worked for months or even years to get that legendary sword, only to witness a bunch of people running around with equally (or more) powerful weapons that they just happened to find on a mob. Think about it - either the drop rate will be too low and those of you who'd like it to be possible would bitch about never finding anything so the system is pointless, or it'd be too high and effectively destroy the itemization balance. If they made the drop rate suitably tiny (as in 1 in every 1000 players would ever find anything to compare with raid gear), then i'd be fine - personally - but even then I estimate many hard-core raiders would be dissatisfied.

It just doesn't work.

Life isn't fair, but games should try to be as they're made to entertain as their primary function. There will always be people who "don't mind" imbalance, at least until they're the victim of it. But they have to strive to please the majority and live with displeasing the few who'd benefit from imbalance - or they might as well give up the quest of getting a return profit from their hard work.

Eek! Maybe I needed to have stuck a smiley on that post. Was just joking, really.  I get where you're coming from.

From my perspective, as someone who has never been on a raid in any of the dozens of MMOs I've played and who doesn't do very much PvPing, I generally don't give a rip what someone else is carrying around. As long as I'm happy with whatever weapon, etc.  I've got then it doesn't matter much to me if C0nAnlol is running around with a plus 80 flaming loincloth. I think there should be cool items available in all categories. If some items have to be niftier than others to compensate for time spent, that's ok by me.

In past games, I generally have had to get a good weapon by collecting large quantities of a resource, cornering the auction house market and ruthlessly trading in order to generate enough scratch to buy a single nice item.
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« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2008, 03:36:28 PM »

Quote

Eek! Maybe I needed to have stuck a smiley on that post. Was just joking, really.  I get where you're coming from.

From my perspective, as someone who has never been on a raid in any of the dozens of MMOs I've played and who doesn't do very much PvPing, I generally don't give a rip what someone else is carrying around. As long as I'm happy with whatever weapon, etc.  I've got then it doesn't matter much to me if C0nAnlol is running around with a plus 80 flaming loincloth. I think there should be cool items available in all categories. If some items have to be niftier than others to compensate for time spent, that's ok by me.

In past games, I generally have had to get a good weapon by collecting large quantities of a resource, cornering the auction house market and ruthlessly trading in order to generate enough scratch to buy a single nice item.

Believe it or not, I don't care much about what other people are carrying around either.

I've been both casual and hardcore, and I've raided a lot and PvP'ed quite a bit. The only thing I have against the kind of loot system MsDuncan seems to advocate is that it would remove a HUGE part of what drives those kinds of end-game activites. There simply has to be a great reward for that kind of effort, and loot seems to be the obvious choice in that regard.

Nothing else makes much sense to me, really.

One of the primary reasons I got sick of WoW was the fact that they introduced on-par gear way too early after they launched the first expansion (and will repeat that direction with WotLK), which trivialises your efforts during raids - in particular regarding the legendary items. It was a kick in the face of those few who'd worked so hard to get them - and much the same thing happened when they went away from the old ranking system in PvP. Not that I was a victim, but boy did I sympathise with those who'd poured literally months in a row into getting a high rank, only to have it mean absolutely nothing because Blizzard made a horrible PvP design decision in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 03:38:11 PM by DArtagnan » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2008, 06:46:13 PM »

Someday someone will combine MMOs with the loot system of a Diablo and the greatest game off all time will be the result. 
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2008, 07:32:35 PM »

Quote from: iloveplywood on May 19, 2008, 06:46:13 PM

Someday someone will combine MMOs with the loot system of a Diablo and the greatest game off all time will be the result. 

Hellgate London?  disgust
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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2008, 09:08:14 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on May 19, 2008, 07:32:35 PM

Quote from: iloveplywood on May 19, 2008, 06:46:13 PM

Someday someone will combine MMOs with the loot system of a Diablo and the greatest game off all time will be the result. 

Hellgate London?  disgust

Now THATS funny.. eek nod
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« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2008, 09:26:22 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on May 19, 2008, 09:08:14 PM

Quote from: Destructor on May 19, 2008, 07:32:35 PM

Quote from: iloveplywood on May 19, 2008, 06:46:13 PM

Someday someone will combine MMOs with the loot system of a Diablo and the greatest game off all time will be the result. 

Hellgate London?  disgust

Now THATS funny.. eek nod

I wanted to throw rotten fruit at him ...
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« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2008, 11:57:12 PM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on May 19, 2008, 06:00:25 AM

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 10:11:45 PM

Quote from: Alefroth on May 18, 2008, 06:13:35 PM

Quote from: msduncan on May 18, 2008, 01:06:12 PM

Quote from: Arclight on May 18, 2008, 10:30:13 AM

Yeah pure drops for gear hasn't been great for me yet.(lv.14)
Quest rewards, and merchant stuff is the way to go so far.

This saddens me as this sounds precisely how the loot system for LOTRO is.    Crafting and Quest rewards are where the good loot comes from.    For those of you that didn't have the misfortune of seeing the effects of this long-term in LOTRO, let me give you a peek of the future of a game that goes this loot-route:

In about 40 levels...you will look around and notice that everyone looks the same and has the same gear.    Very very boring.     A system that mixes random valuable rares in, you have a huge variety of people wearing a huge variety of things.    THis will not happen in a game that forms their loot system like what LOTRO or seemingly AOC does.     

And for the record:   people claimed in the early life of LOTRO that the loot system probably wasn't finished.    Well... it was.   And it continued it's suckage to this very day.     

frown   I'll pass.

LotRO kind of has a framework they must stay within. There wasn't a lot of bling in Middle Earth. Even so, there is a ton of variety in loot. I'm not sure why you never saw it. Higher level characters look a lot more distinctive than they do in WoW, where everyone grinds until they all have the same old tier X gear or crafted class set. No differentiation at all. I'm glad for games that are more than just lusting after the uber gear.

Ale




And see this is where I differ.   I want a game where you can lust after uber gear, but you aren't 100% required to go into a raid to get it.    For instance:   you are a average joe fighting high level mobs for months both doing quests and in small groups or something simliar (non raid).    BLING!    You hit the jackpot on a random drop and get an uber item.

I don't understand why there has to be either all uber item raid dependencies, or NO uber items at all.    Why can't there just be uber items that randomly and very rarely drop in the world to make things interesting?   I mean it seems like devs either go all the way toward raiding, or they take out uber loot altogether.    There should be able to be loot that is randomly dropped for anyone very very rarely that is uber.     This isn't a hard concept.

I find it an incredibly simple concept, actually.

It is ESSENTIAL to keep a balance in the game that rewards effort and investment over random chance, or there'd be absolutely no point in the end-game activities for most people.

It'd be like society handing out millions of dollards - at random - to a few people just because it'd be neat for them. How pissed do you think the rest would be?

I totally support a combination of uber loot for uber raiding no-sleepers, and also the ultra rare opportunity that a rare item is out there somewhere in the wild.    And also an increased change of drop with rare or very hard to kill creatures, etc.

World of Warcraft got it fairly well right.    LOTRO did everything wrong.
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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2008, 12:39:02 PM »

For me, the Destiny quests (1-20) gave some solid reward items that remained better than what I could find or buy for some time. My level 26 char is still using some Level 5 and 10 rare type reward items (Destiny quest rewards) because the modifiers are better than what's available later.

I think the danger of giving some mega items for a particular mob or boss in the regular (non-instanced) MMO portion of the game is that people inevitably will just camp the boss forever in hopes of getting something (or more copies of something). I really think it hurts MMO immersion when you have so many people (or multiple teams) just sitting bored in the grass waiting for something to show up. I'm mostly fond of the game but I wish it had just a little more mini-instancing to avoid this. I'm pretty well sick of camping and farming in MMOs (though I don't see it as the players' fault -- to me farming usually just indicates someone's so bored with the game, that trawling through the same instance/mission/quest over and over is more interesting than continuing to move forward in the game/storyline).

I'm hoping after the game's been out for a while, there'll be more diversity in player levels and we won't be bunching up like bananas on certain quest locations.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 12:42:28 PM by Blackjack » Logged

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