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Author Topic: Am I the only one that would like a good old fashioned pay to play MMO?  (Read 921 times)
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msduncan
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« on: May 29, 2013, 11:30:52 AM »


Everyone is going F2P.    Frankly, I just want to pay 15 bucks a month on a game and have everything available to me without getting beat over my face with in app purchases.     I want to be able to find those cool mounts, epic armor sets, etc without having to get out my wallet and break the illusion of the game.    I want to be able to know that the dude that fan past me with that amazing vanity pet found him by camping an obscure area where it spawns once every two weeks.

I am beginning to HATE F2P, and I'm wondering when someone is going to go back to the old pay every month model.    Now I'm fearing that Titan (whatever it is remade into) is going to be F2P with all the same stupid crap as the rest of the F2P games out there.

That dude that just ran by on that amazing flaming horse?   Yeah... he's been playing the game for 10 minutes and whipped out his visa card to fork out $40.    No skills, patience, or in game savvy necessary.
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metallicorphan
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 12:28:08 PM »

not that far from what we were talking about in the FF14 article/thread on CVG yesterday


one guys comment(which got marked down 16 times)
Quote
One reason to not buy this game: subscription.

which got a few replies,mine was first(this was from the article 10 things about FF 14,and one of them said that it was to last 10 years)
Quote
this game is going to last 10 years you know(Final Fantasy 11 is now in its 11th year),its not like your single player games or Multiplayer games that last a few months at most

other people's replies to the first quote
Quote
I'd rather play a monthly subscription than play a Free to play, Pay to win and then Rip you off some more with overpriced DLC and cosmetic items. Generally I find that subscription based MMO's tend to be far greater in scale much better all round than the lower budget free to play clones (not a guarantee of course). I also hate being gouged by FTP games that charge way to much for simple things like unlocking classes and races let alone the overpriced extra character slots access to normal features of online games.

Quote
MMO NEED money for server upkeep, profit and content development. Free to pay are an unreliable payment base as they need to waste resources making cash shop items and content is slow to release. Lets compare. DCUO is a free to pay game the world is small, content is rehashed lvling dungeon and its a 2 year old game with only 7 dlc that are no bigger then a content patch. FFXI pay to play, we have 3 large dimensions to explore Vena'diel, The past of vena'diel, and Abyssea. the world is based from 3 large land masses. Not to mention alot of indoor and outdoor content. in its second year it has WAY more content DCUO did.


MMO's are far and few between for me,the most successful for me has been Final Fantasy 11.

World of Warcraft-I demoed,but PC was not up to scratch at the time(probably still isn't)

Phantasy Star Universe Online-360 but wasn't impressed with it

Star Wars Galaxies-PC,I came to this too late really,i got ridiculed by someone when i asked what was probably a very basic question..but i did like travelling to different planets and finding places from the movies..but thats pretty much all i did,when the Obi Wan expansion came out,what little love i had for SWG died with it and i quit

DC Universe Online-PS3,it was good flying about but i was a bit turned off by the gameplay and even the looks,that was F2P

If i have an experience like FF11(which still stands as my favourite time with Video Games) then i will gladly pay the £8 a month



Saying that though i know that Myto is in the F2P Forsaken Worlds,i am sure she has paid something for the little stuff,but she still talks about that game all the time and from what i gather she is on a lot(I need to send her an email,not spoke to her for a couple of months)


I also have to think why people are so against paying £8 a month,Games Magazines are £5.99,and last what?,an hour,LOL..I guess it all depends how much you will be playing it
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ericb
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 05:00:12 PM »

Sub based models are basically dead at this point.  Just about every MMO that's gone F2P has been more successful that way.  KOTOR saw their monthly revenue double.  Games on the verge of shutting down are more popular than six months before the conversion.  I thought Rift might ride it out along Final Fantasy and WoW but even they're switching next month.  And forget Blizzard's Titan as it looks like it's not even coming out until 2016 at this point. 

I think if you want a classic high fantasy sub based MMO then FF14 is going to be your only choice.
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Gratch
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 05:12:16 PM »

I'm fine with either model, especially since I treat MMO's like big single player RPG's anyways (I'm nearly 100% a solo PvE player).  I have yet to find any game (MMO or otherwise) that keeps my interest for more than a month or two, so I'll either pay a little extra for some goodies in a F2P game, or I'll sub to a P2P for a month or two then quit.  Either way works for me and the investment ends up being about the same.

For those who spend years playing a single MMO or who are heavily involved in the competitive side of them, I can see F2P getting frustrating very quickly.

Quote
I think if you want a classic high fantasy sub based MMO then FF14 is going to be your only choice.

While I think FF14 is going to be a very good MMO (based on what I've played of the beta), I worry that will be considered a failure simply because Squeenix will have very unrealistic expectations for the subscription model.  They are hitting the PS3 base as well though, so maybe that'll help give it a boost.  I hope so, as I can see myself spending lots of time with it.  smile
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 05:16:33 PM by Gratch » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 05:19:45 PM »

sounds like someone has a case of flaming horse envy.
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Blackjack
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 05:20:22 PM »

I would agree that people that pay monthly fees for mmorpgs are in theory most truly devoted to a game, and less likely to screw around and be jerks. Although that in fact has not been my experience over the years.  icon_smile I mean, I've seen a lot more spamming in F2Ps, but the jerk-factor is not much different.

I guess one could blame WoW for being so successful (I bought it early but it never did it for me) that no other big budget monthly fee game could ever really compete with it long-term. Or just the global economy in general slumping the last however many years.

I know people who actually spend more annually on a couple F2Ps (game-stores, perks, bonuses, cosmetics, extra slots, etc.) than they would've on $180/year MMOs. imho, it's just easier for people to stomach trying multiple F2Ps, than trying multiple monthly fee games. I mean, let's face it, devs/publishers want to make money. F2P is basically a lie -- they want to find ways to stealthily grab your money, right? paranoid

I guess at my worst, i was briefly paying monthly fees for two-three monthly fee mmorpgs here and there.

My feeling is if WoW ever truly fades away AND the global economy is suddenly doing gangbusters, then you might see traditional monthly fee mmorpgs return to favor. Gaming trends tend to happen in clusters, like a  follow the herd mentality. I seem to recall Turbine being the first with DDO and LOTRO to convert a big budget mmorpg from monthly fee to a F2P focus.

The sad, ironic thing with me is that by the time any mmorpg I've played has gone F2P (including LOTRO, City of Heroes, Star Trek Online, Champions, Age of Conan, SWTOR, Rift, etc.), I've already lost interest in the game, and going F2P hasn't revived any of my interest. I never quit those games because of subscription fees -- I either got bored or frustrated with the game, or some other game caught my eye and I went "oooh, shiny!" icon_razz

I'm curious about Marvel Heroes, and since that's built from the ground up as F2P, maybe I'd feel differently about it.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 08:14:50 PM by Blackjack » Logged

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skystride
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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 05:27:33 PM »

I was with you until you said you want to spawn camp for 2 weeks like it's 1999.

I'm annoyed with some of the F2P stuff.  Like Marvel Alliance gives you a permanent +5% magic drop rate if you pay $200.  That kind of gameplay changing thing is BS.  Flaming horse I don't give a crap about because even if they made it hard to get, I would never get it.  10 years ago, I could camp the plane of gods in EQ1 playing 48hrs non-stop to get that uber drop.  I was still in school back then.

And what skill is involved in acquiring these items? it's inevitably just a grind in every subscription based MMO.
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Roguetad
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 05:56:13 PM »

I like the buy to play model, where buying the game grants access to the full experience with no penalties.  I'm happy at that point to pay for the additional major content expansions that I want (like Guild Wars did).  I'm ok with an in-app store, as long as the real money purchases don't drastically change the gameplay.  If someone wants to pay $ to get an experience gain boost, more power to them.  As long as those boosts are not requried to level and experience the content normally. 
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Crawley
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 06:26:52 PM »

I like to have both payment options in the MMO - F2P + Subscription so you can pick and choose which way you want to go. For instance in LOTRO I went exclusively F2P. I did that because it was a game I kept going back to and their F2P model was fantastic the first few years with great deals. But in Star Wars: Old Republic, which I just started playing again, I knew I would grow tired of it in a few months so I went with the subscription model. The bonus with SWTOR subscription (and LOTRO) is that you get points each month to spend in their respective stores.

Offering both models caters to both audiences and hopefully all MMOs offer this.

I also don't care so much about the cosmetic stuff people buy with $$. With SWTOR I've used my monthly allotment of coins to buy vanity stuff on the store and once I get this months allotment I'll be purchasing a ridiculously priced "mount". But if you still want unique mounts or items most of these games offer them via killing monsters, raids, holiday events or whatever which still offers that old school feel.

For me though I have 0 interest of spending as much time I used to trying to get unique items. I'll pay the few bucks if I really want something. But typically don't even bother doing that - nice to have the option though.
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tcweidner
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 10:03:12 PM »

I just dont like where it leads game design.  Lets see, lets design in some really annoying crap in the game, but give players a way to " buy" their way around it. ( that should make us a pretty penny)
or
Gee art dept that is a really sick armor set you got there, I know, why waste it on the regular folks,  lets make people have to buy it.

It just makes it to easy to go down the wrong path with monetization always lurking behind every decision, and even if a design/producer may be honestly good intentioned, I am sure there is a bean counting suit above them that isnt.
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Crawley
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2013, 12:35:20 AM »

The slippery slope thing doesn't bother me at this point. If the the game is nickle and diming you for stupid stuff then people won't buy in to it. Takes care of itself.

For the purchasable slick armour stuff SWTOR does this currently. They have all these neat armor sets you can purchase in the store. But what they also allow is any item you purchase from the store you can put up on the regular auction house. Then players can buy it with the in-game money like they would normal auction house stuff. The pieces usually cost a fortune but usually not out of the realm of purchase if you know how to make money.

For LOTRO you can earn points for completing achievements that allows you to purchase in-store items. Typically just by playing you'll earn enough to buy a few things but if you're doing some serious purchases you'll need to grind. I have no interest in doing the grinding but that's another option that opens the store items to regular players.

So I think these games can be smart about how they approach the store bought vs in-game items. The two real-world examples I listed above sit perfectly fine with me.
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 09:00:10 PM »

EvE Online will probably remain with the pay model - at least for the foreseeable future.

And then there is ESO - have they announced a model yet?

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kronovan
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2013, 03:58:51 PM »

I really like the F2P model because IMO it forces the dev's to always face the music. My experience with the early subscription MMOs was dev's making bone-headed decisions without much concern that it pissed off a majority of the fanbase - remember Star Wars Galaxies? That said, I don't like F2P where a player that doesn't spend a $ is nerfed big time -EQ2 anyone- or when the perks for $'ing players are so big that it causes imbalance.

If all F2P games were as truly F2P as Vanguard SoH and Shin Megami Tensei Online, then I'd be as happy as all hell and probably play them more. And no, I don't find just because players are paying for a subscription they're any better behaved. I find that's much more determined by the MMO's theme, genre and the slice of the gaming demographic that it attracts.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 04:01:19 PM by kronovan » Logged
TheEgoWhip
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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2013, 04:03:44 AM »

Maybe i should have stuck this link here, it seems to fit the thread.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/193520/Wargaming_kicks_paytowin_monetization_to_the_curb.php
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rittchard
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 03:42:29 AM »

I think in either case it all boils down to solid game design.  F2P can certainly go wrong, and there are tons of examples of it (especially if you play iOS games).  But when executed properly I do believe F2P as a whole has been a really good thing for MMOs.  If you design an F2P game, inherently you have to solidify a dedicated fanbase that is addicted to it based solely on its gaming merits.  In general that means focusing on making things FUN, and efficiently fun.  The old fashioned model was designed to have long level curves and grinding and waiting and extended travel times, because they needed to keep people playing physically for more time to ensure they renewed their monthly fee.  The system worked because there weren't that many alternative options.  In today's F2P game it's actually the opposite, there's an emphasis on making sure you are actually having fun and doing what you want to do while you're on.  The more you love the game, the more you might want to support it with an in-game purchase.

For a monthly fee game to really work in today's environment, it really needs to stand out above and beyond the crowd, and have some hook that justifies the monthly fee.  Maybe it's consistently evolving content, or actual people online serving as DMs or NPCs...  the days where a company claims the fees are to maintain support of their servers are really over.  I don't think anyone buys that anymore. 
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