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Author Topic: (WoW) Secondary Skills  (Read 2350 times)
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Butterknife
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« on: December 30, 2004, 06:44:52 PM »

Does anyone else think the secondary skills aren't as fun as they used to be?  I guess I feel that in order to be enjoyable, the skills have to be useful, and since they've been toned down by the latest patch, they no longer seem to be useful, making them no longer any fun.

I've been fishing and cooking, neglecting first aid as my primary character is a Priest and I didn't feel I needed it.  From what I've seen post-patch, I can't catch anything but fish, and they only sell for a copper piece now.  I can kill an enemy and get as much as a silver for it, and always at least 35 coppers for it.  It takes a fraction of the time and gains me experience as well.

First aid from what I understand has been reduced to what cooking was all along, just a way to decrease downtime between battles.  But unless I'm missing something, it has lost it's usefulness as well from what I understand.

Why not just remove fishing from the game altogether?  At this point, I see no more purpose to it.  It used to be fun, but now it isn't.  You used to be able to make money off of it, and there was a fun element to not knowing what you would catch.  As of right now, I know what I will catch -- just fish.  And one of two kinds, depending on where I am.  So there is no "Look, a locked chest!  I wonder what's in it?" any more, just "gee, another bristle whisker catfish, 1 copper piece ..."
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EngineNo9
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2004, 06:53:11 PM »

Word to your mother!
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Exodor
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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2004, 07:01:47 PM »

Quote from: "Butterknife"


First aid from what I understand has been reduced to what cooking was all along, just a way to decrease downtime between battles.  But unless I'm missing something, it has lost it's usefulness as well from what I understand.


As far as I can tell, first-aid was always meant to be used out of combat.  That's how the early bandages worked - why would the higher-level items work differently?

Quote
Why not just remove fishing from the game altogether?  At this point, I see no more purpose to it.  It used to be fun, but now it isn't.  You used to be able to make money off of it, and there was a fun element to not knowing what you would catch.  As of right now, I know what I will catch -- just fish.  And one of two kinds, depending on where I am.  So there is no "Look, a locked chest!  I wonder what's in it?" any more, just "gee, another bristle whisker catfish, 1 copper piece ..."


Hunters use fishing to get food for their pets.  Everyone else can cook that cook to reduce downtime.
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Butterknife
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2004, 07:11:40 PM »

Quote from: "Exodor"
Quote from: "Butterknife"


First aid from what I understand has been reduced to what cooking was all along, just a way to decrease downtime between battles.  But unless I'm missing something, it has lost it's usefulness as well from what I understand.


As far as I can tell, first-aid was always meant to be used out of combat.  That's how the early bandages worked - why would the higher-level items work differently?

Quote
Why not just remove fishing from the game altogether?  At this point, I see no more purpose to it.  It used to be fun, but now it isn't.  You used to be able to make money off of it, and there was a fun element to not knowing what you would catch.  As of right now, I know what I will catch -- just fish.  And one of two kinds, depending on where I am.  So there is no "Look, a locked chest!  I wonder what's in it?" any more, just "gee, another bristle whisker catfish, 1 copper piece ..."


Hunters use fishing to get food for their pets.  Everyone else can cook that cook to reduce downtime.


I know all this.  You miss my main point -- reducing downtime is not fun.  Here's the thing -- first aid was "fun" because you could use it as a way to heal, even if you weren't a healer.  Even in a battle, assuming you could keep from getting hit.  Fishing was "fun" because you could catch random stuff, you never knew what you might get.  And, you could make money off of that stuff.  Cooking never really was all that fun in the first place, mainly I think because the food has no real variety in it's effects (everything pretty much restores health and mana, and higher levels raise your spirit and stamina for a few minutes.  There isn't much variety in what the food does for you -- why not have recipes that increase intelligence?  Or make you shoot off sparks when you are hit?  etc.)  So my point is not that I don't understand what the purpose of the secondary skills are, my point is that they have become less fun and therefore worth even less to the game than the pets, as the pets, at least, are "unique" in that everyone does not have them.
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Exodor
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2004, 07:26:38 PM »

Quote from: "Butterknife"

I know all this.  You miss my main point -- reducing downtime is not fun.  Here's the thing -- first aid was "fun" because you could use it as a way to heal, even if you weren't a healer.  Even in a battle, assuming you could keep from getting hit.  Fishing was "fun" because you could catch random stuff, you never knew what you might get.  And, you could make money off of that stuff.


I'm with you on fishing - I know that fishing macros were a problem, but eliminating all catches except fish is not a good solution.  I hope they up the "drop rate" on other items a bit.

I think you're already shown why first aid is meant to be for downtime - because allowing in-combat heals steps all over the toes of the healing classes, which should be the only way other than potions to heal during combat.  Potions either have to be purchased or produced with alchemy, and taking alchemy means you can't take other professions.  First Aid is available to everyone, as is fishing, which is why I think they shouldn't be as valuable as the actual trade skills.
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scubabbl
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2004, 08:15:02 PM »

I'm not much of a fisherman, so I can't really comment on that. But I do practice a lot of first aid, herbalism, and Alchemy. Between the 3, I have nearly 0 downtime when fighting. I pick my fights so they don't kill me, and if my health is down a lot afterwards, I slap on a heavy wool bandange (The best I can do right now) and drive on. Those 5 seconds spent applying it gets me rolling again in a split second.

In fights, I can drink a health potion if I bit off more than I could chew in the fight. That, combined with my rogue skills keeps me trucking. I don't really see how they gimped First Aid. It's a handy skill to have a for me, keeps my downtime to about, 5 seconds between fights, which to me, equals no downtime at all. It doesn't reduce my downtime, it makes it 0, which is fun.

Oh, and mad props to Jaler for being a great cook. His food also contributes to my 0 down time factor.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2004, 08:38:07 PM »

I can see them making bandages "out of combat" only items, the same as food and drink.  If you want in-combat healing, buy some potions, right?

As for fishing, I remember catching a really good pair of boots in Stormwind when my skill was below 50.  It actually kept me fishing.  But since the odds of getting an item are now so low, there is no reason to do so anymore, at least for me (Im an enchanter, so any green item is a good item).

However, to be fair on this issue, I think they may be having problems with people (ab)using macroing programs and using it to farm gold.  While it was a pain in the ass and I didnt like it, FFXI may have been on the right track by requiring people to have bait.  It acts as an in-game limiter on how much you can fish, and it will make it a pasttime rather than something a person can do for hours on end.

They could also put more mobs wandering shorelines, and limit the fishing levels in 'safe' areas, since their goal isnt to ruin fishing, but to make sure its being done by someone at their keyboard, rather than from a macro while they sleep.
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ChrisGwinn
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2004, 08:43:01 PM »

In theory, you can use first aid on someone else in combat.  It just doesn't seem that useful though.

Fishing apparently still occasionally returns non-fish items, just very rarely.  

I like cooking, but not for any good reason.  

I suppose that's why they're secondary skills.
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Butterknife
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2004, 08:45:44 PM »

Quote
I don't really see how they gimped First Aid. It's a handy skill to have a for me, keeps my downtime to about, 5 seconds between fights, which to me, equals no downtime at all. It doesn't reduce my downtime, it makes it 0, which is fun.


I stand corrected on First Aid, as I said in my above post I am not very familiar with it as a skill.

Quote
As for fishing, I remember catching a really good pair of boots in Stormwind when my skill was below 50.


Before or after the latest patch?  I'm guessing it was before.

Anybody care to argue that cooking has been fun all along?  slywink

I totally agree with unbreakable that the fishing exploit with the macros should have been changed in a different manner.  Stopping the exploit by effectively destroying the skill, in my mind, is a poor way to "fix" the problem.  Come on Blizzard, you can figure out a better way to stop people from using bots than that!  What's to stop the next person from making a bot that just slaughters enemies in a particular area over and over for money?  Not really much difference between that and a fishing bot, in the end, and you can't take combat out of the game, or what do you have left?
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Toe
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2004, 08:56:31 PM »

I have 300 cooking and 298 in fishing currently smile

I can make the following "cool" foods with cooking (which was raised almost entirely through fishing smile) besides the +stamina/+spirit stuff.

Dragonbreath Chilli:
Occasionally belch flame at enemies struck in melee for the next 10 min.

Grilled Squid:
Restores 874 health over 27 sec. Must remain seated while eating. If you eat for 10 seconds will also increase your Agility by 10 for 10 min. (rogues love this stuff).

Nightfin Soup:
Restores 874 health over 27 sec. Must remain seated while eating. Also restores 8 Mana every 5 seconds for 10 min. (yummy yummy for priest like me).

Poached Sunscale Salmon
Restores 874 health over 27 sec. Must remain seated while eating. Also restores 6 health every 5 seconds for 10 min.

The final cool recipe I want is at the end of a high level instance, so have not gotten it yet, but I am really drooling over it...

Goldthorn Tea
Requires Level 25
Use: Restores 1344 mana over 27 sec. Must remain seated while drinking.
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Gryndyl
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2004, 09:03:07 PM »

You can still catch items while fishing. Just last night I caught a "message in a bottle" that was an armor scroll.
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Semaj
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2004, 09:11:58 PM »

Most of those are bought (Cooking0 in Fenaras right?

I was close to buying them and putting htem in storage and went: meh I'll just fly back and get em when I have the cooking.... smile
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Toe
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2004, 11:06:22 PM »

Quote from: "Semaj"
Most of those are bought (Cooking0 in Fenaras right?

I was close to buying them and putting htem in storage and went: meh I'll just fly back and get em when I have the cooking.... smile


Hmm, i can not remember exactly where i got them all. I think i got one in Booty Bay, but can not remember. I got several in Steamwheel (i think that is the name) which is the little port on the coast (east) of Tanaris.
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Butterknife
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2004, 04:19:26 PM »

Quote from: "Gryndyl"
You can still catch items while fishing. Just last night I caught a "message in a bottle" that was an armor scroll.


Well, you can, but most likely you won't.  I wanted a little evidence for my claim, so I spent a solid half-hour fishing in the Zoram Strand, Ashenvale, on the coast by the Zoram'gar Outpost.

My level is 26, my fishing skill is 225.  I brought some bait as well, to test the difference with bait vs. without.  The bait was +100 to fishing skill, lasts 5 minutes.

Basically, the bait made no difference to what I caught, when I used it (about half the time).  I caught the following things:

42 Raw Rainbow Fin Albacore
18 Oily Blackmouth
8 Firefin Snapper

All fish.  Nothing else.  I used to be able to pull in some clams, Venture company crates, messages in bottles, etc. in this spot.  In a half hour's time, I was sure to find multiple other things.  Last night, nothing but fish.

Since I'm an alchemist, I didn't go away completely empty handed (the blackmouth and firefin can be used for potions) but there are multiple other skill sets in the game, a non-alchemist would have left with approximately nothing for a half-hour's worth of time.  So, fishing becomes useful to two classes in the game (even though everyone gets it): Alchemists, and Hunters.  I can't see a use for any other class as the skill currently stands.
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