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Author Topic: (WoW) New patch today, 12/21  (Read 11113 times)
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Semaj
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« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2004, 12:37:19 PM »

I've grouped with a few dozen warriors... and when I say a few dozen I mean more than once for 5 mins.

A Defensive specced Warrior is 10 times the tank a paladin is.  Yes yes the paladin can heal, which oddly enough only generates agro when your healing someone else smile.  Yes the paladin is way more versative and tends to deal way more damage.  

I am not saying warriors are better than palaldins, so help me god if any of you start complaning on how much warriors suck now, I'm going to point to the dead horse you are all beating.  We accept they are not gods anymore...

But I am saying, as much as you gripe about how warriors and not end end all and be all of classes anymore, they are not a completely useless class, they are not a waste of space.  They can do quite a few things well, they are just not the solo gods that Paladins, Rogues and Hunters are.  (although Rogues and paladins somewhat took a hit to soloing speed with this patch, they still are very good at it)  They are not the damage gods Mages are.  Blizzard has admitted they are broken, and is trying ot fix them, little by little, as opposed to making them the broken things they were when they first came out and everyone had one.

How about we all agree some classes are clearly better than others, and stop screaming about how much some suck.
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Koz
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« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2004, 02:22:56 PM »

But that's just not in the whine-about-every-nerf MMO spirit.
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Scott
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« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2004, 02:23:18 PM »

Quote
In other news, Blink apparently WAS fixed.

I've had more problems with blink after the patch and blinking through the floor and falling to my death.  It was amusing the first time, but got old.  I've learned not to blink in towns now.
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« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2004, 04:09:00 PM »

Quote from: "Semaj"
They are not the damage gods Mages are.  


Mages aren't damage gods.  Those are Rogues.  This is largely thanks to the fact that +Spell Damage gear sucks and/or there isn't enough of it.

Now, if Mages got as high a chance to critical with spells per point of INT like Rogues get to critical with melee per point of AGI, I'd be a happy boy...

Quote
Blizzard has admitted they are broken, and is trying ot fix them, little by little, as opposed to making them the broken things they were when they first came out and everyone had one.


Where have they admitted this?  I'm not trolling, I seriously don't know and would love to see it so I can sleep at night.   :wink:
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morlac
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« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2004, 04:10:14 PM »

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Well, the patch must have broken something big time...servers been down now for over 2 hours.


After the the most craptasticly slow patch speeds I have *ever* seen in an online game yesterday the servers are down today.  Hmmm.  Shades of EQ2.

In 24 hours more of downtime they will have EQ2 beaten.  :wink:


I belive BOTH games have now comped a free weekend of play.

In other news I can pee 400 feet further then anyone else.
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Koz
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« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2004, 04:28:04 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Semaj"
They are not the damage gods Mages are.  


Mages aren't damage gods.  Those are Rogues.  This is largely thanks to the fact that +Spell Damage gear sucks and/or there isn't enough of it.

Now, if Mages got as high a chance to critical with spells per point of INT like Rogues get to critical with melee per point of AGI, I'd be a happy boy...


Eh, that's just not empirically true. A rogue that relies on criticals for damage (as mine does) will tell you that you aren't going to dish out the damage every fight. Sometimes a mob will go down in three hits, sometimes a mob two levels lower than you will beat you because you miss eight times in a row.

Rogues have the potential to do the most damage, but they're a lot more inconsistent than a mage is. Having played both classes to the mid 20's in retail I'd have to say their killing times and leveling speeds have been pretty much the same. In fact I'd say mages tend to do more damage overall, but their downtimes are much greater as well.
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Jumangi
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« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2004, 06:03:48 PM »

Man I can see things never change. I havn't been in a MMO since SWG but I can still see we have the ususal howls of outrage, and talk of how their "killing the game" that come with every single patch thats ever been released. Its amazing how these games keep going with all the screwups the developers keep doing huh?  :roll:
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« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2004, 07:24:13 PM »

Quote from: "Jumangi"
Man I can see things never change. I havn't been in a MMO since SWG but I can still see we have the ususal howls of outrage, and talk of how their "killing the game" that come with every single patch thats ever been released. Its amazing how these games keep going with all the screwups the developers keep doing huh?  :roll:
Do you play World of Warcraft?

Do you play a Warrior?

Do you play on a PvP server?

If you answer "No" to any of the above questions, your point is null and void.

Good day.
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Koz
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« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2004, 09:13:26 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Jumangi"
Man I can see things never change. I havn't been in a MMO since SWG but I can still see we have the ususal howls of outrage, and talk of how their "killing the game" that come with every single patch thats ever been released. Its amazing how these games keep going with all the screwups the developers keep doing huh?  :roll:
Do you play World of Warcraft?

Do you play a Warrior?

Do you play on a PvP server?

If you answer "No" to any of the above questions, your point is null and void.

Good day.


Jumangi, being insulted by Lord Ebonstone is a sign of great intelligence. I was hoping I would get called a newb because I said mages did more damage than rogues, but alas, you have proven to be the more cunning, and so I salute you.
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Semaj
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Heh
« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2004, 09:17:24 PM »

Everyone goes through crapfests known as missing... but when damage is done, they do it in large amounts.  Mages do a HUGE amount of damage, but things are immune/resist enough to make life very difficult for a high end mage.


As far as PVO, you are totally right,.. PVP with a warrior is a joke... no arguement,.. I cant imagine making a warrior on a pvp server other than for humor value.   But honestly... Who pkills solo?  Its usually large groups in pkilling and a class that can help out more in a group setting will go a lot farther in pvp than a solo machine...

Course I get to test this out when I make my PVP guy (As opposed to PVE with his PVP flag on about as much as off...) and check it out...
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Toe
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« Reply #90 on: December 24, 2004, 02:00:08 AM »

Quote from: "Semaj"

A Defensive specced Warrior is 10 times the tank a paladin is.  Yes yes the paladin can heal, which oddly enough only generates agro when your healing someone else smile.  Yes the paladin is way more versative and tends to deal way more damage.  


That is not true. You are aware that paladins have a handy agro-generateing aura don't you? Must be nice to automatically passively generate agro above and beyond your weapon damage. Speaking of which, damage done is one of the primary aspects of agro managment. If a class can "deal way more damage" than another then they are that much more ahead in the agro managment game.

Quote from: "Semaj"
I am not saying warriors are better than palaldins, so help me god if any of you start complaning on how much warriors suck now, I'm going to point to the dead horse you are all beating.  We accept they are not gods anymore...


They never were gods, least when I started beta. They were on par with the other classes. Why does everything think warriors are asking to be gods? They just want to be brought up to par. And yet, with ever patch they fall further and further behind the other classes in every single aspect of the game.

I am tired of argueing though because people that I am arguing with here are just plan ignorant of the warrior class and class balance in general.
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« Reply #91 on: December 24, 2004, 05:15:22 AM »

Quote from: "Koz"
I was hoping I would get called a newb because I said mages did more damage than rogues, but alas, you have proven to be the more cunning, and so I salute you.


I didn't call Jumangi a newb.  At best I was calling him out as a troll, posting the typical anti-whining whining "look how enlightened I am to just shut up and take it" in a MMORPG thread.  I mean, until you've played a Warrior, especially in PvP, you have no idea how imbalanced the class is.  Hell, does Jumangi even play WoW?

I never intended to call you a newb, Koz, and I didn't.  The concept that Mages do more damage that Rogues do is, however, just dead wrong.  Do Rogues miss frequently?  Sure.  Does that matter?  No.  In the three seconds it takes me to cast a fireball, a Sinister Strike Rogue can make six attacks.  Even if you have a miss rate of 25%, you're still landing an average of 4.5 attacks per three seconds.  That's quite a few.

Koz, I'm not trying to be belligerent here.  The simple fact of the matter is, Rogues are the primary DPS class in the game.  If you want, I'll be happy to dig up some DPS-parsed logs of a level 60 group run through Scholomance which includes a Mage and a Rogue in the same party -- the Rogue ends up doing more than three times the Mage's damage.

Exactly why this happens is anyone's guess.  Some say Mages in WoW aren't the "glass cannons" they are in other games, and that it's by design.  Some say it's due to over-nerfing -- Rogues bitched quite a bit in closed beta, apparently, and are generally thought responsible for several Mage nerfs, especially the infamous Pyroblast castration, and additionally are thought responsible for the current ruination of the Warrior.  Some say it's a matter of equipment -- when a Rogue hits 60, he can still tweak his gear and go on raids for those "epic" weapons, while Mages get... their level 60 spells, the damage of which equipment doesn't alter in any significant way.

The truth is, always, somewhat a mix of all those factors.  "Epic" level spells that are raid drops or long quests or whatnot to obtain would be a fantastic step in the right direction, and would be a boatload of excitement too.  A clear developer statement on where they're going with the Mage, (is the Rogue supposed to be the only 'pure' DPS class in the game?  is the Hunter or the Mage supposed to do more damage at range?), would be lovely.  And hell, there are issues with the Mage class, including (comparatively) long downtimes, weak summoned water, ho-hum spell variety and utility, unexciting and cumbersome teleportation abilities, and an existing Resist issue that brings into question the whole point of resist gear at all if mobs and players two or more levels above the mage are innately going to resist 50%+ of the spells slung at them anyway.

But that last issue is a much bigger one that hurts the entire game -- as it stands, level comparison has far more to do with class functionality and damage output than any other factor in the game... which, imho, is poor design.
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Semaj
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« Reply #92 on: December 24, 2004, 01:09:51 PM »

Quote from: "Toe"

That is not true. You are aware that paladins have a handy agro-generateing aura don't you? Must be nice to automatically passively generate agro above and beyond your weapon damage. Speaking of which, damage done is one of the primary aspects of agro managment. If a class can "deal way more damage" than another then they are that much more ahead in the agro managment game.


Yes, you are right, they can agro better with the seal.  That being said, What I meant was when I was 45 and grouped with a 42 warrior he could tank mobs 10 times better than I could.  He might not be able to hold agro as well on a particular mob, but I was constantly getting my tail handed to me and having to heal while he could just plug away not needing half the heals I did.  Mind you this was with me having much better armor than he did.  He might have had a mildly higher agility off armor, but not enough to merit his ability to tank 3 mobs and only need a heal after 1 or 2 died.

While Agro management is huge, I wasnt arguing that as much as how you spec your warrior does determine his usefulness.  To me warriors are more of a "Skill based" class... as in the more skillful the person using him, the better the chances of the warrior not sucking.  Personally I'd like to see them give warriors a few more stance-related abilities and easier switching of stances... I think dropping the Dual Wielding penatly some might be nice too, but thats wishful thinking, lol...
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