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Author Topic: What would I miss minus Vista?  (Read 5766 times)
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Ridah
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« on: August 16, 2008, 12:53:08 AM »

Last week I bought a new PC for gaming and, as the trend seems to be, they don't include a Windows CD. I've been dying to reformat the computer because I hate feeling like there's HP's footprint on my machine, the problem is I don't know a single person, who in extension also does not know a single person, who uses Vista. So, lately I've been thinking about just going back to XP, not only because it's the only version of Windows I have access to but also for the possible increase in performance in my games. My question is, what games and/or features would I be missing without Vista? You can't use DX10 in GoW without Vista, or use Windows Live, right? Any big games in the future I'll miss?
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2008, 12:55:56 AM »

Vista is fine.........use it, love it......
There is no reason not to use it.
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2008, 12:56:23 AM »

I don't know about desktops but I do have a HP laptop that simply can not be downgraded to XP.  There are no drivers for about 3 different critical parts except Vista versions.
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2008, 12:59:50 AM »

Vista is your friend.
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2008, 02:52:56 AM »

Not sure why you would want to downgrade... just grab http://pcdecrapifier.com/ , wipe off the stuff you don't want, and enjoy.  Vista is fine - there is no noticeable hit in performance unless you're using really old hardware.  And as your computer came with Vista, I'll wager that isn't the case.
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Ridah
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2008, 04:28:47 AM »

It's not just the crap thats on my HD, its also the little partition thingy I want to get rid of. Besides, what is so different between the default Windows uninstaller?
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2008, 05:05:03 AM »

Quote from: Ridah on August 16, 2008, 04:28:47 AM

It's not just the crap thats on my HD, its also the little partition thingy I want to get rid of. Besides, what is so different between the default Windows uninstaller?

Then copy the Windows partition to a disk and reinstall/partition using that. Although I don't know why you are worried about a partition that is maybe a gig.

And my bigger question is, since this is a big deal to you, why on earth did you buy an HP which are notorious for all the crap they install and not giving you a Windows CD? It's not like you can say you bought one for their superior hardware either. I will not buy from a place that doesn't give me a Windows disk myself. I will build my own first.

Anyway, Vista is fine. I have had some issues, but all minor. If you really cared about your gaming performance, you wouldn't have bought an HP. icon_twisted The boost XP will give you is minimal.
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TheAtomicKid
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2008, 05:49:05 AM »

Dunno if you use it, but the games explorer is vista-only. You'll also lose the aero desktop. (strangely, I found myself liking it quite a bit when I did my test of server 2008 as a workstation/game box... which, btw, doesn't include games explorer so some things get cranky when they think they're supposed to be seeing it)

Atomic

To be honest, a clean vista install will probably do you some good for gaming. Windows XP is good stuff, it's true. But Vista is the way forward, and stuff is being programmed with it in mind, and less with XP in mind. Especially driver updates and things of that nature.

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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2008, 01:30:10 PM »

My mom got a new laptop with Vista pre-installed (with no bloatware).  It ran like utter crap until my dad removed it and put on XP.  Now it works just fine.  People can quote statistics all they want, I know that 95% of statistics are made up on the spot.  When you can see first-hand how Vista slows things down you question it.

Also from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7562720.stm?hpg1=bn

Quote
Based on Vista, Windows 7 is expected to be released in January 2010.

Years from now people will probably look back on Vista as equivalent to Windows 2000.  I'd stick with what you know in XP and wait for Windows 7.  All my games, even new ones, work just fine on XP and I've found no compelling reason to switch.  In fact the only reasons of note are to have "shinies".  I don't care about "shinies", maybe you do.
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2008, 01:50:39 PM »

Vista runs great on my system.  You can look at statistics all you want but so far there is only one person saying it sucks in this thread.   I have no desire to go back to XP.  If you want to wait for 2 years on the next windows go for it, but just remember it will be just as buggy at launch so it's more realestic to wait till 2011.  Besides most of the issues with Vista have to do with drivers and not the OS.
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 02:09:29 PM »

If given the choice, I'd pick XP over Vista. However, that's not saying that Vista is utter bunk, either. I'd just rather take XP. Vista runs great in the time I've used it on my 'gaming' PC.
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 02:22:04 PM »

Quote from: morlac on August 16, 2008, 01:50:39 PM

You can look at statistics all you want but so far there is only one person saying it sucks in this thread.

That's because some of us are staying quiet.  icon_razz
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2008, 03:10:14 PM »

I can't really offer an opinion on gaming with Vista, since my gaming pc is my older pc with XP Media Center on it. My wife's laptop has Vista and it runs fine, and she likes the Aero desktop. I really just spent some of the first day with the laptop turning off the annoying Vista security junk, and it's been fine since. It would be hard for me to seriously evaluate her PC as a gaming machine since it has the slower laptop hard drive plus an on-board video card. So, even if I installed Windows XP Super Turbo Steroid edition games would run like ass on it.

My general experience is that Vista runs very badly on a PC with only 1G of RAM, but with 2G or more it's just fine. Even if someone were to buy a PC with only 1G nowadays, it's probably still cheaper to buy another gig of memory than to buy a copy of XP. Some people have even told me that a cleaned up a little PC with 1G can run Vista OK, but that doesn't match my completely limited experience with Vista and my father-lin-law's HP which only shipped with 1G.
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2008, 03:58:13 PM »

Speaking as someone who owns one of these new ultra-portable computers, I'd never want Vista on there bogging down my system.  Windows XP is blazing fast and that's what I'll stick with.
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morlac
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2008, 05:54:54 PM »

Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 16, 2008, 02:22:04 PM

Quote from: morlac on August 16, 2008, 01:50:39 PM

You can look at statistics all you want but so far there is only one person saying it sucks in this thread.

That's because some of us are staying quiet.  icon_razz

Don't be shy!  I'd love to hear about vista issues so i can hopefully avoid any.  I just think it's silly the bad rap it gets.  IMO it's due from the fact that XP has been solid for many years while when XP came out 2000 and ME were getting hammered for their suckiness.   That and it seems MS has been more eager this go round to try and 'force' the upgrades with the quick dropping of XP support.  Not to mention that SP 3 for XP was terrible, it wreaked havoc at work for us.
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2008, 06:19:31 PM »

Quote from: Laner on August 16, 2008, 02:52:56 AM

Not sure why you would want to downgrade... just grab http://pcdecrapifier.com/ , wipe off the stuff you don't want, and enjoy.  Vista is fine - there is no noticeable hit in performance unless you're using really old hardware.  And as your computer came with Vista, I'll wager that isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure there was some tests of SP1 that showed the performance (in games) was just as good as XP.
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YellowKing
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2008, 10:31:04 PM »

Quote
My mom got a new laptop with Vista pre-installed (with no bloatware).  It ran like utter crap until my dad removed it and put on XP.  Now it works just fine.  People can quote statistics all they want, I know that 95% of statistics are made up on the spot.  When you can see first-hand how Vista slows things down you question it.

I'm continually surprised how people exclaim that Windows XP, a 7-year old OS, is faster than Vista, like it's some kind of proof that XP is the better OS. XP was designed to run on a Pentium-233 with 64MB RAM. Yes, it's going to run pretty nicely on a dual core Pentium 3.0+ ghz with 2GB RAM. I'm betting Windows 3.11 will run like a champ too!

XP was a great OS, don't get me wrong. But time and the advancement of technology have done more to increase XP performance than anything magical that Microsoft built into the OS.
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2008, 10:57:32 PM »

Here is my thought.

If its working fine for you just leave it alone.  Uninstall the HP crap but leave the O/S as it is.
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2008, 02:34:56 AM »

Quote from: YellowKing on August 16, 2008, 10:31:04 PM


XP was a great OS, don't get me wrong. But time and the advancement of technology have done more to increase XP performance than anything magical that Microsoft built into the OS.

But what does Vista bring for me that's so great?  And don't say DirectX 10 because my compuuters are so far behind the technological curve that I won't be playing any Dx 10 games any time soon.  Are their really any must haves?  I'm sorry but I wouldn't trade transparent windows for a system that bogs for any money in the world.  I suppose if you buy a brand new gaming computer then there's nothing wrong with using Vista but to be honest XP still does absolutely everything I want it to do.  Upgrading from Windows 98 to Windows XP was obvious because since upgrading to that, I have NEVER had another BSOD. Getting rid of BSOD's is in itself a good enough reason to upgrade OS's.  I don't see a similar reason to go from XP to Vista.
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2008, 03:50:27 AM »

Well for me, I love the integrated search, better security, games explorer, better networking, and better diagnostic tools. I realize that not everyone will use those features, but they are things I have trouble going back to XP and doing without.

However, there is a big misconception about Vista with the general public, and a lot of it is due to Microsoft's stupid marketing decisions. MS knew that Vista was designed to sell new PCs, yet they marketed it as a must-have upgrade to XP. People upgraded old hardware, it slowed them down, they had driver incompatibility, etc. and all of a sudden Vista has a reputation for being this POS operating system that's no good.

So people who say, "Why should I upgrade to Vista? XP gives me everything I need on my ancient computer." Well....yeah. There is no pressing reason to upgrade to Vista if you're using old hardware. If you're buying a new PC, however, then there's no reason not to go Vista and get the improved security features, GUI perks, integrated search, etc.

Seriously, it drives me nuts when people come to me in a panic after having bought a brand new PC and realize it has Vista installed. Vista is fine on current hardware. Likewise, it drives me nuts when somebody comes to me wanting to upgrade their 5-year old PC to Vista because "It's the newest Windows." 
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« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 05:13:34 AM »

+1 to YK.  Vista is a really good OS and a welcome improvement over XP.  The search feature alone makes it worthwhile.
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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2008, 02:40:02 PM »

Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 16, 2008, 02:22:04 PM

Quote from: morlac on August 16, 2008, 01:50:39 PM

You can look at statistics all you want but so far there is only one person saying it sucks in this thread.

That's because some of us are staying quiet.  icon_razz

Yeah, we have a Vista pc and it's caused no end of grief. Sure, games run ok on it, but the OS itself causes tons of headaches, and the pc just generally doesn't run as well as the XP machine.

I will either eventually update to Vista on my pc when I don't have much choice, or I will update to Windows 7 if that's another XP-quality OS.
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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2008, 05:25:33 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on August 19, 2008, 02:40:02 PM

Quote from: Huw the Poo on August 16, 2008, 02:22:04 PM

Quote from: morlac on August 16, 2008, 01:50:39 PM

You can look at statistics all you want but so far there is only one person saying it sucks in this thread.

That's because some of us are staying quiet.  icon_razz

Yeah, we have a Vista pc and it's caused no end of grief. Sure, games run ok on it, but the OS itself causes tons of headaches, and the pc just generally doesn't run as well as the XP machine.

I will either eventually update to Vista on my pc when I don't have much choice, or I will update to Windows 7 if that's another XP-quality OS.

Hehe, this is the exact type of posts that create an undeserved negative rep for Vista. "Games run ok, but OS itself causes tons of headaches"? Any specifics? Do you just hate learning a new software or does it delete your files or something?

I've installed Vista on my new PC shortly after SP1 came out and had zero problems with it. I didn't do much fine tuning either, just regular stuff like paging file setup, etc.

It is a new OS, so there is a certain learning curve. Nothing too terrible though.

And to the guy who NEVER had a BSoD on XP - you are VERY lucky. Or you have a very bad memory. biggrin
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« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2008, 05:44:34 PM »

Quote from: StriderGG on August 19, 2008, 05:25:33 PM

Hehe, this is the exact type of posts that create an undeserved negative rep for Vista. "Games run ok, but OS itself causes tons of headaches"? Any specifics? Do you just hate learning a new software or does it delete your files or something?

It's not my pc, it's my lady's pc, and I never wanted Vista to begin with so it's all her. And she's in IT just like me so it's not like she's incompetent with a computer. icon_wink I don't mess with that one, I stick with my XP machine. I have another buddy online who's had serious trouble with driver support and some games on Vista as well. My lady's daughter has a laptop with Vista and the wireless connection support is what I've had to deal with directly, and it's a real pain in the ass compared to the simplicity of controlling the wireless connection on my XP pc. Another friend of mine has had no real problems with Vista, however, and likes it well enough.

So I'm not just spouting nothing but haterade, I'm simply saying that the majority of the direct experiences I've had or heard from have been negative. Hard to argue with personal experience.

I never personally had any hardware problems with my Playstation 2 until it finally died on my after seven years, but that doesn't mean that there weren't hardware problems with early-gen PS2's. icon_wink
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« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2008, 05:51:55 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on August 19, 2008, 05:44:34 PM

Hard to argue with personal experience.

precisely.  I've had pretty much no issues with Vista, and the couple I did have were due to nVidia fumbling the ball when it came to their early drivers for Vista or me not understanding how the UAC worked (I'm not sure if I even have that on anymore anyways), so from personal experience I give it a thumbs up.
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« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2008, 06:10:28 PM »

I run Vista Ultima 64-bit (it came with my HP PC), and while it's been generally OK, it has given me a few 64-bit compatibility problems (Palm OS software, my old MP3 player's Rhapsody software, a couple of games).

I can't say that any game has run "better" in it, or that it's anymore stable than XP was. I mean, you can pick on people for being squeamish about moving up to the latest OS but the fact of the matter is Vista doesn't really *do* anything "better" than XP that matters. If it was more stable, handled memory better, was less bloated, used memory less efficiently (the fact so many new PCs come with 4GB of RAM should tell you how inefficient Vista is with memory) etc. I'd have an easier time recommending it. So far I've only encountered one game where the DX10 mode didn't knock my performance so much that I was OK with playing in DX10 mode (LOTORO).

At this point, I'd say, if you're worried your new PC comes with Vista to begin with, don't. It's OK in most ways. If you're considering 64-bit, read up on your various non-game programs (iTunes is fine, and has been specifically updated to be 64-bit compatible) and utilities to see what you'll need to upgrade, replace, or stop using if you make the 64-bit switch.

But I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to put Vista on an existing system if you've been happy with XP -- at least not until the date where MS will no longer do security updates for XP. 'tis just my 2 cents.
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« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2008, 06:11:31 PM »

Quote
Hard to argue with personal experience

I disagree. It's perfectly fine to argue with personal experience as long as this experience is provided in a specific enough manner allowing a reader to pinpoint a problem - whether this bad experience was due to OS issues, user error, poor manufacturer support or whetever. Your wireless troubles are a good example, unfortunately, my Vista is on my desktop and I don't use wireless, so can't provide any input here.

A lot of times people blame Vista for something that is really not a fault of an OS. Features they don't understand, interface that is different from the user got used to, devices that don't work because their manufactures don't support their products properly, etc. Often people complain about something that has been resolved long time ago by a patch or SP1. Some people complain because they heard an uncle of their friend's brother in law complaining. Unfortunately, from what I've seen, vast majority Vista related complaints fall into this category.

No software is perfect and some of the complaints, of course, are legit (maybe you wireless complaint is one of those, I don't know), like excessive UAC popups (which by the way was addressed in SP1. You don't see many of those on the net though.
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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2008, 06:19:30 PM »

Oh and to answer the "what does Vista have that XP doesn't?" question, I found the integrated Parental Control to be extremely useful and well implemented. It allows me to monitor and control how my little one is using the PC and doesn't require me to fork out $50 a year.

But BJ is right, there is no one big feature that makes you go "I've got to install Vista". It does however have a ton of little features and improvements here and there, to justify the time you'll spend learning Vista once you finally get it with your new PC.
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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2008, 06:47:48 PM »

When I bought my new gaming PC I did a lot of looking around and there was nothing positive about Vista in regards to gaming perfomance. There was the promise of things to come but all the testing done on XP vs Vista gaming at the time showed, without a doubt, gamers were better off with XP for gaming performance. Almost every game I cared about ran slower on Vista. Most of the time it was slightly less performance, but in some cases it was a serious drop in performance.

If gaming perfomance is not your main focus, I would just get Vista and call it a day. If it is, check out some recent XP vs Vista performance tests on games you like to play and see what the results are. That is how I would do it.

I do have vista on a dell laptop I got in Jan btw. Personally, for minor gaming/general use, I really am not that impressed with Vista. I mean, its not horrible or anything, but the bells and whistles do not really make much of a difference to me.

Quote
My lady's daughter has a laptop with Vista and the wireless connection support is what I've had to deal with directly, and it's a real pain in the ass compared to the simplicity of controlling the wireless connection on my XP pc

Hooking up to my vista laptop to my wireless router (linksys) was a piece of cake. Fired up linksys center on my main PC, selected add a computer, connected laptop to router via network cable, go to a web address, and it auto-configured itself. Unplugged the network cable it it was running like a champ.



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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2008, 07:16:50 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on August 19, 2008, 06:10:28 PM

If it was more stable, handled memory better, was less bloated, used memory less efficiently (the fact so many new PCs come with 4GB of RAM should tell you how inefficient Vista is with memory) etc.
That's just it - it's not "inefficient" and it *does* handle memory better - it's using memory much more aggressively than XP does:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000688.html

What good is unused memory anyway?  It's dirt cheap these days, might as well put it to good use, right?
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« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2008, 08:32:16 PM »

Learning the quibbles of a new OS isn't something I would place as a negative. When I migrated from Win98 SE to XP, it was a huge difference for me (as a power user), and took quite a while to learn the ins and outs of. However, right from the start I loved it, and despite a few little headaches, felt it was worthwhile to learn to appreciate it. My experiences (both firsthand, and secondhand through Debby and my other buddy) with Vista, on the other hand, indicate that it's not just a matter of learning the OS.

I'm not outright stating that Vista is bad, and I hope I'm not being lumped in with the internet anti-Vista trolling brigade when I make negative comments, because I'm just stating that in general, from what I've seen & heard from reputable people whose impressions I trust, it's not an OS that I have any desire to migrate to. And I was so happy with the move to XP back when I did it that I honestly expected Vista would prove worth upgrading to within six months of release (to work out the kinks). It hasn't, and I'm hoping that Windows 7 is the upgrade I was waiting for.

I don't hate MS or anything. I have no axe to grind. I just don't find Vista worth the time & money to migrate to. icon_smile
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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2008, 09:12:51 PM »

Quote from: StriderGG on August 19, 2008, 06:11:31 PM

A lot of times people blame Vista for something that is really not a fault of an OS. Features they don't understand, interface that is different from the user got used to, devices that don't work because their manufactures don't support their products properly, etc.

Just to play devil's advocate here, whether or not problems are a fault of the OS is not especially relevant for most people.

Even though I'm a Linux fanboy, I still wouldn't recommend it to computer newbies because there are a couple of things that generally don't "just work" that you would expect to work even though it isn't an inherent fault of the OS (for example, DVD playback).  This is no different.  Whether it's Microsoft's fault or not, if Joe Average buys a new laptop with Vista and can't get wireless working, the laptop goes back to the shop.
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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2008, 10:47:40 PM »

Most of you are taking my question out of context, I'm asking almost exclusively for gaming. Primarily what even got me back into using a desktop was my want to play WoW: Wrath when it comes out as well as Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and Spore. I've used Vista enough to know that the interface is much more elegant and, from what I can tell, it is a more efficient OS regarding stability and troubleshooting.

We don't need to debate opinions on which OS looks better and is more intuitive, I just want to know if for gaming in the next 2-3 years I should hang with XP or Vista, and there are definitely good arguements in both directions.
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2008, 10:55:53 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on August 19, 2008, 10:47:40 PM

We don't need to debate opinions on which OS looks better and is more intuitive, I just want to know if for gaming in the next 2-3 years I should hang with XP or Vista, and there are definitely good arguements in both directions.

For reasonably current games (i.e. avoiding old gaming compatibility issues), my honest opinion is "take the cheaper option" if you have the hardware to support it. For Vista, that means you want 2GB minimum on your system, 4GB highly recommended (though if you don't get Vista 64-bit, which isn't the cheapest option anyway, your pc will only use ~3.5 of that 4GB of ram, but it's worth it). For WinXP, you want 1GB minimum, 2+ highly recommended. I'm running 4GB on XP, so I'm more than maxxed out until I migrate to a 64-bit OS in the future.
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« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2008, 11:00:18 PM »

Quote from: Laner on August 19, 2008, 07:16:50 PM

Quote from: Blackjack on August 19, 2008, 06:10:28 PM

If it was more stable, handled memory better, was less bloated, used memory less efficiently (the fact so many new PCs come with 4GB of RAM should tell you how inefficient Vista is with memory) etc.
That's just it - it's not "inefficient" and it *does* handle memory better - it's using memory much more aggressively than XP does:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000688.html

What good is unused memory anyway?  It's dirt cheap these days, might as well put it to good use, right?

Not to mention that it is a huge stretch to say poor vista memory usage is why all these new pc's come with 4 gigs.  I'm sure it has nothing to do with 4 gigs costing what 2 gigs did last year.  Nope it has to be that shitty OS.
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« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2008, 12:45:16 AM »

I apologize for hating on Vista and spreading all that vile misinformation. Bill Gates is God, and he can do no wrong. Yes, yes, yes, no matter how happy you are with XP today, you must go out and buy Vista and install it right now! Do it tonight, before it's too late!  drool VISTA VISTA VISTA! Case closed!
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« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2008, 02:28:02 AM »

Quote from: Blackjack on August 20, 2008, 12:45:16 AM

I apologize for hating on Vista and spreading all that vile misinformation. Bill Gates is God, and he can do no wrong. Yes, yes, yes, no matter how happy you are with XP today, you must go out and buy Vista and install it right now! Do it tonight, before it's too late!  drool VISTA VISTA VISTA! Case closed!

Wha?
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« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2008, 11:02:45 AM »

Some people take criticism better than others.
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« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2008, 04:02:02 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on August 19, 2008, 10:47:40 PM

Most of you are taking my question out of context, I'm asking almost exclusively for gaming. Primarily what even got me back into using a desktop was my want to play WoW: Wrath when it comes out as well as Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and Spore. I've used Vista enough to know that the interface is much more elegant and, from what I can tell, it is a more efficient OS regarding stability and troubleshooting.

We don't need to debate opinions on which OS looks better and is more intuitive, I just want to know if for gaming in the next 2-3 years I should hang with XP or Vista, and there are definitely good arguements in both directions.

I did a little googling to find any fairly recent XP vs Vista performance testing. The ones I read that were relevant (i.e. atleast in 2008) it seems to be a pretty close call, with no clear "best choice". i.e. both are going to run games about the same, all things considered.
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2008, 08:21:44 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on August 20, 2008, 12:45:16 AM

I apologize for hating on Vista and spreading all that vile misinformation. Bill Gates is God, and he can do no wrong. Yes, yes, yes, no matter how happy you are with XP today, you must go out and buy Vista and install it right now! Do it tonight, before it's too late!  drool VISTA VISTA VISTA! Case closed!
Helloooo, overreaction!
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