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Author Topic: [4th Edition D&D] H1 - Keep on the Shadowfell  (Read 36842 times)
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IceBear
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« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2008, 03:47:33 PM »

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 03:38:11 PM

Thanks for the input, folks.

It will be interesting to see how some of these changes in the system work out.  I fully understand being able to use some 4E and some 3.5E rules but why pay for a new edition of rules if they are half-baked?  Back in the Gygax days I felt like they were trying to make the game beter.  WotC comes across as a money making machine above all else.  Of course, this situation may be like a new release of an old software package where the learning curve is the real problem.  I look forward to even more information from you kind early adopters.

I honestly don't see WotC as coming across as a money making machine above all else.  We basically get a new edition of D&D a decade (I suppose the 3.5 release could be considered a money making venture), but I've listened to the designers on the various podcasts and blogs and you can tell they're doing it because the love it and honestly feel they are making a better game.  Now, Hasbro may have come to them and said it's time to release a new edition, but I don't blame that on WotC.  Like someone else said - it's not like packs of ninja were released to steal your old books smile

And yes, a lot of the people groaning are the people that have been playing for years and don't like the fact that wizards aren't all powerful anymore, or they can't build an insane dual wielding rogue anymore, etc  The changes are big and it's hard to get your mind around some of them if you've been playing D&D a lot.  One anology I've heard is it's like moving from AD&D to Basic D&D.  It's not that the game is for dummies and too simply, but it is easier to understand and introduce new people to (one of their main goals).

Right now my faith in the actual system is weakened.  But, let's keep in mind a lot of these problems and issues and broken items people are pointing out in droves are on paper / in theory only.  Hardly any of this is actually reported gameplay issues.  There was a lot of this type of stuff going on when 3E came out, though in all honesty probably not to the same amount.  One telling thing - there's a poll on ENWorld as to whether or not you consider 4E D&D.  Right now, only 56% of the people do.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 03:51:19 PM by IceBear » Logged
YellowKing
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« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2008, 04:12:37 PM »

This guy brings up a pretty good rebuttal to the "broken skill challenges" argument:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=230233

I think it's just going to take time. People need to play the game over a variety of levels and situations before drawing conclusions on what's broken and what's not.
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Arnir
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« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2008, 04:12:55 PM »

I'm sure that a lot of the problems are coming from teething problems.  I might not be being fair to WotC about the money issue but that's just the completely uneducated feeling I've gotten from reading in different places.  Of course, the biggest complaints on that score I believe have been about the online component - something with which I'm not fully familiar.  Still, even though I'm sure a lot of the folks are true D&D fans, from following WotC for years I have not gained any warm fuzzies for their business model.
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« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2008, 04:35:16 PM »

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 03:13:00 PM

Just a quick update: a day after the shipping date Amazon just got around to informing me that they won't be able to ship the books until mid-July which is only a full month and a half after the original ship date.  I was kind of expecting that as I didn't expect to be more special than the other guys who got delayed.  Only problem is that I am moving jobs so the delivery address won't be valid.  I can either change the address (deliveries to my new job are notoriously unreliable) or have it shipped home (ditto) or just fire Amazon.  I'm leaning towards the latter.  The books are sitting on the shelf at B&N and I have a B&N gift card. As a player, I don't need the DM guide, do I?

And I have a friend that placed his order with Amazon the day after the books were released, and UPS says they will be arriving at his door this afternoon.

Thanks, Amazon!!!  finger
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IceBear
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« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2008, 04:41:11 PM »

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 04:12:55 PM

I'm sure that a lot of the problems are coming from teething problems.  I might not be being fair to WotC about the money issue but that's just the completely uneducated feeling I've gotten from reading in different places.  Of course, the biggest complaints on that score I believe have been about the online component - something with which I'm not fully familiar.  Still, even though I'm sure a lot of the folks are true D&D fans, from following WotC for years I have not gained any warm fuzzies for their business model.

Honestly, their business model doesn't seem any different that TRS' was - release tons and tons of sourcebooks. In all honesty, WotC has put a lot of material on their website for free (heck, you could play 3E without buying the books from the stuff on their site) so I really don't get the feeling from them that they are only interested in my dollar (of course they are, they are a business after all) and not supporting the community too. I mean, when TSR owned D&D I was pretty isolated from the rest of the community, but I don't feel like WotC is trying to rip me off anymore than TSR is.  People will always complain that it's a money grab when a new edition comes out, no matter what the game.  Compared to Games' Workshop and how every new release of the 40K rules tends to make your old minis invalid somehow so you have to rebuy them, WotC are nothing smile

The electronic gaming tools that they are planning on releasng with 4E are delayed (not unexpected) and this was communicated a long time ago but as normal most people didn't know that and were upset.  The other part that is upsetting people is I think it'll cost $15 a month to subscribe.  I'm not sure if I'm going to subscribe as I don't know if I would use a lot of the tools as I don't plan on playing online much.  But it will give you access to Dungeon and Dragon magazines too along with providing new rules before the books come out to help playtest them.  So, I might be tempted for that.  Right now the Dungeon and Dragon magazine content is free so if it seems like it's worth it I probably will subscribe
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IceBear
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« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2008, 04:42:19 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 11, 2008, 04:12:37 PM

This guy brings up a pretty good rebuttal to the "broken skill challenges" argument:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=230233

I think it's just going to take time. People need to play the game over a variety of levels and situations before drawing conclusions on what's broken and what's not.

I do believe his rebuttal was rebutted smile

The arguments on this topic kind of shows me where the disconnect is between those that like 4E and those that don't.  I think the reason that Skill Challenges probably worked in playtest was due to DM's giving bonuses and penalties (as suggested by the Skill Challenge section) and those that like 4E like that there's more power in the DM's hands.  Other's, however, are basically saying they want a system where all the numbers are hard coded (and, of course, valid and balanced) and allowing the DMs to "mess with the math" is not something they want.  3E tried to have a rule for everything and that was part of the problem.  Originally I thought that was great from a consistency point of view but later I began to realize it stiffled creativity (both mine and the players).  One of my players (the guy that loves to roleplay) used to try all kinds of things when 3E came out ("I want to trip that guy" "Ok, there's a rule for that and since you don't have the feat you have penalties" "oh, well, I won't bother") but then he just gave up.  I see 4E as opening up the door again to allow players and DMs to try to do unusual things.  Of course by the time 5E comes out we'll be seeing how much of a mistake that was Tongue
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 04:54:44 PM by IceBear » Logged
Arnir
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« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2008, 04:48:34 PM »

Well, without the books I can't really comment much, but it does sound like I will like the reduced skill sets quite a bit.  Perhaps reduced isn't the correct word - consolidated might be better.  The wide choices in 3.5E seemed a bit silly to me.   Having 4-6 theives skills doesn't make sense to me.
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YellowKing
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« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2008, 04:52:25 PM »

I found this a very telling post (from the guy defending his "skill challenges are broke" theory):

Quote
Others are saying aid another is the key. If that's true, then WOTC needs to make that clearer. If WOTC came in and said, "guys we made this system assuming everyone would aid one person every round" and those numbers worked out, then I would throw up my hands and agree that the system works. I wouldn't like such a system, but I would agree that the system does what they intended it to do.

But what the poor DM who just wants to give his party a level 1 complexity 5 challenge, and is walking into a 93% failure chance for his party? Should he be forced to tell his party, everyone pick one guy to roll for real, the rest of you aid, or you will fail this challenge? If that's the case, then what's the point of the skill challenge system in the first place?

I actually thought the idea of people aiding one another during skill challenges was pretty clear. They are considered non-combat *encounters*, which to me implies the entire party is participating, not just one guy. I'm still not convinced he's not misinterpreting the developers' intent. He doesn't seem to understand the point of a group effort in skill challenges, whereas I think that is probably the *entire* point of them.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 04:54:07 PM by YellowKing » Logged
IceBear
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« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2008, 04:57:29 PM »

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 04:48:34 PM

Well, without the books I can't really comment much, but it does sound like I will like the reduced skill sets quite a bit.  Perhaps reduced isn't the correct word - consolidated might be better.  The wide choices in 3.5E seemed a bit silly to me.   Having 4-6 theives skills doesn't make sense to me.

Right, but what if your player wants to craft his own sword?  smile  No more crafting skills.  Personally, I never cared for them, so if the player has written down that he used to be a blacksmith on his background or has roleplayed trying to learn blacksmithing then I'd be fine with waving my hand and saying done.  If it mattered how well he did it then I could see making a Skill Challenge using Int, Str, and Dex (maybe even Endurance).
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IceBear
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« Reply #129 on: June 11, 2008, 05:01:20 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 11, 2008, 04:52:25 PM

I found this a very telling post (from the guy defending his "skill challenges are broke" theory):

Quote
Others are saying aid another is the key. If that's true, then WOTC needs to make that clearer. If WOTC came in and said, "guys we made this system assuming everyone would aid one person every round" and those numbers worked out, then I would throw up my hands and agree that the system works. I wouldn't like such a system, but I would agree that the system does what they intended it to do.

But what the poor DM who just wants to give his party a level 1 complexity 5 challenge, and is walking into a 93% failure chance for his party? Should he be forced to tell his party, everyone pick one guy to roll for real, the rest of you aid, or you will fail this challenge? If that's the case, then what's the point of the skill challenge system in the first place?

I actually thought the idea of people aiding one another during skill challenges was pretty clear. They are considered non-combat *encounters*, which to me implies the entire party is participating, not just one guy. I'm still not convinced he's not misinterpreting the developers' intent. He doesn't seem to understand the point of a group effort in skill challenges, whereas I think that is probably the *entire* point of them.

I don't disagree with you, but I do think Stalker redid his math using aid another and still thought the system was broken.  Personally I think there's just too much variance to 100% model it via math.  I'm sure someone at my table would come up with an idea or say something I never thought of and boom - that's a +x bonus to your skill check.
I also find it interesting that while that's such a hot topic on ENWorld, it hasn't come up yet on the official boards (could just mean that no one there has used them much to decide if it was broken or not)
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YellowKing
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« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2008, 05:09:36 PM »

Quote
Right, but what if your player wants to craft his own sword?  smile  No more crafting skills.  Personally, I never cared for them, so if the player has written down that he used to be a blacksmith on his background or has roleplayed trying to learn blacksmithing then I'd be fine with waving my hand and saying done.  If it mattered how well he did it then I could see making a Skill Challenge using Int, Str, and Dex (maybe even Endurance).

For our group personally, I can count the number of times on one hand where a crafting situation arose. I think they cut out a lot of the extraneous bullshit people don't utilize a lot in order to fulfill their promise of making the game more accessible. Once people get settled in, I can see a lot of it trickling back in with various rules supplements.

I'm excited about the updated 4e Forgotten Realms coming out in a couple of months! We ran all our old campaigns in the Forgotten Realms, and I felt a little lost with KotS since it takes place in a more or less "generic" fantasy world (there is an article, however, on how to update KotS for the Realms, which I plan on incorporating the next time we play).
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« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2008, 05:14:26 PM »

Well, I just fired Amazon.com and they certainly didn't care.  I tried to change the address for the shipment and the website needed me to plug in all my payment information again and I didn't want to do that in case they double billed me.  So, I called and they explained that it was all for my security but I disagreed and told them I didn't like jumping through their hoops.  So, we ceased our business relationship for this product but I don't think that they were that distraught. smile
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« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2008, 05:18:16 PM »

Quote from: IceBear on June 11, 2008, 04:57:29 PM

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 04:48:34 PM

Well, without the books I can't really comment much, but it does sound like I will like the reduced skill sets quite a bit.  Perhaps reduced isn't the correct word - consolidated might be better.  The wide choices in 3.5E seemed a bit silly to me.   Having 4-6 theives skills doesn't make sense to me.

Right, but what if your player wants to craft his own sword?  smile  No more crafting skills.  Personally, I never cared for them, so if the player has written down that he used to be a blacksmith on his background or has roleplayed trying to learn blacksmithing then I'd be fine with waving my hand and saying done.  If it mattered how well he did it then I could see making a Skill Challenge using Int, Str, and Dex (maybe even Endurance).

Yeah,
I think that such situations will be old school:  the DM comes up with the rules.  As always a good dm = good fun and a bad dm = bad day for all.
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« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2008, 05:21:33 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 11, 2008, 05:09:36 PM

Quote
Right, but what if your player wants to craft his own sword?  smile  No more crafting skills.  Personally, I never cared for them, so if the player has written down that he used to be a blacksmith on his background or has roleplayed trying to learn blacksmithing then I'd be fine with waving my hand and saying done.  If it mattered how well he did it then I could see making a Skill Challenge using Int, Str, and Dex (maybe even Endurance).

For our group personally, I can count the number of times on one hand where a crafting situation arose. I think they cut out a lot of the extraneous bullshit people don't utilize a lot in order to fulfill their promise of making the game more accessible. Once people get settled in, I can see a lot of it trickling back in with various rules supplements.

I'm excited about the updated 4e Forgotten Realms coming out in a couple of months! We ran all our old campaigns in the Forgotten Realms, and I felt a little lost with KotS since it takes place in a more or less "generic" fantasy world (there is an article, however, on how to update KotS for the Realms, which I plan on incorporating the next time we play).

I agree with you.  Sorry, my sarcastic/ironic tone isn't coming through.  The fact that there aren't crafting skils is a common reason people are giving for hating 4E.  Well, they don't put it so bluntly, it generally boils down to - "I looked at the books, it's all combat and no roleplay.  There aren't any craft skills anymore.  So, my character concept of a dwarven blacksmith trader just went out the window."  They can't seem to grasp that they could just roleplay one without having those shiny numbers on the paper.
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kadnod
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« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2008, 06:08:03 PM »

I'm confident there will soon be approximately 1 bazillion supplements, both fan made and professional, that cover things like crafting, ballroom dancing, competitive eating and other skills not covered in the core books.  Why some of the die hards are so upset over this is just mind boggling. 

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 05:14:26 PM

Well, I just fired Amazon.com and they certainly didn't care.


I'm sure they're hurting on the inside.  icon_lol


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« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2008, 06:13:10 PM »

Expecting a game of this complexity to be even remotely balanced upon release, no matter how many testers they've had, is utterly naive. If you look at something like WoW - which is arguably made by the most balance-dedicated developers in the MMO space, you'll find that even after 3 years of millions of players testing it - it ain't really balanced. This is a game with a significantly less complex set of rules AND it's set within a tightly controlled computer generated world. Of course there are technical "bugs" that won't appear in a pen and paper game, but they're usually easier to detect and respond about.

No D&D game was ever balanced - and this will not be an exception. It's a limitation of the pen and paper format, really.

D&D is exposed to human beings with all the power in the world to creatively use or interpret the rules - not to mention overlook them entirely.

That said, after a quick read-through of the new rules, I must say I'm not at all secure that it'll be any good.

I'm sure the combats will be more entertaining and easier to grasp for newcomers, but everything about the new release tells me this is the pen and paper version of mass market appeal. They've targeted a wider audience with this, and as such they're making it more "accessible".

I'm not at all digging the "roles" for the classes, or the restrictive multiclassing. I don't appreciate the omission of the "weaker" first levels of play - because I adore the process of BECOMING powerful. I was hoping for a more meaningful alignment change - and if they WERE going to change it, I think they should have just removed the concept entirely. I never liked it anyway.

It seems to me that they're making a pen and paper MMO, and as such they're moving much further away from the freedom to develop your character as you see fit. This all important aspect - to me anyway - is a big step back from 3 and 3.5, as those editions did away with a lot of the class restrictions of the older systems.

Note that all of that is based on a quick read through and what I get from the various feedback. My group has every intention of testing this out soon, so we'll see. I hope that the many feats are enough to significantly alter these "set" roles, and that you can truly diversify within the classes - just as you could in the previous editions.

Oh, and I loved 3 and 3.5 from the moment I saw them, so this isn't a case of being conservative. I simply don't agree with the direction they've taken it - into the MMO/boardgame land of many christmas presents.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 06:19:32 PM by DArtagnan » Logged
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« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2008, 06:22:05 PM »

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 05:14:26 PM

Well, I just fired Amazon.com and they certainly didn't care.  I tried to change the address for the shipment and the website needed me to plug in all my payment information again and I didn't want to do that in case they double billed me.  So, I called and they explained that it was all for my security but I disagreed and told them I didn't like jumping through their hoops.  So, we ceased our business relationship for this product but I don't think that they were that distraught. smile


I've said it before in this thread but Overstock.com or Buy.com have the books for a better price than Amazon did, Overstock broke the street date and I got mine a few days before they should have been released but that doesn't really matter anymore.  Buy.com  ships for free and Overstock usually has a set $3.00 S&H fee.
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IceBear
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« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2008, 06:30:57 PM »

I don't disagree with you.  In fact when 3E came out the thing I was most happy for was the moving away from class roles and allowing a much wider range of character builds.  Now, I find myself happy that it's moving back to more defined roles.  They have stated they did this because it was too hard to balance the game otherwise, but, as you mentioned, the side effect is that it is much more accessible for everyone now.  There are several stories of people's wives and non-gamer friends sitting in for the first time and being able to identify with the character concept based on the role and suggested builds and get going right away where they might have been overwhelmed in 3E.  They've been trying to make D&D appeal to new people for awhile now so it looks like 4E got that going for it.  Anyway, D&D was always a class system but they tried to turn it into an almost classless system with 3E (which I did like at first) but it just didn't work (maybe if they didn't release any other supplements the balance would have been ok - hard to say)

They also had a hard time balancing multiclassing (how many rogues took a level of ranger just for TWF and look at how bad a cleric/wizard was) and thus why it got nerfed so bad.  The current speculating is that many of the popular multiclass builds will become their own class in a splatbook.  I already read one 4E Forgotten Realms novel in which the main character was a Swordmage which doesn't really exist yet but will probably be in the FR book.

I'm kind of torn on it myself.  I loved the freedom of character building in 3E with being able to multiclass so easily and choose the skills and feats that met your character concept.  I hated how unbalanced it often was.  I'm hoping that with more released material the less pigeon-holed the classes in 4E will feel.  I know, for example, from reading the table of contents for the latest Dragon magazine, there will be an article on being an illusionist wizard.

I do get the feeling it's an MMO as well, but I'm not necessarily minding that.  The battles have changed from being stagnant "I swing, he swings" with little movement and few opponents to something that's a lot of fun.  The roleplaying aspect of it remains the same for me, but I do understand how people feel limited by the character builds, but I can only believe those limitations will be less and less with each passing month and new articles and supplements (at least I have hope for such)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 06:33:08 PM by IceBear » Logged
Rich
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« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2008, 06:32:27 PM »

I've got an odd question for everyone.  Does anyone know of a place that lists gaming groups looking for players or players looking for groups?  I don't know a single person who is interested in playing D&D and while I could go to the local game store and try to find some people the odds are they will be younger than 21 and at 37 I just get uncomfortable being the only "old guy" around.  Most of my friends are co-workers and being an autoworker/closet geek my hobbies almost never are the same as theirs.  In this case most of the stereotypes for geek and autoworker apply so is there a general RPG message board that lists gaming groups by area kind of like the boardgamegeek site does for board gamers?
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IceBear
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« Reply #139 on: June 11, 2008, 06:33:52 PM »

I'm pretty sure WotC and ENWorld have looking for players sections in their forums.
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« Reply #140 on: June 11, 2008, 06:42:47 PM »

Looks like the artifacter class will be in July's Dragon mag
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« Reply #141 on: June 11, 2008, 06:48:41 PM »

Quote from: IceBear on June 11, 2008, 06:30:57 PM

I don't disagree with you.  In fact when 3E came out the thing I was most happy for was the moving away from class roles and allowing a much wider range of character builds.  Now, I find myself happy that it's moving back to more defined roles.  They have stated they did this because it was too hard to balance the game otherwise, but, as you mentioned, the side effect is that it is much more accessible for everyone now.  There are several stories of people's wives and non-gamer friends sitting in for the first time and being able to identify with the character concept based on the role and suggested builds and get going right away where they might have been overwhelmed in 3E.  They've been trying to make D&D appeal to new people for awhile now so it looks like 4E got that going for it.  Anyway, D&D was always a class system but they tried to turn it into an almost classless system with 3E (which I did like at first) but it just didn't work (maybe if they didn't release any other supplements the balance would have been ok - hard to say)

They also had a hard time balancing multiclassing (how many rogues took a level of ranger just for TWF and look at how bad a cleric/wizard was) and thus why it got nerfed so bad.  The current speculating is that many of the popular multiclass builds will become their own class in a splatbook.  I already read one 4E Forgotten Realms novel in which the main character was a Swordmage which doesn't really exist yet but will probably be in the FR book.

I'm kind of torn on it myself.  I loved the freedom of character building in 3E with being able to multiclass so easily and choose the skills and feats that met your character concept.  I hated how unbalanced it often was.  I'm hoping that with more released material the less pigeon-holed the classes in 4E will feel.  I know, for example, from reading the table of contents for the latest Dragon magazine, there will be an article on being an illusionist wizard.

I do get the feeling it's an MMO as well, but I'm not necessarily minding that.  The battles have changed from being stagnant "I swing, he swings" with little movement and few opponents to something that's a lot of fun.  The roleplaying aspect of it remains the same for me, but I do understand how people feel limited by the character builds, but I can only believe those limitations will be less and less with each passing month and new articles and supplements (at least I have hope for such)

Yes it's true, it was always a class based system - and to be honest I can sympathise with the choices they made.

It's not that I really expected the new system to be for me, so I'm not really disappointed or anything. I usually play for the social interaction more than anything, so any system could fit with that setting. But when I DO get into the gamey aspects, I pretty much despise anything that even remotely locks me down in terms of choice. I think one of the most brilliant aspects of playing pen and paper roleplaying is the relatively unrestricted freedom - and I don't mean that in a power sense. I don't powergame when I play PnP, because I have computer games for that. I just don't want to be told what I should do, but I understand that many actually PREFER to be told - especially newcomers.

Also, I think we have at least 2 players in my group who will be VERY happy being told what they should do, and that they don't need to worry too much about the development process.

So, in all likelihood this is the right direction in terms of their goals.
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« Reply #142 on: June 11, 2008, 07:06:37 PM »

Yeah, I'm with you.  When I play D&D (rather than DM) I tend to make some odd characters that tend to be as far from powergaming as possible for the same reason you stated - I get enough of that in a PC game, in the PnP world I like having fun with my character.  That said, there just seems to be enough people out there that went the other way that it forced them to ruin it for the rest of us.  Hopefully, with more articles and books there will be more choices to make some fun roleplaying characters.  One of the things that I will try to make happen is getting better backgrounds from my players.  A lot of them just picked certain skills and feats because it fit in with their character concept but no real background.  Now, the background becomes essential.  "So, you grew up in a small fishing village and used to fish during the day and played the lute at the inn at night? Cool, now you effectively have Perform: Lute and Profession: Fisherman, and on the bright side, taking those roleplaying skills didn't make you suck in an adventure"
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« Reply #143 on: June 11, 2008, 07:09:47 PM »

Quote from: kadnod on June 11, 2008, 06:08:03 PM


Well, I just fired Amazon.com and they certainly didn't care.


I'm sure they're hurting on the inside.  icon_lol

[/quote]

I think they looked at the caller ID after I hung up....

Is it really true that Clerics can't heal at level one unless they make an attack?
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« Reply #144 on: June 11, 2008, 07:18:52 PM »

No - that's not true.  This is some of the stuff that's causing so many issues.  People either can't read or just partially read something and make claims on it.

There is a power that allows you to heal when you hit something (I prefer to think of it - with the even looser hitpoints than before - that your attack lifts the morale of your ally and he feels more confident because of it - hitpoints can be thought of as part fighting spirt and part flesh and blood now).  However, that's an encounter power that you don't have to take.  There is another class power (which all clerics get) called Healing Word which lets you heal an ally from upto 50ft away (or 10 squares in the new terminology)

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YellowKing
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« Reply #145 on: June 11, 2008, 07:19:47 PM »

I think *some* of the "locked down" feeling is illusory. (Quick, roll a d20 Insight check to see through it!)  icon_wink

People are seeing this stuff on paper and thinking, "Well it says I can only choose from power A, B, or C at 2nd level! I'm locked down! I have no freedom!"

I'm not sure how much more freedom they had in 3e. They got to choose a new feat every few levels? 4e is basically choosing "feats" EVERY level.

Then some of it is from consolidation. A rogue looks down and sees he only has a Thievery skill now and can't up his Lockpick or Disarm Traps separately. But again, the end result isn't that different, it's less complex. He can still roleplay his rogue however he wants, he can still lockpick, he can still disarm traps. Only the semantics have changed.

Now the roles thing I won't disagree with. They definitely put a greater emphasis on group roles than they did in 3e, and I can fully understand how that would rub some people the wrong way. However, in our group the good outweighed the bad. We had people actually wanting to play classes they'd never played before. Our healer was never sitting around bored. Everybody understood what they contributed to the battle, and were *excited* about contributing to the battle. That's something we didn't always have consistently in 3e.

Ultimately though, I think some people are getting a little too obsessive about the books and thinking that because something isn't explicitly spelled out, then it doesn't exist anymore. 4e was designed to make a very simple, streamlined core set of rules that could be adapted to a more complex playstyle. I don't think it was ever meant to "remove" basic features of the game or in any way restrict players' imaginations.
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« Reply #146 on: June 11, 2008, 07:21:24 PM »

Quote from: IceBear on June 11, 2008, 07:18:52 PM

No - that's not true.  This is some of the stuff that's causing so many issues.  People either can't read or just partially read something and make claims on it.

There is a power that allows you to heal when you hit something (I prefer to think of it - with the even looser hitpoints than before - that your attack lifts the morale of your ally and he feels more confident because of it - hitpoints can be thought of as part fighting spirt and part flesh and blood now).  However, that's an encounter power that you don't have to take.  There is another class power (which all clerics get) called Healing Word which lets you heal an ally from upto 50ft away (or 10 squares in the new terminology)



Thanks for the info.  There sure is a lot of conflicting information floating around on the web.
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« Reply #147 on: June 11, 2008, 07:22:47 PM »

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 07:21:24 PM

Quote from: IceBear on June 11, 2008, 07:18:52 PM

No - that's not true.  This is some of the stuff that's causing so many issues.  People either can't read or just partially read something and make claims on it.

There is a power that allows you to heal when you hit something (I prefer to think of it - with the even looser hitpoints than before - that your attack lifts the morale of your ally and he feels more confident because of it - hitpoints can be thought of as part fighting spirt and part flesh and blood now).  However, that's an encounter power that you don't have to take.  There is another class power (which all clerics get) called Healing Word which lets you heal an ally from upto 50ft away (or 10 squares in the new terminology)



Thanks for the info.  There sure is a lot of conflicting information floating around on the web.

I think I saw that post where you read that.  That guy mentioned a lot of things that he didn't like and he was pretty much wrong about 75% of them
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« Reply #148 on: June 11, 2008, 07:24:35 PM »

That misinformation is going to be widespread for a little while. Heck, I read the books cover to cover, played several game sessions totaling around 15 hours, and we're still finding that we did this little thing wrong, or didn't fully understand this rule or that rule.
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« Reply #149 on: June 11, 2008, 07:28:53 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 11, 2008, 07:19:47 PM

I don't think it was ever meant to "remove" basic features of the game or in any way restrict players' imaginations.

Considering some of the stuff I've read (there's a 4 page "argument" on the PHB FAQ clarification that a 12 STR fighter could wear scale mail armor) unless it is explicitly stated in foolproof legalize people are going to feel like they can/can't do whatever they feel like smile
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« Reply #150 on: June 11, 2008, 07:32:23 PM »

Quote from: IceBear on June 11, 2008, 07:22:47 PM

Quote from: Arnir on June 11, 2008, 07:21:24 PM

Quote from: IceBear on June 11, 2008, 07:18:52 PM

No - that's not true.  This is some of the stuff that's causing so many issues.  People either can't read or just partially read something and make claims on it.

There is a power that allows you to heal when you hit something (I prefer to think of it - with the even looser hitpoints than before - that your attack lifts the morale of your ally and he feels more confident because of it - hitpoints can be thought of as part fighting spirt and part flesh and blood now).  However, that's an encounter power that you don't have to take.  There is another class power (which all clerics get) called Healing Word which lets you heal an ally from upto 50ft away (or 10 squares in the new terminology)



Thanks for the info.  There sure is a lot of conflicting information floating around on the web.

I think I saw that post where you read that.  That guy mentioned a lot of things that he didn't like and he was pretty much wrong about 75% of them

Probably.  I have been multitasking and didn't get to the rest of thread before asking here. 
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« Reply #151 on: June 11, 2008, 08:16:32 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 11, 2008, 07:19:47 PM

I think *some* of the "locked down" feeling is illusory. (Quick, roll a d20 Insight check to see through it!)  icon_wink

People are seeing this stuff on paper and thinking, "Well it says I can only choose from power A, B, or C at 2nd level! I'm locked down! I have no freedom!"

I'm not sure how much more freedom they had in 3e. They got to choose a new feat every few levels? 4e is basically choosing "feats" EVERY level.

Then some of it is from consolidation. A rogue looks down and sees he only has a Thievery skill now and can't up his Lockpick or Disarm Traps separately. But again, the end result isn't that different, it's less complex. He can still roleplay his rogue however he wants, he can still lockpick, he can still disarm traps. Only the semantics have changed.

Now the roles thing I won't disagree with. They definitely put a greater emphasis on group roles than they did in 3e, and I can fully understand how that would rub some people the wrong way. However, in our group the good outweighed the bad. We had people actually wanting to play classes they'd never played before. Our healer was never sitting around bored. Everybody understood what they contributed to the battle, and were *excited* about contributing to the battle. That's something we didn't always have consistently in 3e.

Ultimately though, I think some people are getting a little too obsessive about the books and thinking that because something isn't explicitly spelled out, then it doesn't exist anymore. 4e was designed to make a very simple, streamlined core set of rules that could be adapted to a more complex playstyle. I don't think it was ever meant to "remove" basic features of the game or in any way restrict players' imaginations.

Well, as I said my words were only an impression from the quick read.

About the "locked down" vibe I'm basically getting that from the idea of the roles they've assigned to each class. I haven't had time to sit down and investigate exactly what feats are available or how I can diversify with them. I'm simply making the assumption that a rogue - being a striker - is going to have feats that empower him in that way. Also, it appears that multiclassing is limited to the tier branching stage and is an alternative to pursuing your "real" goal in being a striker.

Whether or not that's actually how it plays, I obviously can't say yet - it's just the impression I'm getting.

I'll be glad if I'm wrong, but I'll live either way.

Ultimately, it'll take months of playtesting before I'm ready to pass judgment as a whole on the system. Even if they DO lock me down more than I'd like, it may turn out ok because of the advantages of the entertaining combat system - and I think it'll freshen up our sessions quite significantly, because we have a few people who're still new to it all, and who're not exactly passionate about rules.

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« Reply #152 on: June 11, 2008, 08:16:53 PM »

I think the only way for us to clear up some of the rule intricacies will be for us to start our own game of D&D with people from the forum.  

I'll be happy to try filling any role, but I think my first choice would be a cleric: I like the idea of being able to fight, heal, and boost up the abilities of other people all at the same time.  On the other hand, I hope the title of "Leader" is an honorary one because I don't think I'm experienced enough to advise anyone else on what do do. icon_redface

Meanwhile, I think YellowKing and Icebear should roll for initiative to see who's going to be the forum DM.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2008, 08:37:45 PM »

Quote from: DArtagnan on June 11, 2008, 08:16:32 PM

Well, as I said my words were only an impression from the quick read.

About the "locked down" vibe I'm basically getting that from the idea of the roles they've assigned to each class. I haven't had time to sit down and investigate exactly what feats are available or how I can diversify with them. I'm simply making the assumption that a rogue - being a striker - is going to have feats that empower him in that way. Also, it appears that multiclassing is limited to the tier branching stage and is an alternative to pursuing your "real" goal in being a striker.

Whether or not that's actually how it plays, I obviously can't say yet - it's just the impression I'm getting.

I'll be glad if I'm wrong, but I'll live either way.

Ultimately, it'll take months of playtesting before I'm ready to pass judgment as a whole on the system. Even if they DO lock me down more than I'd like, it may turn out ok because of the advantages of the entertaining combat system - and I think it'll freshen up our sessions quite significantly, because we have a few people who're still new to it all, and who're not exactly passionate about rules.

I don't think you're wrong about the roles, but it's not 100% bad.  Basically, with the core books you could build a damage dealing fighter or a defensive fighter, but you couldn't build a fighter that could coime close to doing the damage of a striker class.  Hopefully there will be more paths and powers in future supplements.
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YellowKing
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« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2008, 08:39:24 PM »

Quote
About the "locked down" vibe I'm basically getting that from the idea of the roles they've assigned to each class. I haven't had time to sit down and investigate exactly what feats are available or how I can diversify with them. I'm simply making the assumption that a rogue - being a striker - is going to have feats that empower him in that way.

Yeah, that's true enough. But I guess their feeling was that probably 95% of rogues are playing their class as a striker (high DPS) anyway. 95% of fighters are playing their class as a tank. The roles have always been there, and the fact that 3e allowed a bit more flexibility didn't significantly change the underlying role.

The one thing I do agree with about feats is that, because they have rolled a lot of those automatically into the class "powers," there is a lot more feeling of restriction there. Most feats have racial or class prerequisites, so in that sense you are losing a lot of the flexibility from 3e. I'm hoping they loosen that up a bit or add more feats or something to help variation from that angle.

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« Reply #155 on: June 11, 2008, 08:51:22 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 11, 2008, 08:16:53 PM

I think the only way for us to clear up some of the rule intricacies will be for us to start our own game of D&D with people from the forum. 

I'll be happy to try filling any role, but I think my first choice would be a cleric: I like the idea of being able to fight, heal, and boost up the abilities of other people all at the same time.  On the other hand, I hope the title of "Leader" is an honorary one because I don't think I'm experienced enough to advise anyone else on what do do. icon_redface

Meanwhile, I think YellowKing and Icebear should roll for initiative to see who's going to be the forum DM.

I agree. Then we'll know for sure just how the game runs and such. I'll also be glad in filling whatever role the party needs (short of DM, anyway) - I just want to know how the game runs and such.

Question for whatever DM here has run it - how good of a job does the Keep on the Shadowfell adventure 'show off' how 4th Ed runs? From what I've read, it seems like it does a good job, but I'm not sure.
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« Reply #156 on: June 11, 2008, 08:57:03 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on June 11, 2008, 08:51:22 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 11, 2008, 08:16:53 PM

I think the only way for us to clear up some of the rule intricacies will be for us to start our own game of D&D with people from the forum. 

I'll be happy to try filling any role, but I think my first choice would be a cleric: I like the idea of being able to fight, heal, and boost up the abilities of other people all at the same time.  On the other hand, I hope the title of "Leader" is an honorary one because I don't think I'm experienced enough to advise anyone else on what do do. icon_redface

Meanwhile, I think YellowKing and Icebear should roll for initiative to see who's going to be the forum DM.

I agree. Then we'll know for sure just how the game runs and such. I'll also be glad in filling whatever role the party needs (short of DM, anyway) - I just want to know how the game runs and such.

Question for whatever DM here has run it - how good of a job does the Keep on the Shadowfell adventure 'show off' how 4th Ed runs? From what I've read, it seems like it does a good job, but I'm not sure.

I'd love to do this on a Sat. or Sunday, I think I said before that I have at least 4 Fantasy Grounds licenses that can be used for a virtual tabletop even if we don't use it for character sheets I'm sure the map making on the fly and the dice rolling part would still suffice.
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« Reply #157 on: June 11, 2008, 09:26:13 PM »

Okay, that's three players so far, and I bet we can get Lockdown to join up if we ask.  How many people are we supposed to have in a group?

Maybe we should petition Knightshade Dragon to include a virtual tabletop feature in the upcoming redesign.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #158 on: June 11, 2008, 09:34:48 PM »

Quote
Question for whatever DM here has run it - how good of a job does the Keep on the Shadowfell adventure 'show off' how 4th Ed runs? From what I've read, it seems like it does a good job, but I'm not sure.

I think it does a great job. It is pretty much a 'classic' D&D adventure in every sense of the word, with outdoor encounters, dungeons, traps, treasure, villains, NPCs, etc. The only thing I wish it went into more detail on is skill challenges; I think they had some opportunities to throw some non-combat skill challenges in there, and I'd love to see one of those in a published adventure to truly understand how the designers thought it should work.

The module is rather combat-heavy, but since it is designed to take characters from Levels 1-3+, it almost had to be. Me (and my players) have really enjoyed it so far, and I've found enough room to be flexible that I've been able to "make it my own."
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« Reply #159 on: June 11, 2008, 09:44:33 PM »

I volunteered to play earlier as did some others, I believe.
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