http://gamingtrend.com
July 26, 2014, 01:31:20 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: IGE Banner Ad  (Read 10953 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Chesspieceface
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 140


View Profile
« on: December 16, 2005, 09:16:55 PM »

Erm, Im pretty sure that wasn't there before but I may be wrong.  Is GT deliberately advertising for MMO gold farmers or is that a distributed ad?
Logged
CrayolaSmoker
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 3614

Sponge Bath Slut


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2005, 11:00:04 PM »

Yeah.  Was wondering about that myself.  Last I checked, Blizzard didn't cotton to the idea of selling game cash for real-world dollars.
Logged

Wii: 1429 3414 0674 4114 | 360: CrayolaSmokerGT
smokingcrayolas.net | surrogacy blog
Knightshade Dragon
Administrator
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 21048



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2005, 11:03:41 PM »

Sadly, Blizzard isn't paying the bills either.  I'm not nuts about it, but in the end, if it allows us to move to a dedicated server and build up new features of the site, I think it'll be worth it.
Logged

Ron Burke
EiC, Director of Gaming Trend
Gamertag:
Gaming Trend
PS3 Tag: GamingTrend
depward
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 5540


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2005, 11:34:22 PM »

When I played FFXI (or rather, when I was addicted to it) IGE and other types of those services were "blamed" for ruining the economy in the game with Chinese gil-sellers and yaddayaddayadda.

The fact is that companies such as these exist.  And that some people (though, they argue that they simply don't "have the time to farm") use their money to obtain game money.

So, if the ad helps the site out, I don't see a problem using this particular banner ad.  Many of us might be opposed to it, but, since Gaming Trend is an all-inclusive game website, there probably are people that will click and use that site.

Plus hey, a friend of mine and I were thinking of maybe trying to sell Animal Crossing bells to people . . .  biggrin  Of course there's no way that would happen or be a good idea.  But some people would probably buy some from us.

So if it helps the site, I say it's A-OK!   smile
Logged

depward on the Playstation Network
raaaaaawwwwwwr on Xbox Live
Cota
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 120


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2005, 11:46:26 PM »

Not that you'll miss me, but I cannot support a site with those banners. I really do appreciate everything you've done for us gamers up to this point though. Thank you.

-Cota
Logged
Knightshade Dragon
Administrator
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 21048



View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2005, 11:48:27 PM »

So you'd rather the site shut down due to lack of funding rather than run an ad banner you don't have to click on?
Logged

Ron Burke
EiC, Director of Gaming Trend
Gamertag:
Gaming Trend
PS3 Tag: GamingTrend
Chesspieceface
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 140


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2005, 11:59:31 PM »

I think the bigger issue is that (whether they do it or not) Blizzard has specifically stated that anyone who purchases gold for real world cash will have their account suspended.  So...  This normally integrous site and administration, in running that ad, are advocating a service that can in fact cause the reader/purchaser to lose both their purchase and their account... and the site is partly supporting itself from a share of those marginally ill-begotten funds.

Although I see your point Ron... your argument is similar in my mind, to a starving person stealing bread from a grocery store.  "Sure its wrong, but would you rather see me starve?"
Logged
SuperHiro
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1199

Pants on Fire


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2005, 12:09:53 AM »

Hey, do what you gotta do, but this isn't a banner I'll be clicking on, dawg.

IIRC, Blizzard hates the "Ubuygold" players and suspends accounts.  I don't remember though.  Is it going to effect your relations (if any) with Blizzard?
Logged

Just Hiro will do.
Big Jake
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1300


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2005, 12:21:05 AM »

I would just like to venture my opinion:

Quote
This normally integrous site and administration, in running that ad, are advocating a service


No they're not.  If a private interest group comes up with enough money to rent a billboard, that doesn't mean the billboard owner believes in that cause.

Ron, if it helps keep the site up, by all means.
Logged

The price of great bacon is eternal vigilance.
Chesspieceface
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 140


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2005, 12:25:37 AM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
If a private interest group comes up with enough money to rent a billboard, that doesn't mean the billboard owner believes in that cause.


Well, I would argue that by accepting funds from that private interest the owner implicitly endorses the cause.
Logged
hitbyambulance
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 922


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2005, 12:28:06 AM »

while a question of 'ethics' would be overstating the matter, and disregarding my personal feelings on MMORPGs... it remains that this is the sort of business i, as a gamer, want no association with.
Logged
Knightshade Dragon
Administrator
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 21048



View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2005, 12:40:02 AM »

Fantastic.  Damned if I do, damned if I don't.  You guys want better uptime, more features, more reviews, more stable server, faster speeds.  That requires faster server and more cost.  Given that I'm 100% out of pocket for this site, you can imagine the situation.  Find me a way to make $1,200 a year to pay for a dedicated server and I'm more than happy to run no ad banners at all!  Do I condone gold farming?  I really don't care either way.  Guys at work who work 60 hours a week and don't have time to farm it themselves use it as a short cut.  I personally can't wrap my head around the thought of buying virtual property with real cash.  Does running an ad banner suddenly make this site worthless?  I ran ad banners for ebay and saw virtually $0.00.  I ran ads for that T-shirt site...$0.00.  I ran ads for Gamefly...$0.00.  You tell me...what should I do?

*frustrated*
Logged

Ron Burke
EiC, Director of Gaming Trend
Gamertag:
Gaming Trend
PS3 Tag: GamingTrend
hitbyambulance
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 922


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2005, 12:47:24 AM »

i've never complained about any ad/company before this one.  so what ad banners DO generate revenue?  i assume it's the blinky/flashy, making irritating noise Flash ones, eh?
Logged
Knightshade Dragon
Administrator
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 21048



View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2005, 12:59:17 AM »

Quote from: "hitbyambulance"
i've never complained about any ad/company before this one.  so what ad banners DO generate revenue?  i assume it's the blinky/flashy, making irritating noise Flash ones, eh?


Those, or the ones from big name companies.  Unfortunately, unless your name ends in 'spy' or 'gn' its hard to get their attention.  Or worse, its hard to get their 3rd party ad agencies attention.
Logged

Ron Burke
EiC, Director of Gaming Trend
Gamertag:
Gaming Trend
PS3 Tag: GamingTrend
Chesspieceface
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 140


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2005, 01:15:28 AM »

I hope you know I'm not trying to nail you on anything Ron.  I was just very surprised to see that there.  Although I largely lurk here, I like this community and want to see it thrive.

So I'm curious... if no other advertiser banners have generated revenue (presumably for lack of clicks) what makes IGE more attractive?  Do they pay a flat advertising fee in addition to per hit commision?  I imagine something along those lines is what makes it more attractive...?

Also I've never really understood why these independent forums don't cross advertise for each other... especially since the demise of GG.  Wouldn't everyone benefit if say GT, OO, QT3 and now perhaps BC as well just gave each other free homepage mini-banners in a mutually reciprocal agreement?  Wouldn't that theoretically make every site's sponsor advertising more lucrative?
Logged
Knightshade Dragon
Administrator
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 21048



View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2005, 01:28:57 AM »

Quote
Do they pay a flat advertising fee in addition to per hit commision?


Well, a little insight into the ad industry - these guys actually pay their bills.  I can't count how many times I've ran ads for a company only to watch the agency that is supposed to pay fold and never pay, or they'll say "Here is your xyz amount of money...in Amazon.com gift checks!"  Those don't pay the bills with our provider obviously.  They do pay a flat fee, and it is significant enough to make a difference in our costs. If they hold up their end of the deal, and we ran the ad for 2 months, we'd break even for the year.  That'd be a big step forward for us.

As for advertising exchanges with the other sites you've mentioned, I'd be more than happy to do that.  I don't know that it'd make the sponsor advertising more lucrative, but it would be good for all communities involved I think. smile
Logged

Ron Burke
EiC, Director of Gaming Trend
Gamertag:
Gaming Trend
PS3 Tag: GamingTrend
Knightshade Dragon
Administrator
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 21048



View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2005, 01:48:26 AM »

Quote from: "SuperHiro"
Hey, do what you gotta do, but this isn't a banner I'll be clicking on, dawg.

IIRC, Blizzard hates the "Ubuygold" players and suspends accounts.  I don't remember though.  Is it going to effect your relations (if any) with Blizzard?


Just so its said - I'm not encouraging anyone to click the ad.  If its your thing, knock yourself out.  If it hangs on your neck like an albatross, adblock it.  I'm just trying to stop taking so much money out of my family household to keep the site running.  I could have bought a car in cash for the money I've spent getting to this point.
Logged

Ron Burke
EiC, Director of Gaming Trend
Gamertag:
Gaming Trend
PS3 Tag: GamingTrend
dbt1949
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2618


Don't tread on me


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2005, 02:14:23 AM »

I'm confused.Is this something I need to be concerned about?
Logged

Ye Olde Farte
dbt1949
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2618


Don't tread on me


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2005, 02:28:46 AM »

Okay,I just read the ad.Altho I agree it seems silly for poeple to pay real money for fake money and items,if they have more money than sense what's the problem?
Logged

Ye Olde Farte
Knightshade Dragon
Administrator
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 21048



View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2005, 03:00:36 AM »

Thank you dbt.  smile
Logged

Ron Burke
EiC, Director of Gaming Trend
Gamertag:
Gaming Trend
PS3 Tag: GamingTrend
Destructor
Special Project Group
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 15899


▲▲▼▼◄►◄►B A Start


View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2005, 03:49:44 AM »

Quote from: "dbt1949"
Okay,I just read the ad.Altho I agree it seems silly for poeple to pay real money for fake money and items,if they have more money than sense what's the problem?

Honestly, for people, time = money.

Some people have far more money than time, so for them, buying gold and whatnot is far better than sitting around camping mobs just so you can pay for your character's expenses.
Logged

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."
Zarkon
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 4848


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2005, 04:37:46 AM »

Honestly, and I am firmly in the boat of not really wanting IGE involved, after the Austin Game Conference, I'm firmly convinced that there's no way to keep them out of MMO gaming.  The only way to really do it is to do exactly what Sony's done with the Station Exchange.  The head of Turbine basically went on record there to say that within 3 years, the secondary market (IGE, Ebay, PlayerAuctions, et al) wouldn't exist in its current form for whatever reason.

Seriously, though.  If you don't like IGE, adblock it or don't click it.  Me?  I want Gaming Trend to be here for a long time, whether I'm working for it or not.  

Hell, be glad we don't have pop-ups or pop-unders.  You want annoying ads?  Go to IGN.
Logged
CrayolaSmoker
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 3614

Sponge Bath Slut


View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2005, 04:45:42 AM »

I could care less whether some fool and his money want to be soon parted.  My only concern is the message the ad sends to developers.  Not being one, I have no clue what the developers' reactions would be, but I'd imagine anger/annoyance wouldn't be too far from coming.  I know I'd be less than happy with a burdgeoning news and review site would advertise a service whose use is expressly forbidden by EULA and gets accounts banned.

I sincerely hope this isn't the case, and that developers understand that it's currently a necessary evil for GT to stay solvent.  After all, not every site is big enough for McDonald's to launch new breakfast products via.  :wink:
Logged

Wii: 1429 3414 0674 4114 | 360: CrayolaSmokerGT
smokingcrayolas.net | surrogacy blog
VynlSol
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 680


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2005, 04:58:55 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
If they hold up their end of the deal, and we ran the ad for 2 months, we'd break even for the year.  That'd be a big step forward for us.



That's the bottom line, literally.

I don't give a shit if people want to trade hard earned (or not so hard earned) cash for pixels, so the ad doesn't bother me.

I do realize though that there are people who find it morally repugnant to participate in a behavior that skirts the rules of a game and possibly interferes with other's game experience. Therefore running a banner ad for an organization that provides that type of service could be seen as tacit endorsement. I encourage those who feel that strongly about it to pool their funds and pay this site's tab, thus eliminating the need for the ad.

I doubt running an add like that will inhibit GT's chances of growing industry contacts and whatnot. Money is money and you got to do what you can to get it. Those industry people understand that concept.
Logged
Zarkon
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 4848


View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2005, 05:01:07 AM »

Like Ron said, the MMOG companies aren't paying the server bills.  biggrin
Logged
whiteboyskim
Senior Staff Writer
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 7848


Hard partier


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2005, 05:09:19 AM »

Hey, we could go the classy route and throw a porn banner up. Or the dirty route and use a McGriddle ad. Its your call, folks. Pr0n, or McGriddles... choose wisely. ninja
Logged

Behold the glory of my new blog!
Filmmaking is vision plus faith plus balls, all 3 of which Hollywood knows little about.
VynlSol
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 680


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2005, 05:19:33 AM »

Can we get one that integrates pr0n AND McGriddles?
Logged
DarkEL
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2931



View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2005, 06:05:27 AM »

I'll say this about the ads - even though i know i may be crucified for it.

I'm a super busy guy as the staff can attest to. So I barely have time to game. Heck I've got an account on WoW that I've been paying for but haven't logged into once since August. I've always been interested in potentially buying gold to save my already exhausted time next time I play, but never did because most of the ads looked like they were probably fairly fly-by-night organizations.

But since I know now that this company has some money behind it, and can feel a little safer about the fact that I won't lose my money if I try them. I may just very well give it a go.

Not going through the drudgery of trying to "earn" that much money in game is worth $50 to me.  Allows me to spend my time having fun, instead of trying to build up my skinning / mining / tailoring / etc skills.  

Besides I figure that most of the people who complain are also the same people who the only reason they have a lot of their expensive gear is because they were able to invest time into building relationships with guildmates and other to "help them" obtain most of those items. So I don't really see the difference.

And if for some reason Blizzard caught me and banned me - well guess what - I barely play anyways - so it would just be the kick in the pants for me to quit completely and save a couple bucks every month.

And let me end this by clarifying  that I'm saying while i don't see any problems ethically with buying gold or buying items,  I do disagree with other things such as buying pre-leveled characters or paying people to level up your own character for you. I mean, its one thing to be able to buy better tools - it's another to not understand how to effectivly play your own character.
Logged
DarkEL
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2931



View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2005, 06:15:33 AM »

One last thought - my biggest frustration with the MMO's is that the higher you go the more they try to force you into this social mold that I don't want to be in.  In the MMO world - I'd rather go solo most of the time and be a lot more casual.  But that's not what they want.

Oh you'd like to get some cool looking armor?

Well guess you'll have to convice 100 friends to sit for 5 hours on a saturday to camp some elite spawn with you - and hope that it drops otherwise you'll have to try again in 24 hours.

Oh you can't get 100 friends to help you. Well, guess your f***ed unless you can earn 3 billion gold from selling loot and skinning animals to buy it off some guild of people who did have the people and the time to waste fetching one.
Logged
DarkEL
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2931



View Profile WWW
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2005, 06:16:47 AM »

Quote from: "VynlSol"
Can we get one that integrates pr0n AND McGriddles?


Oooh - now that is a GOOD idea.  

Heck, even I would click that banner ad.
Logged
gameoverman
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1422


View Profile
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2005, 10:03:32 AM »

Wow, all this "I can't condone this kind of thing" over that ad?!?!
 
I'm not a MMORPG gamer, so maybe I'm missing something here, can someone enlighten me?

Why does anyone care how another person playing WoW got his armor, or gold or whatever?  Why does anyone care what Blizzard(or whoever) thinks about it?

What I mean is, let's say I WAS playing Wow, and I spent my own real money to buy some gold.  How does that affect YOU?  Why should Blizzard have anything to say about it?

We are talking about actual 'game' gold and items right, not hacked stuff such as seen in Diablo 2?  Cause if it is hacked stuff, I totally understand.  

But if Gamer A accumulates game gold or items, and sells it to Gamer B for 'real' money, who does it hurt and how?
Logged
DamageInc
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2412


Starts with s and ends with litting their throats


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2005, 10:55:43 AM »

It hurts the game economy.

More available gold = more people trying to sell things at higher rates.

This hurts the people who may not be able to buy gold, and then they are concerned about their ability to compete.

In essence it is analogous with the small business vs. corporate giant.

Both entities have goals that they want to accomplish, but the corporate giant makes it harder for the little guys by doing some good ole fashioned cash chucking.

The other camp is happy that these services exist because for many players time is more valuable than real money. Player "B" wants to be able to compete with the people that can play 20 hours a day.

The only way the casual gamer, or the 2 to 4 hours a day gamer, can compete is if they can buy gold.

IMHO, economics and gameplay balance are two of the biggest issues faced by MMO companies.
Logged

The freaks come out at nine and it's twenty to ten
gameoverman
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1422


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2005, 11:16:50 AM »

I kind of see what you are saying but there's something I'm missing still:

If Gamer A camps somewhere and gathers X amount of golds, and then spends it on an item(driving up the price), how is that acceptable but if Gamer A camps/gathers gold/then sells it to Gamer B and Gamer B is the one who spends it on that item- that's not acceptable?  Either way, that gold is going into the economy.
Logged
DamageInc
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2412


Starts with s and ends with litting their throats


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2005, 01:04:17 PM »

It is no different then printing more money. It creates inflation.
Logged

The freaks come out at nine and it's twenty to ten
Orinoco Womble
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 28


View Profile
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2005, 03:00:58 PM »

Quote from: "gameoverman"
I kind of see what you are saying but there's something I'm missing still:

If Gamer A camps somewhere and gathers X amount of golds, and then spends it on an item(driving up the price), how is that acceptable but if Gamer A camps/gathers gold/then sells it to Gamer B and Gamer B is the one who spends it on that item- that's not acceptable?  Either way, that gold is going into the economy.



I think the issue is that the gold farmers (usually Chinese paid peanuts) spend ALL their time camping for gold. They will collect a LOT more gold then a gamer spending a few hours doing so. They can also rotate people on an account, so 2-3 people can spend 24 hours farming for gold. No gamer can compete with that...

I've always though that part of the problem is how game economies are set up. In theory there is is infinite gold "out there". Even the devs can't control it - if you choose to spend all your time farming for it. I've never understood why games are not set up like the real world, with governments controling the supply of money (or at least attempting to).


/off topic
Actually, I've never understood why games don't have real governments with policies and goals that they push for - usually, all you get is "the King needs you collect 20 foozles for some lame reason".
/end sub off topic
Logged

I'm just wombling free...
Graham
Managing Editor
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 4015


View Profile WWW
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2005, 04:54:20 PM »

Unfortunately, this is a business, and the server isn't cheap.  How many sites out there have an extensive game database like we have?  If it's an independent site like ours, it's doubtful.  Recently I posted about an independent game store that closed down because of capital.  That's the sad truth.  Sites like this need money to run.
Logged

Partial Owner of the World Champion Green Bay Packers
dbt1949
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2618


Don't tread on me


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2005, 06:27:11 PM »

Well,I personally don't have a problem with the banner but am better able to understand those of you who do.
I think the main problem is with the developers(or whoever runs the games) not taking actions to stop this "cheating".Evidently it doesn't bother them too much or they would.
Logged

Ye Olde Farte
Destructor
Special Project Group
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 15899


▲▲▼▼◄►◄►B A Start


View Profile WWW
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2005, 06:39:49 PM »

Quote from: "dbt1949"
Well,I personally don't have a problem with the banner but am better able to understand those of you who do.
I think the main problem is with the developers(or whoever runs the games) not taking actions to stop this "cheating".Evidently it doesn't bother them too much or they would.

They try to do so, but their powers are kinda limited. Let's take WoW for example:

If you head out and 'buy' gold, all that happens is that you suddenly get a chunk of money in your mailbox. Now, did this money come from a gold farmer, or one of your character's alts? Or did it come from a friend? Or guildmate?

Even very large amounts of gold being sent around in WoW isn't too uncommon. Remember - it costs 1k gold to purchase an epic horse. And for those players who have had an account since the beginning, that amount of money isn't too rare anymore.

So, in short - how exactly do you prove it?
Logged

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."
dbt1949
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2618


Don't tread on me


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2005, 06:53:18 PM »

How do they get they "bought" money/items into the game?Just add it to your save game in the game directory or what?
Logged

Ye Olde Farte
Destructor
Special Project Group
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 15899


▲▲▼▼◄►◄►B A Start


View Profile WWW
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2005, 07:57:08 PM »

Quote from: "dbt1949"
How do they get they "bought" money/items into the game?Just add it to your save game in the game directory or what?

Correct me if I don't actually answer the question you asked (as I'm kinda confused by it), but these sites just farm for gold in MMOs instead of you.

So when you head off and buy MMO gold with real cash, all they do is take some MMO gold stored up in their characters and transfer it to your ingame character (either by mailing it to you or simply opening up a trade window and giving it to you).

So instead of you farming/camping mobs for hours on end, they do all the camping for you. You just have to pay them for their time.
Logged

"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.149 seconds with 103 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0.04s, 2q)