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Author Topic: XBOX Kinect  (Read 32352 times)
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Space Herpes
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« Reply #120 on: June 16, 2010, 05:59:25 PM »

See, I hate to exercise.  I do it (sort of) but I really don't like it.  I would like a way to work my body through an experience that allows me to forget I'm exercising.  I expect something that really works could be made in the next gen.  A mix of some sort of a Wii/Move controller with a Kinect sensor bar would be ideal for motion control.  Full body sensor with the intricate contol of a handheld device could be really cool.  Hardcore and casual games could take advantage of that set up. 
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« Reply #121 on: June 16, 2010, 06:07:26 PM »

I also do not dream of lightsaber battles, but I like the idea of being able to engage in physical activity. I think you might be dreaming about it too much... I mean, when one plays Wii Sports Golf, one tries to maintain form without ACTUALLY launching a small white object 200+yards. Fact is, the resistance isn't their either. No, it's not perfect; it comes closer than pulling back on the R stick and pushing upwards though.

It's all on how the game plays. I'm getting a little annoyed with the people saying yuck without trying it yet...

If I were to introduce a product (aka "video game") where you press a button and things die, would you cry out that it doesn't accurately simulate the act of shooting a gun? Most games we play today still allow us to use controls our brains use to interpret control, but by no means do they come close to actually doing the thing we are mimicking. For some the idea of not being sedentary is a knock against the game, and that's OK. I have two younger boys, one of which is on his little arse all the time. You wanna play? Get up!

We're all ~5 months away from the answers, and while they've shown certain games to us, by no means is that the extent of the product. We don't know about profiles, face recognition, leaning, subtle gesturing or even combining the controller with the kinetic gameplay to offer more control for complex games.

Yes, MS's E3 conference had a poor showing from a hardcore perspective. Yes, Sony had a relatively boring showing (albeit better than MS according to the majority of folks here). Yes, everyone is pumped for some big N rehashes (but criticize the industry for being stagnant in relying on rehashes). 480p is apparently exciting.

Fact of the matter is, that I'm in this thread here, looking forward to this product. I am hoping that I get a decent experience out of Kinect because I am likely to get one based on what I've seen and what we've heard about. I am also interested in the PS3 Move, if only to see if they can take the WiiMote into adult-land.

I look forward to not having a battery operated controller, and MS might have the next viable step towards that reality. I find the Wiimote motion+button-pushing awkward and the learning curve is longer than just buttons (which I have been trained to understand).

</rant>

Now, about that Human Tetris...
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« Reply #122 on: June 16, 2010, 06:13:03 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 16, 2010, 06:07:26 PM

We don't know about profiles, face recognition, leaning, subtle gesturing or even combining the controller with the kinetic gameplay to offer more control for complex games.

That's what worries me- they were highlighting most of that stuff a year ago.  Now it seems like they are backpedaling.  Is it for technical reasons (ie maybe not ready for primetime) or is it for marketing?  I don't know but not showing that stuff is what is leading me to think they are just in follow the Wii mode.

I'm hearing a lot about lag regarding the Kinect and it occurs to me that may be why they aren't highlighting controller integration.  The controller has a lot less lag than the motion stuff and that may create a disconnect when trying to use both at the same time. 
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« Reply #123 on: June 16, 2010, 06:14:20 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 16, 2010, 06:07:26 PM

blah blah blah, more blah blah blah

</rant>

Now, about that Human Tetris...

I agree with Purge here.  I really am looking forward to see what they can do with Kinect.  That, and I showed my daughter the Kinectimals E3 demo, and she went apeshit over the tiger.  She was laughing and asking if she could play with it.  My wife liked Dance Central, and when I told her that Ubi announced a Michael Jackson game, that all but assured it would have a place in our house.
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« Reply #124 on: June 16, 2010, 06:16:08 PM »

When watching the 360 slim boot, it goes way faster than mine... perhaps they've had to "dumb it down" for their existing market footprint? I'm wondering what tech differences actually exist between the two systems, and whether Kinect as a slim-only option would have had a better h/w platform to handle the intricate complexities required to get better control?
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« Reply #125 on: June 16, 2010, 06:18:09 PM »

ooo, a live enabled version of charades... smile
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« Reply #126 on: June 16, 2010, 06:19:40 PM »

I'm guessing that Microsoft has been wrestling with the lag vs price problem for a while.  They are trying to offload alot of the processing to the 360 instead of including it in the Kinect device in order to keep the price down.  I'm guessing at this point they are not willing to eat a loss on every unit.  But it may be necessary in order to get people to buy the thing.  
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« Reply #127 on: June 16, 2010, 06:31:39 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 16, 2010, 05:36:13 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 16, 2010, 05:09:49 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 16, 2010, 03:18:16 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on June 16, 2010, 02:55:47 PM

Quote from: Destructor on June 16, 2010, 02:50:55 PM

Microsoft totally bombed at E3. If I wanted to do the 'real life' things that Kinetc does, I'll just go into REAL LIFE and do it.

yeah!  if I wanted to whip out my lightsaber and fight Darth Vader I'd just give him a ring and we could go down to the park!  he could bring his fried chicken pot pie.

 Tongue

I thought the lightsaber combat references were funny back when the Wii was new, and I think they're funny now. I simply can't see any way in which lightsaber combat can be done with this kind of technology without making the whole thing seem completely stupid. Few of us can fence in the first place, and the Star Wars battles have always been really fast-paced (perhaps with the exception of the battle between Vader and Obi-Wan in Episode 4). Being able to wave a lightsaber around is one thing. Being able to actually fight with it is another. I simply don't think it can be done in a satisfying way.


None of these games are meant to be a lightsaber simulator, though.  They are meant to be a fun experience that makes you feel like you're weilding a lightsaber.  That should not be as hard to do.

Doesn't matter. There's no way they can even evoke the feeling of wielding a lightsaber with this tech. You'll just end up looking clumsy while you try to translate your movements to your avatar, and you'll get confused when your avatar's weapon meets resistance which you don't, leading to you being out of sync.

It's never going to work like you imagine in your dreams. This is the big failing of these control systems. Everyone seems to want a swordfighting game, but the fact that we still haven't seen anything halfway decent on that front should be a big hint in itself. The Kinetic doesn't do anything with swords that the Wii couldn't do, so I don't see why you're expecting things to change now.



Post of the fucking MILLENNIUM! Tilt, you sir are 100% correct. Listen to this man people, he just explained what I have been feeling and trying to say, since 2006. It isn't that motion control is necessarily a bad idea, it just doesn't have the correct feel and sensation, and likely won't for many, many years.
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« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2010, 06:43:52 PM »

I'm sure that I missed this info somewhere, but in case I might ever, ever want to consider getting this thing, what's the minimum distance at which it can be used? I play my 360 on a 24" monitor that doubles as my PC screen and it's one arm length away from my face. And I sit while I play. Is there any way I'm going to find this a worthwhile add-on, assuming that they make games that are appealing to me?
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« Reply #129 on: June 16, 2010, 06:44:01 PM »

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 06:31:39 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 16, 2010, 05:36:13 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 16, 2010, 05:09:49 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 16, 2010, 03:18:16 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on June 16, 2010, 02:55:47 PM

Quote from: Destructor on June 16, 2010, 02:50:55 PM

Microsoft totally bombed at E3. If I wanted to do the 'real life' things that Kinetc does, I'll just go into REAL LIFE and do it.

yeah!  if I wanted to whip out my lightsaber and fight Darth Vader I'd just give him a ring and we could go down to the park!  he could bring his fried chicken pot pie.

 Tongue

I thought the lightsaber combat references were funny back when the Wii was new, and I think they're funny now. I simply can't see any way in which lightsaber combat can be done with this kind of technology without making the whole thing seem completely stupid. Few of us can fence in the first place, and the Star Wars battles have always been really fast-paced (perhaps with the exception of the battle between Vader and Obi-Wan in Episode 4). Being able to wave a lightsaber around is one thing. Being able to actually fight with it is another. I simply don't think it can be done in a satisfying way.


None of these games are meant to be a lightsaber simulator, though.  They are meant to be a fun experience that makes you feel like you're weilding a lightsaber.  That should not be as hard to do.

Doesn't matter. There's no way they can even evoke the feeling of wielding a lightsaber with this tech. You'll just end up looking clumsy while you try to translate your movements to your avatar, and you'll get confused when your avatar's weapon meets resistance which you don't, leading to you being out of sync.

It's never going to work like you imagine in your dreams. This is the big failing of these control systems. Everyone seems to want a swordfighting game, but the fact that we still haven't seen anything halfway decent on that front should be a big hint in itself. The Kinetic doesn't do anything with swords that the Wii couldn't do, so I don't see why you're expecting things to change now.



Post of the fucking MILLENNIUM! Tilt, you sir are 100% correct. Listen to this man people, he just explained what I have been feeling and trying to say, since 2006. It isn't that motion control is necessarily a bad idea, it just doesn't have the correct feel and sensation, and likely won't for many, many years.

That's not really what I'm saying. It works well for certain things like gold and bowling, but less well for more unpredictable actions where your avatar can't be in full control of his movement (such as when hitting the opponent's blade or armor, or even a wall, in a swordfight).
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« Reply #130 on: June 16, 2010, 06:50:14 PM »

Hey take a compliment will ya?  Tongue

No, we're saying the same thing. The feel of resistance, even when swinging a golf club, cannot be mimicked with a Wiimote, and the things we see with Natal aren't helping. Motion needs a counter-motion, when you swing a baseball bat, you need to feel the bat hit the ball, otherwise your just flailing at your TV, same with swordfighting, like you said.
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« Reply #131 on: June 16, 2010, 07:12:45 PM »

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 06:50:14 PM

Hey take a compliment will ya?  Tongue

No, we're saying the same thing. The feel of resistance, even when swinging a golf club, cannot be mimicked with a Wiimote, and the things we see with Natal aren't helping. Motion needs a counter-motion, when you swing a baseball bat, you need to feel the bat hit the ball, otherwise your just flailing at your TV, same with swordfighting, like you said.

There is no way to replicate the feel of a 90 MPH fast ball hitting your bat in your living room.  However, I'd much rather at least do a swinging motion to hit a baseball than to press A.  Your hopes for motion control are way too high to be achieved and you refuse to settle for something less.  Therefore, you will never enjoy motion control.  The good news is that you will probably get the option to do either so you can stick with button pressing.
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« Reply #132 on: June 16, 2010, 07:15:04 PM »

If only Holodecks were real. We'll get there someday...
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« Reply #133 on: June 16, 2010, 07:28:16 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 16, 2010, 07:12:45 PM

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 06:50:14 PM

Hey take a compliment will ya?  Tongue

No, we're saying the same thing. The feel of resistance, even when swinging a golf club, cannot be mimicked with a Wiimote, and the things we see with Natal aren't helping. Motion needs a counter-motion, when you swing a baseball bat, you need to feel the bat hit the ball, otherwise your just flailing at your TV, same with swordfighting, like you said.

There is no way to replicate the feel of a 90 MPH fast ball hitting your bat in your living room.  However, I'd much rather at least do a swinging motion to hit a baseball than to press A.  Your hopes for motion control are way too high to be achieved and you refuse to settle for something less.  Therefore, you will never enjoy motion control.  The good news is that you will probably get the option to do either so you can stick with button pressing.

I hope so.

Again though, if you don't have resistance of some sort, you're just flailing and despite what you might thing, you really don't have the control you have with just a simple controller. That is why this whole motion control fad is just gimmicky. We've got a great bowling simulator, a great pet simulator (what's wrong with real pets?), etc, but nothing of substance, nothing that's even remotely decent, that makes most gamers want to shy away from the controller and go to the motion controls and from what I have seen out of the 3 companies, there isn't really anything revolutionary coming to make me think this is going to catch on with the hardcore gaming crowd.

That begs another question...why do it then? Because Nintendo sold a bunch of Wii's? Ok, so they have, but they have the lowest game attach rate, they have the worst software library, and they have motion controlled games that prove that the motion fad has a long way to go. It's akin to copying the homework of the richest kid in school, even though he has mediocre to poor grades. The're copying Nintendo even though the motion controls aren't the selling point for the Wii, the price was. If Sony and Microsoft want to copy Nintendo, then copy their pricing of the hardware, not gimmicky motion technology. This just burns me up and like that writer with cracked.com (I think it was them) said, this really is the beginning of the end for the gaming industry and probably the point where I will look back one day and say "this started me losing interest in video games".
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« Reply #134 on: June 16, 2010, 07:30:00 PM »

Quote from: spigot on June 16, 2010, 07:15:04 PM

If only Holodecks were real. We'll get there someday...

Agreed and when that day comes and when you can tactile response with motion controls, I will be all over it. Until then, I will keep the controller, pet my REAL dog, dance in a REAL club, and push stop when I want to stop a video, rather than barking out orders to my system.
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« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2010, 07:33:32 PM »

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:28:16 PM


That begs another question...why do it then?

Becaue millions of people are okay with what Nintendo implemented.  Basically, it's good enough for them to enjoy themselves.
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« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2010, 07:34:53 PM »

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:30:00 PM

Quote from: spigot on June 16, 2010, 07:15:04 PM

If only Holodecks were real. We'll get there someday...

Agreed and when that day comes and when you can tactile response with motion controls, I will be all over it. Until then, I will keep the controller, pet my REAL dog, dance in a REAL club, and push stop when I want to stop a video, rather than barking out orders to my system.

And pick up REAL poop, get REAL rejections, and get carpal tunnel syndrome. slywink
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« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2010, 07:36:24 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 16, 2010, 07:33:32 PM

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:28:16 PM


That begs another question...why do it then?

Becaue millions of people are okay with what Nintendo implemented.  Basically, it's good enough for them to enjoy themselves.

I'll challenge that belief to my dying day. Motion controls didn't sell the Wii, it might have piqued some interest in the novelty of it, but it being $100 cheaper sold the Wii. It was for me and my family and now, like others here say, it's merely a dust collector? Why? Because of the controls, because of the lack of good content, and the lack of HD.
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« Reply #138 on: June 16, 2010, 07:37:39 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 16, 2010, 07:34:53 PM

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:30:00 PM

Quote from: spigot on June 16, 2010, 07:15:04 PM

If only Holodecks were real. We'll get there someday...

Agreed and when that day comes and when you can tactile response with motion controls, I will be all over it. Until then, I will keep the controller, pet my REAL dog, dance in a REAL club, and push stop when I want to stop a video, rather than barking out orders to my system.

And pick up REAL poop, get REAL rejections, and get carpal tunnel syndrome. slywink

Exactly. smile

You guys think I am rough on motion controls? You should hear my wife rail at the imprecision of the thing.
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« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2010, 07:41:12 PM »

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:36:24 PM

Quote from: The Grue on June 16, 2010, 07:33:32 PM

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:28:16 PM


That begs another question...why do it then?

Becaue millions of people are okay with what Nintendo implemented.  Basically, it's good enough for them to enjoy themselves.

I'll challenge that belief to my dying day. Motion controls didn't sell the Wii, it might have piqued some interest in the novelty of it, but it being $100 cheaper sold the Wii. It was for me and my family and now, like others here say, it's merely a dust collector? Why? Because of the controls, because of the lack of good content, and the lack of HD.

You don't think the that the motion controls for Wii Sports is what sold it?  Everyone I know who tried it out bought one because it was almost like the real thing.  Why did they not stay interested?  Well, probably because there haven't been nearly as many games that capture that same feeling and because the really, really casual people don't buy a ton of games.  Still, the system continues to sell, though, so someone is buying them (I own two).

I will also tell you from anecdotal evidence that I know tons of people whose only console is a Wii.  These were people who had never owned a system of any kind in the past and they bought the Wii because the motion controls looked fun and because Nintendo has some weight in people's minds because of them growing up with it as kids.
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« Reply #140 on: June 16, 2010, 07:58:17 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 16, 2010, 07:41:12 PM

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:36:24 PM

Quote from: The Grue on June 16, 2010, 07:33:32 PM

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:28:16 PM


That begs another question...why do it then?

Becaue millions of people are okay with what Nintendo implemented.  Basically, it's good enough for them to enjoy themselves.

I'll challenge that belief to my dying day. Motion controls didn't sell the Wii, it might have piqued some interest in the novelty of it, but it being $100 cheaper sold the Wii. It was for me and my family and now, like others here say, it's merely a dust collector? Why? Because of the controls, because of the lack of good content, and the lack of HD.

You don't think the that the motion controls for Wii Sports is what sold it?  Everyone I know who tried it out bought one because it was almost like the real thing.  Why did they not stay interested?  Well, probably because there haven't been nearly as many games that capture that same feeling and because the really, really casual people don't buy a ton of games.  Still, the system continues to sell, though, so someone is buying them (I own two).

I will also tell you from anecdotal evidence that I know tons of people whose only console is a Wii.  These were people who had never owned a system of any kind in the past and they bought the Wii because the motion controls looked fun and because Nintendo has some weight in people's minds because of them growing up with it as kids.

We'll just agree to disagree I guess, but I think price was a HUGE selling point. I've got 4 buddies that have one, as well as us here, and although I enjoy Mario Kart Wii with my son (we use the classic controller) neither he, nor my wife and I, like any of the motion stuff. My friends rarely play it also. One doesn't mind the motion controls, but mostly they just don't think there is anything good to play.

I think it's a poor system, badly thought out, underpowered, cruddy games and the longer in it's life, the more comments like those keep popping up here and elsewhere online.

If you like it that's cool though, knock yourself out. smile
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« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2010, 08:06:21 PM »

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:58:17 PM

Quote from: The Grue on June 16, 2010, 07:41:12 PM

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:36:24 PM

Quote from: The Grue on June 16, 2010, 07:33:32 PM

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 07:28:16 PM


That begs another question...why do it then?

Becaue millions of people are okay with what Nintendo implemented.  Basically, it's good enough for them to enjoy themselves.

I'll challenge that belief to my dying day. Motion controls didn't sell the Wii, it might have piqued some interest in the novelty of it, but it being $100 cheaper sold the Wii. It was for me and my family and now, like others here say, it's merely a dust collector? Why? Because of the controls, because of the lack of good content, and the lack of HD.

You don't think the that the motion controls for Wii Sports is what sold it?  Everyone I know who tried it out bought one because it was almost like the real thing.  Why did they not stay interested?  Well, probably because there haven't been nearly as many games that capture that same feeling and because the really, really casual people don't buy a ton of games.  Still, the system continues to sell, though, so someone is buying them (I own two).

I will also tell you from anecdotal evidence that I know tons of people whose only console is a Wii.  These were people who had never owned a system of any kind in the past and they bought the Wii because the motion controls looked fun and because Nintendo has some weight in people's minds because of them growing up with it as kids.

We'll just agree to disagree I guess, but I think price was a HUGE selling point. I've got 4 buddies that have one, as well as us here, and although I enjoy Mario Kart Wii with my son (we use the classic controller) neither he, nor my wife and I, like any of the motion stuff. My friends rarely play it also. One doesn't mind the motion controls, but mostly they just don't think there is anything good to play.

I think it's a poor system, badly thought out, underpowered, cruddy games and the longer in it's life, the more comments like those keep popping up here and elsewhere online.

If you like it that's cool though, knock yourself out. smile

I'm with Grue on this one- the Wii motion controls are what pulled my wife and daughter into gaming, which basically meant my son and I had to compete for TV time for our 360 Tongue Everybody I know who owns a Wii (new gamers) love it for primarily the motion controlled games and don't even have a classic controller. You, like most of us here at GT, are in the minority in regards to the mass appeal of the system.
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« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2010, 08:10:52 PM »

That's ok. As the title under my avatar says, "Always outnumbered........." smile

I just think the Wii is gaming for the lowest common denominator. Poor graphics, poor control, poor games, but look at all the new gamers. Let Nintendo keep 'em. MS and Sony are chasing the wrong crowd. Rather than piss money away on more bullshit virtual pet touchy feely 10 year old girl games, with motion controls, differentiate yourself and stand up for the hardcore crowd. Give the casual market to Nintendo and flip 'em the bird while you rule with the real gamers.
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« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2010, 08:12:31 PM »

If price was the main motivating factor in Wii purchases, we would've seen comparable sales for the PS2 (which was way under $200 for a long time), and sales for the 360 Arcade should have exploded to Wii levels when they dropped that price to $200.  These things didn't happen, which leads me to believe that the people buying Wiis find something compelling about motion controls that a large portion of the "core" gaming audience doesn't seem to get.
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« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2010, 08:15:42 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on June 16, 2010, 08:12:31 PM

If price was the main motivating factor in Wii purchases, we would've seen comparable sales for the PS2 (which was way under $200 for a long time), and sales for the 360 Arcade should have exploded to Wii levels when they dropped that price to $200.  These things didn't happen, which leads me to believe that the people buying Wiis find something compelling about motion controls that a large portion of the "core" gaming audience doesn't seem to get.

More significantly, the Gamecube was significantly cheaper than the PS2 and Xbox at launch and it didn't help them much. 
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« Reply #145 on: June 16, 2010, 08:17:18 PM »

The "fuck 'em, we don't want 'em" attitude doesn't work when you're running a business.  If there are customers over there, you want to bring them to you.  MS and Sony are not abandoning the "core" audience.  If it turns out that the "casual" audience is more lucrative, developers will start catering to them.  This is basic capitalism.  

If you go back several years, take your conversation, and replace "motion controls" and "casuals" with "consoles" and "console gamers", and "core games" with "PC games", you pretty much have what happened when the market transitioned from PC support to console support.
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« Reply #146 on: June 16, 2010, 08:18:40 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on June 16, 2010, 08:12:31 PM

If price was the main motivating factor in Wii purchases, we would've seen comparable sales for the PS2 (which was way under $200 for a long time), and sales for the 360 Arcade should have exploded to Wii levels when they dropped that price to $200.  These things didn't happen, which leads me to believe that the people buying Wiis find something compelling about motion controls that a large portion of the "core" gaming audience doesn't seem to get.

But look at when it was doing its best. It was before the major price cuts. Considering all the used Wii's on ebay, even if they got sucked in with motion control gimmickry, they didn't enjoy it for long.
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« Reply #147 on: June 16, 2010, 08:20:54 PM »

How do you know they didn't enjoy it for long?  Given sales numbers for recent games like Mario Galaxy 2, I'd say plenty of people still are.

Plus, the PS2 was available for much cheaper than the Wii at the Wii's launch.  Why weren't the cheapskates buying PS2s over Wiis if price was the motivating factor?
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« Reply #148 on: June 16, 2010, 08:21:18 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on June 16, 2010, 08:17:18 PM

The "fuck 'em, we don't want 'em" attitude doesn't work when you're running a business.  If there are customers over there, you want to bring them to you.  MS and Sony are not abandoning the "core" audience.  If it turns out that the "casual" audience is more lucrative, developers will start catering to them.  This is basic capitalism.  

If you go back several years, take your conversation, and replace "motion controls" and "casuals" with "consoles" and "console gamers", and "core games" with "PC games", you pretty much have what happened when the market transitioned from PC support to console support.

But that's just it, the customers aren't gonna pay $159 for Kinect. If they want motion controls, they'll buy a Wii for $10 less. It's just a waste of money for something I'm not sure Microsoft's customers give two shits about. Sony seems to have a (slightly) better grasp of how to do this, but even they are really reaching if they think Move is going to revolutionize anything and bring billions into their coffers.
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« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2010, 08:22:02 PM »

Because I helped get this thing off topic, I will help get it on.  I am not convinced that Kinect is going to be as good as Move or the Wii as far as motion-controlled gaming goes.  What I would like to personally see Kinect do is augment the hardcore games.  I already saw a bit of it with Forza with the system seeing where you are looking so you can peek around corners and look around.  Not that Microsft shouldn't make these kinds of "Wii-too" (did you see what I did there?) games, but they have a chance more than the other system to do some even cooler things than that.  Imagine playing Dead Space and you can make gestures to bring up the HUD and to navigate through it Minority Report style.  What about RPGs that read facial expressions or you can talk to?  I think if they went this route, hard core gamers might be more open to it.  What they showed at E3, though, isn't going to make them excited.

It's funny, though, because I am a hardcore gamer (I spend a ton of money on games, own all three consoles and both portable systems, and spend my time constantly reading video game news) and I think motion controls are fine.   I think these silly lowest common denominator games are just peachy.  I just like to game and I have as much fun leading Mario through a level as mowing down bad guys in Red Dead Redemption.  I like both Cooking Mama and JRPGs.  So, I will be buying Kinect and Move (already own the aforementioned 2 Wiis) and checking out what they have to offer.  I don't think they will ruin the future of gaming, but instead serve to act as a place that casuals can go to play (and me as well) that is a place that sits besides where the hardcore (also me) can go to get their fun.
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« Reply #150 on: June 16, 2010, 08:24:46 PM »

Quote from: jblank
This just burns me up and like that writer with cracked.com (I think it was them) said, this really is the beginning of the end for the gaming industry and probably the point where I will look back one day and say "this started me losing interest in video games".

There's that DOOM!!!11!! outlook again.  Why does the existence of motion control have to be the 'beginning of the end' for the gaming industry?  Why does this mean companies will stop making games that use a 'normal' control scheme?  It doesn't.

If you don't like Kinect / Move / Wiimote, don't play them.

Where I think the real threat is, is where there is a hobby that 'core people' are comfortable with, then some event happens which brings casuals into it.  Music is a great example.  There are fans of a band which isn't really well known, or the music style doesn't appeal to many.  Once that band becomes known, more people start listening to them and the 'original' fans get pissed off at all the 'band-wagoners' and start calling the band itself a sell-out.  

Most people in groups like this hate it when their exclusive band / music / style / hobby becomes more inclusive to the general populace, which they then adopt a 'salted earth' policy and completely abandon it.  But what happens?  that band / music / style / hobby still goes on without them, and everyone else continues to enjoy.

The gaming industry will continue without you.  Find another hobby that not many others care about to attach yourself to.
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« Reply #151 on: June 16, 2010, 08:26:34 PM »

I do agree that the motion controls and Wii Sports were the primary reason's for the success of the Wii.  But I think people who only enjoy Wii Sports, and only dig out the Wii at parties, are not going to be interested in upgrading to a 360 and Kinect just for more motion controls.  For the amount of gaming they do the Wii is good enough. Microsoft seems to be trying to appeal to people who already have a Wii and I'm not sure how well that is going to work.  I wish they would have geared their Kinect presentation more towards people who already own 360s.  They could have shown how Kinect makes the games they already own better.  They chose not to do that.
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« Reply #152 on: June 16, 2010, 08:30:19 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on June 16, 2010, 08:26:34 PM

I do agree that the motion controls and Wii Sports were the primary reason's for the success of the Wii.  But I think people who only enjoy Wii Sports, and only dig out the Wii at parties, are not going to be interested in upgrading to a 360 and Kinect just for more motion controls.  For the amount of gaming they do the Wii is good enough.  Microsoft seems to be trying to appeal to people who already have a Wii and I'm not sure how well that is going to work.

It'll work just fine.

I own a Wii, I enjoy Wii Sports, and I only dig out the Wii at parties (with the very recent exception of Monster Hunter Tri.  That game makes me forget I'm playing on a Wii).  I also have a 360, and will upgrade to Kinect for the motion controls.  The only reason I don't have a PS3 is because I'm just not interested in most of the exclusive offerings on that console, and the other offerings are found on the 360.

Also, my 7 year old cannot own a tiger in real life, so having a tiger as a pet in Kinectimals is the only way he's going to.
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« Reply #153 on: June 16, 2010, 08:31:09 PM »

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 16, 2010, 08:24:46 PM

Quote from: jblank
This just burns me up and like that writer with cracked.com (I think it was them) said, this really is the beginning of the end for the gaming industry and probably the point where I will look back one day and say "this started me losing interest in video games".

There's that DOOM!!!11!! outlook again.  Why does the existence of motion control have to be the 'beginning of the end' for the gaming industry?  Why does this mean companies will stop making games that use a 'normal' control scheme?  It doesn't.

If you don't like Kinect / Move / Wiimote, don't play them.

Where I think the real threat is, is where there is a hobby that 'core people' are comfortable with, then some event happens which brings casuals into it.  Music is a great example.  There are fans of a band which isn't really well known, or the music style doesn't appeal to many.  Once that band becomes known, more people start listening to them and the 'original' fans get pissed off at all the 'band-wagoners' and start calling the band itself a sell-out.  

Most people in groups like this hate it when their exclusive band / music / style / hobby becomes more inclusive to the general populace, which they then adopt a 'salted earth' policy and completely abandon it.  But what happens?  that band / music / style / hobby still goes on without them, and everyone else continues to enjoy.

The gaming industry will continue without you.  Find another hobby that not many others care about to attach yourself to.

Because when a company throws money at something huge like this (in their mind) they feel pressured to support it. That means more resources towards it and away from other things and quality will inevitably suffer, especially when vendors feel pressure to include motion stuff in games where it shouldn't be present.

Why should I find another hobby? I'm the type of gamer they should WANT to keep. I buy all new games (I have probably bought 75 games in the last year), I have all 3 system, etc, etc, etc. Why should I have to bounce out of the hobby? Let the casual gamer go, I am harder to attract and keep than they are.
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« Reply #154 on: June 16, 2010, 08:32:55 PM »

How did the Forza demo dude brake and accelerate anyhow. I'm guessing it detected his slight foot movements too?
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« Reply #155 on: June 16, 2010, 08:34:01 PM »

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 16, 2010, 08:30:19 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on June 16, 2010, 08:26:34 PM

I do agree that the motion controls and Wii Sports were the primary reason's for the success of the Wii.  But I think people who only enjoy Wii Sports, and only dig out the Wii at parties, are not going to be interested in upgrading to a 360 and Kinect just for more motion controls.  For the amount of gaming they do the Wii is good enough.  Microsoft seems to be trying to appeal to people who already have a Wii and I'm not sure how well that is going to work.

It'll work just fine.

I own a Wii, I enjoy Wii Sports, and I only dig out the Wii at parties (with the very recent exception of Monster Hunter Tri.  That game makes me forget I'm playing on a Wii).  I also have a 360, and will upgrade to Kinect for the motion controls.  The only reason I don't have a PS3 is because I'm just not interested in most of the exclusive offerings on that console, and the other offerings are found on the 360.

Also, my 7 year old cannot own a tiger in real life, so having a tiger as a pet in Kinectimals is the only way he's going to.

Sometimes its ok to tell a kid "no". Kids don't need a virtual tiger, get them a real animal to play with. That's how we grew up.
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« Reply #156 on: June 16, 2010, 08:34:48 PM »

Quote from: spigot on June 16, 2010, 08:32:55 PM

How did the Forza demo dude brake and accelerate anyhow. I'm guessing it detected his slight foot movements too?

I think it did that part automatically.  Not sure there is an option to play with those controls and be able to control brakes and gas.  I think it's more of a thing where you can get people around who come over to just come in and give it a try.
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« Reply #157 on: June 16, 2010, 08:35:36 PM »

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 08:31:09 PM

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 16, 2010, 08:24:46 PM

Quote from: jblank
This just burns me up and like that writer with cracked.com (I think it was them) said, this really is the beginning of the end for the gaming industry and probably the point where I will look back one day and say "this started me losing interest in video games".

There's that DOOM!!!11!! outlook again.  Why does the existence of motion control have to be the 'beginning of the end' for the gaming industry?  Why does this mean companies will stop making games that use a 'normal' control scheme?  It doesn't.

If you don't like Kinect / Move / Wiimote, don't play them.

Where I think the real threat is, is where there is a hobby that 'core people' are comfortable with, then some event happens which brings casuals into it.  Music is a great example.  There are fans of a band which isn't really well known, or the music style doesn't appeal to many.  Once that band becomes known, more people start listening to them and the 'original' fans get pissed off at all the 'band-wagoners' and start calling the band itself a sell-out.  

Most people in groups like this hate it when their exclusive band / music / style / hobby becomes more inclusive to the general populace, which they then adopt a 'salted earth' policy and completely abandon it.  But what happens?  that band / music / style / hobby still goes on without them, and everyone else continues to enjoy.

The gaming industry will continue without you.  Find another hobby that not many others care about to attach yourself to.

Because when a company throws money at something huge like this (in their mind) they feel pressured to support it. That means more resources towards it and away from other things and quality will inevitably suffer, especially when vendors feel pressure to include motion stuff in games where it shouldn't be present.

Why should I find another hobby? I'm the type of gamer they should WANT to keep. I buy all new games (I have probably bought 75 games in the last year), I have all 3 system, etc, etc, etc. Why should I have to bounce out of the hobby? Let the casual gamer go, I am harder to attract and keep than they are.

You're making assumptions that are unfounded.  You think the Nintendo Power Glove was cheap?  How about Virtual Boy?  Yet Nintendo and gaming still exist after those failures.  There are other examples.

I say you should find another hobby because this one sounds like it's taking a turn you don't like, and instead of looking for ways to enjoy it, you're sounding the death knell to gaming and alluding to turning your back on it completely.
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« Reply #158 on: June 16, 2010, 08:36:35 PM »

Quote from: jblank on June 16, 2010, 08:34:01 PM

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 16, 2010, 08:30:19 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on June 16, 2010, 08:26:34 PM

I do agree that the motion controls and Wii Sports were the primary reason's for the success of the Wii.  But I think people who only enjoy Wii Sports, and only dig out the Wii at parties, are not going to be interested in upgrading to a 360 and Kinect just for more motion controls.  For the amount of gaming they do the Wii is good enough.  Microsoft seems to be trying to appeal to people who already have a Wii and I'm not sure how well that is going to work.

It'll work just fine.

I own a Wii, I enjoy Wii Sports, and I only dig out the Wii at parties (with the very recent exception of Monster Hunter Tri.  That game makes me forget I'm playing on a Wii).  I also have a 360, and will upgrade to Kinect for the motion controls.  The only reason I don't have a PS3 is because I'm just not interested in most of the exclusive offerings on that console, and the other offerings are found on the 360.

Also, my 7 year old cannot own a tiger in real life, so having a tiger as a pet in Kinectimals is the only way he's going to.

Sometimes its ok to tell a kid "no". Kids don't need a virtual tiger, get them a real animal to play with. That's how we grew up.

Now you're just being silly.  My kid has a real animal to play with.  And now he can have a virtual tiger.  I don't see how that is destroying gaming....
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« Reply #159 on: June 16, 2010, 08:37:49 PM »

I agree that a $150 Kinect is risky.  We haven't seen anything official about price, so it's really too early to call it on that.  I think MS is targeting people that either already have a 360 and want to get more people in the house using it, or guys/dads that want a 360 for themselves, but can't convince themselves if they'll be the only ones using it.

Pure speculation on my part.
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