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Author Topic: Xbox's lack of Blu-ray a 'problem' for developers  (Read 1444 times)
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Bullwinkle
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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2010, 09:54:34 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on August 03, 2010, 07:46:12 PM

Bah! Exclusive PS3-games usually don't require installs...

By no means complete:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Assassin’s Creed——–(Required) 1.3Gb
Alone in the Dark – Inferno (Required) 3.78GB
Burnout Paradise——–(Required) 0.4GB
Battlefield BC————(Required) 0.4GB
BioShock—————–(Required) 5.0 GB
Blazing Angels: Squadrons of WWII (unknown) 2.00 GB
Brothers in Arms: Hell’s Highway-(required) 2 GB
Civilization Revolution (Required) 0.65GB
Conflict: Denied Ops —-(unknown) 2.60 GB
Call of Duty 3 ————(unknown) 0.60 GB
Conan——————–(required) 0.67 GB
Devil May Cry 4——–(Required) 4.83 GB
Dark Sector ————(Required) 1.2 GB
*Eye of Judgement———(Required) 1.9GB
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars (required) 4.2 GB
Fallout 3——————-(required) 5.0 GB
Far Cry 2——————(required) 3.5 GB
Fight Night Round 4 ——-(required) 1.3 GB
Fear ———————–(Required) 2.5GB
Fracture —————–(required) 2 GB
GTA IV——————-(Required ) 3.3 GB
*GT5 Prologue———–(Required) 5.24GB
Ghostbusters ———–(Required) 4.0 GB
*Haze ——————–(Required) 3.82 GB
Hawx ———————(required ) 4GB
*Hot Shots Golf 5 – ——(Required) 3.61Gb
*Heavenly Sword——–(Required) 2.1GB
*Infamous —————-(required) 1.3 GB
*Little Big Planet———-(required) 0.6 GB
Legendary—————-(required) 4.5 GB
Lost Planet: Extreme Condition-(required) 4.9 GB
Lost: Via Domus ——–(required) 3.00 GB
Medal Of Honor:Airborne-(Required) 1.95 GB
Mercenaries 2: World in Flames (required) 2.7 GB
Mirror’s Edge —————–(required) 0.55 GB
MLB The Show 09 ————(required) 2.5 GB
Mortal Kombat VS DC——-(required) 1.1 GB
MLB 08 The Show——–(required) 2GB
*Metal Gear Solid 4——–(required) 4.0GB +(optional) 1.1GB for MG online
Nascar 09——————(required) 0.13GB
NBA 09 The Inside ——–(required) 2.8 GB
Need for Speed Undercover (Required) 1.0 GB
*Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm-(Required) 4.0 GB
Oblivion——————— (Required) 4.6GB
Orange Box —————-(Required) 0.6GB
Oblivion GOTY————–(Required) 5+GB
Overload Raising Hell—-(required) 3.33 GB
Prototype —————–(required) 0.65 GB
*Ratchet & Clank Future-(Required) 0.42GB
*Resistance: Fall of Man–(Required) 0.22GB
*Resistance 2—————(required) 0.4 GB
Rainbow Six Vegas 2——(required) 3.00GB
*Ridge Racer 7 ————-(Optional) 5GB
Saints Row 2 ————–(required) 3.8 GB
Spiderman 3—————(Required) 2.6Gb
Skate ———————– (required) 2.6 GB
Shaun White Snowboarding (Required) 1.0 GB
Splinter Cell Double Agent (unknown) 0.86 GB
Soul Calibur IV————-(required) 2.6GB
Spider-Man: Web of Shadows-(required) 2.0 GB
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed-(required) 2.7 GB
Street Fighter IV—————(required) 2.10 GB
*Socom Confrontation ——-(required) 2.7 GB
TNA Impact!—————-(requir ed) 4.75 GB
Top Spin 3——————(Required) 3.6 GB
Timeshift —————(required) 1.02 GB
Turning Point: Fall of Liberty (required) 2.52 GB
The Bourne Conspiracy—(required) 4.7 GB
Tom Clancy’s End War —-(required)5 GB
Vampire Rain: Altered Species (unknown) 3.8 GB
*Warhawk w/boosters-(Required) 1.1 GB
 Warhawk w/o boosters(Required) 1.25GB
WWE Smackdown! vs. Raw 2008 (required) 2.4 GB
WWE SmackDown vs. Raw 2009 (required) 3.2 GB

There are fifteen Exclusives on that list.  Also, that's an old list.  Here are others I found with next to no research:

*Heavy Rain --- (required) 4.2GB
*Modnation Racers --- (required) 3+GB
*Star Ocean --- (required) ~2GB
*Trinity Universe ---(required) size unknown

I'm not saying your 360 drive noise shouldn't be a problem for you (mine doesn't make a big sound, though).  I am saying that Blu Ray does come with it's own problems, and not just due to awkward porting.

However, I agree with Turtle that, assuming the next consoles come in the next three years, Blu Ray will be the choice because it's standard AND they will have been able to increase the drive speed.  I think the all-digital console may be a very real possibilty for next gen, though.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 09:57:35 PM by Bullwinkle » Logged

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TiLT
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2010, 10:13:49 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on August 03, 2010, 09:43:48 PM

the upcoming next gen consoles they'll be using bluray for the most part, but only because it's a tech that's now matured and available since there's no real competitor. However, it will be using a much more mature tech (higher drive speeds), and likely having something some additional tech to speed up the read times (extra lasers?). Then, memory will likely get a bump up to 1GB although I'm hoping for 2GB. That's going to be the biggest change for consoles that will allow more complex games to be made for them, hopefully opening up and bringing back some genres.

RAM has long been the consoles' biggest weakness. With the competitive pricing for consoles, even adding another 512 MB means they risk losing too much money on each console sold. However, I think we're finally starting to see the light at the end of that tunnel: SSD disks. I can easily imagine the next generation of consoles dropping harddrives altogether and replacing them with SSD disks, also taking advantage of their speed to do things that would normally have been assigned to RAM. There would still be a reasonable amount of RAM in the console, but probably not more than 1 GB or so, mostly used as a cache for the most demanding parts of games, such as textures. Yes, SSD disks are currently somewhat expensive, but by the time the next generation begins, their pricing will completely dominate the price of RAM, and regular HDs won't be an attractive option in the first place.

We'll probably still use Blu-Rays or similar tech in the next generation, but digital distribution will be a much more integrated part of the systems and will eventually phase out physical media towards the end of that generation. Installs will be required for pretty much all games (on all consoles) because the demands on data transfer will be much higher than today, and the benefits from using SSD storage for your game data are so immense.

Quote from: Teggy
In the future, all games will come on 1TB read-only disk drives that plug into the console. The return of the cartridge!

Not likely. Distributing software on CDs, DVDs or Blu-Rays is much cheaper than using a cartridge of any kind, and publishers will look to cut any corner they can. Michael Pachter actually received a question about the potential return of cartridges in his latest Pach-Attack on GameTrailers, and he said the same thing: Cartridges are not coming back, simply because they aren't economically viable.
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2010, 10:29:15 PM »

Maybe I'm crazy, but the load times on ME2 were shorter than those on the first game.  And in 50 hrs I think I swapped disks twice.  Not really seeing what the issue is...
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TiLT
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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2010, 10:38:51 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on August 03, 2010, 10:29:15 PM

Maybe I'm crazy, but the load times on ME2 were shorter than those on the first game.  And in 50 hrs I think I swapped disks twice.  Not really seeing what the issue is...

I'd guess the load times were shorter because there was more than one disc. More storage means less reason to compress data, which means faster loading. This is also an advantage Blu-Ray has. The 360 (at this point in the current generation) must use compressed data if it is to use only one disc, while the PS3 can work with raw data. Fast data transfer speeds from a DVD compared to a Blu-Ray doesn't help much if heavily compressed data must be extracted on the former before it can be used. This problem is only going to get more pronounced as data demands increase.
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Chaz
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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2010, 10:39:29 PM »

My PC uses DVDs, and I can't remember the last time I've had to swap a disc more than once.   icon_twisted

Something else that's likely making MS unhappy about going to BR is that then they're paying licensing fees to Sony constantly.  That's got to sting.  
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TiLT
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« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2010, 10:43:00 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on August 03, 2010, 10:39:29 PM

My PC uses DVDs, and I can't remember the last time I've had to swap a disc more than once.   icon_twisted

Of course, PCs have had forced installs for ages, and even games that come on one DVD often require HD space in excess of 10 GB. It says a lot about the amount of compression required.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2010, 10:53:21 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on August 03, 2010, 10:39:29 PM

Something else that's likely making MS unhappy about going to BR is that then they're paying licensing fees to Sony constantly.  That's got to sting. 

While Sony may be the big name, they'r enot the only player.  That's why I linked to the Blu-Ray Disc Association earlier.  While they may have been the main player in the wars, they are not sole arbiter of the format.  The list is long and varied.
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« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2010, 11:48:54 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on August 03, 2010, 10:38:51 PM

I'd guess the load times were shorter because there was more than one disc. More storage means less reason to compress data, which means faster loading. This is also an advantage Blu-Ray has. The 360 (at this point in the current generation) must use compressed data if it is to use only one disc, while the PS3 can work with raw data. Fast data transfer speeds from a DVD compared to a Blu-Ray doesn't help much if heavily compressed data must be extracted on the former before it can be used. This problem is only going to get more pronounced as data demands increase.

Loading basically amounts to a wash on both systems.  Decompression isn't that big of a deal - you can do it on the fly in a background thread as you're loading.  Sure it's nice not to have to, but it's not a huge win.  The biggest issue in load times is generally how much the laser has to track all over the place to read stuff in.  Access time kills you.

I don't think data demands are going to increase that much, for the simple reason that bandwidth and memory aren't increasing.  I have a fixed amount of memory and can fill it at pretty much a fixed speed.  People are going to have to be more creative about how they access and store data, but the amount of data they have to play with in memory isn't changing without a hardware change.  Because of that, I view increased disc storage as not really all that useful, unless I'm packing away massive rendered videos.  It'd be nice, but at least right now, there are tradeoffs. 
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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2010, 12:16:28 AM »

With the length of time the current systems will be around for still(I think several years yet), I think the next gen systems will go to all digital downloads. Being able to totally control content, and completely kill off the second hand market is too good of possibility for them to not go for IMO.
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« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2010, 12:39:15 AM »

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/report-debunks-disc-is-dead-claims
Quote
80 to 90 per cent of videogames bought in 2009 were on physical media, a new study has revealed.

although as the first poster comments on the EG site

Quote
Hardly surprising when, you know, the vast majority of console games are only released on disc.
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2010, 03:53:52 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 03, 2010, 10:53:21 PM

Quote from: Chaz on August 03, 2010, 10:39:29 PM

Something else that's likely making MS unhappy about going to BR is that then they're paying licensing fees to Sony constantly.  That's got to sting. 

While Sony may be the big name, they'r enot the only player.  That's why I linked to the Blu-Ray Disc Association earlier.  While they may have been the main player in the wars, they are not sole arbiter of the format.  The list is long and varied.

Yes, but Sony arguably has the most to win (or lose) by the success or failure of Blu-Ray.  They've pretty much bet the farm on it.
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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2010, 04:52:44 AM »

Ignorance is bliss - I don't own a PS3 and couldn't care less about some lengthy load times and disk swapping. I say that being someone who plays Fable II and Borderlands frequently and doesn't have either ripped to the HD. I'm not too bothered I have the time to pour and stir a cup of coffee occasionally on a load screen. As long as I can play for a clear 15-20 minutes it's all good for me. As to multiple disk spanning being a hassle for the developers, they could always choose to not develop for the 360, but I'm betting it's only the smallest minority that chooses that route.
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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2010, 08:23:23 PM »

What I wish would happen is for MS to let me install all of the discs' content on my HDD, and play the entire game with Disc 1 in the tray.
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hmm...


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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2010, 09:50:41 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on August 04, 2010, 08:23:23 PM

What I wish would happen is for MS to let me install all of the discs' content on my HDD, and play the entire game with Disc 1 in the tray.

All that except for the disc requirement.  Let me load up the hard drive and skip the disc DRM hassle.  I love being able to click on any Steam game I've purchased without having to try and find where I put the disc.
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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2010, 09:59:21 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on August 04, 2010, 09:50:41 PM

Quote from: rickfc on August 04, 2010, 08:23:23 PM

What I wish would happen is for MS to let me install all of the discs' content on my HDD, and play the entire game with Disc 1 in the tray.

All that except for the disc requirement.  Let me load up the hard drive and skip the disc DRM hassle.  I love being able to click on any Steam game I've purchased without having to try and find where I put the disc.

Yeah, except how would that keep you from sharing the game with your 'closest' 100 friends?  If they would do away at least with the disc swapping, I'd be fine...
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hmm...


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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2010, 10:48:00 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on August 04, 2010, 09:59:21 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on August 04, 2010, 09:50:41 PM

Quote from: rickfc on August 04, 2010, 08:23:23 PM

What I wish would happen is for MS to let me install all of the discs' content on my HDD, and play the entire game with Disc 1 in the tray.

All that except for the disc requirement.  Let me load up the hard drive and skip the disc DRM hassle.  I love being able to click on any Steam game I've purchased without having to try and find where I put the disc.

Yeah, except how would that keep you from sharing the game with your 'closest' 100 friends?  If they would do away at least with the disc swapping, I'd be fine...

I know a lot of people hate the idea but I'm fine with them dialing into the servers to verify.  Let me just be logged into XBL to play discless, and let me go back to using disc 1 if I want to play without an internet connection.  I guess then you run the problem of having two people playing one game copy, but man, at some point the piracy paranoia has to stop.
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« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2010, 10:55:49 PM »

Not a bad idea rickfc. I would love if they did that, but the argument could be said of multi disc sharing of the other discs. It wouldn't pay off long term with ME2 due to the final missions being on the 1st disc, but it might allow you to share them from other multi disc games.
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