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Author Topic: XB360 BC - What's Up?  (Read 4987 times)
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Sarkus
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« on: January 21, 2006, 07:42:58 AM »

I just read an article that suggests that MS is already losing interest in supporting backwards compatibility.  What I don't get is why it would not make a ton of sense for every new XBox game being BC?  MS makes money either way and they really need some titles to fill in the release gaps.
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2006, 08:29:50 AM »

Think it was Game Informer that had the "Top 10 Disappointments of 2005" and one of the top ones was it's claiming that Microsoft abandoned the original Xbox and would no longer support it, including no more first party titles, ever.

To me it looks like Microsoft really just want to put the Xbox behind them and not look back.
The three top games I wanted backwards compatiblity with (one of them being a top seller) were Counter-Strike, Unreal Championship 2, and Starwars Battlefront 2. Such a shame that if I want to play those games I need an original Xbox taking up more space on my already crowded desk.

Do you have a link for the article you read? I see Microsoft turning a cold shoulder to the Xbox, but on backwards compatiblity for the 360 as well?
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2006, 08:50:44 AM »

I've gotten over it.  I was pissed at first, but now I realize it really isnt that big of a deal at all.
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TheMissingLink
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2006, 09:42:13 AM »

A) I'm sure plenty of people sold their Xbox's as credit towards the 360.  In fact, I know a few people who sold more than that and with Microsoft not wanting to do any more BC, they're pretty much screwed out of this-gen stuff.  On a forum somebody noted that it felt like they pretty much owned a GameCube, which I found quite humerous.

B) Microsoft is losing money with the multiplatform stuff.  People who don't own an Xbox, but may own a PS2 along with their 360 are going to purchase the PS2 version.

C) I enjoy not having a PSX hooked up next to my PS2.  Maybe MS just wants to clutter your gaming set-up, I dunno.
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Sarkus
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2006, 09:58:27 AM »

Voodoo Extreme linked the news off a site called ActiveXBox that claims they confirmed there will be no more BC updates until at least March.

I just don't get why they wouldn't BC huge hits like Battlefront II or the upcoming Black.  If it's all about making more money on unannounced 360 ports of those titles that's gonna really suck.
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2006, 10:00:03 AM »

Realize that in the age of 'modern journalism' most places don't fact check or pick up the phone for a quote.  This could be (and I don't doubt that it is) complete bunk.
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2006, 10:17:15 AM »

Unless the backwards compatability programming costs are really high, I figured that it would be cost effective to program backwards compatability.

I mean, game sales are game sales aren't they?  Any game sold is extra profit now, even Xbox 1 games.
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2006, 10:39:44 AM »

Yep.  They'll talk people OUT of a sale if it isn't backwards compatable.  It is in their best interests to do so.
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2006, 11:36:47 AM »

Quote from: "Sarkus"
I just don't get why they wouldn't BC huge hits like Battlefront II or the upcoming Black.  If it's all about making more money on unannounced 360 ports of those titles that's gonna really suck.


Yeah, there were rumors before the 360 came out that all Xbox 1 games were required to be BC in order to pass cert.  That obviously wasn't the case.

Personally I'm betting that they are finding it more trouble than its worth.  Many games have really crap performance in BC mode so its certainly possible that quite a few of the games we are interested in just flat out won't work acceptably.  

Damn shame too- I'm one of those people who BC is a huge deal for.  Hell, despite owning a 360, I've probably spent the majority of my gaming time in recent weeks with PS1 games.
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2006, 01:10:18 PM »

And there's another thing, developers do have an incentive to try and make their Xbox 1 games backwards compatable, or easily made BC.

Perhaps this announcement isn't so much them putting BC on hold, but a restructuring of the whole BC program to more quickly get newer games BC, or to work on some sort of kit to allow developers to make their own games backwards compatable?

I mean, no updates until at least march, that's about two months away, long enough for some serious development work on some sort of system for BC work.
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Hetz
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2006, 01:25:21 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Realize that in the age of 'modern journalism' most places don't fact check or pick up the phone for a quote.  This could be (and I don't doubt that it is) complete bunk.


Actually, on the Major Nelson podcast (who is a employee of MS and a member of the Xbox Live Team) a couple of weeks ago he interviewed the head of the MS Backwords compatability team and he said basicly the same thing that was in that story.

No BC update until March, because the team was on vacation for pretty much all of January, then it would take some time to get the emulator to work on some of these other games.

It's show #154 and is really very imformative about the whole BC process.

http://www.majornelson.com/
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2006, 02:35:22 PM »

Quote from: "Hetz"

Actually, on the Major Nelson podcast (who is a employee of MS and a member of the Xbox Live Team) a couple of weeks ago he interviewed the head of the MS Backwords compatability team and he said basicly the same thing that was in that story.

No BC update until March, because the team was on vacation for pretty much all of January, then it would take some time to get the emulator to work on some of these other games.

It's show #154 and is really very imformative about the whole BC process.

http://www.majornelson.com/


I was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it, Hetz.  The other thing I learned from that podcast was how they choose games (or sometimes not choose them).  People got all up in arms that Barbie Horse  Adventure was BC.  He said they basically had to do nothing to get it to work.  Other games, though, they have to do a lot of coding.  So, if a game just works or works with little effort, obviously that game will be easy to add to the list.
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WinoMcCougarstein
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2006, 04:40:11 PM »

I dont get why people traded in their xboxes and are bitching about BC.  Did they not look at the list before purchasing a 360?  They should have known BC was limited.  I knew it was, so I didnt trade in my xbox.  Sure, having two consoles hooked up kind of sucks, but it it isnt the end of the world.  The people that traded in their original Xbox should have done about 2 minutes of research beforehand.
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DarkEL
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2006, 05:21:45 PM »

Quote from: "Hetz"
No BC update until March, because the team was on vacation for pretty much all of January, then it would take some time to get the emulator to work on some of these other games.

It's show #154 and is really very imformative about the whole BC process.


Hmm - I just listened to that and I'm sorry but I didn't hear anything like the "whole team took January off" and "no BC updates till March".

What I heard David (BC manager) say was that there wouldn't be another update in december as they had a bunch of team members taking vacation for the holidays ( so we're talking christmas / new years ).

Then a few minutes later major nelson said that people were excited about the clancy games in the december update as they were afraid that they would have to wait until March.

So it just seems like too much of stretch for me to interpret it that way.
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Sarkus
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2006, 07:19:48 PM »

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I dont get why people traded in their xboxes and are bitching about BC.  Did they not look at the list before purchasing a 360?  They should have known BC was limited.  I knew it was, so I didnt trade in my xbox.  Sure, having two consoles hooked up kind of sucks, but it it isnt the end of the world.  The people that traded in their original Xbox should have done about 2 minutes of research beforehand.


Considering they didn't release an actual list of BC games until right before the 360's launch, it was hard to make any kind of judgement.  Even then, they stated they would make the most popular titles BC and that hasn't been the case - SW Battlefront 2 was one of the top ten games of 2005 and that's not BC.  At the same time, reputable sources (IGN, etc) suggested BC on new releases would be widespread.

I'm willing to accept the limitations of going back to older titles and making them BC, but the lack of support for major XB titles as they are released is what bothers me most.  And it makes a ton of business sense for MS to support new releases to promote the purchase of 360's.
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2006, 08:24:19 PM »

It was under my impression that MS had at first said they intended on making the whole Xbox catalog BC, eventually anyway.

Anyway, it just seems silly to me they won't make everything BC.  I think I sort of take it as a given (the PS2 has spoiled me) and to be honest, the idea of a next-gen console without full BC is pretty silly.
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Zinfan
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2006, 01:01:37 AM »

360 BC psssssh!  I perfer

One MELLLLLIIOONNNNN B.C.

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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2006, 02:16:59 AM »

I'm waiting for them to make the X-Box version of Gun BC with the 360  :wink:
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2006, 02:38:24 AM »

Quote from: "Zinfan"
360 BC psssssh!  I perfer

One MELLLLLIIOONNNNN B.C.



 Lol. That`s all I got to say.
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2006, 06:07:38 PM »

Quote
I'm waiting for them to make the X-Box version of Gun BC with the 360 Wink


And for me, this was LOL.

Quote
I've gotten over it. I was pissed at first, but now I realize it really isnt that big of a deal at all.


To you.  Let me just add that, to some of us BC is a big issue.  One of the reasons I was able to convince my wife to allow it into the media center was the understanding that eventually, the Xbox would go away.  She frowns at it all the time.  

I'm not yet worried about no BC updates until March.  If that's the case, I'm hoping they're looking to release a big update at that time.  I will say, though, that it goes against the promise of continual updates.

All this is essentially moot, though, as there appears to be no plan to make save games movable.   To me, this is the most infuriating thing.  I'm not starting over on games that I've plugged many hours into, but I'm not playing them on Xbox because I know they'd look better on the 360.  Additionally, I'm not buying new games for the Xbox in case they get released for the 360 or become compatible because I just don't want to start over.  Essentially, they're losing sales and are alienating me as an Xbox loyalist because they've essentially made BC for people who did NOT own an Xbox.
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2006, 08:23:29 PM »

I too, do not really understand the logic behind this poor support for BC. It seems like such a natural, uncomplicated thing to do. Support BC so 360 adopters will not have to keep their original box and wont miss out on cool games nor will MS lose out on the sale of those games (right now i'm primarily thinking about a game like Black).
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2006, 07:17:28 AM »

Quote
I dont get why people traded in their xboxes and are bitching about BC.


That's easy, most of us simply can't afford to have every console out there. When the playstation 3 comes out, I'll be trading in my ps2 to help get some extra $$ to get it. At least the ps3 has promised full backwards compatiblity with both the ps2 and ps1.

As already mentioned, the lack of space is another issue. The xbox is huge as it is (at least compared to the slim ps2) - if you have that, a 360, a gamecube, and a playstation 2 you're getting extremely crowded. There's no reason to hang on to your gamecube when the revolution comes out (just an example) because it'll play all your gamecube games. Microsoft is the ONLY next generation console that doesn't know how tod o backwards compatiblity the right way.
I looked at the list and was confident they'd add a game like Battlefront 2 (which has sold about half a million copies on the xbox alone so far) real soon, but nothing has changed so far. Their announcement of "best selling games" would be backwards compatible sounded like games such as the original battlefront, which was a best seller as well.
What about all the new xbox games coming out that you may want to try out still? That's what pisses me off most. I always had a hard time buying original xbox games at 50 bucks each knowing in the back of my mind they not work come the next generation.
The playstation 2 on the other hand, if it was a worthy game, I had no problem putting down 50 bucks because I know it'll still be good when the next generation hits.
So having to choose between a multiplatform title, it's safer to go with the ps2 (or even gamecube) version because both next gen consoles will still play them.

I really hope that the next xbox will learn from it's mistakes and do BC the right way as if you look at all the money you've spent on games, it's a real stab in the back if you aren't able to play them when the next system launches.
Even though the xbox games look nicer, I still find myself getting the ps2 versions of multiplatform games simply because I know they're truly "future proof", unlike the Xbox which you never know if microsoft will implent BC with it or not.

Btw this isn't a "pro sony" post or anything as I just recently got the 360 but I'm finding it really frustrating that the couple of xbox games I held on to (I simply coudn't afford to buy an xbox 360 and a game at the same time, bought the 360 at target for 400 bucks and traded in my origianl xbox for dead or alive 4 at gamestop) won't play on the 360. I feel pretty ripped off and that 400 dollar hole in my wallet could have been a car payment.. (which I'm late on now because I didn't put my priorities first  :wink:)
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2006, 04:09:43 PM »

If you "recently bought" the 360 then the BC list was easily available, so you knew exactly which titles were BC and which weren't. If you chose to hang on to XBox games that weren't on the BC list there wouldn't be any reason to be surprised that you can't play them on the 360.

I don't get how you were "ripped off" then.  What did MS promise you that they didn't deliver?  Even the earliest reports indicated that MS would make "best selling titles" BC making it a hit-and-miss type of thing.

In the meantime, don't buy $60 360 games - get on Arcade.  There are some great, addictive games there.
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2006, 04:21:05 PM »

Backwards compatability is actually pretty complicated for them to do.  Remember that there is almost nothing the same between Xbox 1 and the 360.  The single PC processor has turned into an IBM made cell processor, heck, even the video chip brand has changed.

When they make a game BC, they have to write code that'll translate every hardware request that the software makes into something useable by the new system, and to make sure that the speed remains constant, they have to do it in low level code.  That means sometimes looking and plugging away at binary or assembly code.
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2006, 04:21:09 PM »

The BC list is pretty thorough, at least for the games I already owned.  About 15 of my Xbox games work (out of nearly 30), which is pretty good all things considered.
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2006, 08:24:54 PM »

I just wish they would make all the Live games BC. I think the 360 has really fractured their supposed and vaunted "community," and that could help repair it.
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2006, 08:41:22 PM »

Personally, I like the fact that 100% of my PSX games work on my PS2.
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2006, 09:08:11 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Personally, I like the fact that 100% of my PSX games work on my PS2.


Actually that is false, certain PSX games in fact do not work on the PS2.  Of course, it is something like 5 games.  But hey, 100% of my Xbox games work on my Xbox.   :lol:
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2006, 09:10:33 PM »

Keyword: my
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2006, 09:27:49 PM »

100% of your PSX games wouldn't play on 75% of my buddies PS2s... given that he's had 3 die on him. slywink

On another interesting note:  Did you know that 87.6% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2006, 09:46:43 PM »

aoghioejriomjlerjoj3!
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2006, 09:52:48 PM »

I think we should all step back and consider what TheMissingLink just said, as truer words have never been spoken.

Aoghioejriomjlerjoj3 indeed, my friend. Aoghioejriomjlerjoj3 indeed.

On a different note, it sucks big donkey balls that I can't play Psychonauts, Beyond Good & Evil, or Phantom Dust on my X360.
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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2006, 11:00:29 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Keyword: my


So 100% of your games work on your PS2, but some still dont work on the PS2.  So how is this any different than me not having a problem that some Xbox games dont work on the Xbox360.  It is all a personal opinion and if that is a determining fact in not getting a 360, thats just fine by me.  I'm currently enjoying the hell out of mine and this minor fact doesnt bother me.

Why dont we just file this whole thing right next to the HD-DVD Blu-Ray argument under rehashed to the point of extinction.
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2006, 11:26:54 PM »

They're in a tighter spot than people realize.  They're two completely different systems with virtually nothing in common between them.  It's not like getting your PC games to play on a Mac.  It's like getting your PC games to play on your microwave oven.  The fact that they even devoted a division to pursue it at all blows my mind, it's such a nasty problem.  The difference in video chips between ATI and Nvidia alone is almost insurmountable.  Shaders get compiled for specific hardware devices, and people not might realize that the graphics companies actually own patents on how certain things work in the code - so getting stuff to work on both chips is not only a crazy hard technical challenge, but a legal/business one too.  I know several games did very specific rendering code for the Nvidia chip.

I think the bottom line for them is that they realize it's an important feature to add value to the machine, but one would be very hard-pressed to argue that it would help them sell more units at this point smile
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2006, 11:32:03 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
aoghioejriomjlerjoj3!


ultimate faith.
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2006, 11:39:37 PM »

Quote from: "stiffler"
Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
aoghioejriomjlerjoj3!


ultimate faith.


Rise up with fists!
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2006, 03:08:32 AM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Quote from: "stiffler"
Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
aoghioejriomjlerjoj3!


ultimate faith.


Rise up with fists!


I have no idea what you are talking about but +1
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2006, 03:29:51 AM »

(
Quote from: "Calvin"
Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Quote from: "stiffler"
Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
aoghioejriomjlerjoj3!


ultimate faith.


Rise up with fists!


I have no idea what you are talking about but +1
)^³
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2006, 04:16:43 AM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
(
Quote from: "Calvin"
Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Quote from: "stiffler"
Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
aoghioejriomjlerjoj3!


ultimate faith.


Rise up with fists!


I have no idea what you are talking about but +1
)^³


I'll raise you +
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2006, 04:42:09 AM »

What I would pay to be that pussy...
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