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« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2011, 09:43:38 PM »

Quote from: Devil on June 08, 2011, 09:38:07 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 07:41:26 PM

Quote from: Raintitan on June 08, 2011, 07:37:25 PM

An interesting feature for the iOS 5 platform that has many similarities (the iPad2 can drive 1080p gaming).   

http://toucharcade.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/airplay_blog.jpg

The intent is not to get off topic from Wii U (pricing, controls, etc) but to point out that the idea and direction has some commonality with the Apple platforms. Very similar in some ways.



Oh, that controller is definitely a reaction to iOS. In fact, I was expecting Apple to unveil their game strategy using a combination of iPad/iPhone and AppleTV before anyone else. Nintendo beat them to the punch. Totally didn't expect that.

Looks like Real Racing 2 will have the iPad + Apple TV thing once OS5 comes out. So it's in the works.

I'd expect the Wii U to come in a little less than $600 though.

Certainly, but for those of us that already have both it's the cost of an app.

Not to mention that there will likely be games that use iphone/ipod touch as well.
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« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2011, 09:49:59 PM »

Quote from: EddieA on June 08, 2011, 09:43:09 PM

Also, I don't see how Nintendo is going to avoid the Wii U suffering the same fate as the Wii.  Why would "hardcore gamers" buy this when they can already play all the games in that demo reel on systems they already own with controllers that aren't bigger than their heads slywink  When the new XBox and PS come out in a couple of years, developers will again be faced with the decision to port the games to a much less powerful system or not port them at all.

I pretty much think that this system is designed for bridging the gap between casual wii-style games and 'hardcore' games. Bringing the new gamers created by the Wii into a new tier of customer, and eliminating more differences on the architecture and asset side for pubs and devs so that they can minimize production costs.

Realize that most people don't own multiple platforms. Also realize that Microsoft is going whole hog in the direction the Kinect is taking them, which is where Nintendo is coming from.
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« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2011, 09:54:02 PM »

Quote from: EddieA on June 08, 2011, 09:43:09 PM



Also, I don't see how Nintendo is going to avoid the Wii U suffering the same fate as the Wii.  Why would "hardcore gamers" buy this when they can already play all the games in that demo reel on systems they already own with controllers that aren't bigger than their heads slywink  When the new XBox and PS come out in a couple of years, developers will again be faced with the decision to port the games to a much less powerful system or not port them at all.

These are real concerns for me too. That controller looks way too uncomfortable for long play sessions, especially if you could chose between playing the same game with a Dual Shock 3 or 360 controller.

Also, even if the system is slightly more powerful than the PS3, it is still going to be under powered when the PS4 and next Xbox are released in 2 or 3 years. Putting it right where the Wii currently is.
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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2011, 10:03:03 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on June 08, 2011, 09:38:11 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 09:32:00 PM

Quote from: metallicorphan on June 08, 2011, 09:30:37 PM


Shocking.

No, really.

Snark aside, does this really surprise anyone?  Do they care? 

I'll just keep my Wii. It's not like I have anything else that needs the component hookups it uses.  The PS3 might be out of luck for it's HDMI connection though....
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« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2011, 10:06:29 PM »

I'm sure there will be used, refurb, and extra Wiis available on the aftermarket forever, given how many they've sold.  It's not like you all of a sudden won't be able to acquire one to play those GameCube games if you're so inclined.
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« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM »

Quote from: Scraper on June 08, 2011, 09:54:02 PM

Also, even if the system is slightly more powerful than the PS3, it is still going to be under powered when the PS4 and next Xbox are released in 2 or 3 years. Putting it right where the Wii currently is.

There's only 2 ways they could avoid that:

1. Wait 2 or 3 years. Not exactly smart. By all indications they'll have a HD system debuting at a time when HD is more standard than SD, just as the Wii came out when SD was more standard than HD. I think they've already proven that cutting edge graphics and tech doesn't trump all.
2. Pull a Sony and make a console that prices them out of the market for the first few years of life. Take a loss instead of a profit.

As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices. The fact that it's going to run 1080p is going to be great, and suggests a more than adequate amount of power.
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« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2011, 10:24:21 PM »

Quote from: Devil on June 08, 2011, 09:38:07 PM

I'd expect the Wii U to come in a little less than $600 though.

I hadn't even thought about the price of the system.  Anything over $300 ($350 at the absolute most) and they can forget about casual users.  Unlike Sony and MS, Nintendo doesn't like losing money on consoles, so it will be very interesting to see how they price the Wii U.  The more I think about it, the more it seems like Nintendo could lightning in a bottle with the Wii.  Between the burgeoning casual market, the low price, and the fact that anyone from small children to their great-grandparents could understand and have fun with Wii Sports, Nintendo hit on a magic formula.  You take any of these away, and I think the Wii would have been a distant third this generation.
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« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2011, 10:26:15 PM »

Quote
There's only 2 ways they could avoid that:

I agree, they are a victim of bad timing. There is probably more value in delivering a device that can be developed in a cross platform way to get PS3/360 titles than trying to establish itself as the next generation console. They can supplement that with core Nintendo franchises which will probably have game play that cannot be reproduced on another platform with the tablet, etc.



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« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2011, 11:08:29 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on June 08, 2011, 09:09:09 PM

The graphics on this thing have to be at least equal to the PS3, if it's on par with 360 stuff I'm out cause that tech started looking shitty to me over a year ago.

I think you're the only one here who thinks that way.
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« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices. The fact that it's going to run 1080p is going to be great, and suggests a more than adequate amount of power.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true. Just look at the demo Epic showed of what they can do with the latest PC tech with the Unreal engine. Thats a major step up in fidelity and what the next xbox/PS could do and would make the WiiU look like the curretn Wii does.
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« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2011, 12:18:24 AM »

Quote from: Scraper on June 08, 2011, 09:54:02 PM

Quote from: EddieA on June 08, 2011, 09:43:09 PM



Also, I don't see how Nintendo is going to avoid the Wii U suffering the same fate as the Wii.  Why would "hardcore gamers" buy this when they can already play all the games in that demo reel on systems they already own with controllers that aren't bigger than their heads slywink  When the new XBox and PS come out in a couple of years, developers will again be faced with the decision to port the games to a much less powerful system or not port them at all.

These are real concerns for me too. That controller looks way too uncomfortable for long play sessions, especially if you could chose between playing the same game with a Dual Shock 3 or 360 controller.

Also, even if the system is slightly more powerful than the PS3, it is still going to be under powered when the PS4 and next Xbox are released in 2 or 3 years. Putting it right where the Wii currently is.

2 or 3 years does not put it where the Wii is now.  That's a dramatic, significant advantage.  Both Wii and PS3 launched only 1 year after the 360, and it made a pretty big difference (at least in Sony's case as I said before, I'm sure that Nintendo would have been decimated if they're gamble didn't pay off hugely).  The PS2 launched a year and a half before the Xbox and Gamecube, and we know how that turned out.

Granted, it'll make a huge difference if Wii U really outshines the competition, but even if it's just a little better, the "new" factor added to the fact that ordinary folks are already comfortable with the Wii brand will have a huge retail impact.
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« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2011, 12:22:17 AM »

Quote from: Jumangi on June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices. The fact that it's going to run 1080p is going to be great, and suggests a more than adequate amount of power.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true. Just look at the demo Epic showed of what they can do with the latest PC tech with the Unreal engine. Thats a major step up in fidelity and what the next xbox/PS could do and would make the WiiU look like the curretn Wii does.

I don't think you understood what I said
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« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2011, 01:25:51 AM »

Im interested but wouldnt be a first adaptor.

I still prefer pc stuff to console but enjoy my wii and ps2 and handhelds (ds,psp) when I want something different. I do like that I could go from tv to the upad thing since wife or kiddos always hog the main tv. I might just end up going pc and handheld only though, but might have to see how much more the wiiu is vs psp vita or 3ds. Using the upad as an ipadish web/netflix thing would be nice too as currently just use phone or lappy if not on main pc.

Need to really work on my backlog before getting something new though, but it would play my wii games smile
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« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2011, 02:15:04 AM »

Hideo talks about possible MGS for Wii U

from the PSN thread *ahem*(thx Engine)
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« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2011, 12:29:36 PM »

GamesRadar has a nice, schizophrenic article about the console on its site.

It goes back and forth about good and bad, but seems to steer towards good by the end.  However, he's estimating no PS4 or Xbox 720 for four or five years, and I think that might be a bit short-sighted.
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« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2011, 01:28:36 PM »

Another thing I wasn't clear on was internal storage and something that could be a large performance increase for some games could be a small SSD drive internally since it would alleviate the data read rate from the disc. Did Nintendo clarify how non-disc storage worked?
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« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2011, 01:42:32 PM »

all i heard about internal storage was it had 8gig flash


i just saw this on Kotaku,gives you an idea about the size of the Wii U pad,if interested in that kind of thing

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« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2011, 01:54:02 PM »

However, Nintendo IS allowing you to hook up an external HD to the Wii U, which is new. They recognize that people want an extra HD, but Nintendo doesn't want to have to support it themselves.

I really like the Wii U. (Big surprise, right?) I do wonder, though, how it's going to work for multiplayer. I know that yes, some people can use Wii-Motes, but isn't that going to cause troubles in families where, say, one kid wants the big controller and another kid has it?

It doesn't bother me much because I usually play single-player. Multiplayer bothers me for some odd reason.
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« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2011, 02:16:25 PM »

Quote from: Eel Snave on June 09, 2011, 01:54:02 PM

However, Nintendo IS allowing you to hook up an external HD to the Wii U, which is new. They recognize that people want an extra HD, but Nintendo doesn't want to have to support it themselves.

This is good news and I really wish Microsoft had done that other than milking customers for their ridiculously overpriced HD's. I'm not surprised Big N went with this option, as it's the choice they made with SD storage cards too.

Quote
I do wonder, though, how it's going to work for multiplayer. I know that yes, some people can use Wii-Motes, but isn't that going to cause troubles in families where, say, one kid wants the big controller and another kid has it?

This concerns me a lot too. I can't see how it won't be a disaster for families with younger children - heck even teens. That the U will only support one table controler is the biggest surprise for me and a very bad decision IMO.
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« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2011, 02:26:36 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 09, 2011, 12:29:36 PM

GamesRadar has a nice, schizophrenic article about the console on its site.

It goes back and forth about good and bad, but seems to steer towards good by the end.  However, he's estimating no PS4 or Xbox 720 for four or five years, and I think that might be a bit short-sighted.

We might get a hint of a console to come at next year's E3 from Sony and Microsoft, but honestly I doubt it. So two years from now we'll hear about the PS4/Xbox 720, but it still won't launch for another 3 years from now.

That gives Nintendo plenty of time to get support onto their console.
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« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2011, 02:56:10 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on June 09, 2011, 02:26:36 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 09, 2011, 12:29:36 PM

GamesRadar has a nice, schizophrenic article about the console on its site.

It goes back and forth about good and bad, but seems to steer towards good by the end.  However, he's estimating no PS4 or Xbox 720 for four or five years, and I think that might be a bit short-sighted.

We might get a hint of a console to come at next year's E3 from Sony and Microsoft, but honestly I doubt it. So two years from now we'll hear about the PS4/Xbox 720, but it still won't launch for another 3 years from now.

That gives Nintendo plenty of time to get support onto their console.

Yeah, but that last line is what's going to push up the timeframe for Sony and MS.  Without the U, I wouldn't have argued with another 4 or 5 years.  I don't think that's going to happen now.

Quote from: Eel Snave on June 09, 2011, 01:54:02 PM


However, Nintendo IS allowing you to hook up an external HD to the Wii U, which is new. They recognize that people want an extra HD, but Nintendo doesn't want to have to support it themselves.


I just hope they support it correctly and allow you to actually use it for game, save, and add-on storage.  In the past, there's always been a hurdle getting Nintendo to use extra storage for anything other than photos.

They seem to be getting it (the Wii now lets you play games from the SD card, the 3DS lets you play 3DSWare from the SD card [but not DSiWare...Grrr]), but I'm not convinced they've embraced it fully (see the Grrr above).
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« Reply #61 on: June 09, 2011, 03:47:46 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 12:22:17 AM

Quote from: Jumangi on June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices. The fact that it's going to run 1080p is going to be great, and suggests a more than adequate amount of power.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true. Just look at the demo Epic showed of what they can do with the latest PC tech with the Unreal engine. Thats a major step up in fidelity and what the next xbox/PS could do and would make the WiiU look like the curretn Wii does.

I don't think you understood what I said

I do, and I still think you are wrong. Look at a game like Dead Rising 2. There are so many actors on screen at once, they've got to cut them back resource-wise to near PS2 levels.  With more hardware, we could throw that many actors up and have them all look as good as Ezio or whatever.   

Speaking of Ezio... look carefully at Assassin's Creed II.  Ezio is highly detailed, but the generic NPCs are not. Current hardware doesn't have enough umphf to make everyone look as good as Ezio.

Also.. lighting.  We're still faking it on the current hardware most of the time.

We may well reach a point where the leap up to the "next level" won't be worthwhile from a "cost of content creation" standpoint, but I don't think we are there yet.
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« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2011, 03:53:11 PM »

Quote from: kronovan on June 09, 2011, 02:16:25 PM

This concerns me a lot too. I can't see how it won't be a disaster for families with younger children - heck even teens. That the U will only support one table controler is the biggest surprise for me and a very bad decision IMO.

The Wii U promotes sharing!
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« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2011, 04:24:33 PM »

Quote from: Bob on June 09, 2011, 03:47:46 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 12:22:17 AM

Quote from: Jumangi on June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices. The fact that it's going to run 1080p is going to be great, and suggests a more than adequate amount of power.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true. Just look at the demo Epic showed of what they can do with the latest PC tech with the Unreal engine. Thats a major step up in fidelity and what the next xbox/PS could do and would make the WiiU look like the curretn Wii does.

I don't think you understood what I said

I do, and I still think you are wrong. Look at a game like Dead Rising 2. There are so many actors on screen at once, they've got to cut them back resource-wise to near PS2 levels.  With more hardware, we could throw that many actors up and have them all look as good as Ezio or whatever.  

Speaking of Ezio... look carefully at Assassin's Creed II.  Ezio is highly detailed, but the generic NPCs are not. Current hardware doesn't have enough umphf to make everyone look as good as Ezio.

Also.. lighting.  We're still faking it on the current hardware most of the time.

We may well reach a point where the leap up to the "next level" won't be worthwhile from a "cost of content creation" standpoint, but I don't think we are there yet.

You didn't.  Th' Fool's point (assuming I got the basic swing of it) isn't that there's nowhere left to go in improving graphics, it's that we're getting to diminishing returns on doing so.

Yes, more powerful hardware could make all the NPCs look incredibly detailed, but someone has to put all that detail in.  The amount of time and money spent doing that is becoming cost prohibitive.

While I think he's right currently, I still think we should head down the improved graphics road, as a way to do it faster and cheaper will be found.  It always is.
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« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2011, 04:25:06 PM »

Quote from: kronovan on June 09, 2011, 02:16:25 PM



This concerns me a lot too. I can't see how it won't be a disaster for families with younger children - heck even teens. That the U will only support one table controler is the biggest surprise for me and a very bad decision IMO.

The point of the touchscreen controller isn't to have the same experience as the other players of the game.  For instance, on that alien game that Ubisoft announced, the touchpad controller is used to spawn enemies.  It's like worrying that the fact that there is a DM in D&D will cause issues as people fight over that role.  It's a separate experience and there will be only one person at a time who can do it.  Kids will just have to deal with that.  Maybe it will make them better people when they grow up.
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« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2011, 04:47:21 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 09, 2011, 04:24:33 PM

Quote from: Bob on June 09, 2011, 03:47:46 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 12:22:17 AM

Quote from: Jumangi on June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices. The fact that it's going to run 1080p is going to be great, and suggests a more than adequate amount of power.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true. Just look at the demo Epic showed of what they can do with the latest PC tech with the Unreal engine. Thats a major step up in fidelity and what the next xbox/PS could do and would make the WiiU look like the curretn Wii does.

I don't think you understood what I said

I do, and I still think you are wrong. Look at a game like Dead Rising 2. There are so many actors on screen at once, they've got to cut them back resource-wise to near PS2 levels.  With more hardware, we could throw that many actors up and have them all look as good as Ezio or whatever.  

Speaking of Ezio... look carefully at Assassin's Creed II.  Ezio is highly detailed, but the generic NPCs are not. Current hardware doesn't have enough umphf to make everyone look as good as Ezio.

Also.. lighting.  We're still faking it on the current hardware most of the time.

We may well reach a point where the leap up to the "next level" won't be worthwhile from a "cost of content creation" standpoint, but I don't think we are there yet.

You didn't.  Th' Fool's point (assuming I got the basic swing of it) isn't that there's nowhere left to go in improving graphics, it's that we're getting to diminishing returns on doing so.

Yes, more powerful hardware could make all the NPCs look incredibly detailed, but someone has to put all that detail in.  The amount of time and money spent doing that is becoming cost prohibitive.

While I think he's right currently, I still think we should head down the improved graphics road, as a way to do it faster and cheaper will be found.  It always is.

That was actually one of the real points of the Wii, as well. They were trying to lessen the cost of game development by saying, "OK, you CAN'T pack that much detail into the system. You have to focus on the gameplay if you want to make a game for the system. Be creative." It backfired in a big way for everyone but Nintendo.
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« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2011, 04:50:15 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 09, 2011, 04:25:06 PM

Quote from: kronovan on June 09, 2011, 02:16:25 PM


This concerns me a lot too. I can't see how it won't be a disaster for families with younger children - heck even teens. That the U will only support one tablet controler is the biggest surprise for me and a very bad decision IMO.

It's like worrying that the fact that there is a DM in D&D will cause issues as people fight over that role.
Huh...you don't think this isn't already a problem with PnP RPG's like D&D. I'm thinking you've never GM'd a game with a few rules lawyers seated around the table.  icon_wink

Quote
 It's a separate experience and there will be only one person at a time who can do it.  Kids will just have to deal with that.  Maybe it will make them better people when they grow up.

That's all fine and good, but from my experiences playing games with my kids nephews & nieces, they don't get the sharing of playtime so well. And I'd categorize them as better co-operators and sharers than the average kid - well maybe not so much my older nephew.  icon_confused  I'm also a parent that sits down and plays alongside their kids, so I'm their to facilitate. I think its going to be a real problem for those parents that use the Wii U as a baby-sitter -not that I condone that approach to kids gaming on a console- but it happens in busy households. I also think Nintendo is handing away a game feature/dynamic that they've historically supported better than the competition; local co-op play.
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« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2011, 04:56:06 PM »

I'll be steering clear of the Wii U, but not for the reasons anyone has mentioned.  For me it's the games.  If the quality of the games for the Wii is any indication of what I can expect for their next generation console, I don't think I'm the target audience anymore.  

I've owned my Wii since launch, and it gets the least amount of playtime in my family...by far. My kids prefer the PC, 360 and PS3, in that order.  I think I learned during this console generation that I'm just not a Nintendo guy anymore.  I wasn't wild about any of their iconic 1st party Wii titles, like a lot of people seemed to be, and I thought most of the 3rd party titles were shovelware...worse than some iphone $.99 apps.  I've never been into the big headed little kid look of many of the Nintendo 1st party titles, so that charm is really lost on me.

I hope it does well, and drives more innovation like the Wii did, but I'll be watching from the sidelines on this one.      
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« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2011, 05:18:47 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 12:22:17 AM

Quote from: Jumangi on June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices. The fact that it's going to run 1080p is going to be great, and suggests a more than adequate amount of power.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true. Just look at the demo Epic showed of what they can do with the latest PC tech with the Unreal engine. Thats a major step up in fidelity and what the next xbox/PS could do and would make the WiiU look like the curretn Wii does.

I don't think you understood what I said

Better graphics isn't the same as higher development costs. In fact, the opposite could be true. Today the developers have to spend a massive amount of time cheating with shaders to create effects that sort of look realistic without following the actual laws of physics exactly. Then they have to optimize, test, optimize again, and so on. Better hardware would reduce the need for cheating, allowing developers to go directly to the solution instead of trying to figure out a clever workaround and making it run fast in an already strained environment.

The 3D models made by graphics artists these days are much more detailed than what ends up in the games. Again they have to do extra work to make it run on a current console. They usually do this by creating a so-called normal map of the detailed model, unwrapping it, creating a far less detailed model, and then wrapping the normal map onto it. This tricks the player into seeing detail where there really is none (take a look at screenshots of humans in Doom 3 to see this at its worst), and is a very common technique today that we would be better off getting rid of (which won't happen with the next console cycle, admittedly. Still, they can reduce the use of this technique when the potential polygon count increases).

Physics are mere imitations of the stuff you learned at school. Once again the developers have to come up with clever ways to emulate real behavior. It has to be real enough to fool the player, but not real enough to bog down the CPU. Better hardware would reduce or eliminate the need for these simplifications, resulting in more satisfying and realistic physics and less bugs.

Unstable frame rates means the developers sometimes need to be clever to make the user interface and player actions and reactions responsive. This doesn't happen automatically. A stable frame rate removes a LOT of headaches for the devs, trust me! Having said that, companies like Microsoft guarantee you 60 frames per second in the code, even if the picture can't keep up and rendering of certain frames has to be skipped. Thanks to stuff like that, there's less to gain in this field.

The very, VERY limited amount of RAM on current consoles means the developers need to count every byte of data they add to the game and code memory managers and data streams that never go past the limit (or they might crash). Stuff they might like to add becomes very hard or impossible to fit into the limited space available, and compromises have to be made. See those crowds in Assassin's Creed? They probably all share the same animated skeleton because that stuff takes up a lot of RAM (and GPU once you start animating it. Duplication saves power here too). They are made out of a limited assortment of body parts too, because there's only so much that can be on the screen at once without bogging down everything. These algorithms have to be coded and tested, and systems have to be written to make sure detail is turned down for the least visible NPCs when things get hairy. This is not automatic.

There are many more examples of how the current limitations of consoles make game development harder than it needs to be. By increasing the available power you reduce the need to artificially simplify things, which ironically is harder than keeping them complex. Don't draw hasty conclusions based on the results you see on your screen.
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Bob
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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2011, 06:15:30 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 09, 2011, 04:24:33 PM

Quote from: Bob on June 09, 2011, 03:47:46 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 12:22:17 AM

Quote from: Jumangi on June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true.

I don't think you understood what I said

We may well reach a point where the leap up to the "next level" won't be worthwhile from a "cost of content creation" standpoint, but I don't think we are there yet.

You didn't.  Th' Fool's point (assuming I got the basic swing of it) isn't that there's nowhere left to go in improving graphics, it's that we're getting to diminishing returns on doing so.

Yes, more powerful hardware could make all the NPCs look incredibly detailed, but someone has to put all that detail in.  The amount of time and money spent doing that is becoming cost prohibitive.

Conversation summarized to show that I did indeed grasp Th'Fool's point.

So there.
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« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2011, 06:44:17 PM »

Quote from: Bob on June 09, 2011, 06:15:30 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 09, 2011, 04:24:33 PM

Quote from: Bob on June 09, 2011, 03:47:46 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 12:22:17 AM

Quote from: Jumangi on June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true.

I don't think you understood what I said

We may well reach a point where the leap up to the "next level" won't be worthwhile from a "cost of content creation" standpoint, but I don't think we are there yet.

You didn't.  Th' Fool's point (assuming I got the basic swing of it) isn't that there's nowhere left to go in improving graphics, it's that we're getting to diminishing returns on doing so.

Yes, more powerful hardware could make all the NPCs look incredibly detailed, but someone has to put all that detail in.  The amount of time and money spent doing that is becoming cost prohibitive.

Conversation summarized to show that I did indeed grasp Th'Fool's point.

So there.

Ah.  Yes, taking out the other stuff that doesn't lead to that conclusion, does make that conclusion seem to fit.   Tongue

Quote from: TiLT on June 09, 2011, 05:18:47 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 12:22:17 AM

Quote from: Jumangi on June 09, 2011, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 08, 2011, 10:06:50 PM


As far as power, we're really hitting the point of diminishing returns on graphics going past the PS3 and Xbox. I'm afraid that the more intensely detailed and graphics intense games get we'll be looking at longer dev cycles and higher game prices. The fact that it's going to run 1080p is going to be great, and suggests a more than adequate amount of power.

You realize that gets said all the time and shown to not be true. Just look at the demo Epic showed of what they can do with the latest PC tech with the Unreal engine. Thats a major step up in fidelity and what the next xbox/PS could do and would make the WiiU look like the curretn Wii does.

I don't think you understood what I said

Better graphics isn't the same as higher development costs. In fact, the opposite could be true. Today the developers have to spend a massive amount of time cheating with shaders to create effects that sort of look realistic without following the actual laws of physics exactly. Then they have to optimize, test, optimize again, and so on. Better hardware would reduce the need for cheating, allowing developers to go directly to the solution instead of trying to figure out a clever workaround and making it run fast in an already strained environment.

The 3D models made by graphics artists these days are much more detailed than what ends up in the games. Again they have to do extra work to make it run on a current console. They usually do this by creating a so-called normal map of the detailed model, unwrapping it, creating a far less detailed model, and then wrapping the normal map onto it. This tricks the player into seeing detail where there really is none (take a look at screenshots of humans in Doom 3 to see this at its worst), and is a very common technique today that we would be better off getting rid of (which won't happen with the next console cycle, admittedly. Still, they can reduce the use of this technique when the potential polygon count increases).

Physics are mere imitations of the stuff you learned at school. Once again the developers have to come up with clever ways to emulate real behavior. It has to be real enough to fool the player, but not real enough to bog down the CPU. Better hardware would reduce or eliminate the need for these simplifications, resulting in more satisfying and realistic physics and less bugs.

Unstable frame rates means the developers sometimes need to be clever to make the user interface and player actions and reactions responsive. This doesn't happen automatically. A stable frame rate removes a LOT of headaches for the devs, trust me! Having said that, companies like Microsoft guarantee you 60 frames per second in the code, even if the picture can't keep up and rendering of certain frames has to be skipped. Thanks to stuff like that, there's less to gain in this field.

The very, VERY limited amount of RAM on current consoles means the developers need to count every byte of data they add to the game and code memory managers and data streams that never go past the limit (or they might crash). Stuff they might like to add becomes very hard or impossible to fit into the limited space available, and compromises have to be made. See those crowds in Assassin's Creed? They probably all share the same animated skeleton because that stuff takes up a lot of RAM (and GPU once you start animating it. Duplication saves power here too). They are made out of a limited assortment of body parts too, because there's only so much that can be on the screen at once without bogging down everything. These algorithms have to be coded and tested, and systems have to be written to make sure detail is turned down for the least visible NPCs when things get hairy. This is not automatic.

There are many more examples of how the current limitations of consoles make game development harder than it needs to be. By increasing the available power you reduce the need to artificially simplify things, which ironically is harder than keeping them complex. Don't draw hasty conclusions based on the results you see on your screen.


Again with the finger wagging that everyone is jumping to conclusion.

You make some good points, but even though you're using more words, I think you're oversimplifying in saying that basically more power will solve the problem.

If you look at the physics example you brought up, let's even say that somehow we get enough power in these machines to have 100% accurate physics (I know you're not saying that and it's not possible).  Things in the game world act exactly as they would in real life.  First of all, is that going to really be fun?  Maybe in some sim-like cases, but not in all, and that's going to lead to tweaking.  Tweaking will lead to other problems.  Those problems will lead to more problems.  Every step up brings a whole new slew of issues to solve.  It's the reason that games at the end of a console's life cycle look and behave so much better than the ones at the beginning.
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« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2011, 06:49:40 PM »

I have only this to add: Every time someone has said "we have all the tech we need" something has come along to prove them wrong.

I don't believe that the next leap in graphics will be much of a cost leap in content-creation from where we are now. It seems to me that in many cases, the art assets all exist at a higher level already and are "rendered down" to what the game actually requires.
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« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2011, 07:03:30 PM »

Quote from: Bob on June 09, 2011, 06:49:40 PM

I have only this to add: Every time someone has said "we have all the tech we need" something has come along to prove them wrong.

I don't believe that the next leap in graphics will be much of a cost leap in content-creation from where we are now. It seems to me that in many cases, the art assets all exist at a higher level already and are "rendered down" to what the game actually requires.

At no point did I say "we have all the tech we need". I think the point a lot of you are missing is that a console need not be bleeding edge to be successful and fun to play. The most bleeding edge tech is in the worst selling platform right now. If the WiiU has tech that's maybe an incremental step or two above the PS3 then it's already going to do better than the Wii did at launch in that regard.

I guess, in essence, Nintendo is saying "we have all the tech we need", and from where I'm sitting, it will be several years before we notice the difference.

I think it's also interesting to notice that, rather than push resolution past 1080p, HDTV tech is going in the direction of adding augmentative tech such as 3D or network/streaming capabilities. It seems, at least in that regard, a wall has been hit.
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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2011, 07:17:58 PM »

Quote from: kronovan on June 09, 2011, 04:50:15 PM

Quote from: The Grue on June 09, 2011, 04:25:06 PM

Quote from: kronovan on June 09, 2011, 02:16:25 PM


This concerns me a lot too. I can't see how it won't be a disaster for families with younger children - heck even teens. That the U will only support one tablet controler is the biggest surprise for me and a very bad decision IMO.

It's like worrying that the fact that there is a DM in D&D will cause issues as people fight over that role.
Huh...you don't think this isn't already a problem with PnP RPG's like D&D. I'm thinking you've never GM'd a game with a few rules lawyers seated around the table.  icon_wink

So it'll be more like "You have to use the tablet tonight! Hahaha sucker. I get the wiimote."
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2011, 07:18:25 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 07:03:30 PM

I think it's also interesting to notice that, rather than push resolution past 1080p, HDTV tech is going in the direction of adding augmentative tech such as 3D or network/streaming capabilities. It seems, at least in that regard, a wall has been hit.

Nonsense! There's a new format out (with HDMI 1.4) that supports resolutions of up to 40962160p. It's pretty new so far, but TV manufacturers seem to be slowly pushing in that direction, and there are TVs that support it.
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2011, 07:25:45 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 09, 2011, 07:18:25 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 07:03:30 PM

I think it's also interesting to notice that, rather than push resolution past 1080p, HDTV tech is going in the direction of adding augmentative tech such as 3D or network/streaming capabilities. It seems, at least in that regard, a wall has been hit.

Nonsense! There's a new format out (with HDMI 1.4) that supports resolutions of up to 40962160p. It's pretty new so far, but TV manufacturers seem to be slowly pushing in that direction, and there are TVs that support it.

Wow. Just googled it and saw that the first products were available 2 years ago? Doesn't seem to be gaining much traction in either perception or marketplace. Again, still telling that all the manufacturers are focusing elsewhere
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« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2011, 07:28:37 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 07:25:45 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 09, 2011, 07:18:25 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 07:03:30 PM

I think it's also interesting to notice that, rather than push resolution past 1080p, HDTV tech is going in the direction of adding augmentative tech such as 3D or network/streaming capabilities. It seems, at least in that regard, a wall has been hit.

Nonsense! There's a new format out (with HDMI 1.4) that supports resolutions of up to 40962160p. It's pretty new so far, but TV manufacturers seem to be slowly pushing in that direction, and there are TVs that support it.

Wow. Just googled it and saw that the first products were available 2 years ago? Doesn't seem to be gaining much traction in either perception or marketplace. Again, still telling that all the manufacturers are focusing elsewhere

There isn't really any media for that format yet, and publishers don't want to start a push for a successor to Blu-ray yet. In other words, HDTV tech is there, but content providers don't use it. No wall has been hit, but technology has progressed faster than the demand.
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« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2011, 07:51:03 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 07:03:30 PM

The most bleeding edge tech is in the worst selling platform right now.

Yes, but I think it's fair to say that it's not as a result of them pushing that tech.  Take the ease of XBox Live and put it on PSN at the same time, and you have a much more competitive market, perhaps even enough to give Sony the edge.  I buy my MP games exclusively on 360 because the MP experience is so much easier and all my (internet) friends are on it.

Nintendo is the goose that lays the golden eggs.  Unfortunately, they stil put out a lot of guano to go with it.  How's that Vitality Sensor working out for them?

No one is going to push for visuals past 1080 because there is no pressing demand for it.  You've hit diminishing returns in terms of the user visual experience.  But at the end of it, that's still just the pretty pictures.

Think of it this way.  The tech involved in pressing forward with these machines isn't tied to the difficulties of displaying 1080, it's rendering 1080 in real time.  Look at the documentaries about the tech that it takes to make movies like Pixar does.  It takes hours if not days to render these scenes that they're showing us at the theaters.  

The improvement in graphics is driven by the ability to drive better rendering at faster speeds.  There will be a day where consoles are capable of delivering Toy Story 1 level graphics in real time.  But as we've seen, graphics will only get you so far without a reasonable user experience to go with it.
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« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2011, 08:10:09 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on June 09, 2011, 07:51:03 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on June 09, 2011, 07:03:30 PM

The most bleeding edge tech is in the worst selling platform right now.

Yes, but I think it's fair to say that it's not as a result of them pushing that tech.  Take the ease of XBox Live and put it on PSN at the same time, and you have a much more competitive market, perhaps even enough to give Sony the edge.  I buy my MP games exclusively on 360 because the MP experience is so much easier and all my (internet) friends are on it.

Those are valid reasons but can we please stop calling PS3 bleeding edge because it is far from that.  If it really was bleeding edge, I think it would have done a lot better.  Instead they put some shitty video card in there and I have yet to play a PS3 game that looks better than any 360 game.  The Kinect is bleeding edge and it's selling just fine so I tend to disagree with th'FOOL's original premise.
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« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2011, 08:18:29 PM »

Of the three platforms on release, the PS3 WAS the most bleeding edge in terms of tech components (not just the video card). It's what forced the price to be so freakin' high on release.

Even the tech components in the Kinect aren't what anyone would be considered bleeding edge- the tech has been around for years. The implementation of the tech is what sets it apart.
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