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Author Topic: Ubisoft unveils new copy protection system; R.U.S.E. Not using it!  (Read 10797 times)
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EngineNo9
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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2010, 03:22:13 AM »

Quote from: Punisher on February 23, 2010, 03:14:11 AM

Remember even if you have a PERFECT Internet connection (which I don't think is even possible.... I am pretty sure that EVERY connection has drops, even if they are only for a second or two), you also need to make surethat your connection is perfect right up to Ubi's servers AND that their servers have 100% uptime....Again, not possible....

If you lose your connection from you to Ubi, even for 1-2 seconds, you can get booted out of your game and lose all progress.. I think PC Gamer tested this by unplugging their ethernet while in AC2 and it booted them out of the game and they lost their progress....

Not that I agree with their methodology, but I can certainly play any number of online games for hours on end with no connection issues.  MMO's, action games, whatever, and I don't get dropped.  And I highly doubt it is the result of a single dropped packet, I'd guess it has to be a sustained connection timeout for several seconds at the least.
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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2010, 03:27:04 AM »

Quote from: Chaz on February 23, 2010, 03:00:39 AM

While I do my gaming with a solid, always-on connection, it's a terrible precedent to set to make it a constant requirement where it serves no real useful purpose to the player.  As much as it likely wouldn't negatively affect my personal ability to play the games, I'd rather vote against it by not buying it.  I'm not generally a DRM alarmist, but this really rubs me the wrong way.

Well, yes, it serves no useful purpose to the player - to say that it does offer anything more than a slight incremental value (depending upon how much you value things like multiple installs/saves across different computers/locations) is nothing but marketing spin.

The question though is what benefit it offers the publisher weighed against the inconvenience (if any) to the user.  I'm not seeing any major inconvenience to the user - just much gnashing of teeth over *potential* user issues.

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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2010, 03:33:34 AM »

Let me give you one example I personally experienced while playing Army of Two Two on the 360:

1) Friend and I were playing co-op with each other across the country.
2) Game works great 99% of the time. We kick all kinds of ass, voice chat works great, no lag, etc.
3) Suddenly, with no warning, we get a 'user has aborted session' error. Voice chat continues to work, so it's not like Live borked up for either of us. The otherwise perfect connection just randomly failed.
4) We now have to restart at the latest checkpoint, as A2:2 has no 'bring player back in at host's point' feature.
5) Tally beating the game twice was somewhere between a half-dozen and a full dozen blips like that.

This is what you'll be experiencing when playing a SINGLE PLAYER GAME with Ubisoft's new bullshit scheme. Your 'net connection blip for any reason? Ubisoft's servers blip for any reason? YOU'RE FUCKED.

There is NO such thing as a solid, always-on connection 100% of the time. Period.

Oh, and once again, the pirates will crack this Day 1 and will NEVER have to deal with Ubisoft's bullshit. And neither will I, because I will NEVER buy a game with this kind of protection on it.
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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2010, 03:34:08 AM »

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 02:54:20 AM

Hmm.. This still just doesn't bother me.  I have an always-on connection anyway, and I have other, better devices to entertain me in airports.  I mean, how often is the average gamer sitting on an airplane anyway?

I understand that it's irritating in concept, but in practice, a) I don't pirate games and b) I play PC games at home 99.5% of the time on a solid connection so c) I just won't get worked up over this. 



Let's say your internet connection is perfect and available 24/7 without any interruption. That still doesn't guarantee you have solid connection to Ubisoft server. There are a lot of switches between your ISP to ubisoft server, any of them can affect your connection to Ubisoft server. There is also no guarantee that Ubisoft server is available to accept connection. There are plenty of possibility that can cause the Ubisoft server to be inaccessible, things like overloaded (there are plenty of example where authentication server can't handle the request for activations on launch date and that is only one time connection while Ubisoft's DRM require constant connection), DDoS attack on the server, hardware failure, software bugs, networking problem, etc.
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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2010, 03:50:22 AM »

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on February 23, 2010, 03:34:08 AM

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 02:54:20 AM

Hmm.. This still just doesn't bother me.  I have an always-on connection anyway, and I have other, better devices to entertain me in airports.  I mean, how often is the average gamer sitting on an airplane anyway?

I understand that it's irritating in concept, but in practice, a) I don't pirate games and b) I play PC games at home 99.5% of the time on a solid connection so c) I just won't get worked up over this. 



Let's say your internet connection is perfect and available 24/7 without any interruption. That still doesn't guarantee you have solid connection to Ubisoft server. There are a lot of switches between your ISP to ubisoft server, any of them can affect your connection to Ubisoft server. There is also no guarantee that Ubisoft server is available to accept connection. There are plenty of possibility that can cause the Ubisoft server to be inaccessible, things like overloaded (there are plenty of example where authentication server can't handle the request for activations on launch date and that is only one time connection while Ubisoft's DRM require constant connection), DDoS attack on the server, hardware failure, software bugs, networking problem, etc.

And you just know that Ubi's servers are going to see some DDoS attacks.   icon_twisted
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« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2010, 03:54:46 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on February 23, 2010, 03:50:22 AM

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on February 23, 2010, 03:34:08 AM

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 02:54:20 AM

Hmm.. This still just doesn't bother me.  I have an always-on connection anyway, and I have other, better devices to entertain me in airports.  I mean, how often is the average gamer sitting on an airplane anyway?

I understand that it's irritating in concept, but in practice, a) I don't pirate games and b) I play PC games at home 99.5% of the time on a solid connection so c) I just won't get worked up over this. 



Let's say your internet connection is perfect and available 24/7 without any interruption. That still doesn't guarantee you have solid connection to Ubisoft server. There are a lot of switches between your ISP to ubisoft server, any of them can affect your connection to Ubisoft server. There is also no guarantee that Ubisoft server is available to accept connection. There are plenty of possibility that can cause the Ubisoft server to be inaccessible, things like overloaded (there are plenty of example where authentication server can't handle the request for activations on launch date and that is only one time connection while Ubisoft's DRM require constant connection), DDoS attack on the server, hardware failure, software bugs, networking problem, etc.

And you just know that Ubi's servers are going to see some DDoS attacks.   icon_twisted

That's evil thought...but totally true.  It will happen  icon_twisted
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« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2010, 04:25:07 AM »

Quote from: Destructor on February 23, 2010, 03:33:34 AM

Let me give you one example I personally experienced while playing Army of Two Two on the 360:

1) Friend and I were playing co-op with each other across the country.
2) Game works great 99% of the time. We kick all kinds of ass, voice chat works great, no lag, etc.
3) Suddenly, with no warning, we get a 'user has aborted session' error. Voice chat continues to work, so it's not like Live borked up for either of us. The otherwise perfect connection just randomly failed.
4) We now have to restart at the latest checkpoint, as A2:2 has no 'bring player back in at host's point' feature.
5) Tally beating the game twice was somewhere between a half-dozen and a full dozen blips like that.

This is what you'll be experiencing when playing a SINGLE PLAYER GAME with Ubisoft's new bullshit scheme. Your 'net connection blip for any reason? Ubisoft's servers blip for any reason? YOU'RE FUCKED.

There is NO such thing as a solid, always-on connection 100% of the time. Period.

Oh, and once again, the pirates will crack this Day 1 and will NEVER have to deal with Ubisoft's bullshit. And neither will I, because I will NEVER buy a game with this kind of protection on it.

See the bolded part.  1% more inconvenience?  I just don't care. I don't mean that in a snarky way, it's just not going to ruin my day if it happens once or twice a year or so.  UBI is not the problem - blame the pirates for making publishers resort to this bullshit.  I guess that's my fundamental issue here - assholes *steal* shit that doesn't belong to them and the publisher is blamed for having to keep putting bigger locks on their doors.  WTF?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 04:39:28 AM by Geezer » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2010, 04:26:47 AM »

Quote from: Zero on February 23, 2010, 03:54:46 AM

Quote from: Blackadar on February 23, 2010, 03:50:22 AM

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on February 23, 2010, 03:34:08 AM

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 02:54:20 AM

Hmm.. This still just doesn't bother me.  I have an always-on connection anyway, and I have other, better devices to entertain me in airports.  I mean, how often is the average gamer sitting on an airplane anyway?

I understand that it's irritating in concept, but in practice, a) I don't pirate games and b) I play PC games at home 99.5% of the time on a solid connection so c) I just won't get worked up over this. 



Let's say your internet connection is perfect and available 24/7 without any interruption. That still doesn't guarantee you have solid connection to Ubisoft server. There are a lot of switches between your ISP to ubisoft server, any of them can affect your connection to Ubisoft server. There is also no guarantee that Ubisoft server is available to accept connection. There are plenty of possibility that can cause the Ubisoft server to be inaccessible, things like overloaded (there are plenty of example where authentication server can't handle the request for activations on launch date and that is only one time connection while Ubisoft's DRM require constant connection), DDoS attack on the server, hardware failure, software bugs, networking problem, etc.

And you just know that Ubi's servers are going to see some DDoS attacks.   icon_twisted

That's evil thought...but totally true.  It will happen  icon_twisted

Yep and people will cheer it because it sticks it to Ubi - forget about that fact that it will royally fuck with people that have already paid for their games.  I gues sthey have to burn the village to save it.   I don't have the words to express my disdain, so I'll toss out the horribly used  Roll Eyes .  Sorry frown
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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2010, 04:39:07 AM »

See, I just don't get why they require a constant connection.  Sync once to start the game (also as needed to load save games off the cloud).  Try your best to keep the connection and push new saves, but if it fails oh well, keep the saves local and let the player know that until it gets reconnected his latest save will be local only.

This stops pirates, offers new features to the user, and doesn't put you at the whim of internet stability.  I get the arguments about requiring an internet connection all together, but I don't get why they think they need a constant connection.  If one user starting the game, pulling his internet connection, and then calling his friend and telling him it is safe to start his game a big risk?  There are even ways around that with a bit of cleverness.
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« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2010, 04:44:28 AM »

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 04:25:07 AM

Quote from: Destructor on February 23, 2010, 03:33:34 AM

Let me give you one example I personally experienced while playing Army of Two Two on the 360:

1) Friend and I were playing co-op with each other across the country.
2) Game works great 99% of the time. We kick all kinds of ass, voice chat works great, no lag, etc.
3) Suddenly, with no warning, we get a 'user has aborted session' error. Voice chat continues to work, so it's not like Live borked up for either of us. The otherwise perfect connection just randomly failed.
4) We now have to restart at the latest checkpoint, as A2:2 has no 'bring player back in at host's point' feature.
5) Tally beating the game twice was somewhere between a half-dozen and a full dozen blips like that.

This is what you'll be experiencing when playing a SINGLE PLAYER GAME with Ubisoft's new bullshit scheme. Your 'net connection blip for any reason? Ubisoft's servers blip for any reason? YOU'RE FUCKED.

There is NO such thing as a solid, always-on connection 100% of the time. Period.

Oh, and once again, the pirates will crack this Day 1 and will NEVER have to deal with Ubisoft's bullshit. And neither will I, because I will NEVER buy a game with this kind of protection on it.

See the bolded part.  1% more inconvenience?  I just don't care. I don't mean that in a snarky way, it's just not going to ruin my day if it happens once or twice a year or so.  UBI is not the problem - blame the pirates for making publishers resort to this bullshit.  I guess that's my fundamental issue here - assholes *steal* shit that belong to them and the publisher is blamed for having to keep putting bigger locks on their doors.  WTF?

The fundamental issue here is that assholes *steals* shit and the customers who pay them get punished. I don't blame Ubisoft for putting bigger locks on their doors, I blame them for trying to put bigger locks on my doors and I have to ask their permission using a constant internet connection to open my doors.

It is the same with the DDoS thing, assholes attack Ubisoft and the customers are the one that get punished.
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« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2010, 04:50:23 AM »

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 02:54:20 AM

Hmm.. This still just doesn't bother me.  I have an always-on connection anyway, and I have other, better devices to entertain me in airports.  I mean, how often is the average gamer sitting on an airplane anyway?

I understand that it's irritating in concept, but in practice, a) I don't pirate games and b) I play PC games at home 99.5% of the time on a solid connection so c) I just won't get worked up over this.  



until the time comes that you're internet is down and you really want to play, or it goes down and you lose a save.

at that point, we'll all try to avoid the "i told you so" replies.

...but it'll be hard after seeing you cry.   icon_cry

'fess up, geez...you work for ubi, right?  cause you're tryin' really hard to convince everyone this is nothing when the vast majority of folks out there believe it is something.   Tongue
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« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2010, 04:55:36 AM »

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/02/19/drmogeddon-part-2/

Quote
This isnít only going to upset the people who turn a funny colour whenever DRM is mentioned, those admirably principled few who are, alas, easily dismissed by businessmen because theyíre just a few thousand guys shouting at the internet. Itís going to affect *anyone* from that much larger world beyond ours who buys the game and tries to play it on the move, has a flaky ISP or sub-optimal wifi. Itís going to be returned en masse, retailers are going to be complained to, angry middle-aged men are going to ring up magazines and ventÖ

At least, thatís what should happen, and thatís where you merry band of heroes come in. The key is not to purely be furious, and itís not simply even to vow youíll never buy these games (especially if you werenít going to anyway), but rather to ensure that people are fully aware of the restrictions this system means.

That energy youíre intending to spend on leaving a comment about how much you despise Ubisoft for this? Donít waste it here, squandered on hate that goes nowhere but your keyboard. Go spend it on calmly explaining what it really means to someone who might unwittingly buy one of these games. Let those potential customers who donít instantly pick up online scandal, or who arenít web- or tech-savvy enough to know how to comb through the surface screaming and find the meat of the argument know why this system will prevent them from enjoying something theyíve paid for. Thatís what this is about.

If you want to try to write to Ubisoft about this.

http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/index.php?p=69&art_id=
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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2010, 05:04:22 AM »

So where's the point on the moral compass if I buy the game and then download the crack to get past it?  TO the general community am I a supporter, a hypocrite, or a pirate?  I'm pretty sure Ubi would lump me in as pirate at any attempt to crack it, paid for or not.
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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2010, 05:10:50 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on February 23, 2010, 05:04:22 AM

So where's the point on the moral compass if I buy the game and then download the crack to get past it?  TO the general community am I a supporter, a hypocrite, or a pirate?  I'm pretty sure Ubi would lump me in as pirate at any attempt to crack it, paid for or not.

Don't. Wait until Ubisoft remove the DRM from the games then buy it when it is cheaper.
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« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2010, 05:42:24 AM »

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 04:25:07 AM

UBI is not the problem - blame the pirates for making publishers resort to this bullshit.  I guess that's my fundamental issue here - assholes *steal* shit that doesn't belong to them and the publisher is blamed for having to keep putting bigger locks on their doors.  WTF?

Are you really so naive as to think this is true? This doesn't stop pirates. In fact, the pirates won't even notice this protection because it'll be stripped away by crackers by the time they get their hands on it. Ubisoft has taken a giant step towards making pirated games more user-friendly than original ones.

I don't use a single piece of pirated software. I have about 25 original PS3-games (not counting PSN-titles), 8 PSP games, a dozen DS games, around 50+ PC games (not counting digital purchases) and vast amounts of music software. All of it is original.

I can tell you right now that if I see a Ubisoft game I like that is protected by this DRM, I will pirate it. I won't even feel bad about doing so.
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« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2010, 05:44:02 AM »

Thinking about this, the ones I feel really bad for are the developers, particularly those working on more niche PC-only games like Silent Hunter.  The sales potential for that game is already fairly low.  The people who buy PC games tend to be more aware of what's going on, so this new scheme is definitely going to cost sales, and rightfully so.  Now the developers have busted their asses, but will be in danger of losing their jobs because of low sales numbers caused by Ubi's decision to put in this draconian copy protection.

I can only imagine how pissed they must have been when word came down from the publisher that this thing was going to have to be implemented.  I feel really bad for them.
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« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2010, 05:49:32 AM »

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 04:25:07 AM

Quote from: Destructor on February 23, 2010, 03:33:34 AM

Let me give you one example I personally experienced while playing Army of Two Two on the 360:

1) Friend and I were playing co-op with each other across the country.
2) Game works great 99% of the time. We kick all kinds of ass, voice chat works great, no lag, etc.
3) Suddenly, with no warning, we get a 'user has aborted session' error. Voice chat continues to work, so it's not like Live borked up for either of us. The otherwise perfect connection just randomly failed.
4) We now have to restart at the latest checkpoint, as A2:2 has no 'bring player back in at host's point' feature.
5) Tally beating the game twice was somewhere between a half-dozen and a full dozen blips like that.

This is what you'll be experiencing when playing a SINGLE PLAYER GAME with Ubisoft's new bullshit scheme. Your 'net connection blip for any reason? Ubisoft's servers blip for any reason? YOU'RE FUCKED.

There is NO such thing as a solid, always-on connection 100% of the time. Period.

Oh, and once again, the pirates will crack this Day 1 and will NEVER have to deal with Ubisoft's bullshit. And neither will I, because I will NEVER buy a game with this kind of protection on it.
See the bolded part.  1% more inconvenience?  I just don't care. I don't mean that in a snarky way, it's just not going to ruin my day if it happens once or twice a year or so.  UBI is not the problem - blame the pirates for making publishers resort to this bullshit.  I guess that's my fundamental issue here - assholes *steal* shit that doesn't belong to them and the publisher is blamed for having to keep putting bigger locks on their doors.  WTF?

You apparently didn't read the part where I had my co-op game totally interrupted multiple times so I had to start over from the last save.

It's not 1% more inconvenient. It's bloody annoying.
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« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2010, 05:50:35 AM »

I was saying the same thing about Blue Byte and the new Settlers game, since it's being published by Ubisoft.
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« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2010, 05:51:47 AM »

Quote from: Destructor on February 23, 2010, 05:49:32 AM

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 04:25:07 AM

Quote from: Destructor on February 23, 2010, 03:33:34 AM

Let me give you one example I personally experienced while playing Army of Two Two on the 360:

1) Friend and I were playing co-op with each other across the country.
2) Game works great 99% of the time. We kick all kinds of ass, voice chat works great, no lag, etc.
3) Suddenly, with no warning, we get a 'user has aborted session' error. Voice chat continues to work, so it's not like Live borked up for either of us. The otherwise perfect connection just randomly failed.
4) We now have to restart at the latest checkpoint, as A2:2 has no 'bring player back in at host's point' feature.
5) Tally beating the game twice was somewhere between a half-dozen and a full dozen blips like that.

This is what you'll be experiencing when playing a SINGLE PLAYER GAME with Ubisoft's new bullshit scheme. Your 'net connection blip for any reason? Ubisoft's servers blip for any reason? YOU'RE FUCKED.

There is NO such thing as a solid, always-on connection 100% of the time. Period.

Oh, and once again, the pirates will crack this Day 1 and will NEVER have to deal with Ubisoft's bullshit. And neither will I, because I will NEVER buy a game with this kind of protection on it.
See the bolded part.  1% more inconvenience?  I just don't care. I don't mean that in a snarky way, it's just not going to ruin my day if it happens once or twice a year or so.  UBI is not the problem - blame the pirates for making publishers resort to this bullshit.  I guess that's my fundamental issue here - assholes *steal* shit that doesn't belong to them and the publisher is blamed for having to keep putting bigger locks on their doors.  WTF?

You apparently didn't read the part where I had my co-op game totally interrupted multiple times so I had to start over from the last save.

It's not 1% more inconvenient. It's bloody annoying.

and without this DRM that 1% inconvenience wouldn't be there in the first place.
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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2010, 05:53:59 AM »

Those developers have to blame themselves for choosing Ubisoft.
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« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2010, 06:01:59 AM »

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on February 23, 2010, 05:53:59 AM

Those developers have to blame themselves for choosing Ubisoft.


I can see that for devs who signed on after they announced this new DRM, but those who signed on before all this deserve at least some pity; it's not their fault that Ubisoft changed up things like this.
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« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2010, 08:19:20 AM »

As we all know company servers tend to...go down once in a while - and then? Voila - you'r perfect connection wont help you, since you cant play the game you bought (sorry, LICENSED, of course) once that happens...

Is that fine?
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« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2010, 09:58:49 AM »

Quote from: TiLT on February 23, 2010, 05:42:24 AM

Are you really so naive as to think this is true? This doesn't stop pirates. In fact, the pirates won't even notice this protection because it'll be stripped away by crackers by the time they get their hands on it. Ubisoft has taken a giant step towards making pirated games more user-friendly than original ones.

This has always been one of the major points for me.  It pisses me off that pirates get superior products while those of us who pay get all this bullshit.  I'm not sure I'd go as far as to pirate any of Ubi's games - god knows I have more than enough in my backlog as it is - but I certainly wouldn't hold a grudge against those who do, if they're people who normally buy their games legitimately.

What worries me is that any kind of boycott, protest or whatever will ultimately have no significant impact on Ubi's sales.  They'll proclaim their DRM a success and there'll be no going back.
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« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2010, 05:50:17 PM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on February 23, 2010, 03:22:13 AM

Quote from: Punisher on February 23, 2010, 03:14:11 AM

Remember even if you have a PERFECT Internet connection (which I don't think is even possible.... I am pretty sure that EVERY connection has drops, even if they are only for a second or two), you also need to make surethat your connection is perfect right up to Ubi's servers AND that their servers have 100% uptime....Again, not possible....

If you lose your connection from you to Ubi, even for 1-2 seconds, you can get booted out of your game and lose all progress.. I think PC Gamer tested this by unplugging their ethernet while in AC2 and it booted them out of the game and they lost their progress....

Not that I agree with their methodology, but I can certainly play any number of online games for hours on end with no connection issues.  MMO's, action games, whatever, and I don't get dropped.  And I highly doubt it is the result of a single dropped packet, I'd guess it has to be a sustained connection timeout for several seconds at the least.
During the PC Gamer test they unplugged the ethernet cable to simulate a drop. It instantly kicked them out of the game and back to the menu and lost all of their progress. This was a real world test. Ubisoft themselves have said the same thing in interviews...
Also, Many existing online games, especially MMO's have ways of dealing with dropped packets/connections. They will give you those few seconds to reconnect or you will see lag or rubberbanding, but then get back to normal.
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« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2010, 05:54:21 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 23, 2010, 04:50:23 AM

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 02:54:20 AM

Hmm.. This still just doesn't bother me.  I have an always-on connection anyway, and I have other, better devices to entertain me in airports.  I mean, how often is the average gamer sitting on an airplane anyway?
I understand that it's irritating in concept, but in practice, a) I don't pirate games and b) I play PC games at home 99.5% of the time on a solid connection so c) I just won't get worked up over this.  
until the time comes that you're internet is down and you really want to play, or it goes down and you lose a save.
at that point, we'll all try to avoid the "i told you so" replies.
You know, in this case I dont think I would be able to hold back. smile
I don't normally get worked up over DRM, but this is well beyond any reasonable DRM and bordering on insanity... The real issue is that many people will buy the game either unknowingly or with a "it won't happen to me" thing, then if/when it does happen, Ubisoft will already have the money and the customer will be out of theirs (remember you can't really return opened software anywhere). Ubi will still show sales...
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« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2010, 06:24:58 PM »

I'm just teasin' geezer, he's a decent guy.  But i honestly don't understand how he can't view this DRM implementation as being too harsh for consumers who are essentially being punished for legally purchasing software from Ubisoft.   icon_confused
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« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2010, 07:41:22 PM »

Whenever someone does something absurdly bad, there'll always be someone around to defend them, no matter how morally reprehensible the situation. It's human nature. Tongue
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« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2010, 08:00:37 PM »

true, eve Hitler had his defenders  icon_twisted
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« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2010, 08:03:19 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on February 23, 2010, 08:00:37 PM

true, eve Hitler had his defenders  icon_twisted

did we really need to godwinize before page 4?
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« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2010, 08:08:06 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 23, 2010, 08:03:19 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on February 23, 2010, 08:00:37 PM

true, eve Hitler had his defenders  icon_twisted

did we really need to godwinize before page 4?

I was getting bored, but then again it occurred to me that it might not be considered that if intentional. Can we get a ruling?
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« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2010, 08:16:40 PM »

the standard procedure is to hang on until at least page 4, realize you can't change someone's mind, THEN bring out the Nazi references.  you jumped straight to it by page 2.  really, we need to get you the handbook.  it clearly states "no reference to hitler in a fit of exasperation until at least page 4, or a reference to Mussolini has already been made at some point.".
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« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2010, 01:48:48 AM »

Quote from: Chaz on February 23, 2010, 05:44:02 AM

Thinking about this, the ones I feel really bad for are the developers, particularly those working on more niche PC-only games like Silent Hunter.  The sales potential for that game is already fairly low.  The people who buy PC games tend to be more aware of what's going on, so this new scheme is definitely going to cost sales, and rightfully so.  Now the developers have busted their asses, but will be in danger of losing their jobs because of low sales numbers caused by Ubi's decision to put in this draconian copy protection.

I can only imagine how pissed they must have been when word came down from the publisher that this thing was going to have to be implemented.  I feel really bad for them.

Amen.  This will be one of the primary reasons we do not see a Silent Hunter 6.  Ubi just F-ed those devs.
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« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2010, 05:53:02 AM »

Quote from: TiLT on February 23, 2010, 07:41:22 PM

Whenever someone does something absurdly bad, there'll always be someone around to defend them, no matter how morally reprehensible the situation. It's human nature. Tongue

Aw damn.  Y'all are harsh.  frown  To answer a few questions posed:

1) No, I don't work for Ubi, but I do own a small software publisher (not gaming - business apps) and it bugs me when I see our stuff being stolen.  But it bugs me even more when I see stuff that we gave away for free being resold to victimized consumers online.  

2) If my my Internet connection goes down and I want to play Silent Hunter 5 and I can't atthat moment, I'm not gonna come here and bitch about it - because my Internet connection will be down slywink

3) I think y'all underestimate the value of locking out casual piracy.  Now, maybe those darn kids today are all up on their torrents and stuff, and maybe they know all sorts of ways to break even the best DRM, but I suspect that there are a whole slew of folks out there that don't have a clue about how to pirate if it's not slapping them inthe face

3a) SH5 is going to appeal to sim geeks and history buffs.  Probably and older demographic, in general, and one that is not all hip to the current state of torrent-driven piracy.

4) Most teeth-gnashing seems to be of the "pirates will get it anyway - DRM just punishes legit users" variety.  We just have a fundamental disconnect there.  you could apply that same logic to any law - lawbreakers will always break laws, those that follow the law will be restricted.  Put another way, is the presence of lawbreakers a good resaon to dispense with law?  "Why put locks on your house?  Someone that wants your stuff will just break in anyway, and you might lose your key and lock yourself out.  It's just not worth it!"

5) I'm going to buy one copy of SH5 for everyone on this thread that says they refuse to buy it.  Just to encourage Ubi slywink

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 05:55:35 AM by Geezer » Logged
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« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2010, 01:38:07 PM »

Quote from: Geezer on February 24, 2010, 05:53:02 AM


2) If my my Internet connection goes down and I want to play Silent Hunter 5 and I can't atthat moment, I'm not gonna come here and bitch about it - because my Internet connection will be down slywink
4) Most teeth-gnashing seems to be of the "pirates will get it anyway - DRM just punishes legit users" variety.  We just have a fundamental disconnect there.  you could apply that same logic to any law - lawbreakers will always break laws, those that follow the law will be restricted.  Put another way, is the presence of lawbreakers a good resaon to dispense with law?  "Why put locks on your house?  Someone that wants your stuff will just break in anyway, and you might lose your key and lock yourself out.  It's just not worth it!"
These 2 are related so.....
With this DRM, it's NOT just about being able to start a game at any given time.... It's about being in the middle of the game and getting kicked out of it with no warning.... So again, you are in the middle of a long patrol in SH5, maybe you just spent 20 minutes or so playing... You Internet drops for even a second or two and you game exits with no save. You just lost all that time..
This would be similiar to a business app like a spreadsheet.... You just spent 20 minutes entering data, then you Internet goes down and the spreadsheet exits to desktop and you just lost all that info....Try this type of DRM with your business customers and see how long it lasts...

As for your house analogy, you're right, I wouldn't take my locks off, but using your analogy, this isn't about locks and doors to keep out theives...This is more like:
I put locks, doors, retinal scanners, dna verification, guards, guard dogs, alarms, maybe a moat.... Then I require EVERYONE (friends, family, UPS drivers, etccc) to also call me when on the way in through all of these measures and if their phone call drops at all I release the hounds and kick them back to the entrance to start over...

Quote from: Geezer on February 24, 2010, 05:53:02 AM

3) I think y'all underestimate the value of locking out casual piracy.  Now, maybe those darn kids today are all up on their torrents and stuff, and maybe they know all sorts of ways to break even the best DRM, but I suspect that there are a whole slew of folks out there that don't have a clue about how to pirate if it's not slapping them inthe face

3a) SH5 is going to appeal to sim geeks and history buffs.  Probably and older demographic, in general, and one that is not all hip to the current state of torrent-driven piracy.
This is WAY beyond locking out casual piracy! Casual piracy is pretty much when someone takes their disc and does a straight copy for a friend. This has been stopped for YEARS with even basic copy protection for those people "not all hip to the current state of torrent-driven piracy." There would be no reason for a new DRM for these type of people. Those people who already know how to get cracks would most likely also know where to get the cracked full game in the first place.
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« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2010, 02:38:01 PM »

Quote from: Geezer on February 24, 2010, 05:53:02 AM



5) I'm going to buy one copy of SH5 for everyone on this thread that says they refuse to buy it.  Just to encourage Ubi slywink



I REFUSE to buy SH5!

<pm me for my shipping address>

Quote
4) Most teeth-gnashing seems to be of the "pirates will get it anyway - DRM just punishes legit users" variety.  We just have a fundamental disconnect there.  you could apply that same logic to any law - lawbreakers will always break laws, those that follow the law will be restricted.  Put another way, is the presence of lawbreakers a good resaon to dispense with law?  "Why put locks on your house?  Someone that wants your stuff will just break in anyway, and you might lose your key and lock yourself out.  It's just not worth it!"

we should just follow the example of our government when trying to deal with piracy... or maybe we are, in ubi's case?  Tongue

p.s. as i said earlier, i like geezer and i hope he isn't taking this personally.  i also hope folks don't bash him for his beliefs...no matter how utterly bizarre they are!.   icon_wink
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 02:42:59 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2010, 06:41:36 PM »

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 02:54:20 AM

Hmm.. This still just doesn't bother me.  I have an always-on connection anyway, and I have other, better devices to entertain me in airports.  I mean, how often is the average gamer sitting on an airplane anyway?

I understand that it's irritating in concept, but in practice, a) I don't pirate games and b) I play PC games at home 99.5% of the time on a solid connection so c) I just won't get worked up over this. 



I travel quite a bit and do not always have reliable internet service where I am at.  That means most likely no games usning this can be played when I travel for work.  I also spend a lot of time at my family's place in the Mountains.  No interenet service there or in the forseeable future.  My aircard won't even work there.  I think it is shortsided to only look at how long is somebdoy on a plane as there are mutliple other places, times, instances when you just can't get online and yet still want to play a SINGLE player game.
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« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2010, 07:37:05 PM »

Quote from: morlac on February 24, 2010, 06:41:36 PM

Quote from: Geezer on February 23, 2010, 02:54:20 AM

Hmm.. This still just doesn't bother me.  I have an always-on connection anyway, and I have other, better devices to entertain me in airports.  I mean, how often is the average gamer sitting on an airplane anyway?

I understand that it's irritating in concept, but in practice, a) I don't pirate games and b) I play PC games at home 99.5% of the time on a solid connection so c) I just won't get worked up over this. 



I travel quite a bit and do not always have reliable internet service where I am at.  That means most likely no games usning this can be played when I travel for work.  I also spend a lot of time at my family's place in the Mountains.  No interenet service there or in the forseeable future.  My aircard won't even work there.  I think it is shortsided to only look at how long is somebdoy on a plane as there are mutliple other places, times, instances when you just can't get online and yet still want to play a SINGLE player game.

That's fair.  I suppose ultimately the way the market responds will dictate whether or not Ubi deems this a "success" or not.  I guess the bottom line is that it won't stop me, personally, from buying SH5, for example becausethe inconveniences wouldn't inconvenience me.

I would not, by the way, put this sort of protection on my products, in case anyone was wondering, because as a small (ok, tiny) company I can't afford one lost sale.  There may be a different metric for the UBIs of the world.
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« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2010, 08:50:04 PM »

I bought and thoroughly enjoyed SH3.  I skipped SH4 because I didn't want another game so similar, so soon.  I was very much planning on getting SH5 because it has been quite some time since I played a sub sim and it sounds fun.  However, I too will not be getting this game, solely based on the restrictive DRM (take my word for it, I would have bought it without the restrictive DRM, and probably still will if Ubisoft changes to a less draconian DRM scheme).

It is really a shame how much we talk online about DRM on games instead of the games themselves.
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« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2010, 11:32:08 PM »

Ubi hates the American Soldier!

 icon_twisted
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« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2010, 11:49:30 PM »

Quote from: Butterknife on February 24, 2010, 08:50:04 PM



It is really a shame how much we talk online about DRM on games instead of the games themselves.

In Soviet America, you play DRM!



(sorry, that was bloody awful)
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